Conversation with Julie Rice & Elizabeth Cutler — From SoulCycle to Peoplehood

23:59And I think at the time, we were two people that were looking for joy and community through exercise. And that was always the thesis around it. But what did you did better? Was it hiring and retaining the best instructors, picking the best real estate, little touch points? If you were to pick one thing that you did better than everybody else, what was it? We invested in people. That is it. across the entire spectrum of our business, from the instructors who we made a home for and turned into ambassadors and paid better than they'd been paid before, to our front desk employees who we invested in training.

24:37We invested in hearing them. We invested in knowing them. We invested in them knowing each other. And in turn, they knew our customers. We invested in our customers. When When they had things to say, we listened. We made changes according to their insights in our business. We all worked at the front desk, so we got to know each other for a very long time. And at the end of it, you know, I think that this is sort of extremely relevant to what we're doing today. But, you know, people always ask us that about SoulCycle. And I can remember people always walking through the doors thinking, oh, it would be so easy to recreate this business.

25:14all the businesses that came into our space and thought, well, I put a bunch of equipment in the room and I get a bunch of people doing this thing. Then it'll be, you know, 50 bikes or 50 barbells or 50 rowing machine times 35 bucks a person. And there you have it. And the truth is, it wasn't about that at all. And training people takes a lot of time. Investing in people takes a lot of money. It's a lot more labor intensive than people like to give it credit for. I think that people, especially these days, are looking at the digital products we create, thinking about how complex they are. when the truth is that treating people well is more complex, if not as complex, as doing something like that.

25:51So let's talk a little bit about peoplehood. Give us the elevator pitch on peoplehood because I don't think most people know it. Sure. I mean, it is really, you know, we're calling it relational fitness. And I will say listening to, you know, all of your amazing work and writings and podcasts, you know, So it's really a new category as we're thinking about it and thinking about, you know, why is it that people understand that, you know, in order to have a healthy body, you need to move a few times a week in order to have mental health. You need to talk or see somebody or a therapist once a week.

26:29And yet there is this idea around relationships that they will just work out. People prioritizing their relationships or thinking about them as a practice or a priority or something that needs intentional time around it seems to not yet really be in the zeitgeist. And so peoplehood is really the practice of being in relationships with other people. We've created an experience not unlike SoulCycle, which is a 60-minute guided conversation practice. And spoiler alert, and a lot of what you talk about, which we find so interesting, is, you know, we're teaching people to listen. That is, if we could distill it down to one skill that could really change the course of human relationships, it would be people learning to listen differently to other people.

27:18And, Elizabeth, is the business model similar to SoulCycle, where my understanding of SoulCycle was it's not membership, it was per usage, but maybe I'm not as familiar with it. What's the business model, and who is the core customer? Generally speaking, what's the demographic or the psychographic of the person that is drawn to peoplehood? You know, it's so I just want to go back to one thing, which is like I really think and I think, Julie, this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is that the combination of physical health and relational health. That to me is like we are seeing across all of the research that is coming out that those two things really sit at the center of us being able to lead the kind of lives that we say that we want to lead.

28:03And there's so much conversation around what the problem is and there just are not that many solutions. And so we really have this desire to get as many people as we can into facilitated conversations with one another, whether it is individuals coming to just be present with other people. Sometimes it's easier to talk to strangers than people that you already know to address like every couple talks about how their relationship becomes a logistics meeting after a while. and we want to be able to give the scaffolding and the structure for people to be able to engage with each other in a way that is meaningful and actually leaves you feeling better than when you started and you just do it for one hour so it's not a heavy lift and then additionally when you think about like what's happening at work one of the things that we both loved about soul cycle is we woke up in the morning and we were so excited to go to work the idea that you can have that kind of camaraderie in the place that you spend all of your time, like in your place of business, that means so much to us.

29:06And even pre-pandemic, we were thinking about this because how do you create these kinds of opportunities for collisions where you really get to know the people that you work with in a different way, that you know each other as humans so that you just have that much more propensity toward collaboration and toward really working together and getting through the tough stuff together. And so the model itself is based on we do paper class and we do membership. I think that what we are really, really interested in more than anything else, the headline is just getting people into facilitated conversations with each other so that they can connect.

