Spotify will launch an AI-music service... but what might it be – and will artists get paid? MTV shuts its music video channels; The Irish basic income for musicians; and Stu sings Baby Shark (again)

0:02Steve:Hello and welcome to The Price of Music brought to you by Music Ally, the show that's fascinated by all the fun and games and finances of the music world. As explained each week by me, Steve Lemack, and him, Stuart Dredge, if you want an easy guide to what's going on in the music biz and how it all works and how the figures stack up, then here we are every week starting with a big stat. I don't know if it's going to be a big stat. It's a stat from a reasonably big event, but just how big was the Mercurys this year? What's the stat you've got for us, Stuart, from the Mercurys?

0:37Stu:I mean, it's a percentage stat, so, you know, it's all relative. But the stat is 74%.

0:44Steve:74%, which is, I'm guessing, how much someone's sales have increased since being part of the Mercury Prize night.

0:54Stu:This is true. It's the winner himself, Sam Fender. So this is the amount his Spotify streams grew by in the hours after he won the prize compared to the week before. So a bunch of people went on, saw him win and went, right, I'm going to go and stream it and listen to him. For a bit of context, he's got nearly 8.1 million listeners on Spotify. So that's quite, so 74 % spike in streams is kind of meaningful. I mean, I was looking at last year's, do you remember last year when English teacher won the Mercury Prize?

1:21Steve:Yes.

1:21Stu:and there was this press release came out saying they saw a chart sales increase of a thousand and 73 percent in the following week and then a few lines below said it got to number 40 in the chart

1:31Steve:yeah which yeah it was starting it was it was starting from a very low figure probably wasn't it because i mean and obviously so because the album had been out for a while so it wouldn't have been it wasn't as if it was at its peak so uh it would have been selling scant copies until until the spotlight was shone on it. But 73%, not to be sniffed out. We'll come back to the Mercury Prize and some thoughts on that in the lock-in a bit later for our Patreon subscribers. But we will bring you our big stories first. Three big stories, as always. We try and sift through all the news from the past week and bring you the three stories.

2:11Steve:You can tell I've got a cold. bring me bring you the three stories uh that have been big industry talking points uh certainly this one has i saw a lot of people uh firing off emails after this announcement that spotify is going to be well it's going to make artist first ai music products uh in inverted commas uh all three major labels and some independents have already signed up to this uh the question obviously to start with is what is an artist first ai music product well we're gonna have to wait a while to find out

2:47Stu:because it's very very purposefully vague this announcement um but yeah responsible ai products that empower the artists and songwriters they represent and connect them with the fans who support them so it's very broad brush we're gonna do stuff we're gonna do it with the labels and the artists uh and it's all going to be friendly was basically the gist of this announcement right

3:10Steve:and can we read anything into this i mean let's we should make the point this is not this is not labels signing licensing deals on the subject on the topic of ai's it's not an ai licensing deal arrangement this is something else yeah it's kind of the pre-licensing deal in a way

3:26Stu:it's saying we're going to build stuff we're not sure yet what we're going to work with them to do it and when we do it we're going to license first so in a way it's it's spotify sort of saying this is how we're going to approach doing ai stuff we're going to do it by the book and as much as we we we sometimes criticize spotify and people do this is exactly what the music industry has been calling for they want ai companies doing ai stuff to come first and say partner first figure out what you're going to do with us and then license music properly yeah and pay us appropriately for for the rights to use user material.

4:00Stu:So I can speculate a bit. I mean, so one interesting line in the announcement was that artists and rights holders will choose if and how to participate. So the implication there is whatever Spotify does end up building, not just labels, but artists can say, I don't want to be part of this, don't want to be used. So that's, again, that's a good thing. So could be a tricky area if a label says, we're going to be part of it. And then an artist says, well, I don't want to be, make sure my music is kept out of it.

4:25Steve:Yeah.

