Live Nation loses in court; Strong Opinions On Geese (of course); Live royalty argy-bargy; and live music reform in the UK...

0:03Hello and welcome to the price of music brought to you by music ally the show that both looks at finances to the music industry whilst also bringing you stories and comments from the past week in the pop business he's Stuart Dredge I'm Steve Lamack let's start with a financial fact as always which you can use to amaze your friends or colleagues or passing musicians or fellow members of the music industry if you happen to work in the business Stuart's big number for this week is 739.1 million and this is I hope you haven't been put off me giving you big numbers relating to BTS the K-pop group after the recent episode where I said a big number it turned out to be completely wrong but this one is 100 % factually correct is it?

0:52Absolutely this is how many 739.1 million this is how many streams the new BTS album got in its first week alone wow which is according to Luminate, whose business is in counting streams, so they know how many. It's a kosher number. So it's 739.1 million streams in a week. In a week. And that is not the world record. It's the highest first week total since Taylor Swift last October. She did 1.3 billion streams in a week with her album. Right, okay, for context, yeah. But the other thing I thought was interesting, They broke down where these streams are coming from. So the US is BTS' biggest country for streams, no surprise, it's the biggest music market.

1:36But Brazil and Mexico are second and third. And if 10 years ago I'd said to you, do you know K-pop's really big in Latin America? You'd probably have looked at me and probably haven't gone, what's K-pop? But now this is it. So if you're BTS, you're thinking now, right, two of our three biggest markets are Brazil and Mexico. We'll do some big stadium gigs there. It's not just all about the US anymore. Yeah. Okay, here's three other stories that are worth mentioning this week. The first one is an ongoing story from the States where Live Nation have lost a major lawsuit which could see it forced to sell its Ticketmaster division.

2:15I say could. I emphasise could. Is that likely to happen? I mean, this is something we've been following for a while, this story, isn't it? You should explain the background, I guess, to this. Yeah, sure. Sure. Well, this goes back to 2024. So the US Department of Justice sued Live Nation, essentially saying it was an unlawful monopoly and it was making US music fans overpay for tickets. But that lawsuit also included 30 state and district attorneys, so individual states. And that's important because last month the trial began. And then a few days in, Live Nation reached a settlement with the Department of Justice.

2:50We said, okay, we're not going to see you anymore. They agreed to make some changes, didn't make any wrongdoing, but it settled. and that would normally be the end of the case. But the states carried on suing it. They didn't take part in that. So the trial carried on and now it wasn't the Department of Justice, it was the state attorneys. And now Live Nation's lost. So yeah, it was a jury in charge of this decision. A jury agreed that Live Nation's an illegal monopoly and it's been overcharging fans. Those are the two key things. Right. And now there is a judge of the case and the judge now has to decide what punishment it faces, which, like you said, could involve being forced to tell Ticketmaster, because that was one of the big things in the lawsuit was, is it too powerful owning the biggest ticketing company?

3:38So Live Nation, just to flesh it out, Live Nation are not just promoters, they also own venues and they own Ticketmaster, obviously a huge ticketing company as well. As you say, there was a meeting between Live Nation's boss, Michael Rapinoe and the DOJ, as you say, they came to some sort of agreement, which did include, I think Live Nation were committing to selling off a number of venues. As you say, they didn't admit any wrongdoing. They said, all right, we'll get rid of some venues. We'll make some adjustments to our business model, but essentially we'll sort of carry on. But now, yeah, do we know when the judge will make his judgment?

4:23well it's quite complicated really because um live nation had already filed some legal motions challenging aspects of this case and those have been put off until the jury made a decision so what happens now is these motions which relate to kind of things it disagrees with in the case will now get ruled on and that could affect the outcome and there was this quote from live nation saying the jury's verdict is not the last word on this matter which sounds good um and it could also appeal those rulings which doesn't like them so there's going to be basically more arguments a couple more rulings possibly appeals and then this long term decision of whether it could be fine it could have to sell ticket master but there's this other case that people have been talking about in relation to this which is a few years ago google got sued and it also came off on the wrong end of this lawsuit and there it could have been forced to sell chrome which is like its web browser business or android it's mobile business and for similar reasons like it's too powerful you owning these things.

