Ozzy Osbourne is... back?; Spotify's new tickets-for-fans feature; Does recycled vinyl sound good?; Drake's hit trio of albums; and Badger Badger Badger Badger...

13:27Producer Joe:Yeah, that feels like a line that can't be put.

13:30Stuart:But no, the details of that are unclear. And so the other thing that happens here is, so Universal Music have done this deal with Spotify to create the tool, to license the tool. What needs to happen next is Universal Music are going back to artists and songwriters, which has already been happening, and say, are you in or out of this? Are you going to be in? Because it made it very clear, participating songwriters and artists. So they don't have to be part of this. This isn't going to be done to anyone without the permission.

13:53Producer Joe:it does feel that this is a sort of shift isn't it from making new ip from old ip and i don't know how i feel about that i think you know i listen to music i want to hear humans creating stuff not because they're humans but because it's it's new it's coming from somewhere new and it's not like hey what would jimmy hendrix doing billy jean sound like i don't it it feels like the laziest version of creating something yeah and i think the thing about this and like

14:20Stuart:you touched on how can you share this because I think some people out there will use this feature and make something really good and it might not be the obvious Jimmy Henry's covering blah it might be they'll do something with someone's song that is a brilliant remix and so then the question is okay someone's done something brilliant with this how is everyone going to hear it because if only that person can hear it that's not going to sell the feature to other people and that's the key thing is Spotify's going to have to sell this to people you have to pay for

14:46Producer Joe:it to do it so they're going to need to have

14:48Stuart:something out there that shows you this is how it's brilliant and fun.

14:51Producer Joe:There's got to be something in it for them, hasn't there? Yeah. So details have leaked out about the new service from Udio called Starstruck, which sounds very flashy.

15:01Stuart:What is it? Yeah, we're basically going to repeat our last five minutes again. This is very similar sounding to what Spotify and UMG are doing. So Udio is a rival to Suno, not quite as big. And they've been signing licensing deals with labels. And they've said they're working on a new version. It's going to be fully licensed and it's going to be coming. and then they did this private event I think it was with Cobalt to sort of explain what the new thing is and someone recorded it and sent that to Water and Music the kind of online community

15:29Producer Joe:who gleefully published all the details

15:33Stuart:so we can all talk about it so yeah, an app called Starstruck it lets fans, and the quote is remix, cover and reimagine songs by their favourite artists with royalties going to his artists and they sort of detailed these four features and this is to our point about what is this going to be? So one of them is called Cover, and that lets you create one artist covering another song. So Charlie XCX covering Taylor Swift. Yeah, okay. Reimagine keeps the lyrics, rewrites the music completely. So just the words, and then some, I think, Remix changes the genre or style so you can make a happy hardcore version of Billie Jean.

16:11Producer Joe:Now I'm interested in that. Okay, you're selling it to me now.

16:13Stuart:Here we go. And then Create lets you use your own lyrics with an artist's voice and style, but there'll be some rules around topic and language and style so you couldn't have Virtual Drake rapping a Nazi anthem and that sort of stuff, you know. Like, there'll be rules, guardrails, it's called. I mean, I'd like to see Kendrick Lamar come back from that. Yeah, quite. And key to all this, again, artists and songwriters are going to have to opt into this. So their labels and publishers will have to convince them, yes, be part of this Starstruck app. And if they don't, they don't have to be.

16:44Producer Joe:Here's my question about this, right? If so much money is being invested into creating technology that essentially creates remixes and artists, or AI versions of artists making alternate versions of songs, why not just pay the artist to go and do it? Why not pay? If you want a happy hardcore version of Billie Jean, it's probably out there already. Why not just give that person some money? And if you want Taylor Swift to do a cover version of Artist XYZ, why not just pay her to do it? I mean

17:15Stuart:I think the first is more is more affordable than the second there

17:19Producer Joe:well correct but surely like if surely if you take my point right if we're going to get the ones the songs coming out of the system that are going to be go big are the ones who recognize big artists voices on them right so why not just pay them to do it well yeah

17:34Stuart:and I think like you know is it Radio 1 has that live lounge where they have artists and they do one of their own songs and they do a cover and that's become quite a thing who are you going to cover in the live lounge and that's always interesting you know seeing Harry Styles who's he going to cover and what's he going to do with that song because it says something about Harry Styles exactly so there is I think it does I don't know I am struggling to think it certainly would be fun to play with this but is it something you want to pay for anyone wants to listen to I mean I do you know I did a presentation about the AI music I've been experimenting with and someone put their hand up and went how much do you listen to the stuff you've made with AI and I was like oh no I really enjoy making it for that two hours, but then I listen to humans when I'm listening to music.

