In short
The episode covers: (1) Suno’s AI music firm valuation rising to $5bn after a funding round, with claims that ~15% of raised funds could go to “data” licensing deals to train models and potentially settle label lawsuits. (2) “Blue Dot Fever” in live music: public seating maps show many big tours underperforming (e.g., Pussycat Dolls, Zayn Malik, Meghan Trainor, Jennifer Lopez, Post Malone, Jelly Roll), leading to cancellations/delays; Live Nation counters that <1% of its shows were cancelled. (3) Los Campesinos share North America tour costs: ~£99,738 revenue vs ~£101,828 expenses for 11 shows, with ~£88,600 from 2,266 T-shirts. (4) Sony Music Publishing buying Recognition Music Group (ex-Hypnosis) for $4bn+. (5) Youth Music: 37% of UK grassroots music projects at risk; Rescue the Roots aims for £2m. (6) Backstage IPA beer profits supporting FAC. (7) Ticket tout ban delayed; AI label Clankers with Attitude blocks humans until streaming release.
Guests
No named guests appear; discussion is led by hosts Stuart Dredge and Steve Lamac, plus references to writers/industry figures (Captain Joe Sparrow, Joe crunched numbers, Live Nation statement, David Martin of the Featured Artist Coalition).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOAI Music Valuation
0:45 to 2:40
Discussion around the valuation of AI music firm Suno and its implications.
“My big number is$5 billion, coming in strong.”
Blue Dot Fever Explained
2:40 to 4:00
Exploring the phenomenon of Blue Dot Fever in the live music scene.
“Here's an interesting one, because we cover the world of live music a lot on this podcast and the workings of the live industry.”
Tour Cancellations and Market Saturation
4:00 to 7:50
Examining the reasons behind recent tour cancellations and market dynamics.
“So you know they, I don't know if you know, they reformed recently.”
Insights from Los Campesinos' Tour Costs
7:50 to 10:00
Analysis of Los Campesinos' recent tour expenses and profits.
“And they said, of all the shows Live Nation has on the books this year, less than 1 % have been cancelled.”
The Reality of Touring Economics
10:00 to 13:00
A detailed look into the economics of touring and merchandise sales.
“By the way, Los Camposinos, we are very grateful to you because it's something, it's quite usually quite hard shoehorning figures like this out of, uh, out of people.”
Tour Economics: The Reality of Live Music
14:02 to 15:34
Explore the financial intricacies and challenges bands face on tour.
“So it's kind of a positive story in that sense.”
Sony Acquires Recognition Music Group
15:38 to 18:48
Discuss the implications of Sony's acquisition of Recognition Music Group.
“And they renamed it Recognition Music Group.”
Grassroots Music Projects in Crisis
18:52 to 21:04
Understand the challenges facing grassroots music initiatives in the UK.
“Yeah, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers sold their publishing rights to Hypnosis for$140 million in 2011.”
Supporting Artists Through Beer Sales
21:08 to 23:18
Discover how a new beer initiative aims to support artists financially.
“And youth music issues, it's kind of cool.”
Legislation Delays on Ticket Resales
23:19 to 28:00
Examine the political landscape surrounding ticket resale regulations.
Show all 12 chapters
Ticketing Reform Delay and Industry Concerns
28:00 to 29:59
Discussion on the delay of ticketing reform legislation and its implications for the music industry.
“which, reading between the lines, I wondered if that meant this is going to take more time than we thought, so it's not going to be in the King's speech next week.”
The Rise of AI-Generated Music and Its Impact
29:59 to 32:23
Exploration of an entirely AI-generated music group and the implications for the music industry.
“And finally this week, wait for it, Clankers with Attitude are an entirely AI group.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:03Steve:Hello and welcome to The Price of Music brought to you by Music Ally, the show that both looks at the finances of the music industry, while also bringing you stories and comments from the pop business in the past week. He's Stuart Dredge, I'm Steve Lamac. If you want a guide to what's going on in the music industry and how it all works, then here we are every week. Let's start with a financial fact which caught our eye this week. I mean, we sort of get numb to this because we so often see eye-watering financial figures in the music business, which will, without a shadow of a doubt, make you sit up and go, how, sorry, how much?
0:42Steve:But here's one which is a definite sign of the times. What's your big number this week, Stuart?
