The battle to keep one of the UK's great grassroots venues alive, buying the venue with the help of the community, and the many challenges small venues face in 2026 – with Ricky Bates of The Joiners

15:05Steve:Right then. Any other business for this week? Well, it's our first interview of the year. We are hoping to bring you insights into the industry from a selection of guests Hopefully one a month if we can sort that out Just to bring you closer to the reality of what the industry is like It seemed pertinent after the publication of last week's Music Venue Trust report into live music That we should focus on the real life of a grassroots venue The venue in question, the Joyner's Arms, opened in 1968 It came into its own in the 90s playing host to a number of bands who would soundtrack that decade since when it's hosted early gigs by Muse, The Libertines, Klaxon, Catfish and The Bottom.

15:45Steve:I mean, it's probably easier making a list of people who haven't played there than the ones who have. But what are the financial challenges of keeping the venue afloat? How do you spot the next big thing? And who's asked for the most surreal or idiotic rider to answer some of those questions? We're joined by Ricky Bates. Hello, Ricky. Hi, Steve. How are you doing? Very good. Thank you very much for joining us. Just so people know, just tell us a little bit about yourself and how long you've worked at the Joiners and what your roles have been there over the years. Well, I started in 2013 on a cold November night.

16:23And the first week that I actually started here, I think was looking the other day. We had the 1975 here and they only had two songs out. I think they played like 25 minutes. But, yeah, I got involved initially because the venue was in. I was doing my own shows here as an independent promoter, and the venue got itself into a lot of financial trouble, debt, and that was even before how bad the music industry is now. So end of 2012, 2013, so there was a lot of promoters that were using the venue, and we were kind of like, well, if the joiner goes under, then we don't have anywhere to do these shows, and there'll be no scenes.

17:04So I jumped in temporarily to try and help, and then I'm still here 12 years later.

17:15Steve:So what did you do? Did you take over? Did you become a sort of in-house promoter then, or just a general dog's body trying to just shore up the workings of it all, and as you say, just keep it going? Yeah, it was kind of like I kind of came into that. they had a division of they had a nightclub at the time that was when all these alternative nightclubs became like a big thing you know around that time so they were putting money into that and there had to be a divide of business between the live venue and the nightclub but i think the nightclub was draining the joiners quite a lot financially and so they would they were linked together um and i kind of came in and was like well you know screw the nightclub the joiners is like the main feature here so if any anything's going to survive out of the two it has to be you know the joiners so i had to kind of come in and remodel the way they were doing everything i think they had club promoters and as we all know club promoters aren't live promoters there's a massive difference in terms of what we're in it for and what we're trying to achieve and you know the levels of effort that it requires this isn't a usb pen you know it's there's elements of production and logistics that require more than just turning up drunk and hitting clay.

18:33It's not one of those. So I just think they had the wrong staffing at the time. And yeah, so I kind of came in and was like, right, let's figure out a plan. And we had to make the landlord at the time said that we owed, I think it was like 67 ,000 pounds in rent arrears and brewery debt through the brewery at the time. And he said, you've got three months to pay it or you'll be chucked out and it will become a shop or retail. So we panicked and obviously I called our old friend Frank Turner. He did two shows on his birthday. So we made like 15 grand in one day. And then we had the notorious infamous vaccine show a couple of weeks after that, where someone ripped the fire door off and there were over 350 people in the venue.

19:27And it actually fits 200 for those who are unaware. So you can imagine the chaos that it's. And then I kind of slowly had to build back the business. but I got thrown completely in the deep end because you know at the time uh Pat I was working at H &B and then another bar job so I was doing two jobs and trying to run the joiners at the same time well well you know save it from being closed down completely so yeah it was a lot of

19:55Steve:high pressure situations let's talk about um there's a lot of stuff actually which I would like to get through if we can I mean there's some still concern you know stuff which of deep concern when it comes to the grassroots circuit. But there are some positive things, I think, coming through, including the news recently for yourself about Music Venue Properties taking the venue under its wing. We'll get to that in a second. But how was the venue doing last year as a snapshot? How were bringing the story up to date? How were its finances? What is the reality of running a venue in 2025 going into 26?

