America Has a Moral Problem, Not a Political One — with David Brooks

25:33Trivial example, my kids happened to gravitate despite my gene pool. They were all good athletes. And they gravitated toward positions that were maximally humiliating. So my two boys were pitchers. And when you're a pitcher and the other team is scoring runs, you're just alone out there on the mound. And then my daughter was ice hockey and she played defense. So you're standing there and they just scored a goal, gone around you and scored a goal. And so my role was the world may be criticizing my kid for this or that, but that will not be me. I'm just there to support. I'm just there to support.

26:06And one of the nice things that I did, we didn't really push them, pressure them into this meritocratic madness. We let them have their own lives. And so, you know, and I see this in my students. I'd say 20 % of them, when they do something the mom and dad think is right and will lead to a prestigious career, the beam of love gets strong. And when they do something off course that mom and dad think will not lead to success, the beam of love is withdrawn. And so that's called conditional love. The most important relationships of their life are conditional. and those students are fearful and risk averse because they don't have that secure base.

26:43The thing I would do differently, it's taken me really my adulthood to get out of my head and into my heart and to be a little less cognitive and a little more emotional and emotionally expressive. And that was not how I was raised. You know, I was not, I had, I think we had a loving home, but we never said I love you to each other. That would never have happened in my home. And I did say that with my kids And I remember once my mom looked at me playing with my kids and she said, have you raised your kids in the opposite way that you were raised? And I thought, yeah, pretty much, pretty much. But I should have been more emotionally open to them and more emotionally expressive.

27:23That's taken me a lifetime. And I think with age, you get a little more emotionally vulnerable. And even today, it's hard for me to be as emotionally expressive as I feel with them. Because, you know, once you get a relationship, you lock in a certain mode of communication. It's hard to break out of the way you're traditionally relating to each other. A lot of men relate to that. And that is, and I'm trying to understand why. And I think it's more than just the way you're, the household you were raised in. It's society teaches you to be a man. And part of being a man is to be stoic. And that somehow if you're emotive, it makes you weaker.

28:06That emotional expression, quite frankly, is sometimes conflated with being homosexual. At least that's how I was raised. The very sensitive guys were likely probably not sleeping with women and less masculine. And that we conflated being expressive and emotional with what at the time was something perceived as negative. And I'd like to think that's changing a little bit, but I still very much struggle. And I like what Cindy Gallup says, that the greatest wasted resource in the world is good intentions that you don't articulate. And do you think that men still have, do you think things are getting better?

28:54Yeah, vastly, I think so. If you go back to the 1940s, it had good sides and bad sides. It was very hard for men to express their love for their kids or even to demonstrate it. And they didn't feel a particular need. The positive side of that is there was a lot more self-effacing behavior. There was less ego. There was less display, less performance. I had a friend who wrote speeches for George H.W. Bush, the elder who was raised in that World War II era. and the speechwriters would write these paragraphs on how asking George W. Bush, H.W., to talk about himself, what a great guy he was and how he was going to make a great president.

29:31And he would cross out those paragraphs. He said, I'm not going to brag about myself. They said, you're running for president. You have to tell the country how good you are. And he finally did it. He read the paragraph and his mom called him up the next day and said, George, you're talking about yourself. And so there was a sense you don't talk about yourself. Joe DiMaggio, when he hit a home run, he did not do a bat flip. So that emotional reticence had an upside. I thought it was elegant, gentlemanly, but it had a ferocious downside. And I think it's changed in part because women are more powerful in the culture and they demanded it.

30:03But it's also changed in part because of what we've learned about the brain. There was a prejudice which stretches all the way back to Plato. That reason is reliable and wise. and the passions are these wild horses that run out of control. And your job as a rational person is to suppress the passions. The last 30 or 40 years of cognitive sciences taught us that's complete nonsense. That if you, people who suffer lesions where they can't process emotion, they're not super smart Mr. Spocks like on Star Trek. They can't make decisions because your emotions assign value to things. And if you can't assign a value, you can't decide what you like.

