Conversation with Carol Spahn — the Peace Corps and the Power of Service

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1:57Welcome to the 262nd episode of the Prop G Pod. The dog is on holiday. So in place of our regular scheduled programming, we're sharing our interview with Carol Spahn, the director of the Peace Corps. We discussed with Carol the Peace Corps' history and evolution, its adaptation after the pandemic, and the metrics Carol uses to gauge success. Additionally, she shares insights from her own service experience and highlights the transformative impact of stepping out of one's comfort zone. So with that, enjoy our conversation with Carol Spahn. Carol, what does this podcast find you? Easy. Let's bust right into it.

2:31Can you give us sort of the brief history of the Peace Corps, what the mission is, how it's evolved? Absolutely. So Peace Corps was founded in 1961 by President John F. Kennedy, ramped up very quickly on really what was an experiment at the time of putting young people, young professionals into service in communities around the world. and he really asked people, you know, don't ask what you can do, your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. Are you willing? Are you willing to go to Ghana and serve as a doctor? Are you willing to go to a place you've never been and to serve?

3:16And there was an overwhelming response, both from the countries that were approached to see if they wanted to host Peace Corps volunteers and from volunteers themselves. And Peace Corps has been a steady presence in more than 60 countries around the world for the last 62 years and has invited professionals of all ages to go and serve. They live and work in a community. So they integrate into that community. They learn the local language. They live at the level of the people they are serving for two years. And that two years is really important. So it is a significant investment of time in working side by side.

4:06And the premise is that world peace and friendship is not the exclusive mandate of politicians. It is about each and every one of us going and living and working together across difference, creating relationships, creating connections, and that those connections last a lifetime. How has the volunteer base changed or evolved, or has it not? What is the typical Peace Corps volunteer? And I imagine you're going to tell me there's no typical Peace Corps volunteer, but how has the makeup of the people drawn to the Peace Corps shifted since since 1962? Well, I will give you the answer that you expected to hear, which is there is no typical volunteer.

4:54I served as a Peace Corps country director in Malawi for five years, one of the poorest countries in the world. I had a volunteer who was the youngest serving volunteer at the time. She was 20, had been homeschooled, got through college very quickly, decided to do the Peace Corps and the oldest serving volunteer at the time, who was 82. And she said, I was not content sitting on my rocking chair watching reruns. I needed to get out in the world and do something. And I want to encourage everyone to do that and to be a part of something bigger. We have retired teachers, we have retired business people, and we have people who are straight out of undergrad.

5:40And it really depends on what the country's needs are for skilled professionals or just for young, passionate, energetic people who are going to come and engage with their young people. But do the majority have a college degree? Do the majority go on to professional services? Do drop people usually that end up in healthcare? Do a disproportionate number of alum go into government? Great question. So yes, the vast majority do have a college degree, and that is because of the requests and requirements from the host government. So we do our very best to honor the requests that countries are asking us for.

6:22Many of them go on to careers in service, but they also go on to careers in business and other fields. There is a direct pathway into federal service. So volunteers who complete their service get to a year of, sorry, a year of non-competitive eligibility for federal service. So we have thousands and thousands of volunteers and return volunteers at USAID, at the State Department, EPA, FEMA, and a lot of employers who specifically recruit volunteers because they know and understand the skill sets that they bring back from their service. And those skill sets are things like adaptability, flexibility, resilience, intercultural competence, all skills that are desperately needed in today's workforce.

7:18So I think of the Peace Corps as being one of the, it's truly a global brand. It's this iconic brand that's recognized, at least I think every American knows where the Peace Corps is. But how do you measure success? What are your metrics for if they said, Carol, we want you to leave the Peace Corps better than when you found it and you have 10 years. What would the metrics, what does success look like? Is it to promote goodwill towards America? Is it to build skills among the core such that they're better prepared to come back and be good citizens? Is it just to build health and societal infrastructure and nations that maybe don't have access to those types of things?