20:34um i'd say it's i kind of feel like i've gone full circle it's like not that with that amount in debt it's just the difficulty of it's almost like we've hit a reset button in the last two years so where it's you know after covid there was this flourish of people wanted to go back out and go to gigs again and then i think last year we had some amazing shows like we punched you know we punched way above our weight because we used the bigger venues in the city so that's the model of the joiners surviving is based on, you know, the money we make within the joiners itself isn't enough to sustain the venue.

21:10We have to outsource to, you know, up to 1 ,000 capacity. And we reinvest that money from the bigger shows back into the joiners. So it's kind of like this ecosystem of circle of life of, you know, we'd like to bring the bands here, sell the show out here, and then, you know, go into the 400 cap and then go into the 800 cap. And we'll keep them as long as we can before the national swoop in and take the tours. But that's something that I had to put in place originally in 2013, 2014, because you sit there and you look at the finances even then compared to now, and it was difficult. So you just can't really make it work.

21:49Steve:What are the biggest outgoings then for a venue like yours? When you're totting up all the money that has to go out and all the bills that have to be paid, you know we're constantly being reminded of well you know it's it's rent it's rates it's energy bills going through the through the roof is it is it that is that the reality it is yeah that's like that's the boring part of you know running a venue it's like you've got to sit there at the end of the month and go you know the the gas and the electric and the uh that don't own the pa so like a lot of venues don't own the pa so the pa and the desk and the lights and things So, you know, there's an outgoing for that.

22:29And the problem is with that is if you have like an older venue or a bigger venue, you can hide those desks and those light desks and they're away from the mosh pit area or the beer spillage area. But you can't really do that here. So it's more of a case of, you know, we have to hire our gear because things get spilt and thrown and explode and the wear and tear and stuff. So that's one big overhead. then the energy bills is a big overhead then the staff the staff going up the the minimum wage going up twice in a year which i agree with but the problem is with that a business at this level or a small venue it's you know we're paying people you know the bar staff shifts now gone from paying someone 45 pounds a shift to 60 pounds and you've got three or four bar staff on that then pushes up your you know your overhead for you got your security and then obviously you've got like earlier loadings and it's just like box office staff show reps sound guy lighting guy like people need to be paid it's like as soon as the general wage goes up the sound engineer then he needs to be paid more she needs to be paid more because it's only fair that the skilled people get paid more because the bar staff are getting paid so do you know what i mean the costs just go up

23:48Stu:and up and up you mentioned that that margins are super tight and i know we we talked about the music venue trust report recently where i think half of venues made no profit at all and margins are super tight like how does that impact the daily running of the venue and the decisions you're making knowing the margins that they are uh i to be honest i'm very uh cautious about the way i book now uh about what i take and what i don't take and there's a couple of things it kind of eats me alive because i've always kind of been one of those you know i'm i'm the venue operator business owner whatever now and all these other important titles you can give yourself but at the end of the day i'm still on my hands and knees patching up a hole in the floor one in the morning with gaffer tape because people have gone so crazy at a hardcore show they've ripped it up but you know it's or you know you're in the drain trying to unblock something because someone stuck a pint glass down toilet it's it doesn't matter how important your role is it's still like it's all encompassing at this level so it's yeah very difficult so the margins have become uh so tight that i'm like looking at bands that i want to put on but we have to be like so careful with how much we're offering yeah and it kind of eats at me because i want to grow new artists

25:12Steve:you alluded to this but i wanted to ask because another of the key uh points in the music benny trust report that was about tours getting shorter but also how some towns and cities are just falling off the geek circuit when you and when you look through that list of places that always used to be part of you know an up-and-coming bands tour you definitely go to leicester you might go to wolverhampton all these places though is this something you've noticed and is this affecting you that people will come only so far. They won't quite make it to the south coast. And if they do, it's Brighton and that's as far down.

25:48Steve:We're not going any further west, thanks. No, no. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of something that beyond that irks me because when you grow an artist from like joiners to the next level at the engine rooms or the 865 or the brook, we then don't see them again because they just go straight into your roundhouse in London or your academy in Manchester. So the shorter these tours are becoming, then the less business that we have. But it's also, it's just destroying the entire ecosystem. And there's an element to it where I'm like, there has to be these agencies and these booking agents and these managers have to take some sort of responsibility for rooting their artists into regional towns.

