Conversation with Mike Birbiglia — On Storytelling, Mortality, and Fatherhood

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0:43With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app. Download today. Episode 277. And 277 is the number you can dial in the state of Colorado to report aggressive drivers. In 1977, the first Star Wars movie was released and the first VHS-based VCR was introduced in the United States. True story, I was so into the Star Wars genre that I had a Star Wars tattoo on my head. You should have seen the Luke on my face. I love VHS. Most recently, I watched a tape of my wedding backwards. It's the gripping drama of my friends saving me from the church.

1:24Go, go, go!

1:34Welcome to the 277th episode of The Prop G-Pod. In today's episode, we speak with Mike Birbiglia, a comedian, storyteller, director, and actor, to hear about his approach to storytelling and how Mike thinks about mortality, loneliness, and fatherhood. His new special, The Old Man and the Pool, is now out on Netflix, and it's fantastic. I saw his one-man show in London. I love the way Mike collides humor and soulfulness and emotion and relationships. It'll make you laugh. It'll make you cry. Okay. What's happening? The dog is in Miami. That's right. The best city in Latin America. I'm in South Beach enjoying myself, room service, edibles, little beach time, trying to work out and doing a shit ton of podcasts because I have a speaking gig here.

2:20And then I head back to London. I do. This is interesting. I know you want to know more about. Let's bring this back to me. Let's settle on the dog. So I no longer do red eyes. I've decided that one of the things I want to reward myself with for the rest of my life is as few or no red eyes as possible. So when I go back to London from New York, I take something called the chairman's flight. And that is you leave at 9 a.m. So you bomb to JFK super early, no traffic, which is nice. And the flights in the morning are the first flights out and they take off on time. A little pro tip there. First flights in the morning.

2:54It's tough to get up at zero to 100 hours, but the flights get out on time, no traffic on the runway. And you get into London, I guess, around 8 p.m. and then you go home, have dinner, stay up to 1 or 2 a.m., do an edible or a sleeping bill, and then go to sleep and you're fine the next day. Granted, you burn a day, but not trying to pretend that you're going to get anything resembling sleep, I find it's much healthier. And I take the, from Miami, I take the 5 p.m. flight, which gets me in around 2 a.m. my time, which is 7 a.m. their time. Again, no traffic into London. And then I just sleep the first half of the day and then try and crash later that night.

3:28Anyways, I think red eyes are terrible for you. And I imagine that every red eye I took, took at least a week off my life. Anyways, here in Miami, absolutely love it down here. Wonderful city. Also, one more note, and by note, we mean basically a commercial for us. Our higher ed startup section is partnering with Pair AI to bring my brand strategy sprint to a mobile device, TikTok style format. And for a limited time, you can get free access to the course by going to profgcourse.com slash enroll. Again, that's profgcourse.com slash enroll. Free, free brand strategy. OK, moving on. It's been a little over a week since the chaos ensued over at OpenAI.

4:09By now, you know that the board ousted CEO Sam Allman and then, wait for it, reinstated him just a few days later after there was an internal uproar over the board's initial decision. So putting aside the obvious that the board clearly fucked up here, we've been thinking about the second order effects or more specifically how profits and mission don't mix. I think great investors are really thoughtful people. You see kind of the immediate effects, but I always think it's fun to say, OK, let's let's try and still our minds and think about all the different ramifications. If we have a ground zero, what happens to the blast zone?

4:42And as you go, circumferences or several circles out from the blast zone, what does this mean, right? Does GLP-1 drugs not only hurt the industrial food complex, but it probably hurts the industrial medical complex? Or does it increase sales at Urban Outfitters as people begin to pivot to a lower weight and need new outfits or feel better about themselves? What does it mean when people have extra disposable income because they're not spending a ton of money on shitty food or alcohol? What does it mean? What are the second order? Does it create a baby boom? Do all of a sudden people feel much better about themselves, start dating and start having a lot more sex and pairing up and having kids?

5:16I don't know. These are the fun things to think about. it. For some backstory, OpenAI was founded as a nonprofit in late 2015 with the stated goal of, open quote, building safe and beneficial artificial general intelligence for the benefit of humanity. But then, as they put on their website, open quote, it became increasingly clear that donations alone would not scale with the cost of computational power and talent required to push core research forward, jeopardizing our mission. And sure enough, they birthed a for-profit subsidiary. So think about this. This is a company that wasn't even supposed to be, or an organization that really wasn't supposed to be a company, much less a for-profit company.

