How do songwriters *really* earn money (and which bands moonlight as cover bands)?; Spotify under investigation; Netflix K-Pop animation artists; and Ozzy Osbourne's chimpanzee art

0:07Steve:Hello and welcome to the Price of Music brought to you by Music Ally, the show that's fascinated by the fun and games and finances of the music world as explained each week by me, Steve Lamac and him, Stuart Dredge. This led us off into a voyage through the pros and cons of AI last week, but we're going to try it again anyway. Stuart, start us off with a big figure. give us your big number for this week okay it's a human number this week it's a human number the number is a thousand i mean that's not it's not the biggest i was expecting something more eye-watering than that all right we'll take it though why is the figure 1000 important this week

0:45Stuart:okay it's how many days ed sheeran's shape of you has been top of an apple music chart somewhere in the world wow um and this came out this came out it's a slightly weird stat because apple music has just turned 10 years old right and used that as a chance to kind of say celebrate and say wow look here's some numbers but not numbers you want which is like how many streams it done that would be kind of interesting yeah so they gave this one that's like you know it's done a thousand days but shape of you is the biggest the most streamed song over that first ten years of apple music he beat the weekend uh blinding lights and drakes god's plan to the top and it just made me think it's a moment of thinking right this is this is like the biggest streaming hit of this era probably shape of view these songs and maybe want to go digging for numbers elsewhere that apple didn't

1:29Steve:provide right so i've been i've been going down that rabbit hole this week so give us some numbers so do we know so shape of you it doesn't actually say how so how many streams has shape of you it

1:40Stuart:doesn't tell you not apple music didn't know they chose to give that stat instead but um other particles so i started on youtube which is always a good place to start a rabbit hole right um on youtube shape of use official video has 6.5 billion views um you see that's a big figure

1:57Steve:that is a big i should have chosen that one shouldn't i yeah that's less lesson notes big figures come in billions that is a big that is impressive all right okay and also that the song

2:09Stuart:came out in 2017 but 557 million of those views came in the last year which is kind of one of the points here about the biggest streaming hits is they really do carry on and on and it's actually the seventh biggest video ever on YouTube, which is where I'm going to turn Pub Quiz Boar again and ask you, can you guess any of the six YouTube videos that are bigger than Ed Sheeran's Shape of You? They're all music videos.

2:32Steve:Yeah. The problem with this is because you would naturally say, if you were from a certain era, something like Thriller, maybe. It's going to be a Michael Jackson or Bohemian Rhapsody. But I'm presuming, though, that probably the rest of them are far more contemporary, are they?

2:49Stuart:They are. There's one one for it, yeah. So in terms of traditional music stuff, there's Wiz Khalifa's See You Again, has 6.7 billion views. Despacito by Louis Fonsi, the big sort of Latin American hit, that's got 8.7 billion views. There's three nursery rhyme songs in the top six. There's a version of Wheels on the Bus that has 7.6 billion views on YouTube, which is a testament to how so many parents put YouTube on for their kids and then just on repeat and Wheels on the Bus. But the top one, and that theme is good. It's a very, very top music. I think you might know this deep down. Like, what's the most popular music song that children like on YouTube ever?

3:31Stuart:That children like? Yeah.

3:34Steve:No, I'm not going to get this.

3:35Stuart:Put me out of my misery. Baby Shark, 16 billion views. And that, listeners, is your earworm for the rest of the week, and I'm so sorry. Yes.

3:46Steve:You're welcome.

3:46Stuart:them yeah but then i looked on but then i went back to adult music and on spotify you can see their stats publicly and their shape of views got 4.45 billion streams on spotify and using this royalty calculators online from a company called manats that would be if all those streams are in the u.s that would be about 21.2 million dollars in royalties right um and all those streams weren't in the u.s it would be less than that but that gives you a sense of the scale of like one of the biggest hits of the streaming era you're talking kind of certainly more than 10 15 million dollars of royalties over its lifetime right and it's still going strong wow yeah well it turns out

4:23Steve:that a thousand was a pretty good figure to pick uh let's do our three big news stories of the week actual news stories starting with this a new report has been asking songwriters how they earn their money and what their plans are for the year ahead who's put the report together and who have