5:20And it didn't have to in the end. It just made some changes and agreed to share more data with its rivals. And so people are sort of saying that might be the point to what happens here. It won't get forced to do that. It will be forced to kind of change some of the things that we complained about. And actually there's another quote in Live Nation's statement saying, we don't think the final outcome will be much different to our settlement with the DOJ. So Live Nation clearly thinks that this will end with not having to sell Ticketmaster, just making some changes to its business and correcting some of the things that people have been having a go at it about.

5:51But it's going to take a while. It's interesting, though, that with this judgment in the States, everyone around the world, wherever Live Nation operates, will be watching this really closely because whatever happens in the States, then the question is, will it then have a knock-on effect in other countries, including here in the UK? because, I mean, as we know, the Department of Business and Trade launched their inquiry, didn't they, just before Christmas, into how the live music industry works and whether there are any particular barriers to entry or expansion. Has one company got too much power?

6:29And without naming them, I think, you know, it would be probably a decent punt to basically say they're thinking of Live Nation holding maybe too much power. Yeah, well, like you say, if you own the venue, and you promote the gigs and you sell tickets there's things like okay so what if a venue wants to use different ticketing provider and do you then say well we're not bringing this big artist to your venue you know that's some of the things that we discussed in the States but yeah like you say I don't think legally it doesn't apply to the rest of the world but if rivals the rest of the world are thinking right well the US ruling went this way so now we're going to challenge them in the UK or Germany or France so it could spark a whole follow on or it could make a change in advance couldn't it I suppose it could try And I guess, you know, one of the questions will be if, you know, from this ruling in the States, does that, would that potentially embolden Department of Business and Trade over here to question Live Nation further about their practices in the UK?

7:29We don't know which we'll see. On top of this, there are a few disgruntled live music fans in our next story, which is the publication of the government's Culture, Media and Sport Committee's fan-led review into live music, which was published last week. You might remember this is the review, the fan-led review, which Lord Kevin Brennan came on this program to talk about as they were compiling it last year. because there was, you might remember, there was a widely reported fan-led survey of what football fans thought of their lot. Well, this has been live music's equivalent. It's actually into live and electronic music, this fan-led review, which canvassed fans around the UK.

8:17Somewhere around, I think, just over 4 ,000 fans responded to this about how they interact with music. It is the final report. It's very comprehensive. It's 100 pages long, although it's not a boring read. It's a really interesting read, and it does give you a lot of insight into what fans actually think about going to gigs and what's good and what's not so good. But yeah, you've read most of this, and it does make some interesting observations and one or two recommendations, doesn't it? It does. Good bedtime reading. But yeah, I mean, there's a really... I mean, Kevin Brennan, sorry, Lord Brennan, he's a good for a punchy quote, isn't he?

8:56I think his quotes are like, fans feel neglected and ripped off. And that was the gist of driving it. And yeah, I think it's 50 recommendations. And it's tough, like real details. So it's things like making gigs more accessible to people with disabilities, making earplugs of water more available, which reminded me of the My Bloody Valentine gig I went to where the stewards were like, here's some earplugs. And we were like, no, thanks. And they were like, no, you will have these earplugs. They're not going even up. But I guess the two headline makers, aren't they? One is the Music Fans Association.

9:25and the other is banning the resale of tickets above face value, which, I mean, I'm trying, you've been following this much closer than me, I think, but at one point the government was maybe going to put a cap on resale, wasn't there, but it would be higher. But did they then come out and say, actually, no, we might ban them for anything above resale? Yeah, I mean, I think the recommendation, which isn't, obviously hasn't, it hasn't been put before the House of Commons yet and that this is a bone of contention. now because although the idea of what we should do to cure this problem put money back in actual fans pockets is we will just cap resale at well nothing essentially you won't be able to sell tickets for more than the price that they cost in the first place.

10:15Do you think to music fans feels not that controversial? Yeah. You can't go, sell it to someone for the same price if you're buying it to sell at a profit you know i can't be weeping in tears for you not be able to do that yeah we were all prepared i think people in live music were prepared for a you know a cap of maybe 15 20 i mean as high as 20 there was a worry that it might be as high as 30 but whatever percentage it is still means that people can make money out of it if it had been around 20 30 percent that's still enough markup for um the touts to operate within and for the big websites to operate within to make themselves quite a healthy profit but um no anyway so we we're waiting now to see whether uh this recommendation whether the legislation goes before the house of comments so will it be in the king's speech come the autumn which we all hope it will be but it's not certain it will be and that is the thing isn't it for non-uk listeners i guess is that this is just a committee of politicians recommending what the government should do, but the government can choose to.

