Conversation with Fareed Zakaria — The Conflict in Israel and the State of Foreign Affairs

25:04And the Netanyahu government thought this was a head fake, that they were trying to sort of fool them, and they didn't take it very seriously. I can't vouch for this, but this is being reported in places like Haaretz. So I think that some of that dynamic may be at work, but I doubt very much that it would be. Did Osama bin Laden look and notice that 2000 was a very fractious election and the Supreme Court decided it and that's why he went for 9-11? I don't buy that. I think these guys know these countries are strong. What they're looking for, terrorists are always looking for the reaction. They're always trying to bait you into a massive reaction.

25:47So if one of the objectives was to put a wedge between Riyadh and Israel, it just strikes me that, and tell me if you agree with this, that it's worked. And I'm just shocked that both Riyadh and Israel wouldn't make some noises that, no, this isn't working. But it appears as if they've, to a certain extent, if this was the primary objective, they've already achieved their objectives. I think you're right, Scott. I think that at least in the short term, you notice that they're being very, Riyadh is being very quiet. I'll tell you this, a few weeks ago, a Saudi official explained the situation to me.

26:27And he said, and I'm paraphrasing now because it was sort of all off the record, but I think this is the way the Saudis are thinking about this. Look, we are willing to do this and we want to do this because it serves both our interests. But we have to be careful with our domestic population, particularly because the crown prince has been doing a lot of stuff that has been enraging the religious fundamentalists in his country. He's shut down the religious police. He's allowed, you know, movie theaters, restaurants, desegregated every facility where women can be. Women can now drive. Women can leave the country without checking with their male guardians.

27:10All that stuff has pissed off the mullahs. He said, we can't also piss them off by completely abandoning the Palestinians. So we do need some real concessions on the Palestinian front. So he was telling me, you know, that there's a feeling, particularly in America, in Washington, that the Saudis are, you know, completely unconcerned. They're happy to sell the Palestinians down the river. They just want to make a deal with Israel. Now, I think there's some truth to that. That is that they are as frustrated with the Palestinian leadership as anyone who has ever dealt with the Palestinian leadership would be.

27:47They're feckless, corrupt, incompetent. But they know that they've got this issue. They don't, you know, and they're fairly careful about how much they push forward. You know, for example, they've been opening up all this tourism and all this, building all these hotels. They still don't allow you to drink alcohol. And I talked to a couple of Saudi friends of mine, and the point is, you know, it's going to happen. But, you know, you push one of these things every six months. You don't push them all together, and you try to work with those people. So my guess, that's the dynamic here, that the Saudis are going to be very careful.

28:21But I think their national interests are driving them together. So, you know, as long as this doesn't completely explode, and it might, you could see this getting back on track maybe in a year. So if this is a war of perception, as Lincoln said, that you can't win a war without public support and you can't lose one with it. And they're trying, this is a game of perception, trying to evoke sympathy based on what they feel will be an outsized overreaction. And granted, I'm seeing everything through the lens of Western media as someone who has family in Israel, as someone who sits on the board of companies of former Israeli combat veterans who that night were on planes to Israel.

29:03So I have a bias here. But it seems to me that they have vastly miscalculated that the perception of what has gone on here will, I believe that empathy towards Palestine or the Palestinian cause across America and the West had somewhat increased steadily over the last 20 years. and that the perception was negative or increasingly less positive towards Israel. And I feel like the actions of the last three or four days have totally reversed that. Have I misread this situation? I tend to think you're right. I guess I would say I hope you're right in the sense that I think this kind of brutal, savage, barbarous terrorism really has no place.

29:49You can sympathize with the legitimate grievances of Palestinians. You can sympathize with the Palestinian cause. But it seems to me nothing justifies this kind of terrorism. And the barbarism with which they did it, that music festival, dragging women, raping, taking children, all that, I think, will produce the kind of reaction you're describing. Now, it is worth saying, though, that that is not how it's being portrayed, particularly in the Arab world. I've taken pains to try to, you know, to the extent I can, watch and read stuff that is more available and gives you a sense of what's going on outside.