4:42Stuart:they've been talking to yeah so this is a company called media research we talked about a few times they often put reports out about the industry size and what's happening but this is the second year they've actually done a big survey of songwriters they talked to 776 songwriters of all levels like it was like an open response survey um so some of them are probably big songwriters but most of them i would say are kind of working you know low down the pyramid and yeah i suppose the two two key findings were one was that people saying they're struggling to earn a meaningful income which is obviously not a great thing um but it also found like that some of them are kind of leaving money that they should be earning so i think said 61 aren't signed up to mechanical rights collecting society which is one of the sort of base so like it's sort of found that people are saying that they were struggling to have money but a lot of them weren't signed up to a thing that could be bringing more money so that was one of its so that so the problem is is

5:35Steve:they they don't have the information or that no one's tutored them they've just they've picked up a guitar or whatever and they've made some songs but they they don't have the um the tools necessary in some cases because we should explain just for people who may be new to this um so royal royal collect royalty collecting uh collecting societies um will um chase the money that you are owed from things like radio play or live performances yeah and that's it and there's there's multiple

6:07Stuart:collecting site of different parts of the music and i think yeah people in industry assume that of course everyone who writes songs will be signed up to all the necessary things to get all the money due to them and this survey kind of found that actually maybe not we can't take that for granted and i think actually when you talk to collecting societies they they accept this too they spend quite a lot of time and thought into how can we make sure people know they should sign up and how they sign up um the other thing it found was that um there's a lot of songwriters who have signed up to it called some creator marketplaces it's places like fiverr with two r's on the end and sound better like places where you can go and say i'm a songwriter available for hire and people can come and hire you and basically i want to write some songs for me and those have apparently become popular and apparently people who songwriters using those are earning more money and having more music released than the average songwriter so this seems like quite a positive thing you know people could if you're a songwriter you could go and look at these places and see if they can bring in work for you so so it's literally just a place where

7:04Steve:what you what would you do post an example of your work somebody thinks yeah that's the sort of song i'd like to sing can you can you write me a song is that how it works well that's it so

7:16Stuart:sound better is quite a famous one where it's actually all kinds of works it's mastering and mixing engineers and songwriters and producers basically have their profile there and saying i I am available for work. And if you are looking to work with someone, you can go there. So those kind of places where I guess the lesson is you can get yourself out there on some of these online platforms to say, I am good and available. But then the other thing, the other thing I thought was interesting was, so this survey found out, I think, one in five songwriters say building their social media brand is a priority for them this year, which I guess the traditional, and this is maybe a stereotype, it's probably wrong, but you think of songwriters as being in there, like pure songwriters who don't also perform.

7:54Steve:you think of them as being in the background don't you they may be the artists have the public profile and the songwriter just writing the song but that's changing i think someone's saying i

8:02Stuart:need to have a profile people need to know who i am and i so that's that's happening but then most of them have quite a negative feeling about social media as well they're kind of like they're not they're not really happy doing it but they feel they should so that is i guess a lot of musicians may that may resound with them as well i think that's the thing like you know you should be doing these things and putting yourself out there but it does it can come with baggage and it can

8:23Steve:come with stress um yeah i think also i mean the the whole thing it's one of those having a presence on social media it's one of those things that people now say well you've got to have a presence on social media so people think well i'll spend a lot of time on social media then because that apparently is what you do it's just an assumed piece of wisdom now isn't it that um a big social media profile will help your career and that is probably true for quite a lot of people but at the same time just should it be the one thing you're concentrating on when there are other ways of maybe going around you know around the wall of anonymity to to success and it can feel like

9:08Stuart:pressure as well but that again this survey found that that songwriters who do post on social media who do make that thing they tend to earn more money and have more music release than the average songwriter which i mean that could be a function of those people are more active around their career so you know it might be it might be it's not social media necessarily making them more money it's the fact that they're doing everything quite thoughtfully but yeah it's but it was kind of it was a mix really it was it was it's saying that okay songwriters do a lot of songwriters do feel they're struggling and that's partly to do with things like streaming royalties it's not just that but it also said there are these opportunities you can go and get the money that's due to you if you sign up to the right collective societies and you can do stuff online to put yourself out there to get more work in.

