Oasis are back; The AI-generated band with a million listeners; Indies vs Universal Music spat gets grumpy; and who owns your songs if your label goes bust?

21:25Stuart:So yeah, in the chart of Oasis songs on the airwaves, It's very much the early stuff dominates the list.

21:33Steve:As was the set, actually, as it goes, looking at that set list. Right, big story number two. Now, this is proper industry-related, this, and it's something we have covered before. Themes, though, are getting distinctly tetchy in the arguments surrounding whether Universal Music Group should be allowed to buy the independent music company, Downtown Music. can you explain to in layman's terms what's been happening, why it's important and why both sides are getting quite hot under the collar about it now?

22:10Stuart:Yeah, sure. So to recap, I mean, Downtown Music might not be a familiar name to everyone who are just music fans, but it's one of the biggest independent companies out there. It owns a publisher, so it signs songwriters, but it also owns CD Baby, who distribute music. They're one of the things that independent artists use to put the music out. It's got a division called Song Trust that collects royalties for publishers and songwriters. It's got a company called Curve that has software for processing royalties. It's used by a lot of people. So it's got its fingers in a lot of different pies in independent music.

22:39Stuart:And as a marker of how big it is, Universal Music has agreed to buy it for$775 million. And this was announced kind of last year. And what's been happening since it was announced, a lot of independent music bodies and labels have been protesting and saying this would be a really bad idea. It would make Universal Music already the biggest major label. too powerful. And so there's been a succession of open letters and guest columns for media outlets. And essentially, the arguments here are, if you let Universal buy this company, it will be bigger and it can go to streaming services and say, look, we're bigger and we want you to do this and this and that.

23:18Stuart:They have more leverage to kind of push streaming services around in a way that might not benefit independent artists and labels. They also say it has access to lots of data from the independent world. So this is quite important to this. So Downtown Music, like I said, it has a division that deals with royalties, has divisions that collect royalties. It would get a lot of information on how much money independent music is making and how many streams it's getting. And their argument is, well, imagine what you could do with this if you were being a bit nefarious. You could maybe see when an artist was worth poaching because they're doing well, or you could see when a label's doing well and make them an offer to buy them.

23:54Stuart:So a lot of the arguments are, if this deal goes through, Universal Music might do these things that are bad. It's very much kind of ifs and buts.

24:02Steve:Right.

24:03Stuart:And those arguments have been targeted mainly at regulators, so people who have to say, yes, this deal can go through, give it the green light. So that's the European Commission in Europe. And last month, the European Commission said, yes, we are actually going to investigate this deal. We're going to have a look at it. And that's when things have got quite hot under the colour. So, yeah, I think last week the fight back began. There were kind of two things. So a guy called Kenny Gates, do you know Piaz, the independent label group?

24:30Steve:Yes.

24:30Stuart:They were bought by Universal last year. But Kenny Gates, the co-founder, he wrote this column for Music Business by Wild. And he kind of came out swinging and said, look, there is lots of competition still. This isn't going to hurt indies as much as other things are. And he sort of said things like AI and short video isn't making enough money. Big investment companies are buying rights. He said these are the problems to focus on. you shouldn't be thinking about majors versus indies as like that posing thing so he was quite punchy in his view and then virgin music group which again to people like oh yeah it's a label virgin music group is the bit of universal music group that deals with independent artists and labels so it's their kind of division that kind of deals with that side and if it buys downtown music it would be part of virgin music group um and the co-founders came out with this memo they sent internally that was quickly leaked to journalists.

25:21Stuart:And again, they were saying, this is all lies. It's just bad faith. We're not going to use data to do anti-competitive things. It's not too big and powerful. We care about the indie community. And they sort of, you should phrase, juvenile offensive and just falsehoods. So they're really kind of saying, we're really cross about people assuming we're going to do terrible things if we buy this company. So it's got quite heated in public. And it's kind of, yeah, it feels like a big moment because I think we've talked about this, haven't we, in the last year, this idea about there are these arguments about, okay, what's happening with independent music?

25:59Stuart:Companies are getting bought up by majors. Independent music is quite a big business for major labels now. They have these arms that do distribution. And there's a lot of worry. And this is going to be the case that is kind of the moment where people are saying, right, is the regulator going to say, no, you can't do this universal music group? or are they going to wave it through? And so that's what the arguments are preparing for, that decision.

26:22Steve:The people who are opposed to the takeover, who are trying to preserve the status of major independents or independent groups, who's that? I did notice even just before we came to record this episode that there was a joint letter from a collection of people from major independent record labels, including Beggars Group, which obviously includes Rough Trade and 4AD, strictly the American label. People like that are standing fast, though, in defiance of the takeover. Is that right?