18:18Stuart:And so there, yeah, I wonder, this all feels like quite a bet, doesn't it? And I know that Universal Music have a big team of people doing consumer research, asking people what they like and what they want. I assume Spotify also has that ability to do that. There must be some research that says people want this kind of thing. But like you say, we're sitting here now going,

18:39Producer Joe:but isn't it just is this perhaps just like the wider trend in tech which is let's make sure we give people toys essentially that keep them entertained on their devices and keep them just going around and around and making sort of quasi making things but this isn't real creativity if i'm being you know from an artist perspective i don't think any artist would equate sitting down and doing songwriting which is a really hard laborious and long job with you're typing in some prompts and getting a song out and in two hours having a finished thing that sounds pretty respectably normal.

19:15Producer Joe:I think it feels like the value is just in that the genuinely fun part of just mixing things together and making something new, but then why would you listen to it?

19:25Stuart:And it all stands or falls on which artists opt in, really. And that's the thing we don't know. We don't know who's opting in at the moment. When these things launch, we'll see, oh, they've got a bunch of top artists doing it. I'm interested now because Charlie XXX is in. But if it's not, if they all go, no, this is not what we want, and it's a bunch of guys you've never heard of, then it flops. So that is the key thing now. They've licensed these tools, they've done the deals, but it really is crucial now of what the actual musicians think and what can labels do to persuade them if they're unconvinced.

19:57Producer Joe:Of course, it could help if some of those artists are dead and their families are looking after their estates, and we'll come to that later. First of all, a genuine songwriter of note, Ed Sheeran, is leaving Warner Music Group after 15 years. Where's he going and why?

20:11Stuart:Well, we don't know. But did you see his Instagram posts a few weeks ago?

20:14Producer Joe:I do not follow Ed Sheeran. You do not? No.

20:17Stuart:But Ed Sheeran is at a level now where when I've got my feeds of what's happening in the music industry, Ed Sheeran shaving his head is a headline that makes his way into my orbit. Has he shaved his head? Three weeks ago he posted Instagram saying, I've shaved my head. And he said then, a lot of new beginnings in my life. cryptically, which could be personal stuff or business or both. But there's definitely some business changes because this week, yeah, Music Week did this report, but it was an email I think sent to fans saying, yeah, I'm leaving Warner Music and Asylum Records, which is the imprint he signed to me.

20:49Stuart:But it's very much like a, it's me, not them situation. So he said, this isn't a disgruntled artist leaves record label situation. He described himself as an artist who wants a shift and a change in the way he does things professionally. So it's very amicable. Warner's still got his catalogue and he said he left the door open to work with them because he loves people he works with them. But... But not enough to stay with them. Well, no. And like, so, it's where it goes next. So he's already got his own independent label, like Gingerbread Man, which I can't believe they signed. They signed an artist a while ago, which, and they work through Warner Music's ADA division.

21:25Producer Joe:Yeah.

21:26Stuart:So they're kind of as an independent label working through Warner.

21:29Producer Joe:Yeah.

21:29Stuart:But he could, he could, I mean, here we go, Ed Sheeran's a good mate of Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift famously signed this huge deal with Universal Music, which gives her control of her recordings, and it's more of a partnership than a traditional signing. So if he's been chatting to her, maybe she was like, well, you know, come and have a chat to Lucien. That would be a good WhatsApp group to be in, wouldn't it?

21:52Producer Joe:Those two, Charli XCX. And this does sort of seem like the direction of travel for a lot of these big artists, which is to get big in a traditional label arena, and then they've got the team around them who can do it all themselves. So do it yourself.

22:09Stuart:Well, this is it. I think we're entering this new era now because Spotify is 20. It's a good moment of looking back and thinking, right, there's this wave, isn't there, of streaming era megastars.