9:47Stuart:So kind of, you know, encouragement as well as worrying.

9:49Steve:I mean, interestingly, there was another of this week's talking points which sort of spins off from this was that post by the band Field Music who were responding to a comment that they'd received about the fact that to subsidise their meagre earnings as an art pop band that members of the band are playing gigs as a Dawes tribute act. Did you see that story?

10:14Stuart:I did, yeah. And it's weird because Philby's got been aware for a while because I think at some point they followed me on Twitter. We followed each other back in the day. I was like, oh, and they seem very nice. But yeah, this kind of came out. I think they mentioned it just on their Facebook saying, we're doing these Dawes tribute band gigs. And I think a fan questioned it. And I think quite politely said, you know, why would you do this when you could be doing your own stuff? and they said basically yeah we need the money i think that the phrase they used was doing maybe one show a month as the doors we can fill a hole in our dire finances yeah i think there's sorry

10:49Steve:i think there's a really interesting point here that um a lot of fans uh music fans outside the music industry and i'm not having a pop at anyone at all but there are there are still i think there's loads loads of people and why would they know but that probably who don't recognize you know the financial dynamics of what it is actually like trying to survive as a musician these days you know there is an assumption so i mean even field music who you know they're they're well known in our field aren't they certainly you know around six music in the world i live in people know who field music are and they're they're pretty well known they're quite a well-established band you know and i think but i think then the assumption is so because they have a certain profile and we know who they are and they've had lots of records out that they must be doing okay whereas you know the reality is even as i say even a group like field music with a raft of albums and critical acclaim field music are very much living hands you know they have this hand mouth existence and and and they're not the only ones and in fact there'll be higher profile artists who are also in the same boat i mean i mean i won't name names but i know mercury prize nominees who are skint and are constantly thinking about where the next paycheck is coming from.

12:09Steve:So that's the point that comes out of this, I think.

12:12Stuart:Yeah, and I think Film Music, I mean, I went looking, they have 19 ,000 listeners on Spotify, and even when the other platforms work, you can't live off that money. But they talked in this post, they were very, very open. I think it's really good what they've done because they've said, we're not ashamed. And also they say, we love the doors. This is fun. We're not doing this grim-faced hating of the minute of it. you know we love we grew up on this music so but they talked about so they talked about two challenges so one they said we haven't got an indie dance floor hit and without that you can't do the heritage circuit which you may know more than me but it seems like you need at least the one big song to get onto those gigs at butlins i guess and get those festival slots yeah i mean

12:51Steve:three would be good wouldn't it three or um who's who's doing some gigs at the most somebody like hard fire hard fire yeah three three big hits and you know a welter of fans because i mean hard fire did five brixton academies back in the day yeah so yeah three three hits and a live following uh and yes you will you will now and it comes around in cycles doesn't it but it seems like we're going through the 20 year cycle at the moment if you know 20 years ago so yeah you can do that but you're right field music um are bereft of uh the big indie hit yeah and they

13:29Stuart:also said they don't they said they don't really fit into a playlistable genre right now and they were saying that was their words and and that's one of the things i think is is that some things do come back in into fashion or i mean i was reading about oh what's the band name is it lord huron so you say it oh yes who that is one of the songs off their albums has become one of the biggest streaming hits over time and no one quite knows why i think there was a single netflix thing in it but so i think for film is they're saying yeah look we don't have we're not on the heritage circuit we're not really getting placed on spotify and other services and so but we want to carry on going and i think that's that for me this thing is and this applies to egg bands around the world who have this position if doing a monthly gig as the doors keeps you solvent keeps your head above water so you can carry on making music i think i think fans will understand and appreciate that And it might actually be a, it might also be a nudge to fans to say, well, actually, well, I might support, I might buy a t-shirt.