0:46Stu:My big number is$5 billion, coming in strong.
0:50Steve:$5 billion relates to what?
0:53Stu:This is how much, well, controversial, I should say, AI music firm Suno could be worth. and this is based on it's raising a funding round at the moment. And when you raise the amount of money, the investors value a company, how much is it worth? And they reckon it could be worth$5 billion, which is double its valuation just six months ago. So the last time it raised money, it was worth$2.45 billion. Now it's worth supposedly$5.
1:17Steve:I mean, this reminds me sort of the growth of Spotify in the early days as it went and found more money to fuel more expansion. it seems to be sort of along similar lines, I guess, this appetite to grow.
1:34Stu:Yeah, and this is based on a Billboard report. And they were reporting on what it's going to spend the money on. They haven't said how much it's raising, but it's probably hundreds of millions of dollars. And they reckon apparently 15 % of that has been earmarked to be spent on, and I'll do quote marks, data, which is the cuddly phrase used to refer to the actual music that Suno trains its model on. So that means, and actually producer Joe crunched these numbers while I was away last week. And if they raise$250 million again, like the last funding round, that can mean around$37.5 million to be spent on data, i.e.
2:11Stu:licensing deals with music labels. So I guess that's the thing. When they raise money, that increases the prospect of them being able to dangle more cash in front of the record labels who are still suing them to make those lawsuits go away and get licensed. So that could be when they close this round, which hasn't happened yet, that could be the next thing that happens. They sign a couple of deals because they'll have the money to kind of throw at people.
2:36Steve:Right. Okay, three other talking points from the past week. Here's an interesting one, because we cover the world of live music a lot on this podcast and the workings of the live industry. In fact, there's two or three live music-related topics this week, but this one in particular I think is worth discussing. This was actually prompted by a piece that our very own Captain Joe Sparrow wrote for Music Ally last week, which is about Blue Dot Fever. Explain Blue Dot Fever.
3:05Stu:It sounds something, sounds rum, doesn't it? Well, it's when actually quite, you know when you're booking seats in a venue, so like a big venue that's got seats for all selling. I think, this is Ticketmaster, I think, is it? The grey dots, the seats have been sold, so you can't get those. The blue dots are the ones still available. So if you're an artist and you've got a stadium gig and there are a lot of blue dots on Ticketmaster seating. Oh, yeah. That's bad news. Lots of empty seats. And it's now been coined as this phrase, Blue Dot Fever, to cover basically a whole bunch of big tours that have been cancelled or delayed or scaled down.
3:39Stu:They rarely say we aren't selling any tickets, so we're cancelling. There's a whole multiplicity of reasons that are given. Spend time with family, get the show right, work on new material. but these seating plans are public so people can see. And the thing, and I don't want to pick on one group in particular but one of the big spurs for this story were the Pussycat Dolls.
4:00Steve:Yeah.
4:00Stu:So you know they, I don't know if you know, they reformed recently. Well, three of them did. And this big comeback to was announced. I think Sky News rhymed down the figures and apparently there was, the opening night was an 11 ,000 capacity arena and they'd sold 4 ,000 seats.
4:15Steve:Right.
4:15Stu:To plan for that. There was another one that was 20 ,000 venue. They'd sold 1 ,500 tickets. So this was an example, and then the tour was called off, and the statement came out, didn't really try and avoid it. They were saying, yeah, we've got to cancel this. But there have been a bunch of different ones, and some of the artists in these stories are like Zayn Malik from One Direction, Meghan Trainor, Jennifer Lopez, Post Malone, Jelly Roll. They've all canceled tours or dates recently, even if the reasons weren't necessarily ticket sales, weren't given that, but people could see that they weren't selling well.
4:45Steve:Right. I don't know what's at the root of this, because I guess it could be all manner of reasons why this is happening. Are we saying this is happening more than usual, the fact that actually there are maybe too many tours out there or the tickets are too expensive at this particular point? I mean, also, when you talk about somebody like Zayn Malik, is there just certain genres? Is there just saturation in the market? And if you paid out for Harry Styles, You haven't got any money left for Zayn Malik or something like that.
5:19Stu:Yeah, and Niall Horan's often too as well.