30:31you know, there was some initial shock at just the brutality. But now increasingly what is happening, and this is what I was sort of saying, now what is happening is there is the focus on every building that's being bombed in Gaza, you know, every family that's being dispossessed, you know, the women and children in the rubble. And, you know, my guess is you're going to end up with a very disproportionate body count at the end of all this. Because right now, yeah, you have 900 Israelis killed and several hundred Palestinians. But by the time the Israelis are done with this, just because of the massive superior firepower of the Israelis, you're going to see that Gaza will be devastated.

31:20And that will probably evoke a certain amount of sympathy. So I think remains to be seen. It partly depends on what the Israelis do. And I hope the Israelis think about that issue because, you know, they've bombed Gaza a lot over the last 20 years. It's not clear to me that that strategy works. I would think more about creating a buffer zone, you know, taking essentially annexing a kilometer or so of land so that you make the border impregnable. But there is this desire for, understandable, for revenge almost. And I would hope that that is kept in check. And there's a more strategic idea of like, what is the purpose of this operation?

32:05Yeah, I just, when I see, when I saw these barbaric images, I couldn't, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about young men on the show. And we've always, we've said consistently that the most dangerous person in the world is a young, broke, an alone man. And I see this imagery and I just go back to the same thing that there's too, too many of these young men that have absolutely no, they have just quite frankly, nothing to lose. And have there been any ideas or opportunities to address longer term? I mean, I don't care if it's migrants flooding the U.S. border. It all seems to reverse engineer to an absence of opportunity across young people, which, and I need to say this, in no way excuses what has happened.

32:54But do you think some sort of long-term solution, what is it? Is it economic aid? Is it their own governance rights? If Israel says, we can't have this again, and we need a buffer zone, and maybe some retribution that teaches people the algebra of deterrence or a pretty difficult lesson, there's going to also have to be a long-term sort of economic solution? Because you're right, there's 5 million people we got to deal with. Has there been any leadership around this issue or any model for what we might want to implement here? So first, I want to underscore the point you're making, which is, you know, there are 2.2 million people in Gaza.

33:29It's the most densely populated part of the world. 50 % of those are children. 50 % of those are children. Youth unemployment in Gaza is over 60%. By some accounts 70%. 75 % of the people in Gaza lack access to drinking water. 60 % live below the poverty line. So it's a pretty miserable place. The Secretary General of the UN visited it and he described it last year as hell on earth. So it's an interesting question of how much worse can you make Gaza? And again, absolutely. And it's important, now I'm talking about the people of Gaza. Hamas is a terrible... tyrannical terrorist organization. So it's even worse for them to the extent they have any governance.

34:18It's governance through this very tyrannical, radical, and corrupt organization, Hamas. The problem is, I think, Scott, that you put your finger on how to think about this, but what these people want more than anything else, as far as I can tell, is political rights and dignity. And the Israelis have been very willing to give them a lot of other stuff, economic rights, development aid. The world has been willing to give them that. But it's almost as if we're trying to kind of obfuscate or get around the central problem, which is what they want is a state. And the Israelis, to be fair, have tried to go down that path as well.

35:01Not so much this government, but Ehud Barat, If you remember 2000, Bill Clinton came tantalizingly close to a Palestinian state. They had agreed on all the parameters, both sides. And then Yasser Al-Fat pulls out the last minute. Ehud Omer, another Israeli prime minister, offered a version of that deal again to Abbas, the current Palestinian Authority leader. He turned it down. So the Palestinians, I mean, I have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinians. I do not have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian leadership, which has time and time again, just, you know, the way I would put it is fundamentally, there was a struggle here.

35:46The Israelis have won. The Israelis have won. They have, you know, they have all the territory. They're a rich, powerful, strong country. When you're in a war that you're losing, the longer you wait, the worse the deal you get. And the Palestinians have kept, if you think about it, the deal that were offered in 47-48, the partition was half of that British mandate land. They said no. The Israelis take more. Then the 67 war happens. The Israelis take more. Now the settlement activity is taking place. So what the deal that Clinton offered, Barack and the Palestinians, is way better than anything they could dream of getting today.