26:39and I'm not talking about going and playing in, you know, you know, the Arsend of Nowhere in Cornwall or, you know, I know Plymouth used to be a place that had a bunch of venues and bands rarely go there, exit a cavern, struggling. You know, I pay attention to what listings are in venues because we're all kind of looking at, you know, we're on this level playing field of going, well, how are they surviving and how are they surviving if we're struggling?

27:04Steve:But it's such a shame, isn't it? because you know the audience is there's usually an audience there and what's what was being one of the great strengths of the joiners over the years i mean i've followed bands who've toured you know rooted through your place and it's some of the there was a really enthusiastic audience i'll tell you for catfish in the bottle man or something which is one of the hottest gigs i've ever been to it was so exciting and they had such a brilliant time because they're on the cusp so it's really it's it's the bands or the bands are missing out as you say as well because it's really this is the point isn't it where it's still fun and you're you know you're moving up a level and the audiences are coming with you but you know we're we're getting to the point where there's large swathes of the country where there's audiences but we're not serving we're not serving them this you know this is something which i think we you know we which needs addressing certainly because yeah i I mean, name some of them, but all the bands that have come through, you mentioned, you know, Vaccines played there, Libertines have played there.

28:04Steve:You've had so many bands, haven't you, over the years? Yeah, yeah. It's complete bananas when you look at it, but it's, you know, Steve Strange signed Coldplay here on their second time here, and there were Rolls Royces in the street in St. Mary's, which at that point in the 2000s, although I think that was the year 2000s, you know, this area was not the best like area to even have you know you get your wheels in the X let alone park bloody rolls-royce down here but it's yeah that those moments are being removed from the fabric of the band's journey and their story it's like you know the manic street preachers got signed in the the dirty backstage basement here though they signed their first major record deal you know as i say cold play get picked up here and then there's bands that you know in covid we found more flyers, like at the drive in played here after, they only stayed together for that one record they did Saturday Night Live famously and then kind of fell out and broke up.

29:01They played a show here for five pounds on the last run. Green Day did their Kaplunk release show here by accident.

29:12And those stories just carry.

29:14Steve:Stuart had a question.

29:16Stu:Well, it kind of follows on because you were talking about filling rooms. I'm going to ask that, how have audiences been? I mean, you mentioned 14 to 18-year-olds fizzling out, which sounds worrying, but how have you been finding audiences when you do have the shows on? I mean, is there still, is demand still there to kind of come out and see bands? I think the demand is there. It's just the financial worry. So, you know, we've all got families with kids and we have to see it from their perspectives. If they're struggling to make ends meet at home, the last thing on their mind is disposable income to go on a night out.

29:50So, you know, we've seen a shrink of about 30 % on shows here. So historically there'll be bands, you have your staples that come to join us every year and sell it out and they're happy to exist at this level and they don't need growth. Like, you know, they figured out a way to make it work. They play enough small venues and, you know, they don't pay any merch rates and stuff like that. But now we're seeing that those bands that historically sell it out every time are now coming back and doing 160 tickets. So there's like this 40-person drop-off. And you're going, oh, well, where have those people gone?

30:29And no one really has the answer because there's factors of everything. It's like the younger kids are attracted to the bigger thing. So if they want to go to Oasis at Wembley Stadium, they're more than happy to pay 250 pounds for that because they want to go to the bigger thing but the problem is that there's those kids aren't working their way backwards it's it's they're going to these bigger shows and arenas and things and and that's it um and then the conversation comes up about ticket prices and then you know everyone starts saying it's too expensive to attend these gigs and i was like yes at that level it's i agree it's too expensive for families and 16, 18-year-old kids to attend, but they can go down the road and go to a show for£10.

31:18But the problem is, is the attention. How do you get these kids' attention with us?

31:27Steve:Sorry. Yeah, sorry, because I'm jumping in because you mentioned MVP and it's probably a good point to come back to it. Music venue properties, by the way, that's what MVP is. and acquired the joiners, I think it was November, wasn't it? This is part of their Own Our Venues campaign where anyone can invest in it. You can basically buy shares, which... So you buy shares in Own Our Venues. You're essentially buying shares in all the venues that they buy. You've got a tiny... You've got one brick of every building they've bought. So you've got bits of all these... The pub in Newport, you've got a brick there.