30:41and your desires, your conation, that pushes you in the direction where you want to go. And so if you want to be a wise person, it's not enough to be a rational person. You have to be wise about reading your own emotions. And I think that the shift in that science has made emotional processing seem more relevant, but also more important. And we're little less prejudiced that the emotions are these primitive, stupid things. Your emotions are very smart. They put the mind in a frame of reference so you know how to think about things. And so learning how to read your body turns out to be just tremendously important.

31:19Knowing when your heart is racing, when your anxiety, knowing a thing called emotional granularity, which is the ability to tell the difference between adjacent emotions, between frustration, anxiety, angst, anger, and stress. And if you can tell the difference between your different emotional states, you're just a lot wiser about how to operate in the world. I have someone very close to me who has been struggling with panic attacks. And the first session, this person, the psychologist said, you're not in touch with your emotions. And that's easy to say, but how do you, are there hacks or practices for reestablishing those connections?

31:59Yeah, I would advise a recommended book by Mark Brackett, who's at Yale, called Permission to Feel. And he says you should check out your mood meter, what he calls it. It's an opportunity to reflect you. You're probably either high pleasure or low pleasure, high energy or low energy. So if you're low pleasure, high energy, that's anxiety. and so you you if you just pause in the course of a day say where am i where do i put myself on the mood meter which is basically a chart with four quadrants and you can say i'm feeling uh i'm feeling good but low energy and that's tranquility and then you the process of naming your motion giving a label to it is a tremendously powerful tool because you want your emotions to be your advisor and not your master to tell you, you know, here's what you're feeling.

32:52Here's what your emotions are measuring. Are you moving toward your goals or away from your goals? And so you want to know that information, but you don't want your emotions dictating where you go because then they'll spiral out of control. So the mood meter is a good one. Reading literature is one. If you've got young people, there's the activity they can do in school that is most likely to increase their emotional awareness is drama, is playing a role in theater. And that really has these big effects because you have to put yourself into not only the mind of another person, but into the heart and soul of another person.

33:27And that's a revolutionary experience for a lot of people. You have a new podcast about the moral and philosophical underpinnings of human decency. Curious how you so far distinguish or the differences you've observe, between trying to communicate. I mean, your superpower is that you make people feel things. You articulate ideas that resonate with people and you make them feel something. I think you've mastered that in the written word. I think it's different. I write things and I do stuff things on podcasts. And I find that the ability to resonate with people emotionally is a different skill across those mediums.

34:06One, have you observed that and how, if and how, have you changed your approach and what do you find is working or different about the medium of podcasting versus the written word? Yeah, well, I'm still hiring my team, so we haven't actually launched the podcast. So it'll launch hopefully later in the spring. So, but it's a very interesting observation, which I frankly had not thought about. I will say I do a fair bit of public speaking and I would say what I've done, I've made my writing to be more like my speaking. And my rule of speaking is, first of all, I try to begin every speech with some jokes, because when the audience is sitting there, when they first get there, they're unconsciously asking themselves this question, is this guy going to suck?

34:51And if you can tell a bunch of jokes the first five minutes, yeah, then they can relax and they can say, okay, he's not going to suck. But then I watched Bryan Stevenson, who I hope everybody knows Bryan Stevenson, and he frees people from falsely accused death penalties. I watched him give a speech, and I learned it's impossible to put too many stories in a speech. So it's story, point, story, point, story, point. Parker Palmer, as an educator, said, my job is to find little stories that make big points. And so the way I think of a speech, and I don't know if you think of a podcast this way, I hadn't thought about it this way, is like I'm a big Bruce Springsteen fan.

35:28So I model my speeches on Springsteen concerts. When does he do a happy song? When does he do a sad song? When does he build to a crescendo? And so a speech like a concert is a series of three to five minute emotional moments. And so how you structure those emotional moments determines whether you're giving a good speech or a bad speech. Now a podcast is a little different because it's a conversation. But I find one of the things great podcasters do is that they set an emotional tone. That it's so powerful to do different people's podcasts because they totally different emotional tones. And some people, it's a warm, some people in some podcasts were the students were learning with each other.