36:29Because in a war, when you're losing, the longer you wait, the worse the deal gets. And the leadership doesn't want to own up to its people that, you know, the dream of a loaf is gone. We have a half loaf. And if we keep pissing around, it's going to be 40 % of the loaf. And then it'll be 30 % of the loaf. And they just, you know, Talston leadership has a lot to answer for, in my view. So let's talk about second order effects. We talked about that for the time being, any sort of agreement between the kingdom and Israel is kind of on hold or is in stasis. What about what does this do for U.S.-Israeli relations, U.S.-Iranian relations?

37:11What does it mean for the conflict, not the conflict, the invasion of Russia, Russia's invasion of Ukraine? What are the kind of, as we get away from the blast zone here, what do you see as the long-term geopolitical impacts across Europe, Middle East, and U.S. relations with these different entities? So I think in the region, what you see is the reality of a post-American Middle East. It's very messy. Everyone is trying to gain a jockey for advantage. You're going to see more violence. violence. You're going to see more groups that try to take advantage of the fact that there is this level of instability.

37:51I think with the Iranians, the interesting question is how much do they want to... That's the crucial question here. Because the other ones, the Turks are trying to establish themselves a bit in Syria. The Israelis, of course, have largely been trying to do it through technology and that kind of thing and build up a big deterrent force. The Saudis are trying to do it with money. The Iranians have tended to try to extend their influence politically and militarily through militias in Lebanon, in Yemen, in Syria, in Iraq. And so will the Iranians really try to play a game here? I think everyone, the Iranians are a malicious force, don't get me wrong, but they seem to be searching for a way out, partly because they have these crippling sanctions on them.

38:40What's the evidence of this? The biggest evidence of this is the Saudi Iranian normalization, the rapprochement, right? That was a big, big deal. You remember it happened last year, the Chinese brokered it. That seems to me they would jeopardize all that if they were to go really take advantage of this. But that's the part I worry the most about. And then there's the broader issue, which is, look, the central challenge in international relations we face is a version of what's going on in the Middle East, which is, can we maintain a rules-based international order that encourages open trade, open commerce, open communication, open information platforms without the great liberal hegemon superpower that sustained, built, and paid for the international system as it exists today, the United States?

39:33because the U.S. is not going to be able to play that role that it's played in the past, partly because it has grown weary, partly because others have risen and will not accept U.S. hegemony. And states like Russia, Iran, groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, are basically trying to, in various ways, undermine the rules-based order, undermine the international system, burn the house down. Will they win? Or will the United States and Europe and Japan and Singapore and Saudi Arabia, all these countries that want order and stability and openness, will they prevail? That's the big dynamic. And that's why what happens in the Middle East does have a larger global significance.

40:21Ukraine, what, if any, impact does it have on our efforts? I don't think it has too much. The biggest problem in Ukraine is the West is getting fatigued. They won't admit it, but they are getting fatigued. You're seeing signs of it in the Republican Party very strongly. You're seeing some signs in Europe as well. Slovakia election, they elected basically a pro-Russian leader. The Poles, these populist nationalists, they're pretty good on Ukraine, but they've been quarreling with Ukraine for the last two or three months about Ukrainian aid. And as these refugees, remember, there's six, seven million Ukrainian refugees living in Europe.

41:01I think that's the critical thing to look at. The Ukrainians are not going to give up. This is their land. This is existential for them. The question is, will they run out of money and weapons? And that's all on the West. I have begun to feel that one solution to this problem might be for us to seriously take and try to do what a number of very smart experts and senior former policy officials have been saying, which is let's tap the Russian funds that are frozen from the Russian central bank. It's about$320 billion. dollars, and we start getting that money flowing to Ukraine as reconstruction, as reparations, call it what you will, money is fungible.

41:49That both gives Ukraine a cushion. It also sends a signal to the Russians that, look, you know, you can't outweigh us. The Russian strategy right now is pretty clear. They're waiting for the 2024 election. They think there's a 50 % chance Donald Trump will win. Trump will sell the Ukrainians down the river, cut a deal with Putin. Well, What if you had this independent mechanism set up by an independent agency, maybe the European Union or something like that, that is just sending this money on the basis? And as Larry Summers, the foreign treasury secretary, said, this is unprecedented, but so is the naked aggression that Russia engaged in.