11:21As we remember the streaming economy report, and that made lots of recommendations also with Lord Brennan involved, and a lot of that didn't happen in legislation, but it did lead to other changes by the industry. So even if the government doesn't do it, it can still have an impact. This report is a great basis now for people to use as an argument to go back into government and to talk about and start a bigger debate, I think. What this does is it really endorses the voice of live music fans. That's what we needed was someone in and around government to actually put into a report, put into writing.

12:03We have done all the research for you, and this is what actual fans of music think. Even if you just want to skim through it, quite early on there's a bit in the report where it issues, it's like there's seven key points, seven sort of, well, loose categories of recommendation, which are celebration, you know, that live music is, it should be not just for money-making, but for the public good, is the quote. And then the other things are ticketing. You should treat fans with respect, give them transparency, and as you mentioned, rip-off practices. It talks about grassroots music, safety, accessibility.

12:43transport which I thought was interesting because there is a bit saying it would be a lot easier you could put on more gigs and more people would go which would be great as long as you're not standing waiting for a minicab because all the buses finished 10 minutes before the gigs ended so make live music a central part of transport policy is one of the lines in the report and then the final thing is just give the fans an ongoing voice. Listen to what the fans are saying and listen to them across all genres. As I say, it's a really comprehensive review and there's a lot in it. And if you'd like to know more, you can find the whole thing online.

13:33But well done to Lord Brennan and his team, including Sam Duckworth, who we've spoken to on this program as well before, who was pivotal to the whole exercise. It sounds like we're pivotal to the whole exercise. In a sense, it may be done. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's a really good report. I mean, I'm sure this fan-led review, I'm sure it would have gone down well with the Music Venue Trust because it is very supportive of grassroots music venues and gigs. However, someone the Music Venue Trust is less happy with this week, and not just this week is PRS there's an argument brewing in the UK between MVT and the Collecting Society PRS for Music and it's all about how royalties from concerts are collected and divided So there are two ways of people to get into this story you can listen to what we say now or you can go and read the 8600 words plus written in blog post by Mark David of the Music trust because he's really gone into detail on this but i can try and summarize shall i and then we can sort of get yeah give a surprise see so empiric music basics collects money from venues and pays songwriters if their songs have been performed at those venues and concerts as long as they're its members um and the music venue trust represents those venues the grassroots ones and it's been unhappy for quite a while now but how that money is collected and calculated and one of the reasons here is that it says many people playing these smaller venues they're unsigned artists playing their own songs and they may not be members of prs for music they may not have registered those songs which basically means that it collects a certain amount of money from the venues it doesn't doesn't change it just collects the money and as if every song played there is by one of its members and mv2 says it's not the case so there's a bit in this report says it reckons that between 20 and 34 percent of songs played at these venues are by PRS members and yet it collects money as if it was 100 percent of them and the the issue here that's kind of between 3.9 million and 4.8 million a year and um the MBT says well a lot of that money is now going to PRS music members not the people who actually wrote the songs that are played that's one of its core there's another bit where it's identified more than it's a great number six hundred and sixty £56 ,000 in discrepancies in what's being paid and collected, which sounds like a sort of number you make up to make someone sound like the devil, the number of the beast.

16:03But they've actually said, no, no, it's a genuine number we've calculated. Should talk about PRS for Music, they put a statement out saying essentially it's doing its best to collect accurate data on what songs are played to speed up its payments to make sure the money goes to the right people. And it kind of said it wants to work with all parties to improve these presses and make sure it's doing the right thing. So it didn't really go point by point in response to all these accusations. It more gave this more general statement saying, we're doing our best and we'd like to work with you to do better.

16:33One of the Music Venueshust arguments is that we've been saying this for a long time and no change has happened. So this is why this has kind of suddenly exploded, I guess, into a campaign. It's kind of frustration on their part that we haven't been able to get there. It's not a new niggle list, though. People have complained about this before because it's, what do they call it, the black box? Is it the black box? So money that is collected by PRS, it doesn't necessarily all go to, as you say, if you fail to send in your set list, you won't get paid. But instead, the money that's been collected will go to PRS members.