29:43Because the chemistry around this is so old. I mean, just think about like how we evolved. And yet we are sorely missing this kind of activity and there's no place to put it. And Julie, how do you create the alchemy for a good guided conversation? Is the guide there to just, do they understand the semantics and the ingredients of a good conversation? Or are they meant to be a domain expert? The guide is really there to create the scaffolding. I think that so much of what happens in our conversations with each other is, you know, one person sucks the air out of the room. Of course, we all know that people, you know, think that they're going to leave the best impression in a conversation to give advice, give their opinion, you know, try to connect.

30:31I mean, that's all of our instinct, right? You tell me about your experience and rather than me validating you, I tell you about my experience because I think what's going to happen there is you and I are going to have something in common. But ultimately, most times, you would have felt better about our interaction if I had listened and just validated what I heard from you. And so the guides are really there to create this structure that allows equity of time, that allows equity of thought, you know, allows people to really recognize themselves in others. and more than actually trying to create the way that the conversation goes, they just keep things on the rails so that people can come back and continue to practice this idea of you can share and I can listen and I can share and you can listen.

31:23You know, we do a lot of active listening without reacting in the room and it sounds simple and people come and say, we're just going to listen and then people can't help themselves, right? They have to put their opinion in or give their advice or you should or I did. And they come out of these rooms and say, gosh, that was so hard. And in the same way that we would never go for one run and think, hey, I'm ready for a marathon, practicing this kind of listening over and over again is something that will really never get old. And so the guides also, they share their own life experiences, which really allows and permissions the room and people in the room or the screen to feel comfortable.

32:02They create trust. They create an environment where, you know, telling us your experience, which is, of course, kept confidentially in those conversations, feels like the norm, feels OK, feels like you won't be judged, feels safe. And Elizabeth, when I think of this as a retail concept, and I think the most successful retail concepts are generally in the business of addiction. And that is Starbucks is an addiction. Chipotle is an addiction. I'm addicted to survival and the salt that's in the, you know, to sustenance and the salt. CrossFit for me is an addiction. The norepinephrine, the high I get, I'm literally addicted to.

32:43And if I don't get it, I start to have withdrawals and get upset and depressed. How do you get people, because at the end of the day, I would imagine, I don't know if it's the 80-20 rule, but at all of these concepts, I would imagine at SoulCycle, you're not making, you weren't making bank off the folks coming once every three months. You're making bank off the addicts who are there a lot. How do you turn this into something that people want to use multiple times? I think one of the models that we looked at was AA. And we really asked ourselves, like, why do we need to be bottoming out to be in the company of others?

33:16and we just really believe, I mean, for ourselves, like there is a genuine thirst for this kind of activity and you feel higher when you leave. So the repetition of it and the notion that this is a practice is something that we are putting into the Zeitgeist so that we can all support each other and walk around feeling better. The thing that's very cool too is that in that hour, you have the experience that you have. I always feel so much better. I always feel better for the next day or two. And then it's really cool to come on back because you get to you start to see people, you start to meet people, you start to have relationships with other people.

33:57And it's it's there's something very powerful about that. You know, it's interesting. I mean, of course, we've experienced designed it the same way that we did with SoulCycle. I mean, we do take you through sort of a hero's journey in the same way that we did in SoulCycle. There are definitive moments. There's breathwork. There's music. So there's, you know, there's an oxytocin release. There's a dopamine release. I mean, we are, we definitely did sort of look at the way that our brain reacts to connection to kind of figure out what are key moments that we can hit for people during these gathers so that they definitely will feel better, you know, when they leave.

34:33The other thing to talk about is there are really two use cases for peoplehood. So one, when we talk about this epic of loneliness, especially with young people, digital overusage, people that don't know how to be in this world after COVID. There is this idea that you can come to peoplehood and, of course, meet new people and not just meet them, but have meaningful connections with them, really feel like somebody got to know you in less than an hour. And then there's this other idea that you can come and strengthen existing relationships, which is we do couplehood in the room when we're working with at-work teams.