14:22Stuart:I might, you know, find a way of Chuckie's music at them because I want, you want them to keep carrying on. So yeah, it's like, it's about being adaptable, doing what you need to, making it something fun. And yeah, like you say, so many musicians out there already, they're, they do it. Some, some people are teaching music, aren't they? Everyone's, everyone has got a side hustle or three, I think at this level of the industry. And, and that can be stressful, but I think it's also a testament to how resourceful bands are. Yeah,

14:48Steve:I mean, we should make the point as well that although the discussion has been around field music this week, they're not the only band who are doing this, who have alter egos that perform as a tribute. I mean, I know there's at least one band in Leeds, but I'm sure there's all over the country. But yeah, I was chatting to a promoter about a band in Leeds who are doing exactly the same thing. They play gigs as a tribute. act to then finance their art. And I suppose here's the question. I'm sure, you know, the original comment wasn't, you know, wasn't a real dig at field music. But, you know, what is playing gigs as a tribute act, is that any worse than having to work part-time as a barista or in a pub or whatever part-time job you can get to pay for the rehearsal room?

15:40Steve:Because I don't think it is. I also don't think we should expect artists to live off cold baked beans and mashed potato. You know, I'm not that purist. I mean, I might have been 30 years ago, to be fair, when Suede were living off mashed potato in a Camden flat before they made it. But, you know, the landscape is entirely different now. So, yeah, as you say, have to adapt. Big story number two, Spotify could pull out of Turkey. after the government launched an inquiry into its business. What is this about? Okay, there's layers to this.

16:21Stuart:So, yeah, the competition regulator in Turkey announced an investigation to Spotify, and they were saying stuff like it's to do with how it deals with rivals and some questions about how its royalties are given out and how it may give unfair treatment to some artists. It sounds like quite a serious competition inquiry saying you're doing bad stuff. But there is something else behind this, and that thing is golden toilets.

16:43Stuart:and not golden toilets at spotify headquarters i almost don't want to ask what what is a golden toilet okay this is a famous this is kind of a meme a criticism of the turkey's president and his wife so the theory is their mansion is so plush they have gold-plated toilet seats and this has become a thing that people who are opposition to the regime talk about it's become one of those things like people talk about emil de marcus's shoe collection in the philippines back in the day. And it's something that makes the government very cross. So people were creating, it turns out, playlists on Spotify called things like, so the president's called Erdogan, his wife's called Amin Erdogan.

17:24Stuart:And there's playlists called Songs Amin Erdogan Listened to When a Golden Faucet Broke. So basically playlists with artwork and titles poking fun at the president and his wife. And there was this long thunderous tweet from Turkey's deputy cultural minister saying, why Spotify isn't happening? It's disgusting. This is horrible. So you get the sense that, okay, there's all this tension around people being rude on Spotify about the authority there. And lo and behold, a competition inquiry ensues.

17:55Steve:Who knew that in Turkey, the height of satire would come in the title of a playlist? Don't they have a private eye over there? Is this where people are going?

18:09Stuart:Well, that is the thing. In countries where other forms of protest or media are restricted, you end up turning to whatever, you know, something like Spotify becomes a place. And it's weird because there's a long history in Turkey. And this is like, we're not, it's not our place to discuss Turkey's political environment. But there's been a long history of tensions with digital services. So YouTube's been banned there several times over stuff appearing on YouTube, like social media companies have had run into the government. So at the moment there's a big controversy over there's a left-wing folk band there who are anti the authorities and their music's been blocked on Spotify and other services so there is this big ongoing tension between freedom of expression and yeah golden toilets has become one of those one of the things that seems to have really kind of um seems to really get on the wick of the president and the authorities um so in spot but this is serious for Spotify because Turkey's a really rapidly growing market I think it nearly doubled last year in terms of its recorded music market and Turkish artists are doing really well on streaming.

19:06Stuart:And Spotify is actually making this point saying, look, we're paying out loads of money to Turkish artists. We're supporting their music. We're doing a good thing here. And there was a report in the Times which seemed to be based on, it said sort of sources at the company, and you're never sure whether that's just a leak or it's a deliberate briefing. But the gist was that Spotify is cooperating with this inquiry, but also thinking, well, are we going to have to pull out of Turkey? And sort of by making that public, we might pull out. you maybe hope to jog along the thought of not, you know. So, yeah, it's a funny thing, the golden loose thing, but someone like Spotify has become so big, I think, that in countries where there are tensions between digital services and the authorities, it's now finding itself in some of those arguments and it's figuring out what to do.