32:06Steve:we've now got a brick at the joiners what what practically well what prompted the interest did you go to them or did they come to you because obviously the idea is basically if we if we own the venue then we can take away some of the well we hopefully you know you don't have that landlord moment where all of a sudden they say you're out in three months the lease is up or the rent is up so that obviously helps with the finances but it is about bringing venues into you know into community control but what what happened what was the story did you did you find them up and say we're done unless someone someone helps us yeah so it got to this has actually been going on for a year so the venue is officially purchased like i think october end of october this year and then we celebrated it in november but it was actually october 2024 um and the landlord was like well the lease is up so we're going to look at turning this into uh either commercial or the way i was like cool let's just try and get this through as quickly as possible but then there was you know the building had to be surveyed uh all the legal side of things and there was there was the landlord structural engineer and then there was our structural engineer and then there was mvp structural engineer and they were all trying to value the building obviously the building's over 200 years old so it's built in like 1810 so there's so much damage on the roof that needs to be fixed so there was drones flown up there so we could take pictures of everything and then you know the schematics of all the floors and the beams and the wood is like 150 years old under the mosh pit so it's now bent like this when you actually look at it so uh that needs to be replaced in the summer so yeah so there was a lot back and forth and everything came through and i I said, look, if MVP doesn't take it, then the venues, if that doesn't happen, the venue's essentially done because he will just sell it for development.

34:08There were some very tense moments of him not communicating for months to try and get more money out of us, the things. And yeah, me and Matt and the other guys at MVP and MVT were having conversations for hours about how to get around this without it falling out of our hands. We had to be quiet about it, but professional and then try to protect it. And then eventually we came to an agreement because there's a lot of damage on the buildings. It's going to need like 200 or 300 grand worth of repairs, but then it will be fine for the next it'll be protected and and secure like forever structurally for the next like 40 50 years or

34:52Steve:whatever yeah wow it sounds so nerve-wracking though yeah yeah we got it over the line thanks to everyone's efforts and uh yeah now it's it's in the hands of the community which is ultimately that from day one when i came in here in 2013 that was all i wanted was the joiners just to stay as the joiners and we were still in debt from all the way up until uh covid it took me until uh february 2020 to pay off the previous owner's debt of that 67 grand and then the month after was was locked down crumbs we're slapping the teeth yeah yeah completely bonkers you couldn't write it and i was like cool at least we're back to zero and then that's happened.

35:43Steve:Do you feel more optimistic? I mean, given some of the challenges, which it doesn't matter who owns the venue or who's booking the venue, there's a lot of things that need to happen in the culture of grassroots touring to answer some of the problems and the challenges. But do you feel now more optimistic, obviously, now well at least you know the possibility you're shutting down next week has gone away that gives you some sort of stability i imagine does that make you hopeful for the future yeah 100 it's more like you know the the worry in the summer like once the sale went through you know and matt phomey and was like that it's signed it's you know it's done and it's like this huge relief off of your back, which is like, you know, for like eight, 10 years, been like at any point, at that point before the MVP deal came in, the joiners was just like a month to month thing, where on paper you're going, well, I can afford to pay.

36:46There were months, Stephen, where I did, there were summers where I just didn't pay myself for three months because there was no money. So I just work for free constantly. So you're just volunteering your full-time job as a passion project in order to keep the venue afloat. Because if you're the venue operator, you're aware that if you take money out of the venue, you're just going to put it further and further in debt. So now I don't need to do that. But yeah, in terms of planning for the future, the building is totally secure and MVP is amazing and all the people that invested, absolutely amazing.

37:21And I hope one day maybe we can give them all a brick each when we do the refurb.

37:26Steve:uh that's that's that's what i'm in it for an actual brick with your initials etched into it okay perfect yeah that's that's what that's that's what we want i think we're we're out of time thank you so much for talking to us and for giving us you know such a well you know for such clarity on you know what it's like sitting at your desk which it sounds like you do for hours and hours and hours and hours. It's not, as you've just heard, dear listeners, it's not an easy gig, this. Ricky, thank you very much. We wish you all the best. Thank you. Thank you.

38:30Thank you.