42:31And if the precedent you're setting is your foreign exchange reserves and your central bank reserves are psychosanct unless you brutally invade your neighbor, in which case all bets are off. That's not a bad precedent to say. We'll be right back.

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43:48I want to put forward a couple of theses and you validate or nullify them. But as we pull back the lens on the Middle East, I increasingly believe that the geopolitical or the catastrophic geopolitical decision of the last 50 years will be seen as our invasion of Iraq. Our weariness, the resources expended, we're like someone who's gotten their eyebrows burned and we just don't want to get near any hot surface any longer in the Middle East. that whether it's taking out a natural buffer to Iran, this incredible vacuum, that we will, in the fullness of time, look back on going too far. You know, going into Afghanistan, absolutely justification, but going into Iraq will be seen as probably the greatest geopolitical mistake in U.S.

44:33history since, you know, last 50 years. Yeah, I think there's no question. It was, how would I would, It is bigger than Vietnam. I don't know, but it certainly was a massive, massive mistake. And it represents two things. One was this was the kind of peak American hubris. You know, this was an American-dominated world. This was the post-Cold War world. We destroyed the world like a colossus. And then 9-11 happens, and we're like a wounded giant. And we start lashing out, and we lash out, and we totally militarized the conflict. You know, I wrote a piece for Newsweek, right, two weeks after 9-11 called Why They Hate Us.

45:13And the whole, I was trying to explain the roots of this kind of Islamic rage. And the main point I was trying to get across is, look, the main thing we have to understand is this is a kind of ideological, civilizational, political struggle. Don't turn it into a military struggle because that's what they want. Again, Osama bin Laden once said, you know, it's so telling that he thought about it this way. He said, if we go anywhere, if a small band of us go anywhere in the world and raise the flag of Al-Qaeda, we can be sure the American army will come thundering in. That's the goal. That's what they're trying to do is to draw you into these places that are quagmires.

45:53Even Afghanistan, I think we massively misread how we should handle it. We should have gone in there, got rid of the Taliban, and then left. You know, I mean, these places, when you try to bring order in a country, what we always forget is we are the foreigners. And you can have all the best intentions in the world, but it's the easiest thing in the world to arouse nationalist opposition against an occupying foreigner. You know, if we had understood that, I think we would be in a much better place today. So the U.S. I think crudely perceives the kingdom and MBS, poor track record on human rights, the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

46:38And the thesis is that MBS is actually an enormous asset or an enormous positive for the West, that the pivot from a hot war in Yemen and a cold war in Iran, sort of the pivot, loosely speaking, from terrorism to capitalism, that we could have not written a better script for pro-West interests. Your thoughts? Yeah, I basically agree, but let me preface it by saying, when I went to Saudi Arabia about 10, 12 years ago, I guess it was more than that now, 15, 16 years ago. I don't know if this happens to you, Scott, but as you get older, you forget that the thing you did that you thought were 10 years ago were actually 20 years ago.

47:18Yeah, no, time is just flying by. I went to Saudi Arabia, and Jamal Khashoggi was my guide, was my Sherpa. He took me around. So we got to be very close and I admire him enormously. So I say this with that caveat. Look, at the end of the day, what he did on that front in some other areas was unpardonable, unforgivable. but he has been the principal modernizing force in the Gulf on a scale we have never seen before. Saudi Arabia has modernized more in the last two to three years than it did in previous 50. You know, even if you think about human rights, he's allowed women to drive. He's allowed them, most importantly, to be in unsegregated areas, in education, in workplace.

48:06That means Saudi women, female participation in Saudi Arabia has been going up steadily, much, much faster than people realize. You are getting to the point where those distinctions are becoming much less important. He's opened up the economy to outside forces. He's opened it up to entertainment. He's opened it up to tourism. All those are freedoms. People have the freedom now to do lots of different things that they were not able to. They don't have political freedom yet. You can't pretend they do. But point two, as you say, he could be a huge Western asset because look at how he's modernizing his country.