7:54What would be the metrics you would put in place that would indicate what success looks like for the core? Sure. So it happens at different levels, and I'd like to break it down. So for the volunteers themselves, we are looking at their competencies that they grow and develop over the term of their service and how they then are bringing that service and that service in mind business back to the United States. For their time in country, we are looking at what is the educational achievement of the students with whom they teach? What is the impact on issues like malaria, like HIV prevention? How have we impacted some of those key development needs in country?

8:48But really, as we look long term, the impact of the Peace Corps is much bigger than the impact of any one volunteer in one community for two years. What I see when foreign ministers come into my office and say, when can the Peace Corps come back? We need you back. And by the way, I was taught by a volunteer and it matters to my country because we have this incredible youth bulge. English is the language of opportunity. It's the language of business. And what your volunteers bring is hope and energy and passion and skills that can help us to develop over time. That is powerful. And that's a powerful generational impact.

9:38that generational impact of goodwill towards the United States and, you know, real passion for connecting across difference is very difficult to put in a metric. And there are some people who have tried. There is a research study that shows the impact of volunteers and the corresponding favorability ratings and what happens when that number goes up or down over a period of decades. That is the closest to a metric on the broad scale that I have seen. I would say the longer term impact is more in the intangible goodwill space. And the way I really like to talk about it is. It's goodwill on the balance sheet of the United States.

10:33Having a country that invests money, right? We might build a hospital. That means one thing that people might remember for five years or 10 years. Having an American who shows up in a community, learns the language, integrates into the culture, lives at the level of the people they're with, works side by side with them for two years, that shows that America cares, that people care in countries that are very relationship based. And that human connection is one of the most powerful indicators of this lifelong connection that people then have for the communities where they serve. Where would you describe that the Peace Corps brand, I hate to use the term brand, but where is its reputation in terms of popularity, the number of applicants relative to the number of spots?

11:29How would you describe the state of play around the Peace Corps right now in our society? I would say that the COVID-19 pandemic distorted everything. So when I think about the Peace Corps brand, I think about it on both the demand side. So what are we hearing from countries, as well as what's happening with potential volunteers. We left every country during the COVID-19 pandemic. It was the first time Peace Corps has ever globally evacuated in its 62-year history. As we are sending volunteers back into service, we gave every country the option to opt out. So do you want us back or do you not want us back?

12:18Every single country wants us back. They want us back in bigger numbers. Every country has been impacted by COVID. And we have a backlog of 14 countries that have formally requested volunteers. And these are numbers that I haven't seen before, where countries are asking for a thousand volunteers in their country so that they can put a teacher in every high school. Typically, a country might have 100 volunteers, right? So there's just this insatiable demand around the world. What we are seeing in the United States is the impact of, we'll call it a COVID hangover, right? People are still just sort of coming out of, you know, this COVID pandemic and deciding where they want to move and where they want to go.

13:16So Peace Corps' brand awareness is down because we didn't have volunteers in the field for two years, and they are our best recruiters. At any particular time, we might have had 6 ,500, 7 ,000 volunteers out there telling their stories and encouraging other people to go. So we are building that back up. We have a bold invitation campaign that is out right now, and we're seeing very good results. People want to take action. They want to do something bold and courageous. And Peace Corps is a terrific opportunity for them to really stretch beyond their comfort zone and do something that is transformative in ways they will never imagine.

14:01But it has been tough. And all of the employers, all of the service organizations are facing challenges with recruitment as people decide sort of how they are going to move forward in their lives. Is it a challenge of the number of applicants or similar to the armed services where I think I read somewhere three and four just don't have the skills or the physical strength? And in some, we're creating, we have a disproportionate number of young Americans who aren't emotionally or physically viable for this type of service. Are you having trouble getting applicants or trouble getting qualified applicants?

