Appealing to the Swing States + How to Be a Better Negotiator

26:20And I think it makes a lot of strategic sense. So your background is in data science and messaging. If you were advising the Harris campaign, which I mentioned at some point you will be, what do you think are the core messages she should hone in on? That nothing changes, that we are here to finish the job and that she was proud to serve with Joe Biden. I think that Joe Biden should be one of the most commonly used phrases out of her mouth, because Joe Biden is personally a lot more popular than he is politically to people. They were never able to demonize him, right? They were never able to convince people that he was actually a mob boss.

26:59I'm sure James Comer has been crying for 48 hours straight since the announcement that he won't get to have his Hunter Biden investigations anymore, And and all of that has evaporated. But the American public loves Joe Biden. And I think there's opportunity also to frame the economy, which you said, you know, who wouldn't like this economy? But to talk about the accomplishments of the Biden-Harris administration out of a new messenger. And she has been tight. She has been pitch perfect in the last three to four weeks. And so I think that she's just basically got to take the playbook and she has the same campaign manager.

27:37She has the same campaign chairs as Joe Biden did. And she's got to go out there and do a Joe Biden impression with some coconut flair. Right. That that's what people are looking for at this moment. and I think that she can define herself as different in a lot of the personal moments, certainly talking about reproductive health, where I did feel that he struggled to do that. And some of that is just that men talking about it doesn't really hit as hard. So her doing that, voting rights, galvanizing Gen Z and millennial voters, but be proud of what you've accomplished. And Joe Biden picked her out of a huge field of possible VPs.

28:22And he did it for a reason. And if the listeners haven't heard Joe Biden's call into now Kamala HQ from Monday, they should go back and listen to it. But there's this very sweet exchange where Kamala says, You guys heard it from Doug's voice. We love Joe and Jill. We really do. They truly are like family to us. And we do. Everybody here does. It's mutual. I knew you were still there. You're not going anywhere, Joe. I'm watching you, kid. I'm watching you, kid. I love you. I love you, Joe. It felt like it was supposed to. Yeah, it felt real. Yeah, totally. Yeah, the positioning I would go with is, I'm a prosecutor, he's a felon, and I would just be relentless.

29:09I would say as attorney general of California, I put 740 pedophiles in prison. And then I would just show overlay that with the voiceover with a ton of images of Trump and Epstein. And then I'd move on to as AG, I stuck 300 people in for white collar crime. And I would show Peter Navarro being sentenced. I, you know, for racketeering, I put and then I'd show my I would just literally go. The for profit college scams. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, he's done everything. I shut down all these degree mills, but had I been in New York, I would have shut down a degree mill called Trump University. I would just, I'm the prosecutor, he's the felon.

29:50I think it's absolutely going to deposition, put them on their heels, and they just won't know how to respond. So I want to add to that quickly because I know that we have gone over as well. I totally agree with you. I think if there is a debate, that contrast, old versus young, convict versus cop is important. But you need to also keep in mind that we're talking about swing voters. So those are base plays. But swing voters are going to vote on the traditional stuff. So they're going to be voting on the economy. And there are some of them who are very concerned about the border. And she was in charge of our relationship with Central American countries.

30:28You know, we're not supposed to call her the borders are, but that is what she has been framed as. So I think that if we move too hard into what folks in the heartland feel are ancillary issues that we risk coming off as unserious. So I want all of that, but I really want her to go hard on the stuff that they've accomplished. Like, tell them your insulin costs$35 because of me and Joe Biden. And also, I'm a cop. And I would have put this guy in jail. So it's a it's a line to to walk carefully, but it has to be balanced. Jessica Tarloff is a political analyst and co-host on The Five, Fox's weeknight news program.

31:08She joins us from her home in Tribeca. It's great to have you back on the ground, Jessica, back in New York, and we'll look forward to catching up soon. Perfect. Thanks for having me. We'll be right back for our conversation with Chris Voss. Tuesday on NBC, Jimmy Fallon and Bozema St. John host the highly anticipated new competition show. I hired 10 creatives from all walks of life. They will be battling it out to see who can impress the world's biggest brands. This is a huge opportunity. This is the battle for the next big idea. This is not play play. We're spending millions of dollars. I'm so excited to embark on this adventure with all of you.