5:56It was originally founded to build safe and beneficial, artificial, general intelligence for the benefit of humanity. But quite frankly, once they took 12 or 13 billion dollars from Microsoft, whose job isn't to benefit humanity, it's to sell software and create shareholder value, things kind of got flipped on their head. And if you think loosely about shareholder interests and employees wanting to sell their shares into a$90 billion secondary offering, and you think about Kostla Ventures and Sequoia and Andrews and Horowitz, all investors, much less Microsoft with$12 or$13 billion in, they want return on their invested capital.

6:35So if you think of capital versus, quote unquote, the nonprofit side, we'll call it humanity. capital smothered humanity in its sleep there was just absolutely no question that all this adorable concern that sam altman was in fact not being candid i think was the word they used with the board about how fast he was moving capital said well okay girlfriend you may have fired him but the real power showing up and i'm going to give you 13 billion reasons why we microsoft want you to reinstate him. And there was a bit of a hallucination that all the folks who threatened to resign, and I believe they were genuine about it.

7:11By the way, talk about cults. Does anything inspire a cult like someone who understands technology? Why is that? Because as we become more educated and wealthier as a society, our reliance on church and a super being declines. We no longer believe in an invisible friend, but we still want idols. We still want people to look up to. We still want to think there is someone who has more answers than us. What is the closest thing to magic in our era, hands down, it's technology. Do you understand how your iPhone works? I don't even understand how the Nespresso machine works, but it is magic. That shit is magic.

7:42That sound in the morning makes daddy go, yes, it's going to be a good day for the dog. That's right. Give me a snack and an espresso. Give me a treat. That's my treat. I sit in front of that fucking Swiss army knife of a coffee maker with my paws up and just love it. Just love it. Everything about it, even when I'm drinking decaf, Nespresso, everything just feels better. True story, I didn't drink coffee until I was 40. I remember seeing in high school something about caffeine, that it was bad for you. And that, along with the propaganda around not smoking, really worked for me. I never smoked.

8:15And two, I never had a cup of coffee or took a single pill until the age of 40. Now daddy loves all the pharmaceutical industrial complex offerings. It's like, well, there's something for that. Well, I'll take it. Fork it over. What is it? I don't care. Let's try it. Don't know how we got here. As we sit here today, the planned sale of OpenAI employee shares that value the startup at$86 billion is still expected to take place. But capital showed up and said, OK, girlfriend, that is really fucking adorable that you want to save humanity. But when you take this kind of money, you're essentially implicitly and explicitly agreeing to pursue profits full stop.

8:50And what are the key second order effects here? Well, one, it'll be really interesting to see how this decision ages. And that is, it'll be very interesting to see if, in fact, AI does, in fact, create greater concentration of power, disinformation, super weapons become sentient, which I've always found is a little bit ridiculous, but maybe I just don't understand it. And we look back on this moment and think, well, would it have been nice? Or maybe did those folks have a point that the whole origin story or the backstory of this organization was meant to really look out for humanity? But once this thing became worth billions, sorry, boss, that shit's adorable.

9:30Okay, great. Create the Hallmark Channel. But if R-rated films or an X-rated film is making a lot more money, we're going to allow those films to run. And I don't know if that's the correct analogy. Anyways, you get it. You feel me. You feel me. You hear me. It'll be very interesting to see what in fact happens. Another second order effect here. I think this is the beginning of the end of ESG. And I've got a lot of pushback for this. But effectively, I think for-profit companies are so outstanding at what they do that they shouldn't be trusted to do anything else. We constantly go, you hear about, okay, 1.1 million complaints that kids under the age of 13 are getting on the platform.

10:10And we immediately start thinking, Mark needs to do better. No, he doesn't. We need to do better. We need to do better. We need to stop these companies from licensing their IP offshore to Ireland such they can avoid taxes, such that we have the resources to attract really talented, thoughtful people who understand these technologies into government, who come up with sensible laws and marketplaces and standards, which, by the way, grow the economy. The fact that you can plug in your hair dryer and it doesn't blow up in your face. The fact that there are red lights, green lights and yellow lights.

10:40The fact that the FAA makes it incredibly safe to travel via air transport. All of these things create bigger markets, standards, protocols, and also prevent a tragedy of the commons. Are we doing this right now? No, it doesn't appear. We immediately go to let's call on the better angels of the private sector. I know, I know we can have something called ESG and hedge fund managers can actually outperform the market by investing in companies that are good or at least less mendacious. And everyone will make money and will solve the world's problems. Well, here's the thing, folks. Bono at Davos holding up a red iPod doesn't solve the fucking problem.