36:12And some were the arguers who were debating each other. And some were just sharing each other's lives. I have a friend named Kate Bowler who's a great podcaster. And she just like, she went through really, and she's going through rough cancer. And so it's just sharing of a life. Not to name drop, but the second most famous person who interviewed me this week was Oprah. You're the first, obviously. Oh, thank you. Yeah, me and Oprah, I get that a lot. But, you know, she exudes a kind of warmth. So I think it's really more the host who probably sets the emotional tone than the guest. We'll be right back.

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38:54We're back with more from David Brooks. Well, let's, you know, I want to talk a little bit about politics. In our presidential elections, America, I think, has a very healthy tendency to go the other way. We're like, okay, we tried this. Now let's try this. and we're like, okay, we had Thai food, I'm up for Mexican. We just don't do two meals in a row. So based on that, do you think there's an opportunity? As I said to you when we were off mic, I just interviewed Senator Chris Murphy, and he talked about, I asked him to differentiate himself from the rest of the Democratic field if he were to run for president, and he talked about common good capitalism.

39:36And you and he share some, I don't know, an approach to decency and putting decency and humanity at kind of the center and then working outward in terms of public policy. And do you think that there's a chance if there's the same pattern that we might end up with someone who goes the other way and is just very caring, demonstrates more what I call traditional feminine qualities, very sensitive? do you think that's a real possibility in terms of who ends up occupying Pennsylvania Avenue the next time? I think it's an intense likelihood that, you know, one of the great, one of the things that we're in a rough period, we're in a period of the last, especially what Trump said about Iran, about the Pope, all that is, I found it, it is produced in me as an American, just shame, moral injury and shame.

40:27It's felt brutal. And yet the good thing is culture changes really fast. So you think of the 1950s. It was a time of conformity. It was a time of crew cuts. And I'm now sitting at the University of Michigan. In 1962, a bunch of kids from the University of Michigan went to Port Euron, Michigan, and issued something called the Port Euron Statement. And that began the 60s shift in the culture. So to hell with that. We're going to have personal liberation. We're going to have individual freedom. We're going to get rid of, try to reduce racism, reduce sexism, we're going to shift the culture. And so the shift in culture from the 1950s to the 1960s was epic.

41:06If you looked at the high school yearbooks in 1965, all the guys had crew cuts. In 68, half the guys had crew cuts, half had long hair. By 75, they all had long hair. So it's a shift from a group collective culture to a very individualistic culture. And that can happen super fast. I remember when I was a kid, I loved New York Jets. And Super Bowl III was a competition. That's rough. Yeah, I know. Well, now I've switched. I'm an opportunist. But Baltimore Colts quarterback, Johnny Unitas. Crew cut, 1950s guy. On my team, Joe Namath, Broadway Joe, playboy, swinger. He wrote a memoir called I Can't Wait Until Tomorrow Because I Get Better Looking Every Day.

41:46And so you see how quickly culture can shift. And it shifted again in the 80s with the Reagan and all that. And so when I think about what's about to happen in the 2028 election, I think America's going to say, enough. I don't care if you like Trump or don't like Trump, but this walk through carnage and contention and bitterness and corruption enough. We want the exact opposite. So I think Gavin Newsom is being an idiot for being Trump-like on the left. And I think what America is going to hunger for is not only a policy opposite of Trump, but the moral opposite of Trump and the social opposite of Trump and the emotional opposite of Trump.

42:26And so I don't know if it's Buttigieg. I don't know if it's Cory Booker, but Cory Booker exemplifies the kind of upbeat, positive, loving spirituality that I think is the opposite. I don't live in my home city of New York. If I did, I would vote against Soren Mundomini all day because I disagree with him on every issue. But I really have warm feelings toward the guy because he smiles when he talks. He's having a good time. He's an upbeat kind of guy. And that's the emotional tone that will be opposite of a guy like Trump who rarely smiles unless it's for a fake smile and never laughs because he can't trust himself to have a spontaneous emotion.