31:48Make the best idea win! On brand with Jimmy Fallon. Series premiere Tuesday on NBC. I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the internet last year, and I think this season's lineup is even cooler. And so does my wife, who keeps stealing all my hoodies. Stay fit for the season and Abercrombie's newest arrivals. Shop NFL by Abercrombie in the app, online, and in store.

32:22This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold-out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org. Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40 % alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.

32:58welcome back here's our conversation with chris voss the ceo and co-founder of black swan group and former lead fbi hostage negotiator chris where does this podcast find you i'm at my house in vegas you live in vegas i'm willing to admit that so let's jump right into it you tweeted recently, as a lead former hostage negotiator in the FBI, I will say with certainty that the level of manipulation by the mainstream media should not be overlooked when we look back on what exactly led to this moment. And you were referring to the failed attempted assassination of Trump. What did you mean by that? Well, principally, you know, I thought about when I put that up and also since, in point of fact, I believe the media professional wants to go.

33:45and sort of across the board. It's really become accepted in any interviews. Somebody sticks a microphone in somebody's face and said, can you believe so-and-so said this about you? And it's a little bit like, I remember doing this when I was in college, trying to instigate a couple of my friends into getting into a confrontation. Can you believe that he said that? Are you going to take that? You know, this instigating that comes from the side And if we have some reliance on the media overall, we don't think of them as instigators, you know, then just like when I was whispering in my friend's ear, people say to themselves, yeah, you know, yeah, that's right.

34:26And it's an incitement, unfortunately. They're instigators. When I was with the FBI, we were preparing for a gathering in the G20 in Canada, I believe it was at the time. And they were talking about the preparations for the predictable demonstrations. And so in preparation for the crowd, they said, for the gathering, they said, you put a thousand peaceful demonstrators someplace, a thousand. And then you just put six professional instigators around. in strategic locations. And it'll take a peaceful demonstration and turn them into a violent mob. Six people. And I've really been thinking about this a lot.

35:11And fortunately, the media's professional instigators. And they look for the opportunity to pour gasoline on smoldering coals and hopefully turn it into a fly. And point of fact, it's a contributing factor. I like the framing there that they're sort of they're in the business of instigating or taking the heat up, not taking it down. I would say that's the same as true online, but even worse. If I look at my comments in my feed on social media platforms, it feels like it's a bunch of people in the third grade surrounding two kids who are barely even having words and then screaming fight, fight, fight.

35:50and I wonder and I'm curious what your thoughts are that if I were a bad actor a foreign entity the GRU or the CCP I would absolutely employ the strategy to just get us fighting with each other yeah well we'd do it it's kind of the there are no Marcus of Queensbury rules on international combat I mean the intelligence agencies globally are always trying to stir up discontent and within the camps of the enemy to keep them confused so that they don't get rallied against us. So let's get back to how do you think the U.S. government should be negotiating with nations at war? What advice would you have?

36:27Biden has essentially said that he's going to focus a lot of his energy on his remaining time on trying to end the war in the Middle East and bring the hostages home. What advice would you have for him or generally speaking in the U.S. as it tries to negotiate with nations that are at war?

36:47Everything you've been doing up to now has been stupid. Unfortunately, argument has become a synonym for negotiation. And it's a horrible synonym. It shouldn't be there. People just want to make arguments. And that's advocated principally by lawyers. Lawyers want to make arguments to call themselves negotiators. We don't have any better models in many cases other than lawyers that make arguments. And great negotiation is invisible, so you don't see it. The only time Biden ever did anything foreign policy-wise that I was really impressed by, and he did it very early in the administration, so what a government should do is not let the other side get caught off guard if you're going to say something they don't like.

37:30And Biden was going to make a statement recognizing the genocide of the Armenians, I believe, which is largely placed at the, the blame is placed at the feet of the Turks. And what he did was he let the leader of Turkey know it was coming. You know, we're going to say this, you're not going to like it, don't want you to get caught off guard by it. And the president of Turkey's response was remarkably muted. And professional instigators in the media said, can you believe he said that? You know, what do you, what do you think about Biden saying this blame place, placing his blame on him? And, uh, he'd been warned that advance.

38:11So he, he wasn't, he wasn't upset about it. It didn't turn into the, a flame that the, the media was trying to get it to turn into the argument, you know, the kids around the other kids in the school yard going fight, fight, fight. So, and very few politicians have really taken a cue from that to at least, if you're going to say something that your counterparts aren't going to like, then don't let them get caught off guard. At least don't blindside them. And I think that's probably the first move international. People want to be warned when bad news is coming. It's one of the basic tenets of the black swan method day to day.