5:23Steve:Or is it, you know, as we've pondered on this show in the past, are promoters getting just a bit too bold in their venue choices? Are artists miscalculating how many tickets they are worth and therefore they're booking venues that are just too big for them?
5:44Stu:Well, I think that's it. I mean, so some of these concerts have been comeback tours. So for example, Pussycat Toll's Jennifer Lopez, where I guess they must be the hardest to gauge, aren't they, if someone has been off for a while and come back. But I think you're right, the competition. I mean, as this was all happening, I got a press release about Olivia Rodrigo announcing a load more big gigs and selling out the ones you had already. BTS are selling out stadiums around the world. So I think this is it. There are some big, big shows that are selling out really quickly and are expensive. And then if you're up against them and you've kind of slightly misjudged it.
6:16Stu:Yeah, you're... And I think maybe what's happening is... So it's maybe happening a bit more, but I think what's also happening is the decision to cancel is also being bolder. I think it's becoming really, really quickly obvious this tour is a struggle. And maybe some of the other things we'll talk about, the cost of touring, everything that goes into it, mean that if you see it's going to be a disaster or underwhelming, maybe it is better to cancel early to try and press on and hope people will buy tickets in the run-up to it. So I think that's one thing that's changed, that people are making decisions to cancel more quickly and more firmly rather than saying, well, ticket sales will pick up closer to the actual dates, won't they?
6:55Steve:Yeah. I mean, this is just a much, much larger version of what we've been talking about, about buying tickets early. Because obviously this is happening at grassroots level where promoters are on very tiny margins. But then again, at this point, when you're at stadium arena level, then there's a lot of money involved that you're starting to lose. And that going back to the cost thing, you know, with somebody like Pussycat Dolls, you wonder how much the artists themselves have asked for, which will then dictate how many tickets you need to sell and what cost those tickets are going to be for the promoter and everyone for the promoter to be able to pay the artist and make their own money back.
7:37Steve:It's quite high risk, I guess, which is why maybe they are pulling the plug a little early.
7:43Stu:Yeah. I should say, actually, Joe wrote this story last week, and then Live Nation came back with a statement for us. And they're pushing back on this idea. And they said, of all the shows Live Nation has on the books this year, less than 1 % have been cancelled. That's not Blue Dot Fever. It's a normal touring year. So they're pushing back on this. Yeah, I did see that.
8:05Steve:They're basically saying, look, this is just the cut and thrust. just because somebody has noticed that some tours have been called off doesn't mean to say that this hasn't happened before because this has happened before. But I do think, I mean, I'm going to rather smugly refer listeners back to the very first show of the year where we were making some predictions for what was going to happen in 2026. And I did mention then about the bands overestimating their pulling power. And again, it was very much artists in the same area as Pussycat Dolls artists bands reforming it was those where i think maybe the promoters were getting a bit carried away at the time we used the example of the hives whose last uk tour included at least a couple of venues that had to be downsized and obviously they just overestimated how how popular they were or how many tickets they were going to sell so it's not it's not new exactly but it's worth certainly worth keeping an eye on this i think well also i think we might
9:06Stu:see some more of that. You know, we talked to Jimmy Tua recently about, was it En Vogue and Salt-N-Pepa and TLC going out on the road together?
9:12Steve:The package, the big package tours.
9:14Stu:Maybe we're going to see more of that. For example, what if Jennifer Lopez and the Pussycat Dolls did a tour together? Maybe that could fill those stadiums,
9:22Steve:those arenas.
9:22Stu:So I think maybe we might see a few more of those where people are going, right, we've got so-and-so coming back, so-and-so else is on the road. If we match them together, we think we can be much more confident of filling the arenas rather than having to cancel embarrassingly. Yeah.
9:35Steve:Talking of the cost of touring, actually, you may have already seen this, but our friends, the legendary indie band Los Campesinos have been dishing some data again. You remember that they came clean over how much money or how little money the band earned via streaming royalties. But this time they've broken down how much it costs to tour North America.
10:01Stu:yeah and this is really interesting and i and i think the interesting thing here is this was a successful tour they played like 11 concerts and they sold 99.2 percent of the tickets so they and that's they played to about just under 12 700 people so obviously it's a scale club gigs me about yeah but this was a good tour they filled rooms yeah um and they did this i mean this is it seems to be the habit of this saying look no one puts figures out there so we're going to. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We are.