27:09Stuart:They are. Actually, Martin Mills, the founder of Beggars Group, he gave this quote a few months ago talking about, I think he was saying they're saying they're going to be really good to independent artists but he was like beware there's a wolf behind that cape and that was quoted in this memo from Virgin Music when they were really cross about this saying we're not wolves I kind of in a way the awkward thing here I think is that the people who work within major labels on the independent side of their business, the people who work with independent labels and artists so people like Virgin Music Group, The Orchard at Sony is another example, it's a famous distributor but no it's those people they see themselves as being part of the independent music industry and they see themselves as working really hard for independent artists and so i do understand actually why they would be upset and feel under attack at kind of being said you're your people major labels and you're going to do bad things and undercut the community so i do get the i do get the kind of the the personal hurt here yeah um but i think yeah it's it's it's also about trust like you say I think a lot of the defense of this deal is we won't do those bad things you say we will.

28:14Stuart:We promise we're not going to do those things. And if you step back from picking a side, that's what regulation of big acquisitions are all about. It's like saying, well, actually, if people don't trust you do that, how can we make sure you stick to your word? Do we need to have certain safeguards in place? One thing in other deals they've done is they've made them sell off bits. So for example, in this thing, they could say to the university, you can buy them downtown music, but you have to sell off this bit that works with independence and that bit to make sure that they still have options and that you're using data.

28:46So I think that's what it's going to come down to is the promises on one side saying, you're saying we're going to do this and that, but we're not.

28:54Stuart:And then the regulators say, okay, well, how can we make sure of that? But it could go any way. it could be blocked, it could be allowed through with certain restrictions or certain divestitures, I think is the word, where you have to sell bits off, or it could be waved through. And whatever happens, based on the last few weeks, it's going to be quite a tense moment because everyone has been so cross about it before the season has been made. So, yeah, when we know what they've decided, the arguments could break out even more.

29:25Steve:Our third key story of the week, American band Dear Hoof are quitting Spotify in protest and its CEO leading a 600 million euro funding round for a military drones manufacturer. Tell us more about this.

29:43Stuart:Yeah, so, I mean, Dear Hoof, I mean, I'm sure you must know them. But they've been around, I think they're about 19 albums in. They're like a very longstanding indie rock band. And, yeah, they came up with this social media, so, yeah, we're leaving Spotify. and the story starts with this company called Helsing, which is a defense technology company based in Germany and they make military drones, they make AI defense software and they've got this policy of they only sell that tech to, and the phrase is sovereign democracies, which basically means we don't sell our stuff to dictators. It's not the get out clause it may seem because sovereign democracies do some bad things with weapons as well.

30:21Stuart:So, you know, it's a bit hedging around the book. But yeah, and Spotify's boss, Daniel Leck, He has an investment fund. And actually, this is not a news story. Back in 2021, he led a funding round for Helsing and he joined its board. So he's been involved with this company for a while. But then recently, he led a new round of€600 million for the company. He became his chairman. And this was reported. And obviously, in the tech and investment perspective, like, wow, Spotify CEO is investing this big round into Helsing. This is an exciting news for the defense industry. But then when the news got back to music, it's obviously caused some different feelings.

30:55Stuart:And yeah, Dooh basically said this post saying, we don't want our music killing people. We don't want our success being tied to AI battle tech. And they went on to give Spotify both powers and say, look, it's an already widely hated data mining scam masquerading as a music company. So there's a bit of bite here. They're not fans. But this is based on the fact that Daniel, like other Spotify execs, he's made a lot of money from selling shares in Spotify that he owned. And what he's doing with that money is investing it. He's got a big investment in a health startup as well. One of the things where you can go and get your body scanned and check for health.

31:27Stuart:And that hasn't really caused a controversy. No one's worried about that. But this company, Helsing, it has made musicians. And the thing here is, I mean, I really like Dear Hoof. I've liked it for a while. They've got less than 110 ,000 listens on Spotify, which kind of cuts both ways. So for them, and they said this, we're not going to lose a lot of money. We make a lot of money from playing live anyway. so it's not going to it's not really a thing that's going to drastically hurt them equally it's not this sudden uppercut to spotify that's going to make it make make him pull out this investment or it change you know it's not yet spread to bigger artists who spotify be more worried about losing but talking to people people said to me watch this story because do you remember last year we talked about music festivals that had sponsorship from companies linked to the arms industry yeah like i think it was south by southwest got some heat um the great escape got some heat like this has proven to be quite a quite a heated issue for the artists feel strongly about and so i do wonder if more are going to see this deer hoof story and be considering their own things or or at least speaking out and saying we don't like this but it's hard to see anything changing because it's his personal investment fund he can invest it where he wants and you know Presumably he will be fronting up to the critics.