4:26Stu:And in terms of speculation, like that phrase about it's about empowering artists and connecting them with fans. You can read some stuff into that. What this certainly won't be, it's not going to be a service where you or me can hit a button and make an AI track and release it on Spotify. But they're not going to do that. Labels would hate that. I would say it's off the table from now. So I think it's more about it might be, for example, it could be about using AI in some way to create your own version of a song by an artist. They could say, right, I'm going to allow my new single to be remixed using AI into different kinds of styles and genres.

5:01Stu:That's something that people have done before. It could be even outside music. So, you know, Spotify sells T-shirts and merch. They could do something where you get to remix a band's artwork or logo into your own T-shirt design using Gen AI. I mean, that's not the music itself, but they could do that. So I think what it is, we're going to do stuff. We're going to experiment. We're going to announce this partnership. then we're going to talk to everyone about our ideas and their ideas. And then when the time comes, we'll license and we'll let people opt out if they want to. So, I mean, I don't know if you saw, there's been chatter online.

5:35Stu:I think artists who don't like Spotify already, who don't trust them, you know, reacted as you would expect. They said, well, we don't trust them in this either. How can we believe their promises this is going to be artists first and so on? There's been a lot of that chatter. But in an industry level, this is very much what, this is how labels want every AI company to do it. They want them to come first, figure out a deal, and then do it properly. So in that sense, it's setting a little bar, I think, for other AI companies to follow, perhaps.

6:02Steve:Yeah, I mean, well, it will come down to how much money is involved in the licensing deals, won't it? Because I guess, you know, for people who will criticize Spotify, they'll be saying Spotify don't give us enough money for use of our music when it comes to paying royalties. so they will probably say so I suspect they won't pay us enough money to license our music for their AI assisted music products.

6:31Stu:Yeah and again the transparency there is going to be important if a label does a deal with Spotify to tell its artists how much and how. I mean the other thing it was interesting line in the announcement saying it's kind of a warning in a way it said some voices in the tech industry believe copyright should be abolished we don't musicians rights matter and copyright is essential so good stuff um if the music industry doesn't lead in this moment ai powered innovation will happen elsewhere without rights consent or compensation so it's kind of by saying this stuff is going to happen and if you don't want just the bad guys doing it

7:05Steve:we're going to do it with you so so does this i mean this does this put us right back uh where we were when the music industry was scared of online bootlegging, you know, the big piracy wars. Does it take us back to the days of Napster where the music industry is flapping around going, we've got to do something about this. And Apple came along and said, well, we can do this. I mean, and negotiated a very good deal for Apple because there was panic in the music industry. They knew they had to do something. So they sold themselves slightly cheaply, I think, at the time. So are we back there again?

7:42Stu:I've heard the word Napster more often in the last two weeks than I have in the previous few months. So that parallel is definitely drawing me. I think it's definitely like there's a really firm sense in the industry of we want to do deals. We had a conference last week for Music Ally and it was a big thing. We want to do deals. And that's two reasons. One is we want to be making stuff ourselves and like that beyond the inside of it. And the other is if you're going to sue people for doing bad things, you need to prove that you are also licensing people to do good things. so in a way the music industry does need to be have some partners so yeah i think it i think it's a really relevant example napster and i think maybe that's that's what the music industry has also got in mind so they'll be thinking back to well how was the apple deal good for us how do we maybe not so good for us and we're going to try and avoid that again so i think maybe i think maybe it will act as a lesson and hopefully not just a repetition of any of the things people were unhappy

8:38Steve:Okay. From one name from days of yore, from Napster to another name from the past, our second story this week, it's the end of an era as we learn that MTV is shutting down its last remaining music channels. once seen as well an essential part of the music landscape a network obviously that could break bands and make global hits but the game is up for mtv which i guess i suppose isn't surprising giving all the alternative channels now open to artists but i'm sure there'll be one or two people shedding a nostalgic tear this week i think it is one of those things isn't it where a lot of people

9:21Stu:are going i didn't even realize they still have music channels but feeling sad because when you When I was a teenager revising for my A-levels, MTV was my companion. So, you know. But, yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about MTV's music channels for a long, long time. But, yeah, MTV Music, MTV 80s, MTV 90s, Club MTV and MTV Live, they're all ending on 31st of December. But, and I know you're going to be worried about this.