48:41Is it along Chinese lines? No, it's along Western lines. Look at what he's, you know, he's buying. He's buying golf and Formula One and sports, you know, and soccer. They're opening four seasons. Exactly. So we are sort of blowing it a little bit by not recognizing that. I think that the deal that the Biden people have been trying to do with the Saudis, with Israel, is good for Saudi Arabia, good for America, good for Israel. Understand the parts America gets. Saudis would agree to consult with America on the price of oil. Saudis would agree no Chinese military facilities in their country, and basically no Chinese high-end technology, you know, no Huawei.

49:25They've agreed that they would continue to price oil in dollars. No question of pricing it in yuan. Those are real important elements of American power. Saudi Arabia is still the swing state for the most important energy resource in the world and will be the most important energy resource in the world for the next 20 years. No question. You used a key term there. It was my next question, swing state. So if you think these polls in the media, Biden versus Trump, I just I find just totally superfluous, obnoxious because it really doesn't matter what the U.S. 45 states have already voted. It all comes down to a small number of people in five states.

50:05And then if you look globally, it strikes me that the swing voters in what looks like a bifurcation or a bipolar world where it's loosely speaking China and Russia versus the EU and the U.S., that the swing votes, the people who decide who wins and who loses here, come down to the kingdom and India. Your thoughts? Kingdom, India, Turkey, maybe Indonesia, but basically it's a small number of states. I want to underscore the point you were making that people don't focus on enough right now, which is, I think, crazy. the most powerful man in the world, is going to be elected by probably 100 ,000 people in four states, in Georgia, Arizona, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania.

50:49It's not even going to be in those states, as you know, because the cities are going to go blue, the rural areas are going to go red, and it's going to be those exurban counties. and you're talking maybe 50 ,000 people are going to determine the fate of the way the war in Ukraine goes, the future of the international system, whether or not, you know, because the part that worries me the most is the Republican Party is returning to its isolationist roots. This is something people don't realize. This is a big deal for ever since World War II, the Republican Party had been taken out of that. They opposed U.S.

51:26entry into World War II. They opposed U.S. support for Britain and France, all that stuff. It was the most bitter debate in some ways of the 20th century in American politics. They were going back to that. Listen to Josh Hawley. Listen to Vivek Ramaswamy. Listen to Trump. And you see the Republican Party is basically saying, you know, box on everybody's house. We get out of the world. If you want to see serious disorder, that's where I think it begins. if we really see a total withdrawal of America from the world. What are your cliff notes on the election or 2024 in America and where America is at economically and politically?

52:06To me, what's stunning about where we are is the mismatch between economics and politics. So if you look at where we are economically, Scott, if you were to ask yourself at any previous point in history, who dominates the world of technology and the industries of the future? In the 1970s, you'd be looking at a lot of German companies, Japanese companies, even Dutch companies like Philips. You know, think about what were the hot technologies then. NEC, Toyota, Siemens. Cars, computer, consumer electronics, all that. Today, it's America, America, America. 100%. You know, it's just crazy how dominant we are.

52:43Our banks are absolutely dominant. There are no global banks left in. They're just American banks. The Europeans are in tatters. The Chinese can't open up their system. The Japanese banks have been declining for 25 years. You look at demographics. We're the only rich country that is going to be demographically vibrant because we take in, not talking about anything illegal, we take in a million legal immigrants a year. That's more than the entire industrialized world put together. We're energy sufficient, independent. We are now the largest producer of liquid hydrocarbons in the world. It doesn't have as much impact as people, you know, people don't think about that because we consume most of it, but we're still the largest.

53:24We produce more liquid hydrocarbons than Saudi Arabia or Russia. You put all that together, and then you say to yourself, how do we have this totally screwed up politics? We can't pass a budget. You can't have a speaker. You can't get any kind of rational immigration reform, which is the single thing that can, you know, that could boost the American economy right now. If we had a rational immigration system where we could bring in high-tech workers. And by the way, we should be bringing in people who are just, you know, I'm a big believer that one of the great things that a rich country needs is drive, is just sheer drive.