32:42Steve:That's your top news stories for this week. Any other business before we go? Oh, you've got, you wanted to mention a Sabrina Carpenter tour, financial tour fact.

32:54Stuart:Yeah, well, also, did you see she got Simon Le Bon out for a concert this weekend in London?

32:59Steve:You make it sound like Simon Le Bon is in a cupboard or in a flight case. She got Simon Le Bon out. She just opened up this. She opened up the flight case and guess who was in there? Simon Le Bon. She got Simon Le Bon out.

33:13Stuart:They did Hungry Like the Wolf, which was released a full 17 years before she was born, which I thought was quite...

33:18Steve:What is going on? You've got Olivia Rodrigo at Glastonbury hauling on Robert Smith to do Cure cover versions. I know. Took Robert Smith out of a box. Come on, Robert.

33:33Stuart:Imagine if you got the Simon Le Bon box, who you thought was that. It was actually the Robert Smith box.

33:39Steve:Yeah, I've got my AC's pop stars mixed up. That's not the stat. What was it? It's a donation from tickets, I think.

33:47Stuart:Yes. So she, a year ago, Sabrina started working with this non-profit organization called Plus One in the States. And it basically, it helps artists raise money for the causes they care about. So in her case, I think it's a dollar from every ticket told to her concerts in the US and Europe was kind of rooted into this fund. and then his fund makes donations to charities in it's three things mental health animal welfare and lgbtq plus rights and this is a trend like um so sabrina carpenter has her fund um actually olivia rodrigo you mentioned she's got a thing called fund for good and she donates to charities for women and girls uh like reproductive health freedom that sort of thing um and the reason i think it's so yeah so sabrina carpenter's fund has raised a million dollars in a year one of the fastest funds of its type to do this.

34:34Stuart:But why I think it's interesting is it's not just like artists doing good work for charity. It's kind of, it's a political statement in a way, especially in the US right now, like raising money and donating to causes around LGBTQ plus rights and reproductive health. Those aren't things necessarily looked upon fondly by the current people in power in the US. So if anyone's ever snobby about these big pop artists, It's something I point to say, look, they're actually sticking their necks out quite a bit here by saying, I care about these causes. I'm going to raise money for them. And they're under attack.

35:08Stuart:And then the other thing this month we've seen is a lot of artists in the US, big pop artists speaking out about immigration policies and raids there. So there's this kind of climate of the artists who almost have most to lose because of the big pop artists playing big, big stadium gigs. They are actually saying, no, we're going to put our money where our mouth is and we're going to support things we care about. So, yeah, good on her.

35:28Steve:Can I just fire you a question which occurred to me the other day? And by the way, listeners, this is where we will be answering your industry questions or inquiries. If you're a musician, maybe looking for advice or anyone who's listening, who's always had a question about how the industry works and never known the answer. If there's anything you'd like us to try and get to grips with, the email address for your questions is coming up. but it's something I, if a record label, right, this came to me because I was actually thinking about football teams going bust, but then it suddenly occurred to me, if a record label goes bankrupt, what happens to the rights of its catalogue?

36:11Steve:So all its back catalogue, all the records it's put out, and it owns the recording rights for all these records. So what, do the rights, do the rights revert to the artist or do they just go down the swanee with the failed label? because if there's no label there to put any of the records out, but they still own it, then the records don't come out. Any ideas what the deal is with this? I do, yeah.

36:37Stuart:I dug into this and I got two experts. I got Cliff Fleury, who's one of the top music lawyers in London, and Annabella Coldrick from the MF, the manager's body, to check my answers, and they both said yes. So, yeah, if a label goes bust, the rights don't get stuck in limbo or float around. They're basically assets of the company, just like the cash in its bank account or the furniture in its office and the computers and everything. Everything is an asset. And so what will happen is an administrator or liquidator will come in and they've got to make as much money as possible to pay off the debts that that label will owe.

37:07Stuart:And the catalogue is usually the most valuable thing they own. Like it's more valuable than the office furniture. So what happened is they'll try and sell that off and they'll either agree a deal with another label or someone who buys music rights or they'll auction off the rights and see who will pay most. So as an artist, essentially, you watch this process and go, right, someone's going to buy my rights, don't know who it will be. You could try and buy the rights yourselves. You could go to the administrator and say, hey, I'm an artist, can I buy these rights back? And if you've got enough money, you can make an offer.