17:12And in a lot of cases, that's the big names at the top that are getting the money. And this was something which I think, wasn't it Dave Roundtree who threatened to sue PRS or take them to court at one point? Because he was making the point that money being collected wasn't going where it should go. It was going into this mysterious pot of money and then being shared out to some of the big stars who don't need your money. Yeah, he took them to the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal. And I guess that was actually thrown out in the end. So legal, legal note. but yeah I think it is this idea and a lot of this it's not it's not particularly hidden it's like if we collect money we don't know who to pay it to we don't just keep it we pay it out and yeah that's based on basically the market share of people so yeah the big so that was one of the things when he said it was like okay there's money that should go to grassroots songwriters that is not it's going to the biggest songwriters and that's it's how the system works rather than accusing PRS of any kind of particular chicanal, you know, trying to steal money.

18:16And to complicate this, though, the day after this was all announced, the Council of Music Makers put in, so this is the body that represents musicians and songwriters, and they weighed in saying, look, whatever happens with this, don't collect less money from live music, because that would harm songwriters, and that would harm musicians. You know, don't end up collecting less money. And then that in turn has led to a new reaction from Mark at the convention saying, look, this campaign is saying we're trying to pay less money to songwriters. That's not what this is about. It's about making it go in the right place.

18:47So it's kind of that typical UK industry thing of really intense arguments about some quite specific, very, very, very legal points. But when you boil it down, it's about the money that's collected. Who's it going to and are they the right people? And I think everyone is saying we want to get that right. But they are disagreeing about whether they're doing enough and what the best way of doing it is. yeah okay so that was a good summary very complicated legal argument everyone wants to do the right thing they just can't agree yet yeah and also i mean someone somewhere is going to have to put their hands in their pocket as well to to make it happen so who's who's going to pay for because isn't there i remember reading this going back to electronic music um there is a system isn't they're a piece of kit which um which records the sort of the records that are being played in a club and automatically forwards the details there's a company called or do that british actually done made this box yeah it's basically shazam for for this kind of thing i mean obviously live music is a challenge in itself because it's not recorded if it's yeah you couldn't use this for live music But for records made by dance artists being played in clubs, I mean, that seems like a solution.

20:05But only if all the clubs are kitted out with that gear. Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because it also comes down to humans. Like, if you're the promoter of a concert, you send your set list off. Don't forget to do that. If you're a young songwriter, there is an argument to say, well, why haven't you registered with PRS Musical or Collecting Society? there's money there for you if you do so that's something that PRS would say I think is like if people are playing music live and they're not registered with us well they should come and register with us and then we can pay them and that's part of this argument too yeah I mean it puts more it's more work for both the promoters and the musicians isn't it you've got to make sure I mean the promoter at the end of the night is not going to go around the right hand in your sheets hand in your set lists.

20:54Who wrote this song? Then I'll copy them down and send all the details off. I just think, you know, I mean, and also there are people who are just not aware that that's how you get paid. We've talked about something. We're young, young bands and young artists. Now this is part of the, part of the, the, the work to do, isn't it? Understand where you register and who and how, and agree your splits, agree who wrote the song and how much and get that all sorted so that when you do play live, if there's money, it comes back to you. So yeah, it's a really complicated tradition and I think there's obviously some beef niggle here between the trust and the PRS because of this long-running argument and so it's come out as they've now launched this campaign and I think it's cool but it's got a title it's like a real like we're going to go after them about this but really this will involve sitting down and hammering out how you make sure everyone gets paid who should get paid and the money is going in the right places any other business oh you had said stuart sent me sent me this um saying here's a question for you coldplay ed sheeran dua lipa arctic monkeys and calvin harris were the five most streamed british artists in the world in 2025 how many of them actually released a new album that year none one one one one is correct yeah okay just the one just the one ed sheeran which wasn't one of his bigger ones, you know, it was, yeah, this came from the BPI, like they had their annual yearbook and the headline for the announcement was kind of like, we did a survey and Brits feel greater national pride in music than film, TV, games, literature, theater and sports.

22:33And I sort of thought, you know, a bit of the TV industry body did a survey. It would show the opposite, that TV was the most loved thing, you know, but below that headline, there was this list of the most streamed artists last year. And yeah, like Coldplay, Dua Lipa, Arctic Monkeys, and David Harris, they didn't have an album out last year, but they were among the top five. And you've got Adele and Oasis and the Beatles and Elton John and Queen also in the top kind of 20, which is not a bad thing or like a gotcha or something like a look at how terrible things are. It just shows like what streaming's about.