38:50I might have something negative to say. I want you to be able to brace yourself before I say it in advance. How do I do that when you don't feel attacked. How you feel is, I'm just trying to tell the truth. Again, to make analogy to what's going on in the media and social media today, there's a great seeking for truth. There's truth seekers and truth tellers. And a lot of people disguised as truth tellers are really just leveling accusations. But some of the people who have been around for a longer time are really just, you know, let's stop the accusations. Let's start thinking about what's the truth.

39:25Let's try to speak the truth. And if you can say it any other way, the other side is not offended by, then you're probably going to want to try. Something you said sort of resonates or I think has relevance with relationships. I've always thought that the thing that really puts a strain on relationships is not bad news, but surprises. Like it's one thing when, all right, the investments have gone really bad and you're in charge of the investments. But what I think people get really upset with is they've been bad for a year and they've been getting worse. You waited until now to tell me. Do you think a lot of this has relevance with personal relationships?

40:01Yeah, absolutely. I see all this is relevant to personal relationships. Negotiation is relevant to personal relationships. We hear all the time, Never Split the Difference is a great parenting book. I hear back from women that for the first time, my husband, it feels like my husband's listening to me. And then, so first of all, what does it mean to actually listen? And then secondly, how do we eliminate the surprises from the other side? People are remarkably resilient and they're not getting caught off guard. And it doesn't take a lot. And fortunately, people blindside other people not out of bad intent because they don't know how to tell the truth or they're trying to fix the problem so that it never hits the other person.

40:48So it's never, as rarely is it as a result of a bad heart, if you will, these are mistakes of the head, not of the heart, because people just don't know. You know, if I could just warn you it was coming, then you could brace yourself. I want to put forward a thesis. I want to go back to geopolitics and have you respond to it. I think that not only when you're negotiating, you have to recognize you're not just negotiating on the current situation, but you're setting a tone on atmospherics or incentives for future negotiations. And the thing that just really bothered me about the Brittany Griner deal was I personally believe the moment we cut that deal and traded, it was loosely called or accurately called the merchant of death, Victor Boot, that basically that day, Evan Gershkovich was taken prisoner.

41:35That we created an incentive structure that we would trade, quite frankly, someone more, I don't want to say valuable, but that had more, should have been in prison a lot longer. That we just set up an incentive such that we guaranteed more Americans would be falsely imprisoned. What are your thoughts? Well, so first of all, Brittany Griner was absolutely entitled to have the U.S. government come to her aid. when I was the lead international kidnapping negotiator, and Brittany Griner's thing was an illegal detention as opposed to kidnapping. There are differences. But in any event, no American citizen should be abandoned overseas, no matter how they got themselves into it.

42:19In international kidnapping, people were mostly just doing ill-advised behavior. They were putting themselves in really bad positions, trying to trade on a form of camaraderie internationally that was never there. And I don't believe that Brittany Gruner, she may have made a minor mistake, but she's entitled to have the government come to her aid and do everything she can for. So first point there, I'm absolutely in support of the government helping her. So now let's get on to the stupidity of the trade. once the instigators got going in the media, then increased pressure on the Biden administration, cut a deal, cut a deal, cut a deal.

43:03Then it's a matter of patience. When the other side is more patient than you are and the instigators are putting the heat on you, then they can lay back. And I don't think the, I think it was a poor trade. I think, you know, and I don't think the Biden administration has got the market, uh, is holding the monopoly on bad trades. Uh, the Obama administration made bad trades. The Trump administration made bad trades. You know, I thought it was horrible that, um, I thought they beat us in the deal when, uh, the, the AWOL soldier, uh, the Obama administration swapped out five members of the Taliban who were being held in Guantanamo for an American soldier who'd gone AWOL.

43:48Now, that American soldier deserved help regardless of how he went AWOL. It was a bad trade. The Trump administration out there, the Obama administration, when they put 5 ,000 Taliban back on the battlefield because they were in a hurry to make a deal. Anytime a government is in a hurry to make a deal, all the other side has to do is sit back and let time work against them. And so the Brittany Griner thing was no different. It was a bad trade. And then the nature of the bad trade, not the nature of the fact that a trade was made. The nature of the bad trade is what encouraged the poor negotiation, which sets up further negotiations.