11:20And we do have a model that helps. It's not perfect, but it works. And that is we pass laws. And if you, General Motors, continue to pour mercury into the river, we fine your ass. And if you continue to do it after that, we fine the CEO or some individuals and we put them in jail. The most effective ESG investment over the last year? Hands down, the investment that you, me and every other taxpayer are making, the DOJ and the SEC and the fact that we're putting Sam Bankman-Fried in jail. This notion that ESG works is nothing but a Sandbergian-like distraction, a weapon of mass distraction. That, in fact, that the markets alone and the capitalism can figure this out.

11:57The other bullshit argument right now is that climate change is going to be solved by someone who also makes his billions. That someone is going to start a company that cleans the carbon out of the air and will invest and will all make money while solving climate change. Well, boys and girls, get your heads out of your asses. Climate change is going to cost a shit ton of money and require sacrifice for every government and every citizen in the world. And it will absolutely be costly. There is no free lunch here. And this bullshit notion that a group of people can decide Southwest Airlines is actually ESG friendly is nothing but marketing such that a small group of alternative investment managers can charge higher fees for worse performance while pretending to save the world.

12:34Well, guess what? Guess what? The only organization, the only organization that has ever had any impact on pushing back on these types of crimes and this amoral behavior when it's raining money, you just overlook the fact that in the UK, one in eight teenage girls cite Instagram specifically as a cause for their suicidal ideation. Well, there is only one goddamn thing that stops that. That is the U.S. government in the form of civil penalties and perp walks. And we need both of more of those things. Okay, what else is happening? That was indignant. Xi 'an, the Chinese-founded fast fashion company, has filed for an IPO.

13:11The firm was last valued at$66 billion, down from the$100 billion valuation it reached in April 2022. JPMorgan Chase, Morgan Stanley, and Goldman Sachs have reportedly been hired as the lead underwriters. Those are kind of the, you know, the blue chip, the bluest of the chips of underwriters. In 2022, Xi 'an reported$23 billion in revenue and$800 million in net profit. The Financial Times reported that Xi 'an expects revenues to reach 58.5 billion by 2025. This is easily the fastest growing retailer in history. The U.S. is Xi 'an's largest market. Should the IPO go through in the U.S., it would be the largest Chinese-founded company to list since Didi in 2021, valued at 68.4 billion at its IPO.

13:52Wow, that's real. Xi 'an has essentially been trying to distance itself from China. It moved its HQ to Singapore and deregistered its original company in Nanjing. Am I saying that right? Anyways, this is a company. I'm actually a fan of this company for a couple of reasons geopolitically. I think the biggest tax break in the history of the world would be if the U.S. and China kissed and made up. And I think there's incentives around that. I think China was filling their oats two or three years ago, beating their chest. We're going to be the biggest economy in the world in seven or eight years.

14:22Who knows? Maybe we'll take back Taiwan. Kind of feeling the Belt and Road Initiative and then shake our reel over there. And their economy has gone into the tank. and some of their biggest real estate companies have filed for bankruptcy. For all the talk about Chinese stocks, the Dow, the Nasdaq have all vastly outperformed the Hang Seng over the last decade. Inflation in the West is an existential threat for the leadership and the economies and the general well-being of those economies. So we have inflation. China has a slowing economy. I know. Why don't we kiss and make up and take our IP from the West, our innovation, our entrepreneurship, some of our capital and collided with the incredible manufacturing, incredible labor force, incredible innovation around supply chain in China.

15:03And let's boogie. And that would result in the biggest tax cut in history around the world, because more than 70 percent of your toys under the Christmas tree are, in fact, manufactured in China. There is no room you can walk into and have a China-free room. They are producing pretty much everything everywhere around the world, and they do it really well and for a lot less. The ultimate business strategy, I don't care if it's Dell, Walmart, or China, the ultimate business strategy that has created more shareholder value than any other business strategy is the following, more for less. And that's China's entire business strategy is migrating hundreds of millions of people into urban centers and manufacturing parks, figuring out supply chain, transportation, innovation, and IP theft, quite frankly, and producing more for less.