10:29Steve:By the way, Los Camposinos, we are very grateful to you because it's something, it's quite usually quite hard shoehorning figures like this out of, uh, out of people. But this is, yeah, it's really, it is fascinating, isn't it? Because it shows you how much they earned and then how much everything cost.
10:45Stu:Yeah. So on the top line figures, they got after taxes and booking fees, they got just under a hundred thousand pounds, um, for the, for the
10:54Steve:tour which which just to stop you there which you think 100 000 pounds for 11 shows i mean that's that's not bad and you think that's quite a looks like a nice a nice figure and then then you go to the till receipt for all the costs all of a sudden that 100 000 pounds doesn't doesn't look so big
11:14Stu:yeah and i'll just do some of the highlights so visas cost them nearly five and a half grand um before they even got on the plane the play the flights cost just over 7 200 quid Basically, the band spent£14 ,500 before they even got to the US. Right. Now, this is my favourite cost, which sounds absurd, but then it makes sense. The tour bus cost just under£46 ,000 for this country.
11:38Steve:Right, so that's hiring one of those sleeper buses. It's a sleeper bus, yes. Yeah.
11:45Stu:They're not spending on hotels for a lot. They spent, I think, a couple of nights in a hotel, and the bus driver needs a hotel room because he needs a good sleep. but this is somewhere they can sleep. And there's seven of them in the band. There's a crew. And there's also a couple of their kids are along because you can't just leave the kids at home. So I think it's 12 people were sleeping on the bus. So that saved them on hotel fees elsewhere. Crew wages was£23 ,000. That's tour manager, roadie, merch seller. So yeah, they got paid. It was£99 ,738.05. And the expenses were£101 ,827.95. So they were about, what is it, one and a half grand down?
12:31Stu:No, more than that. Yeah, about two grand down on the tour. But there is a silver lining because they sold 2 ,266 T-shirts, which was around 88 ,600 quid of sales. So they made nearly as much from selling T-shirts as they did in fees for the tour.
12:50Steve:I mean that is I mean that's great the only part of that which I think would would faze me is having to find the money to make all those t-shirts in the first place the upfront cost of manufacturing all that merchandise I mean that would make me slightly nervous please buy a t-shirt no no please buy a t-shirt we've got 14 boxes of t-shirts left and if we don't sell these, we ain't getting home.
13:22Stu:Yeah, 38 ,408 quid, to be fair. So the end of it came up. They came out of this tour with an overall profit once Merch worked in. It was just over 38 ,200 quid, which between the seven band members is about£5 ,500 each. And they made two points in the post that I thought were really important. One was that a lot of this... Another point was we paid for a lot of this up front and then we got the money back. Another point was, well, that five and a half grand isn't, we're going to be investing that into what we do next in future projects. But they also said, we're not touring to make a massive profit.
Read the full transcript
13:58Stu:We're touring because we love touring and we want to go out and play to people. And we've managed to do it without making a big loss. So it's kind of a positive story in that sense. I think they managed to do this tour. All those fans saw them live and they had a great time. But they didn't make a load of money, even when you look at the big numbers for merchant fees. And yeah, it's a fascinating kind of insight, isn't it?
14:17Steve:to emphasize as well how uh how multi-talented you have to be not only do you have to write songs to be able to perform you also need to be a tour accountant you have to be good you've got to plan these tours uh you know in in terms of how much money it's going to cost you otherwise i can i imagine a band who haven't really haven't done the sums properly could walk away thousands of pounds down you've got to you've really got to keep an eye on where the money is going and how much everything is going to cost don't you yeah and i think the other thing is they i mean these
14:53Stu:were full rooms so i can only imagine the gigs were good good atmosphere yeah which i guess next time they go back maybe they can step up to like the next rung of venues up and the people who went yeah i saw them awesome they were great it was a really good night again so i think that's the other thing is i guess by doing this well by planning it well by not playing to half empty rooms, you are hopefully building that fan base for next time people bring a friend along. So it's all investment, but I think they said it's a, yeah, if anyone sort of I think, and I think this is what they said in the blog post, people often say, oh, you make your money on the road, don't you?
15:26Stu:You make it for merch. And it's a very good riposte to anyone who thinks that, don't worry about streaming royalties because you'll make all your money playing live. This kind of breaks down why it's not quite as rose-tinted as that.