23:05It's about catalog, isn't it? You can be Arctic Monkeys and you can, your last album came out in 2022, but you were the fourth most streamed British act in the world last year. That's what things are about. And that's what's driving a lot of the industry now is that you can come out and have a new artist with a new album and have a hit, but it's really about can you become a multi-album catalogue artist and do the big numbers over time. Yeah, and how hard it is to then break into that top echelon and how hard it is for new bands. Talking of which, I think it's probably worth mentioning this because it created quite a bit of copy over the past week, even if a lot of it is I mean it's probably bollocks Geese You should say that at the end of the story rather than before you introduced it Well Some of you will have seen this Geese who were one of the big breakthrough rock bands of last year Geese have come in for some accusations of being basically that they were just marketed to the top it's not a genuine fan phenomena but yeah it's all about the marketing tactics which help them that's that's what's been under the spotlight isn't it yeah i mean i was i was like who are geese right up to the point where they won a brit award this year which she says much more about me than it does about their kind of marketing strategy yeah um but they've been around for a while they've they've put they've put a bunch of albums out played live growing the audience that they've been paying their dues but then suddenly they're having these virtual bricks throwing them on the internet for being The word is psyops, which I had to go and look up.

24:46So I had a clue in my head what psyops is. Psyops is surely something from a Marvel comic. It does sound like it, yeah. Someone with eight legs. No, it's about military and government influence and misinformation and propaganda. Like psyops is what they would do when they would want to try and do something shady. And it's not something you generally think about in terms of rock bands with curly hair playing nice songs. So where this comes from is, there's this company called chaotic good, which to me is dungeons and dragons phrase, uh, to other nerds out there as well, but they're a music marketing agency and they work for geese.

25:20And they're like quite a lot of big artists. And they did this podcast where they talked about the secrets to song virality. It's a phrase that might make us both go. Um, and this phrase called trend simulation, which is where this all boils down to. And what it is, is trend simulation is essentially about it's making it seem like a song is trending on Tik TOK. So sort of making it seem like that to the point where the algorithm goes, oh, this song is trending. I'll show it to loads more people. And then it really is trending because people like it and start using it. So it's kind of a tactic that involves essentially getting loads of accounts posting about a song or a band until the algorithm picks up on it and then real people join the trend.

26:02Right. And it's been, I mean, this is not about one agency or one band. This is something that's been an open secret in music last year. you hear about burner accounts of, you know, pretending to be fans, posting about how great something is, and it's all part of a marketing scheme.

26:19But, well, let me try this argument on you, because I feel like you're the person who cut through the bullshit. There's this wave of articles saying, geese are an industry plant, which is a phrase I hate. It's never said by anyone who knows anything about the music industry actually works. But there's another wave of articles going, no, it's just marketing, deal with it. This is how it works nowadays. and that's what it boils down to like to give a good artist a chance to cut through you've got to basically game the algorithms on TikTok and streaming services until they do and it's almost like there's a necessity for good music is to do this stuff yeah well I mean that is true it's part of the game now you know marketing has always been a huge part of the music industry isn't it and it is part of the game but as you say it's not just one company It's not just one band.

27:07So there's two things here. Sometimes that won't work. Sometimes, despite managing to get your song into the algorithm in front of actual human beings, sometimes it won't work. If it's a shit song, no one's going to like it. Yeah, the band aren't any good. So that's one thing. The second thing is why pick on Geese? Why Geese? I think they're one of those bands that people have been just jonesing for a chance to kind of be rude about where they've become popular and people get cross but it's a no stop there that's exactly the point though isn't it that they've become that they've become popular and it doesn't matter in some people's eyes how long they've been at this it's the fact that they seem to disproportionately have become big in a reasonably you know short space of time I mean, their trajectory has happened over a short space of time, not they've been together for a short space of time.

28:08But, you know, all of a sudden, and it's like, well, I don't like that. You know, it's just, it's that classic, isn't it? Oh, look, this band has had an overnight, is an overnight success. Can't be because they've had a couple of breaks and people like their music. It must be the result of nefarious music business marketing strategy. I mean, really? What we, is that where we are? I mean, I'm not even, I don't mind, Keith. I'm not a huge fan of geese because the sort of music that geese make, I've done my time with that kind of music. I've been through that phase. But Fair Place and they are very popular.