54:03And guess what? Those people trying to cross the border three times, four times, that pain of death, they have drive. And we need some of them too. But you just need a system where it's lawful, it's not just rewarding people who are breaking the law and pretending to require asylum. How can we not? You know, we have this great hand. How are we screwing it up? And so having said that, do you think we're going to screw it up? Do you think Trump's going to be reelected here? You know, I'm an optimist by nature, and I'm an immigrant. I kind of chose. I left my country and my culture and my family and came here.

54:43So I have a lot riding on that question. I hope that America will survive and prevail and thrive. I think it will, because I think at the end of the day, we muddle through. Our politics is never great, but we don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg. We get it right. It just takes a while, right? On the Democratic side, do you think Biden is a lock for the nomination? I mean, it seems like we're all kind of praying for some mythical figure to show up and be the obvious replacement for Biden. Do you think it's too late for that? It isn't too late, but it's getting there. Look, if he decides he's going to run, it's difficult to dislodge him.

55:25He has been a successful president. He's done more in terms of legislation than any president, any Democrat since Lyndon Johnson. He's got good judgment on Ukraine, on, you know, things like the Saudi deal. His foreign policy has been smart. And yet, the problem I think we all have at the back of our mind is he's going to be 82 years old when he starts his second term. I don't know. My dad lived to 85, and he was a very healthy person. And in his 80s, he started to ditch. And mostly everybody I know who has been through this journey, 80s are different. And I just worry. And I think that, you know, I hope he's really thought through this because it seems to me one strategy would be to say, look, I came in to do a job.

56:16I've done it really well. I'm now leaving it to the next generation. Yeah, it's not the 82 number that really freaks me out. It's the 86 number when Marine One leaves the West Lawn for the last time. That means at 85, we're going to, I almost don't think it's fair to him. And the declines, at least among the people I've known in their 70s and 80s, the decline is not linear. it escalates. So you've been very generous and when we were off mic we were talking about your son and I want to just pivot for a quick minute. Do you just have one son? I have a son and two daughters. A son and two daughters and daughters are younger or older?

56:51Younger. So my son is 24 my next one is 20 she's a girl she's at Wellesley and my 15 year old is in high school in New York. So advice to your younger dad self gosh I have a lot I mean to me that that that has been in many ways the most important thing I've done in my life and the thing I've I think I've thought about the most and tried to get right the most and to the extent that I've done it done it okay it's the one thing I derived the most pride from I would say there is no such thing as quality time you have to spend a lot of time with your kids it's just um great secondly whatever you say is irrelevant they will follow what you do.

57:35If you tell them, you know, don't lie, but they notice you fibbing and, you know, you tell them live an honorable life, but you're not living an honorable life. If you tell them, you know, don't be on your phone all day and you're on your phone all day, like it's all about doing. It's not about telling and preach less and practice more. And the third thing I would say is, you know, don't get too proud and don't get too worried. This will pass. In other words, when they're reading one year faster ahead of everybody else, don't boast about it. Because next year they'll be reading slower. And if they're going through some strange phase, it's a phase.

58:19You know, have the perspective of knowing it's not a snapshot, it's a movie. So, Fareed, just to wrap up here, I can't help but ask a question about CNN and the larger mediascape. Have you thought in terms of managing your own career, like how do you have you thought about how does Fareed Zakaria and the content you produce, how do you skate to where the puck is headed? And how does it is it CNN in different formats? Is it podcasts? Is it writing more books? When you manage your own distribution channels, what are you thinking? Yeah, it's a great question. CNN is going through a kind of classic innovators dilemma problem, right?

58:56Which is that it had an amazing business model. Most people don't understand how profitable the cable carriage business was. And CNN's margins on the cable carriage fees were close to 50%. And it was getting, I'm guessing,$1.5 billion of cable carriage. So it made sense for them to be milking that for as much as they can. But that world is going away. The revenue of the future is going to be in some form in streaming and digital. And can they make that transition? The guy who's been appointed CEO of CNN is amazing and just the right person for it. He's a serious grownup. He understands exactly what I said.