15:38Steve:um third story of the week and this is well it was a developing story over the past few days uh where we've we've we hit sony music publishing uh is buying recognition music group uh and i thought i don't i don't i don't i don't recognize recognition music group who are they but it actually is a company that you might remember uh under another name but anyway sony are buying recognition for something like four billion uh us dollars and as part of this some very famous musicians rights are going to be changing hands as part of this deal they are they are so recognition
16:19Stu:music it's actually a company we talked about um a lot in the first days of the podcast it's um it's a company that owns music rights mainly publishing and it's a new name for a group of
16:28Steve:companies used to be called hypnosis oh it's those it's those companies them right which i mean if think about how many stories we did about that um yeah and none of them all of them complicated all of them left me with some sort of headache because they were all they were all different branches of the same almost the same thing well that's it yeah yeah and it's so you know just
16:47Stu:talk about who was who and who was buying who and who was worth what and so yeah but yeah so basically um this is um yeah group of companies and a few years ago hypnosis ran into financial trouble it got and it got kind of bought by a company called funds belonging to blackstone which is one of the biggest investment companies out there. And they have owned this. And they renamed it Recognition Music Group. It's been carrying on since then. So it's got around 45 ,000 songs and recordings. And this is among the people they've bought stuff of it. Red Hot Chili Peppers, Fleetwood Mac, your favorites, 50 Cent, Barry Manilow, Blondie, Leonard Cohen, Justin's Bieber and Timberlake, Shakira.
17:27Stu:So a lot of real heritage stuff. And then some new artists too.
17:31Steve:Yeah.
17:32Stu:And yet now Sony Music Publishing is buying that catalogue. And what's interesting is earlier in the year this was rumoured, or Sony Music might buy Recognition Music Group. And earlier in the year they said it would be more than$2 billion it would pay for it. But this week both Bloomberg and the Financial Times, who both know their onions, reckon the price is more than$4 billion. Really?
17:52Steve:I think at the time, weren't we saying, it's hard. We didn't know whether the valuation was a true valuation because I think there was a suggestion that when hypnosis were selling themselves off, are they really worth that? And I think you made the point that, well, I think the catalogs that they own will retain value if not increase in value. So it could be speculative that actually this can only grow. But it felt like a lot of money at the time. but it turns out maybe this was a good investment than if they're selling on so quickly.
18:34Stu:Yeah, well, I think they bought, Blackstone funds bought Hypnosis for, I think it was like$1.83 billion or something. But at the time, I think its portfolio of rights, the actual songs, were thought to be worth$2.2 billion. So it kind of got them at a bargain, and now they're worth$4 billion. So yeah. And the other thing is, it's quite the week for the Red Hot Chili Peppers because in a separate deal, Warner Music and its investment partner, Bain Capital, another big investment, they just bought their recordings catalogue for more than$300 million.
19:05Steve:Have they?
19:05Stu:Yeah, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers sold their publishing rights to Hypnosis for$140 million in 2011. So the Red Hot Chili Peppers' rights, publishing and photos, are worthwhile. I don't know what the publishing is worth nowadays, more, presumably. But, I mean, that's a lot of money to spend on socks and whatever else you spend on your Red Hot Chili Peppers.
19:23Steve:We all know what you think of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, which is something I shall take you up on later in the lock-in, I think, because you should move on. We've got quite a bit of any other business to deal with. Talk us through this. The British charity Youth Music has warned that 37 % of grassroots music projects in the UK are in danger of shutting down and are obviously asking for support. When we say grassroots music projects, This is stuff more aimed at young people. It's not just venues around the country. When you say projects, it's community things and it's a lot about learning and people coming together and opportunities for younger people to get into music.
20:11Stu:Exactly this, yeah. So youth groups, music clubs, schemes to help people in the industry. And it's kind of a good news story with bad news within it. So the good news is they have this Rescue the Roots campaign, which is trying to fund these projects. And they've raised a million quid so far, which Youth Music has said it's going to match with another million. So this is two million quid to go on these projects. And I think they mentioned a list like Sam Fender supported them, Georgia Smith, Bicet, Bastille. So a lot of artists chipped in. But also Spotify, Apple, and Sony Music, and other industry companies also backed this campaign.