43:11So I think the cultural shift is going to be head spinning in 2018. I hardly ever watch TV, but one of the few things I do watch, but I watch it on YouTube, is Brooks and Capehart. I really enjoy your commentary and your colleague there. And also, I think the moderator does an outstanding job of guiding the two of you. You said recently on NewsHour that the media's business model has become just bashing Trump and that outlets keep doing it without always having something new or interesting to say. Well, one, I want you to expand on that. And how much of that has to do with the state of media versus Trump himself?

43:49Is it just that there's money in it? Because it does feel, my sense is the Democratic Party at some point has to transition from indignance to ideas. and give us your sort of state of play in terms of media and this trump bashing industrial complex yeah well it's so easy like we all know that we don't we shouldn't write to the ratings like everybody in media these days knows how many page views or you can it's very easy to find out or what how many people you know watch the podcast so you can you put metrics in front of people they will follow them. And candidly, when I was a columnist, I would write some columns that wouldn't get, you know, they were columns that meant a lot to me.

44:31And sometimes during the Obama years, I would write a column toward one person, toward Obama, and they wouldn't necessarily get big readerships. But if I read a few in a row, which are not like super popular, I feel a little antsy, like, oh, I want to be up there on the leaderboard. And so I would write one that I would know would do well with audience. And that's just, that's a corruption. We're all in businesses where there's the right thing to do, and then there's what the incentive structure wants you to do. And we all have to navigate those kinds of differences. And so I think that's been a problem.

45:04And then for some reason, there's a lot of people out there who just want to hear that Donald Trump is a schmuck. And they want to hear that. They started wanting to hear that in 2015, and it's now 11 years later, and they still want to hear that. I don't quite get it. I get a little bored with it, but the audience is out there for that. And so I think that's one of the failings of the media. And I should say, you know, it was a total honor to work at the New York Times. It's a total honor to work at the Atlantic. There are so many great journalists that were awe-inspiring. I was so proud to be associated with them.

45:34But the other two flaws, I think, in the media that are not the flaws of a moment, but are the flaws of decades, is that when I started as a police reporter in Chicago, a lot of the reporters, the older guys I was working under, had never gone to college. And they were high school. Being a reporter was a working class profession. It was not necessarily a college person's profession. And now it's very much a college person's profession. But even more so, somebody did a study of the editorial staff at The Times, The Post, The Journal, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, and 55 % of the employees went to the same 32 elite colleges.

46:20And that's not only true in the media, that's true in Hollywood, that's true in law, that's true in corporations. So we have become a ridiculously unrepresentative sample of the country in all sorts of elite professions. And that's a problem. And then related to that is we do not have enough Trump supporters on our staffs. And that's not necessarily because we want to, but it's very hard to find Trump supporters who follow the professional standards we demand. Because a lot of Trump supporters said, screw you, elite. And not only that, screw you, the whole epistemological theory you walked in on.

46:58I don't play by your rules. And so we can't have them on because they don't play by the normal rules of honest journalism. And so it's hard to find Trump supporters who can follow the standards that we insist on. And I think in those ways, we become off kilter. And it's ways my profession can reform itself. What's your media diet? When you wake up in the morning, what are your go-to sources? My first read is something I've become addicted to called News Items by John Ellis, which is an agglomeration site by a guy who was a longtime TV producer. And basically, he does no Trump bashing. He does the substantive issues of the day.

47:43So for in times like this, there was a new report on AI. So he had like five items on what we're learning about AI. Then he'll do war reporting, how the Chinese are doing in their own AI efforts. And then it's all linking to pieces in like the FT, the New York Times, Washington Post, but also Eurostat News, these Middle Eastern specialty sites, academic reports. And so I really feel I'm getting the substance. And I've really become a fan of news items by John Ellis. It's not much. It's like 10 bucks a month. It's a sub stack. So I do that. And of course, I do look at the mainstream, the Times, the Post, the Journal.