28:43But also, it's not that they've given up on trad marketing either because every Wednesday I take my daughter to an acting class in Angel. Angel Tube, honestly, no word of a lie, six geese posters, old-fashioned geese posters on the tube and and i was thinking about this because here's here's another reason why why something like this gathers momentum if the geese record does slightly better than expected people will go hmm this record seems to be connecting also we have sold x amount of copies so we will reinvest some of the money we've made from that x amount of copies and do some more marketing this is what i mean it's 30 years ago but it's still i'm sure in a way still makes sense today when when we released the elastica album it did really well first week but we'd already made a commitment uh the label and the management that there would be as the sales reached you know reached a certain level we would then take a proportion of that money and do another wave of marketing and of course that next wave of marketing meant the record sold more which meant we could take more money and do a third wave of marketing so then each time each step of the way you are getting to a new audience and you're getting bigger and bigger and bigger and if geese have done a similar thing we will do x amount of um marketing and promotion for this record then and it's done all right then we'll do another wave and it gets to a certain level and we do it again and i mean similarly i think it's what island records did with last dinner party and eventually you see posters on the tube and you know they're doing more stuff because there was money to reinvest because the album were done all right and that it's just self-perpetuating a record doing well its success leads to more success do you see what I mean yeah yeah and it's kind of in one sense it's kind of it's kind of slightly refreshing although not at all to see the word industry plant being used for a band of blokes mostly blokes because generally it used to as sexist inside.

30:55It was like last dinner party got it, picture parlor got it. It was always like, oh, there's a band of women who've become popular. They must be an industry plant. That's some people's attitudes. And now at least it's some blokes getting the thing. But I mean, the other thing I had in my mind was like, if this is about just doing what you have to to get something, a chance to cut through, I feel like it just shines a spotlight on the industry's relationship with social media. And in a way, I feel like it's a problem the industry created for itself. So do you remember two years ago, there was this rash of stories of artists going, my label told me they won't release my new single until I make it go viral on TikTok.

31:31And that was back at those times when labels were going, yeah, it's got to go viral. Otherwise, there's no point in releasing it. And lo and behold, a couple of years later, there are companies that will help your song go viral on TikTok by any means necessary. I feel like almost the industry created this environment for itself. You know, and it's now reaping these results. But there was a good article, Consequence of Sound, wrote a response to the stuff about geese. And I want to read it out because it's good. I want to see what you think of it. Blaming geese for hiring a TikTok marketing firm is like blaming a cereal brand for paying for shelf space at eye level.

32:07Every supermarket charges for placement, and it means the brand with less money ends up on the bottom shelf. That's a legitimate problem, but the answer is to fix how shelves work, not accuse Cheerios of fraud. And I thought that was just a really interesting encapsulation of this is what the issue is, that if we're at a point where you have to manipulate TikTok's algorithm to give a band a chance to cut through, then that's the problem. It's not the band, it's the problem or the agency. It's the, this is how things work. And maybe we're not happy with that. And let's talk about that. I've just now in my head, I can't get over, I can't get past bands as brands of cereal.

32:47Oh, yeah. if geese are cheerios. So a compilation album is variety pack, I guess. Yeah. Anyway, let's move on. Who's the trio who's in that crackle and pump? There's nothing, that's a dead end. There's nothing down that alleyway. Can I leave you on a dysfunctional, like dystopian existential note here though? So these tactics are currently being used to make human bands like geese trend. What happens when someone starts using them to make AI music trend? like that's what's next and that's where the media's got a problem when someone is pumping AI music into TikTok's algorithm and human bands aren't even getting that chance to break through and then we'll have problems then Thanks for that Happy Wednesday everyone Thanks, let's get to the end finally Are you in the market for a Pink Panther S scrunchie or colour block bangle?

33:41Well, we've got some very good news for you, if so and it's about online shopping site Etsy. Yeah, have you used Etsy much? Like, should I explain that? I mean, I have used Etsy, yes. Is it fair to describe it, it's like eBay, but more focused on kind of craft and handmade stuff and nice things, isn't it, rather than... Yeah, my friend Tom's mum swears by it and all her knitwear that she sells on it. Yeah, it's the place where you go. If you're a creative person making stuff yourself, it's a great place. And it's a place often where you get a lot of fan-made merchandise. people making their own Taylor Swift things unofficial stuff but now they've launched this festival shop on the website it's with Pink Pantheress and Laufey and Willow Avalon so three artists and the idea was they teamed them up with some of the best makers on Etsy, some of the best knitters to make official stuff and so it's scrunchies it's crochet bags, it's bandanas the nice thing I thought was it's not just about making t-shirts, it's about making different things.