44:28you know one of my favorite movies bridge of spies tom hanks love it um we engage in the same kind of traits and as portrayed in the movie the american negotiator uh depicted by tom hanks got the better of the other side and got the better of the other side in the russians same type of trade it wasn't that the negotiations were bad it was how good were the negotiators at the table and not only did uh tom hanks uh character and forgive me for not remembering the real life name of the guy who i have tremendous admiration for he turned around and cut great deals with cuba getting getting massively uh we we we beat the hell out of the cubans in the negotiations after the big pay of picks so it's not negotiation itself that's the problem it's the level of of the negotiators at the table?

45:20The negotiation everyone's talking about is the negotiation with Putin and the negotiation with Hamas, right? If I think of the two highest profile negotiations, maybe that's through an American-centric lens. But one with Putin, you have an autocrat who's not worried about not being reelected, and you have a nation that has just, as a competence, an incredible ability to endure hardship and suffering. You know, it's just, I find, in terms of Russian history, it's shown it's pretty difficult to put pressure on Russia. They don't scare easily. They're willing to put their own people through a lot of pain and suffering here.

45:56So I'd love to get your thoughts there. And then as it relates to Hamas, I even see a bigger challenge, and that is you're not even sure who you're negotiating with or how you even open lines of negotiation and who can even enforce the rules or outcomes of that negotiation. I'd love to give your thoughts or get your thoughts on both of those dynamics. I would agree with some of what you said about Putin and Russia. I mean, I think the guy does worry about getting reelected, which is why he puts so much effort into it. I don't think that Russians would agree if you said that the elections were rigged.

46:30uh you know they support him openly um he's a nationalist and globe globally nationalists are getting a lot of influence um populist nationalist leaders you know they're they're a thousand percent in favor of what's in the best interest of our country it's sweeping europe uh it's the reason that trump is as popular as he is um he's pro uh his homeland Russia has shown the ability to endure. What have they had to endure? They've been invaded more times than they've invaded other countries. They've been invaded by Japan multiple times. They've been invaded by various European countries multiple times.

47:12They've been invaded more than they've invaded other countries. They don't have the natural land barriers, geographical protections the United States had. We've got the most envious geographical setup on earth. You cannot come at us without us either seeing you or you having crossed a ridiculously difficult terrain. Can't come at us from the north, the east or the west. If you want to try to come at us from the south, you've got to work your way through Latin America. It's not, there aren't great ports down there. Russia, on the other hand, has got land bridges that makes it extremely easy to get out.

47:50Their natural resources are not high. I once saw, I read at the beginning of the Ukraine war that somebody dismissively of Russia said, Russia is just Europe's gas station. All right. Empathy. How does that look to the other side? I think that was McCain. It might've been. All right. So if that's true, you're the leader of a country that your principal way to feed your people is an industry the entire world is trying to stop using. So empathy is about not necessarily agreeing with the actions of the other side, but understanding and where they're coming from. And being able to say it to them out loud.

48:28Nobody has, you know, the Western European leaders, the president of France showed up and had audiences with Putin. I promise you that all that guy did if they got a direct meeting with him was tell him why he was wrong. As opposed to, all right, so here's what your problems are. You get invaded. You got no natural defenses. You're worried about whether or not you can feed your people. You're worried about your people starving in the cold and the dark. let's talk about what the problems are on a different solution. Nobody's approached him like that. So I think what he's done, what Russia has done in regards to Ukraine is absolutely wrong.

49:05War is an environmental catastrophe, let alone a humanitarian catastrophe. But a little bit starts with, all right, so here's your motivations. Here's why you're doing what you're doing. Now let's potentially talk about a different course of action. Because as soon as you start talking to somebody about what their motivations are, getting it out in the open air, it helps them clear their head and maybe see war is a short-term catastrophe, whereas economic collaboration is a long-term solution. So that's kind of my take on Russia. Now, and as I continue to babble on, there's a massive amount of influence on Hamas through Qatar.