37:40Stuart:But the one thing that there is, is there is this thing that can be in a contract and it's called a reversion clause. And a reversion clause essentially says, right, my contract with this label, if the label goes bust or if they don't pay my royalties or breach my contract, the rights come back to me. Now, Cliff said that's not super common. Like, usually the rights just get sold off. But there is, in theory, this thing you can have in your contract saying, yeah, if bad things happen, the rights come back to me, they don't get sold off. Right. And the other thing I heard is, it's quite bleak for artists, if you're an artist and your label still owes you royalties, you're a creditor of the label yourself.

38:17Stuart:It owes you money. And you have to join the line with all the other creditors, the tax man, everyone who it owes money to. to try and get the royalties that you're owed. If someone buys your catalogue from the label, then they also buy the responsibility to pay you royalties.

38:33Steve:Oh, really? Okay, right.

38:35Stuart:So you will still get paid for your stuff. But to a certain extent, as an artist, if you haven't got lots of money to try and buy them yourself, you just have to wait and see who buys it and hope they're a good owner and someone you can work with.

38:46Steve:Excellent. There you go. Well done. That's the first question of our return answered very comprehensively. anyone by the way if anyone's been through this particular situation uh do drop do drop us a line and as i say uh any questions you have for us uh the address coming up very shortly but finally this week abba's dancing queen has reached a big milestone on youtube it has it's joined what

39:13Stuart:youtube calls its billion views club so the dancing queen music videos and watch more than one billion times. And I've got two questions for you on this.

39:21Steve:Right.

39:22Stuart:So first question, it's the second oldest song to join YouTube's Billions Views Club. And Dancing Queen came out in 1976. So can you guess the oldest song to have reached a billion views on YouTube?

39:33Steve:Oh, I mean, is it one of those, you know, the most popular songs ever? Things like, I don't know, something about Christmas. Is it something by Frank Sinatra? I don't know. Is it something? How old? Is it Elvis Presley? Is it the Beatles?

39:50Stuart:It's 1965. It was a Christmas number one, but it's not a Christmas song. It's Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody.

39:55Steve:Oh, right. Okay. That regionally in the first.

39:58Stuart:And YouTube puts some stats out. Apparently 41 % of Dancing Queen's views in the last year came from people aged 34 and under. So it's not just people who are...

40:06Steve:It's not even their best song, though, is it? Dancing Queen is a rubbish, Abba song, Dancing Queen. I mean, it was... Don't you see? Well, you look like you're about to fight us over this now. I think it's the one people love, isn't it, though?

40:21Stuart:It's the one people like, have so many memories.

40:23Steve:I find out of their catalogue one of the most turgid. I'm not averse to ABBA, but dancing, least favourite. Least favourite. Come on, people.

40:35Stuart:If you want to ask me my second question, I once went at The Great Escape one year, they had an ABBA DJ night. And there were like three hours of deep cuts before they played all the hits. And some of those deep cuts were fantastic. like proper disco bangers. But my second question for you, YouTube has stats on where people listen. So can you guess which city in the world is the biggest one for YouTube views of ABBA's music? And I'll give you a clue. It's not Stockholm and it's not London.

41:00Steve:New York.

41:01Stuart:Nope.

41:08Is it?

41:09Steve:Would it be? I'm trying to think of countries where ABBA might be popular. Australia somewhere. I don't know.

41:16Stuart:I'll put you out of your misery. It's Mexico City.

41:18Steve:Is it?

41:19Stuart:And second is Lima in Peru, and third is Santiago.

41:23Steve:Right.

41:23Stuart:So the three biggest cities for ABBA YouTube viewing are in Latin America, which kind of is partly a function of those cities being massive streaming places, like lots of people. But also, yeah, who knew ABBA? And on Spotify, the biggest city for ABBA listening is Jakarta in Indonesia. So this is the world we're in nowadays.

41:40Steve:Well, now we know where that virtual reality ABBA show, which is running in the east end of London. We know where that's heading next then. He needs to go to Mexico City, yeah. Yeah, go to Mexico City. All right, that's where we'll leave it for this week. Unless you are one of our kindly Patreon subscribers, because if you are, stay listening. We're having a lock-in for you nice people, an extra section of the show where this week we'll be discussing, amongst other things, Stuart's obsession with the Black Crows. And if you'd like to join us for the lock-in and support what we're doing, you can sign up to become a fan or indeed super fan of the show at patreon.com thank you very much to new super fan subscribers this week ian beresford and ian jones thank you very much fellas we'll be giving shout outs to all our new super fans over the coming weeks just head to patreon.com slash the price of music for more details otherwise it would be lovely to hear from any and all of you of course any correspondence then here's the address it's the price of music podcast at gmail.com any questions about the industry you'd like us to try and answer the price of music podcast at gmail.com thank you very much for listening it's lovely to be back cheerio goodbye

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