35:06It's people that have relationships with each other. And I think people are sick of small talk, honestly. I think there's a real place for this. I mean, is there ever an opportunity? I think it's gotten to the point where we're lacking so much human connection and it's been so clearly linked to depression and bad outcomes. Is there a possibility that at some point this might get covered by Medicaid or insurance or a doctor might write a prescription to go to Peoplehood for six or 12 sessions? I mean, have you thought about how this interacts and does it interact with our kind of health care complex?

35:45I mean, that's our big dream, honestly, is to just make this as widely available as possible. And the thing that's so awesome is that Julie has she comes out of a talent background. And so she just really understands how to help people learn how to facilitate these conversations and hold space for other people. And it's really not I mean, it's complicated, but it is also there's a lot of simplicity to it. So it would be incredible if we could do that. But that's the big dream, Scott. I like that you got there first. That's the dream. And what what give me a sense for the curriculum or I imagine it's not just a group of eight or 12 people that sit down and start talking.

36:22What is do you pick a topic? What are the most popular topics? Generally speaking, if you if someone wanted to try this, what would you suggest that their first step is? Yeah, there's you know, there's a lot of different ways that we people at Peoplehood. Right. So you can do it by cohort. There are certain people that want to be in groups with people that have something really in common with them. So we have motherhood. We have couplehood. We have singlehood. We have a lot of different groups. You know, we have a female founderhood. We have a lot of groups where you kind of know that just by virtue of who you're grouping with that you are going to be talking about parenting challenges or business challenges or, you know, the conversations are sort of implied in what the group is gathering around.

37:10Right now, we are doing a relational reset. It's a five-week challenge where a group has signed up to go through this program together, and we're learning everything from how to talk to people to how to be a better friend to how to be more interesting to ultimately how to navigate conflict, right? Because isn't that kind of the hope? Isn't the hope that after we practice having conversations with each other in a new way, first we see our dinner tables change, then we see our offices change, then we see our marriages change? And ultimately, we're living in cities that are a little bit different and maybe even countries where people can talk to each other and live with different ideas or opinions, but not have to be intolerant of each other because of it.

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39:16I got really interested when you said the term singlehood because I think that online dating is a disaster. I think it's profoundly bad for men, and it's just generally bad for women. And now over half of relationships are beginning online. Does that work in this context? And do you try and have a gender balance? Do you have singlehood for LGBTQ? And is that what offering here has surprised you to the upside and the downside? Well, it's interesting. I mean, singlehood has been very interesting. I think singlehood has also served a couple of different purposes. I think people that are single feel feel lonely like all of us.

39:55And I think a lot of times just to be in a room with other single people, whether or not you're actually meeting somebody that you're going to hook up with. I think that single people are finding other single people and their friends are introducing them to other friends if they're not themselves going out on dates. And so we've definitely started a Friday night singlehood where people can come and there's there's wine and cheese and there's an hour to talk and some time to socialize afterward. And that has definitely become a lively offering. And I agree with you, Scott. I think people are grateful to be in person meeting other people.

40:29and then we've also done singlehood in a different way where we do the conversation and then we do you know some some speed dating afterward where you get to meet a bunch of different people pretty quickly and have one-on-one conversations with them face to face rather than swiping left or swiping right which also seems like a really novel conversation these ways and I think it's interesting people also we've also done friending that way as well I think that young people want to meet friends in person as much as they want to meet dates in person. And we've been having a lot of success with kind of this idea of friendship gathers with some speed friending before and after, which has also been very interesting.

41:09So this is more a question from one entrepreneur to two other entrepreneurs, but it's going to be, you know, I don't know if I'll get a straight answer here, but whenever I've been fortunate enough to have it successful, go with something, it's usually 10 years and I come off it and I have some capital and some confidence and some people who want to, you know, who made money. And so they want to back me in whatever I do. And almost always my next thing is not nearly as successful. I just, I go into it with, I'm too aggressive. I spend too much money. And also I just think luck. I don't think you realize how hard, I didn't realize just how many moons line up, have to line up for success.

41:50I have never had two wins in a row. And my question is, is this harder, easier? You know, what's it like starting? I couldn't start a business again at this age. I just don't have the tread left on my tires for the bullshit and the calling people who don't want to hear from me. And I just don't have it in me anymore. What is different about starting a business this time? Are there things you forget about that were, you know, so hard? Has it been easier? And what's it like starting a business at this age versus when you started 117 years ago? Yeah, I mean, this is this is an entire pod, actually.