20:41Stu:So they're getting support. But the bad news is the reason the roots need rescuing this campaign. Apparently, I think it's like 37 % of these projects have considered closing because they're financial pressures. And 67 % say they can't meet the demand. Like they've got too many young people wanting to take part and they can't help them all. So the kind of gist this announcement was, well, two million quid is good. We're going to help more of them stay open, help them expand. But it doesn't solve all those problems. And youth music issues, it's kind of cool. And I think it was particularly to people in the music industry, companies in the music industry saying, look, can you back our next phase of this?
21:16Stu:Because this stuff is important. Like the people who come through these projects will be the future stars that make you a lot of money. So yeah, back us now.
21:23Steve:uh we we we have talked about uh how integral alcohol sales are to keeping small venues open uh this is a slight twist on that there's now there's a new beer that's a specific beer that you can buy uh to support artists on tour uh tell us about that i know the music venue trust have a range of fight back lagers don't they fight back lager contributes um you know a percentage of all of its sales to the Music Venue Trust. But this is another new one now.
21:57Stu:Yeah, and yet another story that leaves us cider drinkers out, which I'm fairly, fairly proud of.
22:01Steve:Do you know what? I was going to moan about that, and then I had a look on the Fight Back site, and Fight Back now do cider. They have a cider.
22:09Stu:Yeah, they do have a cider.
22:10Steve:So don't worry. Give me a month, and we'll have saved the entire grassroots. Yeah. Don't be swimming in money. But yeah, there's another one coming along.
22:21Stu:Yeah, and this is a good thing. So it's a partnership between the Featured Artist Coalition here in the UK, we've had on the show before, and Signature Brew, it's a brewery, and then an amplifier brand called Orange Amplification. And yeah, the beer is called Backstage IPA. I think you can get it online, but the idea is it's been sold in independent music venues. And then Profits of Red Pipe will go to the FAC to help with things like its UK artist touring band. So yeah, so if you get fired, I'm going to quote the press release here because I love reading about how people describe alcohol. It's a bold and punchy modern IPA stacked with passion fruit, tangerines and berries with pine and crisp citrus notes.
23:00Stu:Which to me sounds like, I don't know, maybe as a side drink I'd like that. They've mentioned enough fruit to make it, bring it into my wheelhouse. But buy a pint of that and you're helping balance the tour. And I think there's going to be a promotional campaign in grassroots venues this summer. So if you're somewhere, you may then see this being promoted. yeah I don't know will it be competing with the music venue like is there a beer battle here
23:22Steve:no I don't well what venues are artists yeah I think there's plenty enough venues to go around for everybody but yeah they yeah they manufactured the beer I think they were really um I bumped into uh David Martin from uh the FAC um last week well at the live we had a board meeting of live the live music trade body and um he was oh you know delighted because here's you know here's a company have gone we've got an idea and we'll make you a beer and we'll give you some money and i thought it was you know yeah it was just it's not often organizations have people approach them i think it's you know provided some respite from always thinking where can we get funding from to help artists uh help artists get out on tour and stuff but i think there's signature brew i think they do two different sorts of beers don't they and there's one which is as you say punchier than the other and I think this one is is more like a roadie beer um but it's yeah but I think well well played well played signature brew well done yeah the press release you said that roadie beer
24:27Stu:I think I think the passion fruit tangerines and berries maybe is the better selling point
24:30Steve:I'll tell you one thing it's uh the uh uh this next story came came up once again which we touched on last week but can you imagine the response of the board members of the life uh the organization live or you know all very much involved in live music promoters agents people who run venues uh people who look after artists uh managers there do you think anyone was in you know had any sympathy for the for the government for possibly delaying the ban on ticket touts or at least the ban on the resale of tickets above a certain level do you think anyone around that table was you know was laissez-faire well you know never mind well trying their best least it's least it might happen next year um there have been so this is um the the story uh as i say which we covered last week uh this is the rumor which by now um because we're recording this on tuesday lunchtime the king's speech which will contain all the bills all the proposals that um the government are going to put into the comments in the next session.