9:46Steve:Yeah.

9:47Stu:What about the MTV channel that shows Geordie Shore and Naked Dating UK? Is that what MTV does these days? Well, yeah. Do you remember the era when the Osbournes came up and the reality shows and Geordie Shore? Oh, yeah, of course. So there's still a channel that does that, and that's carrying on. So people who want their naked dating UK fix don't have to worry. It's just the music videos.

10:11Steve:Right. I mean, it does make you think, though, doesn't it, of all the music-based media and online companies that have been so integral at a certain point in history and then were left behind mtv i mean we've talked recently about uh the music weekly the inkies you know the weekly music papers myspace i mean you know i'm sure i'm probably missing some out of this list myspace you know like mtv helped break bands um for a while there and as quickly

10:41Stu:as it arrived that was gone well it makes you wonder doesn't it in five years time will we be talking about tiktok going and things because because i think this is the other thing i've seen you've probably seen this this week as well like there's a lot of talk about is this the is this the the nail in the coffin of the long form music video is there any and and we talked about lizzo recently didn't we saying no point in doing music videos now just make tiktok clips and it's weird because like if you say the music video like the four minute or you know if you're guns and roses the 12 minute if you're michael jackson the 27 minute long form video yeah like that that is but but music video as a generic thing is everywhere it's on tiktok it's instagram like the clips of video with music accompanying it is bigger than ever but it's not happening on tvs now because people are just people just sitting on their phone scrolling and that's the change in behavior really so that's what mtv's i guess the challenge i'm doing was not just that music videos maybe had been had evolved into different things but people watching linear tv has changed and if you want to watch the new video from your band you love you go to youtube or you go somewhere

11:48Steve:else you don't need to wait yeah i mean none of this helps of course by the fact that there there aren't the budgets for music videos if it's one of those things it's related isn't it if music videos seem to not have less impact in terms of a marketing campaign then let's spend less money on them and if you spend less money on them obviously they're not the big firework moments in the video world and then slowly the whole thing goes into a slight decline i mean there are still obviously particularly every every week you'll see a young band whose mates has made a video for them for probably peanuts which is really brilliant but further you go up the scale and i'm sure ambitious video makers probably reach a point where the major label gets in touch and says we would like an amazing video for our new signings and then when they say what's the budget it's still going to be 50 50p that's yeah that's a problem with um when it comes to music videos at the moment just no just no budget for anyone yeah and that's the thing they're all like so you

12:49Stu:can work with brands like you know that band okay go the the the band who they've made a habit of

12:54Steve:getting brands to pay loads of money for them to do cool stuff in videos um i was watching i was

12:58Stu:watching um later um this week with jules holland and it was um jenny best was on it uh absolutely a performance that makes your hair stand an end. And that is going to be on YouTube, I think, because Later puts a lot of videos on YouTube. And so I don't think she needs a music video for that song. She could have that live performance. And I think there's a whole bunch of companies that exist to kind of film performances and put them online. So if you're a band, I think nowadays, again, why spend money on a video unless you've really got a concept you want to make? When you can probably find someone to film you performing it really well, and that's the thing that will spread.

13:33Stu:So like there's alternative ways to like music video is a much wider thing now. But yeah, I mean, with MTV again, I don't know. I'm trying to think the last time I watched it. I mean, maybe one New Year's Eve when I was trying to find some music put in the background while we were playing games with the kids or something. But I mean, it was so key to me when I was 15, 16.

13:55Steve:Okay. Final big story. The Australian music industry is increasingly worried about local artists and their falling share of streams on the big music services. And it's not I mean, it's not the only English speaking country who have these worries at the moment that their own music scenes aren't competing on the on the streaming platforms.