22:24Stuart:And they're all on limited-term deals of any one kind or another. And at some point, they will finish those. and they have options. And, you know, they can sign a new deal. They can go elsewhere and do it independently. They can get poached by a rival major. But they have options, and I think a lot of those people were saying, wow, okay, streaming has worked really well for me. I'm rich and I play stadiums. But I'd like more control and ownership now. So he could go independent. He could sign a Taylor Swift-style deal with a different major. He could have signed that with Warner Music, I would think, if he wanted to.

22:56Stuart:I'm sure they would have offered him.

22:57Producer Joe:I mean, it feels like Drake. I mean, who knows where Drake would go if he does leave this deal, but why would he not go solo and do it himself?

23:04Stuart:And this year, so this year, think about it. Drake is suing his label partner, and it's quite likely to leave. Ed Sheeran is leaving. Two of the biggest stars are now doing something else. And I mean, we talked last year about James Blake, who's not quite at their level, stream-wise, but he's famous. And he talked about the idea of, he found it really enriching building a team around him and doing it his own way. So if you're a Sheeran or a Drake, you can do that, or you can take lots of money for more ownership of your stuff from a big company still.

23:39Producer Joe:Talking about taking lots of money, any other business, Ozzy Osbourne is back. Now explain this to me, because as I understand it, time works in one direction, and unfortunately, Ozzy is dead. So what's happening here?

23:54Stuart:Yeah, well, this was announced last week. an event called the Licensing Expo Conference, where you would expect the keynotes would usually be licensing execs from Mattel or Hasbro or things, but they had Jack and Sharon Osborne talking about Ozzy Osbourne's legacy. And they announced yeah, Digital Ozzy, which is, I'm not sure that's the official name of it, but they're working with this company called HyperReal, which has previously done, they did metaverse stuff for like Paul McCartney and Madison Beer and for the Notorious B.I.G., who again obviously is not with us to do it. and they didn't really they just said they're doing it we're doing Digital Aussie with this company they didn't say we don't know if it's an ABBA style concerts thing or a virtual thing or even an AI Aussie Osborne you can chat to which does sound quite fun but I think what happened was at the event Jack Osborne he was talking to an audience of licensing people and that's the key context here because he said oh yeah it's almost drag and drop you could shoot a template for a commercial literally prompt what you want Digital Aussie to do in that commercial and you just drop it in.

24:55Stuart:Which, to an audience of licensing people, is like, wow. But to fans of Aussie Osborne, it's not gone down entirely well across the whole spectrum.

25:04Producer Joe:Yeah, I mean, that sounds really bleak, doesn't it? I mean, first of all, we're facing a future of, like, endless TV ads featuring dead pop stars. Like, shilling stuff for KFC or whoever. And also, like, I just can't, you know, I don't know. Maybe people who are not Aussie Osborne fans will find that to be a bit of a kick to sort of, oh, look, there's Ozzy Osbourne.

25:25Stuart:But then Jack Osbourne did a YouTube Q &A if you guys later, and I think he basically was like, I'm on par for now, I'm going to answer your questions. And someone asked him about reactions, and he said, yeah. He promised, it's not going to be fucking lame.

25:36Producer Joe:This isn't just hooking up

25:37Stuart:an image of my dad to chat GPT. And he also said, which is quite, I think this is quite important. I think I'm the less cynical one this day, aren't I? He said they talked about this quite a lot with Ozzy Osbourne before he died, and he was into it. And that's meaningful, that's important. Well, I think so, because I think when I think about someone, if you're a fan and someone you care about dies, I think you have certain views on what's appropriate and not. And then in reality, though, you don't know what they would have thought, unless they said it. They just said, I don't want to do this after I die.

26:07Stuart:Their families know. And in this case, this is not like some grandnephew who's rinsing the legacy. It's his actual wife and children. So I think it's quite good that he's online talking to fans. Yeah, at least he's been open about it. But it does, I don't know, it does make me think like there is this technology now. You can turn a dead musician into an avatar and you can do what? Two dozen different things with them from ABBA style concert stuff to the, you can come and talk to Virtual Ozzy and it's trained on all these interviews and it will tell you something. But so it's like, which of those things are appropriate, which I think is probably a family estate question really.

26:45Stuart:But then which of those fans, which of those things do fans think are appropriate and do they actually want?