25:41Steve:That's being announced probably as you listen to this on Wednesday. So we'll definitely know by then whether this is in the list of topics to be debated. But it was announced last year that the government wanted to crap down on the resale of tickets by basically saying, no, you can only resale tickets at essentially face value. And that, you know, should, they were saying, that should help wipe out the practice of exploiting fans by selling tickets at ludicrous prices. Anyway, so it turns out that that piece of potential legislation we don't think is going to be in the King's speech, in the list, as I say, tomorrow as we record this, today as you listen to it.
26:34Steve:and I mean, it's not news which has gone down well, is it?
26:38Stu:It hasn't, no. Every music industry probably came out last week. I think you may have talked about some of them last week, but the OMF, Live, UK Music, Fanfare Alliance, all basically saying we feel let down. You know, you promised this and you made all these words about it and then you haven't. Well, it seems like you're not going to do it. And again, these are just reports that it might be delayed for a year. No one knows until tomorrow as we talk today or possibly in parts of you are listening to this. And if it's not in the King's speech, that means it's not happening for another year or so.
27:07Stu:But the weird thing is, I mean, this is something I never speak. So the Prime Minister, Keir Starmer, who is currently, and for readers outside the UK, he's kind of battling for his political life this week. There's a talk of a challenge to his leadership and all this stuff. But he found the time to write a letter to fans, to music fans, shared exclusively on NME. So Prime Minister Keir Starmer has written to the NME and had it published.
27:32Steve:I should have seen this and I haven't seen this. What was he saying in his open letter to fans via the NME?
27:41Stu:Well, he was basically saying, don't give up on us. We're still doing this. He said, we will crack down on ruthless ticket touts, paying on music fans. He said, we'll make progress on the legislation to protect fans and create a policy that will stand the test of time. This is the first step to stamping touts out for good, which, reading between the lines, I wondered if that meant this is going to take more time than we thought, so it's not going to be in the King's speech next week. But we are still doing it, and that's why. Which I don't think is going to really go down that well with the industry, like you say, even if they are saying they're committed.
28:17Stu:I mean, they're saying that they definitely want to do it. They're not retreating from the policy itself.
28:23Steve:No.
28:24Stu:And it seems to be a combination of other stuff that they want to do instead, maybe.
28:28Steve:Yeah, but there's two issues here. One, obviously, is that the bill won't be discussed in Parliament until at least next year. And then you've got, obviously, the legislation will have to be rubber-stamped and so it doesn't become law for possibly two years. But the other thing is, I think the worry around the industry is that the delay could even lead to some sort of watering down of the proposals because the arguments will start all over again, won't they, as sites that specialise in reselling tickets at a profit will start lobbying all over again, won't they? Because there's now this gap before we see it discussed in Parliament.
29:06Steve:And that's all most, politely I will say that it's most unsatisfactory.
29:11Stu:Well also, and I could do the politics bit sometimes, can't I? So as I said, Keir Starmer is facing a leadership challenge. He may not be the Prime Minister in a couple of months. If there's a new Prime Minister, who knows what happens then? But equally, it's not entirely impossible there could be a general election next year if things went badly for the current government. And then everything is thrown up. Bills that haven't been done don't get done. There might be a new government coming in and we don't know what they think about ticketing reform. So there is that idea of a year's delay, but trust us, relies on the government still being in place next year to do that.
29:49Stu:So I think a lot of people are probably looking at this going, we don't feel very comfortable with this. We don't want this to be kicked into the long grass based on other things going on. So we'll see.
29:59Steve:And finally this week, wait for it, Clankers with Attitude are an entirely AI group. They release, well, entirely AI-generated music on a record label that is, yes, entirely run by AIs. But if you want to listen to their new album, you have to be an AI too.
30:22Stu:Do you think we've reached, this is the kind of, this is the climax we've been waiting for.
30:27Steve:Yeah, this is the point where the whole podcast just gets absorbed into a black hole.
30:34Stu:Yeah, well, the AIs all listen to a different podcast, industry people from AI. But yeah, I mean, this is kind of quite funny. I mean, Clankers with Attitude are quite like a name. They've got an album called Straight Outer Crompton.
30:46Steve:Right.
30:46Stu:It's a reference to a famous inventor with a surname Crompton. But I see what they've done there, obviously.
30:51Steve:Yeah.