49:44All the negotiations are currently going on through there. Some of the Hamas leaders are hanging out at Qatar. And there's all, you know, if you really want to talk to Hamas, even if you're an American diplomat, you're going to Qatar. So there's ways to influence them. The real difference, in my view, and I was listening to Jared Kushner giving an interview about the Abraham Accords, and the problem with Hamas and why they didn't participate in the Abraham Accords. And the pro-Palestinian peoples were saying, well, we weren't given a seat at the table. You could have had a seat at the table if you'd have paid table stakes.

50:26And table stakes for that negotiation was everybody that comes to the table gets to keep their job. You cannot come to the table saying, I'm going to put you out of business. You have to agree that the other side gets to keep their job. Hamas has not been willing to say the Israelis get to keep their job. All the Abraham Accords, all the Sunni Muslim countries that signed off to collaborate with Israel, they all said, you know what? If you're willing to negotiate with me in peace and look for an economic settlement where we can all thrive, you get to keep your job. And Hamas has not been willing to say that.

51:08And it's not that they haven't been invited to the table. They say, refuse to pay the table stakes. And in this case, the table stakes are, when you say get to keep your job, you mean saying that we're not going to be totally 100 % committed to exterminating your people? Is that what you're referring to as table stakes? Yeah, yeah. You know, and even in even larger terms, that's the first time the United States has been willing to make that agreement. When the second Iraq war started, and it's easy to criticize it in hindsight. It's a bad move. And I'm not going to go there. But I do remember President Bush giving an address to the American people and saying, this is the opportunity to bring democracy to the Middle East.

52:00And what he didn't know that he was saying at the time was, he was saying to all the Middle Eastern leaders, none of whom are democracies. My goal is for you to lose your job because you're not a democracy and you're going to have to subject yourself to the whims of the votes, just like all the Western European countries do and everybody else. And if you want to collaborate with us, we're going to bring democracy to your country and you're going to lose your job. And that was a mistake. So the other thing about the brilliance of the Abraham Accords and the accords in that particular negotiation was the agreement, you get to keep your job if you come to the table and negotiate with us in good faith.

52:44And so it's obvious with Hamas, but America has made this mistake a number of times in the past. We didn't realize what we were saying. I want to bring democracy to your country, your monarchy. The person on the other side is here and I'm going to lose my job. Why should I do that? Well, let's get back specifically to Biden has said he wants to bring the hostages home. My understanding is there's still five Americans being held hostage. I'm not even sure we understand there's proof of life or not, but obviously it's a priority for, you know, American, the American government to get those five hostages home.

53:22Let's go back to that. What advice or what are the atmospherics here to try and successfully bring these folks home? So first of all, if I could say, when I was a hostage negotiator, our opening principle is war. You can't negotiate in the middle of a riot or a gunfight. And it looks very much like the gunfight's still going on. So to expect effective negotiations in the short term in the middle of a gunfight, you got to get the gunfight stopped. Now, what's the inducement for you to decide to stop the gunfight? Ultimately, it's the people that are supporting them, the economic harm of violence, as opposed to the economic prosperity of peace.

54:07And Hamas continues to stay in the gunfight because of the support they're getting globally. They're winning the PR war. They're intentionally putting their people in harm's way. I don't think we'll get an accurate reports in the media of how upset, how tired the Palestinians are of being human shields for Hamas and getting their people killed. You know, they got a hostage rescue in a residential area and all sorts of quote, innocent people are killed by the Israelis that come in on the hostage rescue. Well, how did those innocent people get placed in harm's way. You know, Hamas is sacrificing Palestinians by the tens of thousands to gain world support, and they're getting that world support.

54:57So, you know, what are the kids standing around them shouting and yelling? There's the Biden administration. They're challenging getting hostages back is calling the rancor that's blaming Israel for a current bloody conflict that they didn't start. That begins to change the perspective of the leadership. Are they winning the PR war? Hamas is winning the PR war right now. That's what's keeping them engaged in what they're doing. I'd love your thoughts on how to take some of these skills and apply them to your relationship with your spouse. And then I'd love to hear, do you have kids, Chris? I got grandkids.

55:37You got grandkids. Okay. I would love specifically to hear lessons to your younger self or a new father on how you can apply these skills to enhance your relationship with your kids. Wow. Okay. Where do we begin? There was a lot of good stuff. It goes from Hamas to more unreasonable third parties when we're talking about teenagers. But let's start with using this as a means of establishing better rules of engagement with your spouse. Well, here's a problem with spouse and children. We've conditioned them that we're not listening. So parents and spouses, we want to flip over to either continue to ask our list of questions to make it sound like we're listening and interested.