26:50Producer Joe:Again, it's that idea of what kind of future do we want and are we willing to let people go? For instance, we could face a future where instead of getting a new actor to act in action movies, we could just have an AI version of Bruce Willis forever, an established star, an established brand. People like Bruce Willis and here's a new movie with Bruce Willis in it. Superficially, that seems like it could work right because people like bruce willis you know saying quippy one-liners and shooting people or whatever but but ultimately that's like do we really want that future where we're having this

27:26Stuart:kind of stagnation well yeah and in the interesting the movie industry i think there's a lot of a lot of strong pushback from the acting unions going on yeah actually we're not going to give actors are not going to sign over the rights to let a studio train in ar and bruce on you know yeah today's bruce willis so they can do that yeah it has to be on it so i think the good thing in music is this seems to be very much under the control of estates and families at the moment. It's not something that, like, record labels aren't doing this. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I was just thinking about all the artists I love who are dead and how many of them I'd like to see in Avatar form.

28:03Stuart:Which we may be discussing in Lock-In, which ones we see. We'll talk about that in the Lock-In. But yeah, it's difficult. But I think the good thing here is Jack Osborne was going on YouTube and answering questions from fans. So at least there is a channel here for fans of what he said. we don't like that idea and he might say but we're doing this and they might go oh that sounds better so there's a dialogue

28:22Producer Joe:which is talking of artists who were alive and trying something new Richie Horton famously performs as Plastic Man and as Richie Horton and is very good at making sort of very heavy minimal techno he's very sort of experimental with technology and music he's released something which is perhaps the opposite of nosebleed techno yeah

28:45Stuart:Yeah. Well, this is like a thing he released five years ago that's now getting remastered. So we're in the kind of the reissue phase of AI music, which is kind of... So he went with a starter called Endale, and he basically gave them a bunch of sounds and beats and loops. He kind of gave them fragments. And then the AI of Endale put that together into a soundscape that you could listen to. And it was designed for focusing. So if you're working or if you're kind of concentrating and relaxing. Actually, side story, I interviewed him back then around that and, oh God, the first thing he spotted when we had a Zoom, he saw I had a synth in the background.

29:21Stuart:He's like, oh, you like synths? And I was immediately more out of my depth than I'd been in any Zoom call ever.

29:26Producer Joe:I've also met Richie a couple of times and he's a really nice guy. He's totally enthusiastic about what he does with his music. He really believes that music is a force for good and he's a really inspiring musician.

29:39Stuart:think anyway so this soundscape that endell released through its app it's been streamed for more than five million hours and they basically they apparently it was about focusing but they found people with adhd were finding it and saying this helps us yeah like audiences didn't expect came to it so they've basically reworked it and remastered it for this year but it just feels like to me this is one of those examples where like to your point earlier on this artist who's dead can't consent to their their stuff being remixed in someone else's style but rich hilton is very much alive he's working with this company he's excited about it and what they've made is something new that sits apart from yeah it's it's a third thing isn't it and the permission is really baked in yeah which is kind of a term that like people get people a bit rude about it functional music but music to help you focus now you could you could get a random ai to spurt out two hours of music when you're doing your homework or your work or you could listen to this thing that richie Jordan has put his humanity into.

30:38Stuart:And it's fully, yeah. So I think this is a good example of, for all we might be cynical about some of the other AI music remixing stuff, this is a good example of an artist actually having agency, I think. So, yeah.

30:50Producer Joe:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is one of those things. I mean, this is, like you say, this has been around for nearly six years. I remember I got an early version of this Infinite Plastic Man app, or whatever it was called, from Endel. and I once this is pre-COVID and pre-children I put this on I put it on a party in Berlin and no one noticed it just fitted in with the kind of minimal techno soundtrack that was already on Berlin children's parties yeah that's right do you know

31:16Stuart:I saw him he supported the Chemical Brothers once or rather he played after them because of the lighter and actually my nose actually bled and I felt so proud of myself because I was like I've been to a techno performance where my nose has bled it's proper techno he would actually appreciate that

31:30Producer Joe:I think and the final thing in this section is that vinyl traditionally is one of the sort of worst things that you could make because it's made out of pvc and there's a lot of chemicals that are bad that are part of that process and then of course everybody wants 180 gram vinyl which is heavy to transport and there's a big carbon footprint and blah blah blah but now you can make vinyl out of recycled records. We discussed that a couple of weeks ago, but the question that every audiophile has is do they actually sound any good?