30:52Stu:And they put this album out on the website. And if you go there and you're not an AI agent, if you're a human, It basically tells you to F off. Really? At least until this Friday, 15th of May, when they're going to release it on streaming services. So it's kind of a marketing wheeze. Right, I see. Right, okay. But it does highlight, I mean, to me, there's this weird world, and I'm still getting to grips with it, but this world of where the next phase of AI is all about these agents. And it's basically you have a little AI that goes off and does stuff for you. It might book flights for you. It might co-ordinate your diary.
31:23Stu:It might do... And there's going to be this world where all these AI agents are talking to each other. So my ticket-buying AI agent might talk to Ticketmaster's agent to book me tickets and so on.
31:34Steve:Right.
31:35Stu:And so there's going to be this world where, like, AIs are interacting with each other with no humans involved. So I guess why wouldn't they make music for each other and listen to it? You know, it's kind of like a logical conclusion of all this, but I don't know where it leads us.
31:48Steve:And does your AI agent, do they have to have five weeks off? Do they all go off on holiday, these AI agents?
31:54Stu:And you suddenly have to do everything for five weeks that they've been doing for you and you're in trouble. But I mean, this is kind of a marketing wheeze. We're going to see more of those. But it's, I don't know. This idea of label entirely run by AIs isn't that far-fetched. We talked about one recently, I think, didn't we? Yeah. So it's kind of a proof of concept that's not silly. And in some ways, it's kind of spooking people in the industry thinking, will I have a job in two years' time? Yeah.
32:25Steve:And on that bombshell, that's it from us for this week. Thank you very much for listening. If you are enjoying the show, please do spread the word. You can support us as well via Patreon by signing up to become a super fan, which also gets you access to our weekly lock-in, where you get to stay behind after hours for an extra 15, 20 minutes of bonus material. you can gain access to that by becoming a superfan at patreon.com slash the price of music alternatively if you'd like to get in touch with us about well anything we discussed today or on recent programs or you have any questions about how the music industry works anything behind the scenes or the mechanics of the music business that you'd like explained we shall do our best for you drop us a line with your questions the price of music podcast at gmail.com it's the price of music podcast at gmail.com until next week cheerio goodbye
From the publisher
Your easy weekly guide to the music biz and how it all works. Become a Superfan of the podcast for free – and enjoy the exclusive weekly Lock-in bonus section!
This week... Stu's back from his travels and joins Steve to discuss beer, AI music, and Los Campesinos!:
→ $5bn is how much controversial AI-music firm Suno could be valued at – and it might raising $250... so what is it going to do with that money?
→ The phrase of the week is ‘Blue Dot Fever’, and it’s all about big tours being cancelled or delayed due to reportedly-poor ticket sales…
→ While we’re on live music, indie band Los Campesinos! have explained exactly just how much it costs to tour North America…
→ Sony Music Publishing is spending $4 billion for a company that owns a lot of songs: Recognition Music Group. And some very famous musicians’ rights are changing hands as part of the deal…
→ British charity Youth Music has warned that 37% of grassroots music projects in the UK are in danger of shutting down. But what can you do about that?
→ We’ve talked about how sales of alcohol can be crucial to the grassroots circuit. Now there’s a specific beer that’s been made to support artists on tour…
→ We talked last week about the possible delay to the UK’s ticket-touting ban. Now an update: industry bodies have been weighing in with their disappointment…
→ Clankers With Attitude are an entirely AI group, releasing entirely AI-generated music on a label that is entirely run by, yes, AIs. And if you want to listen to their new album, you have to be an AI too…
And in the special post-show lock-in section just for our Patreon Superfans, Steve and Stu prop themselves at the bar – and Steve's getting the first round in – as they discuss this week's bonus material:
→ More on the "Blue Dot" tickets story – why are some artists selling a lot of tickets, and others... not so much? And: is Suno really worth $5bn?
→ With the Red Hot Chilli Peppers’ recordings catalogue being sold for $300m, does this blow Stuart’s ‘the worst band in the world’ theory out of the water? And what happens to the value of a band or artist's songs if they go out of fashion?
→ Metal band Zao have been flagged as releasing AI-generated music. The only problem? It wasn’t, and they aren’t happy about the mistake…
→ Stu has heard the first release by Little Grandad at last!
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As ever, we welcome your feedback, emails and – in particular – any questions you might have about how the music biz works!
Email us: thepriceofmusicpodcast@gmail.com
See you next week!
Steve and Stuart
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