59:35He did it at the New York Times brilliantly. Let's see whether he's able to do it. I certainly hope so. For me, the big advantage of CNN is I want a place where I can have maximum impact, not make the maximum amount of money. Don't get me wrong. I love making money. But if I have to choose, I want an open platform that anyone can access versus a closed platform where you have to subscribe to me because then I'm only getting my groupies. I'm only getting the people who are my fans. I like the fact that I can, you know, I'm on in a place where anyone, anywhere in the world can get me. So as long as CNN can be that place, it's a great platform.

1:00:18There's no other global media brand like CNN in that sense. It does, you know, it's all over the world, 200 countries, easy to access. And then I have, you know, the books and writing. And that's another piece where I have to think about, you know, because I've written my column for the Washington Post for about 20 years. Again, is that model viable? You know, the Post is itself going through its own challenges. So I'm thinking about these things all the time. But for me, the goal has always been, you know, try to have the maximum impact. Because if I'm trying to, in this profession, make my goal, make the most amount of money, I made a stupid choice.

1:00:59I should have become a hedge fund manager or, you know, gone into venture capital or something. Fareed Zakaria is the host of Fareed Zakaria GPS on CNN and a columnist for The Washington Post. He's also the author of four highly regarded New York Times bestselling books, including his latest, 10 Lessons for a Post-Pandemic World. He joins us from his home in New York. Farid, I know a lot of people who are super talented. I know a lot of people who have insight on geopolitics. The thing that makes you singular is you are fearless. The stuff you say, it's data-driven, and I get the sense you are singing and dancing on tables as if no one is watching you.

1:01:39And I just have a great deal of admiration, and you're a great role model for young journalists. So I really appreciate your time and your good work. Thank you, Scott. But real pleasure to be on here. As I told you, my 24-year-old son is going to be so, so happy that I did this because he just adores you and listens to you. He finds you wherever you are. Thanks for that. Appreciate it. Stay well. Thanks, Fareed.

1:02:12As we're with happiness, wellness. What is wellness, right? The ability to take care of yourself such that hopefully you can live a productive and prosperous life. And not only that, do what's required to maintain happiness or really experience joy and victory. And that is starting to take care of others. But you need to affix your own oxygen mask, right? So what is wellness? It's not buying a candle or a meditation app. As far as I can tell, the path to wellness involves really two things, physical fitness and relationships. I have found when I am down, the things that really help are one, eating clean, an absence from alcohol and THC exercise, but more than anything, really leaning on relationships, really engaging.

1:02:58I find that one of the fastest ways for someone to feel closer to you is to be vulnerable and let them know you're struggling and let them know that something's not going well. I have men in my life that I consider good friends, and I've never once heard about anything bad happening to them. Every business situation is a victory and another example of what fucking geniuses they are. And I only hear about the stocks that go up and hear how awesome and incredible their wife is and how their kids are setting new records on the baseball field. And it's just, okay, so you're living a different life than the rest of us.

1:03:35You're living in a different universe. But it's when friends call and talk about their struggles such that when they have victories, we can celebrate them together. It's when I know I can call someone and talk to them about some of the struggles I'm facing. And I don't want sympathy. I want empathy and I want good advice and I want support. And I get that from my best friends. I'll call them and say, I'm really fucking stressed out about this. Or Jesus Christ, I got mean in the face. I invested in this company, this stupid company. I've lost everything. thought I was a genius, you know, whatever it is.

1:04:09I feel guilty. I haven't been calling my dad a lot lately. He's 93 and I can't find the time to reach out to him. What is wrong with me? Anyways, that is what makes people feel closer. That is what strengthens relationships. That is the base for happiness and the base for rebounding faster from when you're down. Buy a candle, sure. Get a meditation app. But first and foremost, if you're focused on your own wellness. It's in the agency of others. Also, also, sweat. Relationships and sweat. Not candles, not apps. Relationships and sweat. This episode was produced by Caroline Chagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer, and Drew Burrows is our technical director.

1:04:56Thank you for listening to the Prop G pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And on Monday with our weekly market show.

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