14:40So I would say it's a complex picture right now. Applications are down and the number of people who we can clear for service is also down. So it's a higher percentage that are not clearing. and we are trying to tease out sort of why people are dropping out of the process. And is that because, you know, they're not ready or is it because they have another opportunity? So it's a mixed bag right now with a lot of shifting dynamics. I mean, this is really interesting. This is an opportunity to do something really important. It's something, it's just a really good wrap. No one says, oh, I don't like that person they served in the Peace Corps.

15:28You just don't ever hear that. It is one of the few things I can imagine that you put on your resume and is impressive to anybody you meet. And generally speaking, it says you're an interesting, credentialed, good person. So it just, A, it's surprising you don't get more applicants. But what is it about why aren't people clearing? Is it you're on the front lines here seeing this application pool? What do you think is happening in our society where people aren't as interested, not as interested? And why do applicants, why is a greater proportion of applicants not kind of up to the task, if you will?

16:07Everything I have looked at does not point to a single factor. And we're digging in. So once someone is invited to the Peace Corps, it is a six to eight month process for them to get legally cleared, medically cleared and ready to go. That is something that just simply takes time. And in this environment, there are plenty of job opportunities, right? A lot of life is happening, right? Right. And people may be questioning their decisions. I don't know. What I do know is that it's a tight job market. And there is a sense of and I forget where I read this something about sort of the impatience, wanting more immediate results.

17:03Another thing I've questioned is the two year commitment, which is a fundamental part of our model. and you know is that something that people start to second guess the the time frame we'll be right back

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19:36Talk a little bit about your own experience. You were a volunteer in Romania. What were the biggest surprises to the upside and the downside around your service? So I entered service having been in corporate America. So I was accounting. I was with KPMG, Pete Marwick. I was doing the corporate thing, worked for a mortgage bank, and then went to Peace Corps in Romania as a small business development volunteer. And I had expected Peace Corps at that point in my life to be in Africa, in Southeast Asia, you know, somewhere doing more hands-on sort of work. And here I was in this post-communist country.

20:19It was four years after the fall of communism. And I had to have my mom send my suits over because I was working in Eastern Europe at a small business consulting center and working with entrepreneurs trying to start up their own businesses as an entire economy was shifting from a state-run economy to private enterprise. And it was a fascinating experience to understand And how communism played in the psyche of people, the distrust that it created and to experience that sort of firsthand, but also to see sort of where those sparks are, where the opportunities were to really engage with the right people.

21:10And anytime you're engaging, you know, in helping start up a new business or anything else, you're ultimately investing in the person. Right. And so it was an exercise in finding the right people who really had the skills and interest in moving forward and creating something new in an economy that was transitioning. And I grew up in the Cold War era, so had lots of preconceptions about what communism meant and what it might have been like to live in that world. That was just a fascinating time in history to be a part of that transition. And you went back 10, 20 years later to be the country director for Malawi.

21:57Is that correct? Yes. What draws you? I mean, you were a successful executive, I imagine had a pretty nice life. I mean, that just can't be easy or that comfortable to head to a developing nation and give up a life of, you know, professional success and the comforts that come along with that. What drew you to that? And did you have kids at the time? And it strikes me that that takes a special type of person that, quite frankly, I have a difficult time relating to. I just like Netflix too much. What drew you to that? I think my first comment to that would be that comfort is overrated. My favorite quote that I shared with volunteers is that, you know, life begins at the end of your comfort zone.

22:51And I distinctly remember standing on the sidelines of my daughter's soccer game. She was high school at the time and she wasn't getting any playing time. And I was getting quite enraged as any good mother, any good soccer mom would do because quite clearly she was the most gifted one out there. And I said to myself, like, this is not This is not what I should be getting enraged over. And when the opportunity came to go back to the Peace Corps, it also came at a time when my brother had reached the end of a five-year battle with brain cancer. And the call came almost around the same time as he was told that there was nothing more they could do for him.