48:22I think the Journal is doing very well, by the way. I can say that now that I don't work for the Times. They had a story, for example, the other day on comparing millennial incomes to boomer incomes. And in many ways, even though we think millennial and Gen Z are doing much worse, in some ways they are, in a lot of ways they're not. So I really gravitate towards stories that will give me those kind of big social picture. And then I read a lot of sub-stacks. I mean, I read some of the most common ones. There's Noah Pinion, a guy named Noah Smith, Matt Iglesias, people like that. There's a guy named Damon Linker, who I like.

48:55And so a lot of my reading is off the normal media diet. And two people I really have come to like, like Noah Smith or Damon Linker, Andrew Sullivan, people like that. What are your thoughts on how social media and AI have impacted media consumption and generally this notion of decency and humanity? My views on AI are partly colored by the fact that I just so enjoy it. I've had so many good conversations with Claude over the last couple months. I had one yesterday I'm writing about resentment and it introduced me to a thinker. I'd never, what I, I prompt it with, who are the major lines of thought on this subject?

49:41And then it gives me them. And I say, please summarize these people's thoughts. I never ask it to think for itself. I just want to think, tell me what other people have been thinking. And then I ask, what books should I be reading to really understand? And then it gives me the books. And I learned so much. I learned about philosophers I've never heard of. I learned lines of thought I've never heard of. It's really good at drawing from 3 ,000 years of intellectual history and saying, you should look at this. This person is connected to that person, and that person is connected to this. And it's fantastic.

50:09My main concern is that, let's say, 20 % of humanity have what they call the high need for cognition. They like to think. And if you're on a train or a bus and you look over and somebody's doing a really hard puzzle, that person likes to think. They like hard mental challenges. And I think that 20 % will use AI to think a lot more, and their mental and cognitive capacity and productivity will be astounding. I think 80 % of humans, I'm just guessing, don't like to think. They're what the psychologists call cognitive misers. So they'd rather not. And so they can use AI to substitute for their thinking.

50:48And some of the new research that has just come out in the last couple days suggests that the decline in motivation to think among people who use AI is massive. that people just do not, not only do they not want to think, they lose the capacity to think hard. And I relate to this. Sometimes I'm on a road trip and I'm taking a whole bunch of turns, left turn, right turn, this exit, that highway, this highway. And I think I used to have to do this using a map, a paper map. And that would, I think that's impossible. How did I ever do that? And I am 100 % confident I am incapable of using a map to do a complicated trip today.

51:34I've lost that ability. And you extrapolate that out to all sorts of cognitive tasks. And what you get is a massive loss of cognitive ability. And what you wind up with, which is a, we have a caste system in economics and education. But a caste system where you have 20 % are cognitive superstars and 80 % are cognitive backward. word, you've got problems. My son did something that really impressed me. He's 18. And he asked me, we live in London. The other day he asked me, he said, I'm meeting a friend on Kensington High Street. Do you know a good coffee shop there? And I said, no, just ask AI. And he said, no, I don't ask AI for simple stuff.

52:13I'm worried I'm not going to be able to do this on my own. And it just struck me. I'm like, maybe there is hope. I've just gotten so lazy. And now my ability to discern through simple questions. Is that part of your brain, you know, if you don't use it, you lose it. What is your approach to social media? Do you use social media to spread stuff, to learn, or do you not use it at all? I did a lot. I said some stupid stuff, which got me in trouble. So I scaled back after that. And then once Elon took over, it sort of all fractured. And so I'll follow Twitter and I'll especially follow, I do political Twitter.

52:50I force myself to have half of my people are, Blue, half a red. And some of the MAGA people really annoy me, but it's important that I encounter them. And then I do AI Twitter and I do New York Mets Twitter, which is my baseball team. So I do that. I don't do, I haven't been on Facebook in years. I've never been on Instagram. I'm not on TikTok. I find it too addictive. And so my social media is down. And I find like your son, a lot of young people understand what's happening. They don't need Jonathan Haidt for, God bless him for what he's doing. But they don't need them to explain what's happening.