32:03Stuart:Yeah, and Warner Music is working with a company called GZ Media to find out. Which is kind of, the concept is like once upon a time, if you made a physical piece of media that no one wanted to buy, you had to go out into the desert and bury it in a landfill. Atari famously with game cartridges did. but this is yeah so basically Warner and Jasmine they took 10 ,000 unsold records don't know which ones maybe the last Ed Sheeran album who knows and they shredded them which sounds quite fun I hope it's jumping into a big bath with hammers but I assume it's a machine process and then they pressed new records and like some of these new records had like 10 % recycled material and some of them were fully 100 % and then ran all manner of audiophile tests to test well it was about is the audio is there a difference in the audio quality and also importantly the perceived audio quality so actually people listening to it

33:00Producer Joe:how warm is it?

33:01Stuart:well that's it play me anything I can barely hear differences between someone blaring out their phone speaker on a big system because my ears are terrible but what they found was there were minor differences but comparable listening quality and so it does not inherently compromise perceived audio quality people listen to it and we're like sounds fine which is I think a good sign.

33:24Producer Joe:For sure. I mean I think also if I was being cynical for a change I would say that a lot of people buying vinyl are buying it partially for listening, partially for displaying and they're probably not listening to them on record players that are particularly high quality anyway so what's the difference? We're going to have letters. Yeah. You're in trouble now. I'll go to bat for the audio files. but I we've written about on Music Ally as well a German company that produces a record sort of another type of recycled plastic record called Eco Record which is a sort of injection molded version of records and they're made from recycled plastic bottles and the last Coldplay album for instance was released this way a moon shaped pool no wait that's Radiohead the moon titled one that Coldplay did yes something about a moon anyway that one had a sticker on the front saying this record is made of nine recycled bottles recovered from the ocean.

34:19Producer Joe:And that all feels really, really good. And of course, the question, audiophile question is, yes, but do they sound as good, you know? So I went a couple of weeks ago to an event in Berlin in one of those audiophile high-end record stores that I would never dare to go into because it's got like$2 million worth of record players in it. And they did exactly that. They had two records, one pressed the traditional way, one on this eco record, and they played them on the same sound system, which I think I figured I had a value of about 150 ,000 euros. So mid-range, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a sort of pocket money one.

34:54Producer Joe:And I couldn't tell the difference. I mean, and they were really played through these incredible speakers. I couldn't tell the difference. Maybe someone could, but I mean... So something like the back going, oh, the high-end frequency. Oh, yeah, that isn't very warm. It's kind of lukewarm. Anyway, Recycle Vinyl is definitely the future, I think. And also, apparently, the pricing of making these records is only marginally above traditional vinyl. And that's a really good thing is what will make a change.

35:19Stuart:And it's a thing we haven't talked about, isn't it? Like 19 years, we think we're 19 years now into the vinyl revival, 19 years of growth. I think we have to stop calling it a revival now. Well, yeah, right. But I think most of us, and I'm guilty of this, certainly go, this is brilliant news. Vinyl's wonderful, blah, blah, blah. But we don't really talk about the planetary impact of this. And like I say, it's not just about the manufacturing of the vinyl, which has a certain impact. But also, yeah, if they don't sell. So I think it's good that people are tackling that issue because I think it's exciting that vinyl has been on this long-term surge.

35:53Stuart:And if that can now be a sustainable business climate-wise.

35:58Producer Joe:Anything recyclable is good, right? Recycle plastic bottles, recycle vinyl into new vinyl. That is a really huge leap. And it's great that they're getting the costs down per price, very, very close to traditional vinyl. and it gives labels and teams an option. And the artists can drive that option and say, no, I want recycled vinyl.

36:18Stuart:And good that labels are like, Warner Music is doing these tests with another company. It's not just like someone's doing the technology and then having to sell it to labels. Labels are seeing this and going, we want to be involved in this.

36:27Producer Joe:And finally, Stu, banjo, banjo, banjo. For those of you who may not know what we're talking about, you may be wondering, do I have this song queued up? Yes, I do. Of course you do.