23:49And it was a really powerful moment for me to say to myself and to talk with the family and say, look, this is something that's important to do. and we can do it now or we can do it at a future period. But I did not feel like we were living. I felt like we were going through the motions of a life that is defined by certain norms of society. And I had learned through my Peace Corps experience and through all of the people I'd met throughout that, that there is not one way to live and that there are a lot of rich opportunities to grow personally that outweigh all of the other things that people might care about or think about in terms of success.

24:59And it's, you know, every time I've gone back out into that world. I have just grown in leaps and bounds. My bank account didn't grow, but my life has been personally enriched in so many ways. So when I went back to Peace Corps as a country director, my oldest was going into our senior year in high school, and my youngest was going into our sophomore year and my husband was giving up a job teaching and we sat down as a family and said, oh, this is something that ought to scare you. Um, it's, you know, we would be going to a country where there are, you know, no malls, no movie theaters. You'll go to a high school where there are not great sports teams.

26:01You know, there's a lot at stake here and we're not going to ask you to do it unless you are 95 % in. If you're all in, then, you know, you're not really thinking clearly, but, you know, you need to be all in because this represents a very big change for our family. And they were in. Yeah, I think that's really powerful. So So recognizing, and I'm going to try and summarize and tell me where I have this wrong, recognizing the finite nature of life because of the passing of your brother and acknowledgement that it goes fast and that you need to dictate your life. Stepping outside of what other people expect or what society expects of you does not dictate your happiness.

26:49You dictate your happiness. I find that really moving and really powerful. And it just sort of like hits you like, well, of course, that's the way to live your life, even though most of us don't. The thing I find unusual, quite frankly, is that a sophomore and senior girls agreed to go to Malawi. I find that extraordinary. I can't even imagine my sons would be like, well, are we flying Emirates? You know, they'd start asking questions about do they have PlayStation? I can't even imagine how awful the conversation or weird the conversation would be. So you had 10th and 12th grade girls, and they decided to come live with you and your husband in Malawi for how long?

27:36We were there for five years. The girls were there for—they finished up their high school and went off to college in the U.S. and then came back on their breaks. What was the hardest thing about spending five years doing that? It was very challenging having them in college and so far away so that if something happened, there wasn't an easy way to get to them. And being far from family and all of those things that you miss, all of the things that you would expect that would be challenging living and working in a country like Malawi, had tremendous benefits. And there are so many elements to that that you learn and absorb over time.

28:25So I'll give you an example. Life is obviously very challenging in Malawi. 85 % of the people there are subsistence farmers and regular outages of electricity and water and just all of the basics. Every day, something would surprise me, whether it was a little boy dancing on the street or, you know, the electricity, the water that goes out in the middle of your shower or, you know, just any unexpected thing. Yet every day, the janitor at our office building, who did not make great money, had six kids, would greet me with the biggest smile, a huge wave, and a good morning, madam. And every single day, there was tremendous laughter in the hallways.

29:23And I would ask people, I know you spent the weekend in the hospital with your loved one who has malaria, and I know your lives are hard, and you show up every day with a lot of care and a lot of community. Like, how do you do it? Like, I would show up grumpy, right? I would be grumpy thinking about all of the things I had to do that day until I got this beautiful greeting from the groundskeeper. And they told me, Carol, it's a choice we make for each other. We make a choice to show up every day for each other, knowing that our lives are hard and their lives are hard. and we bring laughter and joy to our days.

30:13And it's not because our lives are easy. It's because it's a choice we make. So you made the leap that I think a lot of us are envious of and you said, I'm going to set the rules for what makes me happy and how I want to live my life. But what is it about this that makes you happy? Is it service? Is it adventure? Is it a sense that you're doing something different? Is it roughing it and feeling a sense of achievement that you've endured this? What is it about this that makes you happy? So I've read and studied a lot about the things that make people happy. And I think at the end of the day, it's purpose and meaning and connection.