42:26But let me just say that, you know, tread on the tires is a great way to say it. I think that you do forget what it was like. I think actually it's much harder because when we when we launched SoulCycle, it was kind of like everything exceeded our expectations. You know, we were so we just caught fire pretty quickly. And when you say it takes 10 years, I mean, we became profitable in like eight months. So it was, you know, it was it was a pretty quick win. And although obviously it wasn't a win to the scale that it ultimately became a win to for us, everything kind of felt like a win. Now, of course, you know, you're so worried to put something out into the world for fear it won't be perfect or people are looking at it or people are judging you.

43:07And so your own ego can kind of really get in the way with that, I think, in many ways. You also, you know, the world has changed, right? And so you're constantly kind of looking around at younger people, smell testing everything to make sure that, you know, your wiser and older perspectives, although obviously completely additive and in so many ways, you know, the wisdom of years can't be replicated. I do think you also need to have a team around you that is really operating in a younger world, that is using the technology that we're using today, that is consuming the way that we're consuming today.

43:44So, you know, you're constantly poking holes through your own theory. And the last thing I'll say is that you just go to your desk every single day and you try to turn off the periphery vision that you've learned over the years. I mean, look, I worked at a place like WeWork for a couple of years, Scott. I mean, where every day we were opening in India, China, and Japan all at the same time, right? And you try not to think about scale like that. You try to think about one customer walking through your door and if they would leave and tell a friend. And if you think the product is that good, if you think it has that kind of impact on people, then you just keep going.

44:21Elizabeth, let me ask you a similar question. And I'm fascinated by this as someone who's been an entrepreneur my whole life. I've never had success in something that I didn't work so hard that it impacted my relationships, my mental and my physical health. I'm just not talented enough to work 40 or 50 hours a week and have something be successful. And I've heard those people are out there. I haven't met them. And what I find about entrepreneurship and what I tell entrepreneurs is unless you're just sort of willing to go all in, it's probably not going to work. and the thing that has reduced that fire for me, quite frankly, is money.

44:58I got wealthy about 10 years ago and I'm just not willing to call my partner and say I can't make dinner. I'm not willing to miss the spring concert with my kids. I shoved all of that to the side in my late 30s and early 40s because I needed money and I didn't have it or not. I didn't even need it. I was fine, but I really wanted it. And I was willing to make those trade-offs. And I no longer am. And as a result, I don't think I'd be nearly as successful an entrepreneur. You're both very wealthy now. How do you maintain or can you maintain that same sort of hunger and grit that I think is sort of the secret sauce in building a company from zero?

45:42It's a calling. This is a calling. It's exactly what you're doing with your podcasts. Like, Your podcasts require a lot of effort and a lot of energy and a lot of vulnerability on your part and a lot of really like, honestly, like intense introspection and permissioning hundreds of thousands of people. And that is what we're interested in, trying to understand what's going on politically, what's going on environmentally, what's going on personally, what's going on professionally. is people have so many demands. And we really believe that if people take a small amount of time and devote that to connecting with other people in a meaningful manner, that we will start to be able to understand what it is that are, what we actually need in this moment.

46:29We will get out of the distractions that are kind of pulling us all around. And that is a very powerful and potent thing for us individually and that we feel like it's time to like get out there into, like you said, into the retail world. It doesn't seem like anybody is really doing this and we're kind of tired of all the talk. We're doers. We just wanna make things happen. And so, yes, there is a price to pay. There is a tax to pay. It happens. You never know where it's gonna happen that day. It just depends. But I think that we also are good at cutting through the noise. And so we're able to kind of just keep moving forward.

47:08Let me also just add that, you know, Elizabeth and I have done a lot of this work. I mean, this is the work that we started doing in our partnership back in 2006. We realized pretty early on that to be in a successful partnership, two people don't just have the same opinion, the same point of view, and want to do the same thing with their business at all time. We started working with a coach very early on. We work with that same coach today. We have our conversations in two parts. The first meeting we go in and we say what we think and we don't solve anything. And in the second meeting we go in and we've actually heard each other and can now operate from a point of understanding somebody else's world.