53:24And I visit a lot of high schools every year, and I've never met a student that's not happy with the phone vans. They love the phone vans. And your son is right to be suspicious of AI, using it as a cognitive crutch, because it really is going to be damaging. What box has not been checked for David Brooks, personally and professionally? What if I mentor some young men, and I say, figure out where you want to be in 10 years and then reverse engineer. Actually, I say five years. And then reverse engineer back the series of actions that you need to take to get there and start. And reverse engineer them to the most kind of trivial, easy things and just start on them.

54:02What box is left for you to check? Yeah, in that circumstance, I always say, asking what do I want to do with my life is too big a question. My question is, if the next five years is a chapter in your life, what's the chapter about? And then I always tell young people in particular, three adventures a decade. Try three new things a decade. Like I have a son who was in the military. He taught a little kindergarten in Nairobi. He worked at a sports camp. He did a little business. And then he became a fourth grade teacher, which is, I think, what he'll spend his career on. And so he had at least three adventures through his 20s.

54:36And so if you have children in your 20s, chill out and let them have their adventures. Life is long. They're probably going to be working until they're 75. So let them have their adventures so they figure out what they really want to do. so that that's my one piece of advice you know my um i another professor who said what distinguishes people is not their opinions it's not their iq it's not their ethnicity it's the ruling passion of their soul and so it's really important for us all to know what is at this moment in my life what's the ruling passion of my soul and what i love most right now you know i'm like i don't know if you're like this but i tell young people remember when you were 13 and horniness came into your life?

55:17Well, when you get to be about 55, there's a new form of horniness will come into your life, which is called generativity, which is hard to leave a legacy, to give back, to contribute something to society. And so that's kicked in. And my little form of trying to do something good for the world is to figure out how to modernize our thoughts about moral formation and how do you find your purpose and how you think about your own desires. And so I love taking amorphous subjects, like how do you think about your desires? That's a very amorphous subject. And I love reading and studying and researching.

55:55So I get it down to something concrete that I can communicate through stories. And then if I say it to a group of people, I see people writing it down because they find it useful. One of my favorite sayings about writers is writers or beggars who tell other beggars where they found bread. And I'm just working on my shit in public. And if what I'm going through is what other people are going through and I have the time because I don't have a real job, I can find something useful that they find useful too, that's rewarding to me. And so I love doing that. And that's what I hope to do for the next five or ten years.

56:33And then on my podcast, there are a lot of great researchers who we all interview in the media, there are a lot of great teachers who never get interviewed. And these are the people who are great in the classroom, men and women who just know how to talk to young people. They know how to communicate great truths. And I'd love to spend a large part of my podcast talking to them and seeing what they have to offer us. David Brooks is a writer at The Atlantic and a commentator on PBS NewsHour. He's the author of several books, including How to Know a Person, The Second Mountain, and The Road to Character.

57:06I always learn something from you and I try to write it down and I write it several times as a means of trying to cement it in my brain. And the thing I'm taking away from this podcast today is I think a lot about being a dad. And one of my shortcomings is I just know I fall into the trap of trying to put them on this path to what is seen as traditional success. I'm too obsessed with getting them into an elite college. I'm too obsessed with creating what I call SLOPA, and that is connecting small acts of discipline every day to success. Data study. I know you can do better on the ACT. I just can't help it.

57:48And the thing you said that I wrote down five times is let them have their adventures. I'm going to try and remember that. So anyways, thank you. Thank you for that, David. Thank you. And I'm a big fan and follower of the show. So always, whether I'm speaking or just out there listening, I'm part of your conversation. I appreciate that. Thanks, David. This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Laura Janair. Cami Reek is our social producer. Bianca Rosario Ramirez is our video editor. And Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G pod from Prop G Media.

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