14:21Stu:Yeah, this is a bigger story, I think. I think it's going to one that's going to grow. um but yeah this is a report from a company called apra amcos like the collecting society for australia and new zealand and this report was like we collected and paid out a record amount of royalties last year and you think oh great but then said yeah that the share of of works by local songwriters and composers steadily declined on streaming and also on short video services like tiktok so i think on streaming services um what was it four years ago australian music was 13.6 percent of streams in australia and now it's 9.5 so down by nearly a third and yeah when i was writing about this it did strike me that this is something that's happening in the uk where there's been these worries about local artists not being in chart um in canada canada had built this fund that he wants streaming services to pay into to support local artists and part of that is worry about and so these are like the three biggest outside the us english-speaking markets and yet if you talk to people in France or in Germany, their charts are like full of local artists singing in French and German.

15:25Stu:And they're really excited about that. Mexico and Brazil, Poland. So there's this thing happening in streaming, which is that there's kind of worrying happening in the Anglo markets that aren't the US. Because in the US, it can still, Taylor Swift, Sabrina Carpenter, big stars in the US still travel worldwide. But yeah, maybe something is happening here where the English-speaking countries used to be bigger and maybe now are facing all this competition from k-pop afbeats reggaeton but also local scenes in local countries um so i think and australia is quite interesting because i think saying there's a problem here we're worried is part one but then part two is what do you do about this to support your local scene um so what canada's tried to do is try to get money off the big streaming services to support local artists in australia there were these suggestions that maybe should we make streaming services recommend and playlist local artists more in the same way that you get radio quotas in some countries you know yeah and spotify didn't like that they kind of pushed back against that said no we do a lot for australian artists look here's all the things we do but i think in markets where people are worried about local scenes you may start to see this well hang on a minute how many artists are you recommending you know why your play is full of the big american stars and not more local acts i think we're going to see more of that discussion and maybe i mean I've not seen it happening in the UK, interestingly.

16:47Stu:No one's really been pressuring the streaming services to put more British artists in their playlists. But this is the kind of conversation you end up having, perhaps.

16:55Steve:Okay. Any other bits? Oh, I'll tell you what we should come back to. Now we've had some time to digest some of the topics that were raised. We should just very quickly go back to last week's interview with AIF CEO John Rostrand, which I thought was really good. I mean, a really good summary of where we are in terms of the independent festival circuits in 2025. Do have a listen if you missed it, by the way, because you'll find out, amongst other things, how much port-a-lose cost. But what I found especially interesting, I don't know about whether you thought the same, Stuart, but was the importance and the popularity of early bird tickets.

17:36Steve:How the concept of the early bird ticket is now central, isn't it, to the year in the life of a festival. And also the knock-on from that of, in some cases, people wanting to announce bands early so that you can have a first wave early. But you go early bird, then first wave of announcements. months but getting ticket sales done um possibly before christmas is really important that was one

18:07Stu:of the things i took why yeah which always i mean i i always think god the last thing i want to do when finishing a three days at a festival is is pay to spend more days in a tent next year but like you were saying that's crucial isn't it and i mean it's weird because it makes it makes more sense to me now as someone who's not really like in that world deep as deeply as you are for example like i sometimes when a festival is kind of announced and then a few weeks later is cancelled quickly it always seemed very strange to me it's happened recently one near me but that makes sense

18:36Steve:now because if the early bird tickets flop then like he said they kind of know this is going to be a challenging yeah yeah and so setting themselves targets off we need to sell this amount will i mean you know so yeah there's various things isn't it it's one there's confidence in the festival if the tickets go well or no confidence if obviously, as you say, the ticket sales flop initially. You're never going to recover from that, I don't think, over the course of the year and the run-up to the festival itself. So you just take the decision very early doors. Let's bend this off. Maybe it wasn't a good idea.

19:11Steve:But which brings us to something else which was, I mean, makes absolute sense, but I hadn't really thought about, is the difference between festivals which know its audience and which have an audience have a community around it they're more likely to succeed than if you start a new festival and it's just got a handful of bands on because each year the bands are going to be different and you can't you'll just have a transient audience who won't necessarily come every year you need the people who buy the early bird ticket when they leave having had a good time and you know they're coming back next year because they want to feel part of