56:28or given advice. And a lot of moms start to report that the use of the mirroring skill got their teenage daughters to talk to them for the first time in years. So what's a typical interaction? Kid comes home from school. How was your day? Kid answers. Parent goes immediately to the next question. Well, what that makes a kid feel like is that they weren't listened to. Now, a parent is taught show interest you know i got a checklist to show interest so i can get back to my life it's like a person in the media doing an interview they got a list of questions they're going to run through the questions they're not going to pay attention to the answers and then they're going to move on so how was your day it's been conditioned if mom or dad ain't going to listen so they're going to say fine or i forget because they're not going to get interrogated over that.

57:24I forget is the best one. I forget what it's on. I forget. And then you move on. And the parent is like, why won't my kid talk to me? Well, you got your list of questions. You ain't listening. You've conditioned them that you're not going to listen. The people in our family, we've conditioned each other that we're not listening. So the tiny little two millimeter shift that moms are telling us constantly, I was your day. I forget. If you're going to mirror that, what'd you say? You forget. Not accusatory, but to just repeat what the person said confirms that you heard and you listened. And suddenly the child's shocked, like, wait a minute, you actually paid attention to what I said?

58:10And by the second time they do that, suddenly the kid's opening up. All mom or dad is still in his mirror. And just as we wrap up here, Chris, what do you think are the two or three things that young people should keep in their back pocket as it relates to negotiating, whether it's for a salary or for, you know, a different type of job responsibilities, whatever it might be, are there any sort of go-tos you'd say, look, this is where young people get wrong a lot and they should remember whenever they're in a situation that involves some type of negotiation? You know, if you can show the other person by saying out loud what their perspective is.

58:50That seems like a tangent, inefficient. But just repeating back to them what their perspective is, is breaks log jams. And you don't even, here's the thing, you don't even got to get it right. If you just make the attempt, the other side's going to feel you're collaborating and they'll correct you. They'll help you get it right. You go into instantaneous collaboration, and it doesn't matter what the negotiation is. It could be with your boss. It could be with your parent. You know how they see things. Saying how they see it is not agreeing. And you're going to find that a lot of your logjams are just going to disappear.

59:37Half of them, half of them, I promise you, will go away the minute you start trying to repeat what you think to the other side's perspective. Chris Voss is CEO of the Black Swan Group and the author of the national bestseller, Never Split the Difference, Negotiating as If Your Life Depended on It. He previously served as the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the FBI, as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council's Hostage Working Group. Before becoming the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator, Chris served as the lead crisis negotiator for the New York City Division of the FBI.

1:00:13He joins from his home in the great and underappreciated city of Las Vegas. Chris, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks for your good work, Andrew Sherrush. Scott, thank you very much.

1:00:28We'll be right back.

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1:02:03Algebra of happiness, how to make sure you don't accidentally lose 50 % of your friends. my primary residence for the last decade has been in Delray Beach, Florida. And I would say it feels like a half, but it's probably a third because they stand out to me. But somewhere between a third and a half of our friends down there are not only Republicans, but Trumpers. And I really have a tremendous amount of disdain for President Trump. I don't think he's a good person. I think he's a terrible role model for men. And I think he has tangibly made America much weaker. Not great again. But at the same time, there's a lot of smart people, good people.

1:02:41It's so pedantic and arrogant and quite frankly, just exclusionary to immediately write them off because they support Trump. But that's not what this is about. What this is about is you have to separate, or I would suggest you separate the person from the politics and your own relationships. I remember when I was younger, I was trying to think back when I was dating, when I was a young man, I couldn't tell you what the politics were of anyone that I dated. We just didn't care. And you know what? Those were simpler, happier times. It was one less reason not to find opportunity to form a relationship.

1:03:16And this is what I'm going to suggest you do. And what I started doing about 10 years ago, separate the person from the politics. Do you want to be friends with them? Do you enjoy their company? Do you think they're smart? Do you have things that bond you, whether it's kids going to the same school, whether it's an affection for a certain sport, whatever it might be. It's so difficult to maintain relationships, and it's so important. We don't want to alienate 50 % of the populace just because they don't have the same political views as you. Separate the person from the politics. This episode was produced by Caroline Chagrin, Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer, and Drew Burrows is our technical director.

1:03:53Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prop G Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.