47:48And so ironically, that kind of work and what we're putting into the world saved our relationship the first time. I've done this work in my marriage. Pretty much learned a second language. My husband and I very early on started to practice something called Imago, where we learn to talk in a different way. We make an appointment and we actively listen to each other. Also, very much saved and transformed, you know, my marriage. And so ultimately, I think that a lot of what we're putting into the world is a relationship saver. Julie Rice and Elizabeth Cutler are the co-founders of Peoplehood, a firm dedicated to improving our relationships.

48:30Julie and Elizabeth are also the co-founders of SoulCycle. After growing to 60 studios as co-CEOs, Julie and Elizabeth sold the company in 2016. They join us from a cold and wintry New York. I appreciate so much that you're not just, I don't know, hanging out in St. Barts or started a VC fund to invest or whatever it is people do after a big exit and that you're going back at it. I love I think that you're trying to ensure our species doesn't evolve or devolve into something less wonderful. And I think that's happening with people not touching, smelling and feeling each other. So really do appreciate your good work and enjoyed speaking with you.

49:11And generally, for a lot of reasons, hope that peoplehood is successful. Thanks so much.

49:24Odds of Happiness. I was moved by Elizabeth and Julie from peoplehood. I think this loneliness crisis is something that people don't talk about. And unfortunately, I think it's one of the bigger, I think there are, you know, I'm constantly talking about crises. And I think the biggest one is the fact that young people don't have as much money as their parents and it creates rage and shame. And every problem we face, it's fuel that adds to it because people are just angry. It's like being hungry all the time. The second big thing that's, I think, really a threat to our society is how much we are sequestering from one another.

50:03We are losing connective tissue. We're losing touch. We're not procreating. We're not developing friendships. That makes us a less forgiving, a less productive, a less innovative, a less mammal species. And I think we need to reconnect. There's fewer third spaces. There's fewer places like peoplehood. There's fewer parks, after-school programs. We don't go to church. We don't go to the mall. We don't go to movies. So I think people getting back together is super important. And more than just preaching, more than just preaching, I don't enjoy people that much. It's an effort for me. I'm living in London.

50:35I have, what is it called? Seasonal disorder. And what I have found that I've been doing is I'm very social on the weekends. I love to hang out with my boys. It's just joyous for me. They're at a wonderful age. And then during the week, I pretty much work all day. I do podcasts. I come downstairs into my sort of makeshift studio and gym. I hang out all day. I eat. I do a lot of writing, a lot of reading. I eat dinner. And then everyone goes to sleep. And I love that time at night, and I usually either watch TV or I read or I write. Sometimes I take half an edible, and if I'm feeling really, really good, I'll have a drink.

51:13And the half an edible and the drink and the media, oh my God, I'm just so happy. And my dogs come lay on me on the couch. It's my time and I love it. I'm doing it too much. I'm spending too much time alone. I'm saying no way too much to invitations. I'm getting angry when people make plans for me where I have to leave the house. I am withdrawing to my house, my studio, my living room. And other than my boys, the people I enjoy being around is getting narrower and narrower. And I wonder or I worry that at some point there's a point of no return. In addition to, I don't know, what could ultimately end up, if I'm not careful, digressing into low-grade substance abuse.

52:01It's pretty simple. I got to get out there again. I got to start making more of an effort. I got to start saying, yes, I'm really blessed. I get invited to a lot of fun stuff, and I'm finding all these reasons to say no all the time, and it's too cold. I don't want to go out. And I've always got Netflix, my email, my, you know, the reading I have to catch up to, an edible and a makers and ginger, which are all awesome, all awesome in the short run. But in the long run, I want to stay mammal. The number one indicator of living a long life and a rewarding life is how social you are. And I am pulling years back.

52:36I'm going to die faster if I don't get out there more. So I want to invite you to do what I'm going to try and do, and that is say yes to more stuff and go out. Go out. We're mammals. Be that mammal. Roar, baby, roar. This episode was produced by Caroline Chagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer, and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show. They say an apple a day keeps the doctor away. Well, why not make it a limited edition Groonie Smith Apple Vitamin Snack Pack from Groons?

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