36:46Producer Joe:Okay, so you can fill us in on what this is, but that is now a preserved cultural artifact in the UK. Stu, are we drunk or is something happening here? Yeah, go home, Brits.

36:56Stuart:So this is a 2003 viral flash animation. Now, we'll have to explain flash now to anyone who was born. Flash, of course, the famous animation technology that led humans into very bad ways, including introductions for websites. where you had to watch an animation before you could get around. Yeah. But it was also huge. It was our age, people's memes and games and animation. And there was this guy called Mr. Weeble, not his real name. No. Maybe his real name. No. Definitely not his real name. He's a British animator. And he made this, and it's like basically, yeah, it's like what you say, it's deliberately rudimentary animation with clip art badges appearing.

37:37Stuart:Yeah. and it's an earworm and yet so the British Film Institute has officially preserved it which apparently involves this is fascinating contacting the creator but not just saying can we preserve your thing it's like have you got the original file and I mean I don't know how many original files of things you were doing in 2003 you've got you can access because the original files they sound warmer when you listen to them don't they and then they and then they store it into robot operated tape libraries for posterity in different places, obviously, because one of them burnt down and the other one was still there.

38:11Stuart:Wow. But it's... The BFI, they're kind of a publicly funded film institute, aren't they? Yes. And they've also preserved Charlie Bip My Finger, the famous YouTube video. These two things were the kind of headlines. But it does make you think, like, this stuff is silly perhaps, but it is part of people's history. But when it's digital media, It could be done in a technology that no longer works, stored on a format that no longer can be accessed. So this work is, I think, important, even if we, you know, badger, badger, badger, might make people who don't know it go, what is this? Why aren't you preserving the greatest music that was created ever, you know?

38:53Producer Joe:I think it is up there, isn't it? I mean, I remember when this, I'm old enough to remember when this came out and it emerged on the message boards of a website called Beta, which is still running and is a sort of home for all this ridiculous sort of animation and pictures and stuff like that. And I remember it very clearly because it was very, very new, hadn't seen anything like that before, and it was very impactful. So I totally understand why it's been preserved. And, of course, this is the argument, to go serious for a moment, of the sort of Internet Archive platforms that are pulling in all of the creative input of humanity and storing it and saying, well, you know, these video games, they might not work on a platform in the future, so we're making that work.

39:29Producer Joe:You know, these songs, just because they're around now doesn't mean they'll be there forever. Of course, that frustrates a lot of rights holders who see their work being infringed from their perspective.

39:39Stuart:But this is important, right? And preservation is something vertical. Yeah, so this is when Spotify comes out and goes, you know what, you can have Jimi Hendrix covering Badger, Badger, Badger.

39:47Producer Joe:Now, okay, sold.

39:49Stuart:Now, this leads me on to, I'm going to leave everyone with one earworm. Ten years after this animation came out, it was remade. Did you ever hear this? No. It was re-recorded as Save the Badger, Badger, Badger. Now, can you guess who played guitar on the cover? That it's called Save the Badger, Badger, Badger. There's a clue there. No. Brian May out of Queen, Sir Brian May. Right. Played guitar. And it also has shouting from Brian Blessed, the actor. Oh, wow. And this was released as part of a campaign against badger culling in the UK. So everyone out there who's heard Badger, Badger for the first time now, go and look for Save the Badger, Badger, Badger and enjoy what is even more bonkers.

40:28Stuart:and I guess in 10 years' time might get preserved in its turn. I will absolutely link to that below the podcast.

40:35Producer Joe:And that's it for us this week. Thank you very much for listening, as ever. If you're enjoying the show, please do spread the word about it. You can just point them at tpom.uk. That's T-P-O-M dot U-K. And you can support us as well if you'd like to via Patreon by signing up to become a superfan, which also gets you access to our weekly pub-themed lock-in where you get to access our chat for about 15-20 minutes of bonus material after the main show ends. You can access that at patreon.com slash thepriceofmusic. And as ever, do let us know your thoughts, feelings, questions, and observations. We want your vibes.

41:13Producer Joe:Anything about how the music industry works, we'll do our best to figure it out and explain it to you. So drop us a line with your questions at thepriceofmusic at gmail.com. That is thepriceofmusic at gmail.com. so that's it from me Joe Sparrow and him Stuart Dredge for this week see you next week