15:53And when we bear hug each other and make up, which I think we will do, I think that we're both saying, I miss you in San Francisco. I said some bad things. You said some bad things. I've been dating Mexico and Indonesia and Canada, and I find that they're sort of expensive to date. And China's been thinking, yeah, when I date other people, they don't pay the bill. They don't pick up the check like you do, U.S. What do you say we give it another shot? And I think you're going to see again this couple get back together. And I think it's going to be a good thing. I hope Shin is a successful IPO. I think more for less.

16:25A lot of questions about the supply chain here. I actually think this company is incredibly innovative, growing super fast, offering young people more for less. Young people want to feel good about themselves. They're in their mating years. They want to have a sense of style. They want to feel differentiated. Global trade, cooperation, that is our superpower as the West and as a species more generally. It brings the cost of products down. It raises people's standard of living. If I sound like a douchebag capitalist, trust your instincts. We'll be right back for our conversation with Mike Birbiglia.

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18:14Welcome back. Here's our conversation with Mike Birbiglia, a comedian, storyteller, director, and actor.

18:23Mike, where does this podcast find you? In my working-it-out podcast studio in Brooklyn, New York, where I live. Nice. So let's bust right into it. Your latest tour is now a special on Netflix, The Old Man in the Pool, which, Mike, I don't like culture, but I went and saw your show. And it was wonderful. I literally that that statement, I laughed. I cried. It's actually true here. I took my 16 year old son. We bonded over it. He was really into it. It's about getting older, mortality and fatherhood. Can you walk us through kind of your creative process? How did this come together and manifest itself in a one man show?

19:06I started doing these solo shows that are like a hybrid of stand up and theater. The first one was in 2008, and it was called Sleepwalk With Me. And it came out of, you know, I went to Georgetown and I studied dramatic writing, and then I was doing stand-up at the same time in Washington, D.C. when I was in college. And at a certain point, I thought, well, if I merge these two ideas, I think that that could make for something that's sort of interesting. So I did this first show called Sleepwalk With Me in 2008, and I did it off-Broadway in New York, and Nathan Lane presented it, and it was a big inflection point in my life and career.

19:44And then I've ended up doing, this is the fifth one now, The Old Man in the Pool, and it was at Lincoln Center. And it was, the way that I arrive typically at what the shows are about, it comes down to sort of what I'm obsessed with at that moment. Like, I feel like with any writing or art form or comedy or art form, it's like, I feel like it's like, what are you obsessed with? Ultimately, that's what your reader or listener will be obsessed with also if you're compelling enough. And the thing with me was mortality. Like I was in my 40s and I was like, oh, I think about this a lot, like in an inordinate amount of time.

20:24And so I just started writing about it. I was like, well, if I can make death funny, then I think that that'll be helpful to the audience, possibly. I think your comedy is effective because you have just this kind of nonchalant way of delivering it through storytelling. Can you, can you, how do you create the story? Is there an arc? Is there a process? And how do you fit it into standup? So, yeah, I definitely do. And it is a process. You know, I started working with my director, this guy named Seth Barish, who's a wonderful, wonderful theater director and actor. He was on the show Billions along with me.

21:04But he and I talk through in the early forms. Like, usually I start with just jokes, stories. What am I thinking about? What are my experiences? What's the funniest thing I can come up with? At a certain point, he and I will talk about, like, well, what are the themes that are running through this? And then we're sort of talking through, like, well, what could be what we call the main event of the show? and um you know with the sleepwalking show with sleepwalk with me it was like i jumped through a second story window sleepwalking and that one was sort of in a certain way obvious of like oh that's a really massive thing to happen in my life and uh and and in this one it's sort of a culmination of like realizing like oh i have you know type 2 diabetes and i failed the pulmonary test and i had bladder cancer when i was younger and and and kind of all these things like 150 car pile up coming over me and thinking about that kind of in relation to my daughter and my wife.

22:03And so that's sort of that's usually the process. So let's let's talk about that. You were faced with a sense of mortality or the prospect of, you know, you were very sick or potentially very sick at a very kind of an abnormally young age. How did that change your approach to your relationship with your wife and your daughter and just your view of life in general? I think there's like two parts to that like I think that when I was younger like when I was 20 I had bladder cancer and I was very lucky they they got all of it and I didn't have chemo or radiation so I was very lucky and I had when I was 25 I jumped through second story window sleepwalking so I had these two kind of near-death experiences young and that did this thing where it really sped up my ambition for doing all the things that I wanted to do in my life.

22:56So it's funny. I relate very much to, in one of your books, you talk about this idea of like, in your 20s, you recommend to your students that they just put their head down and just work, work, work, work, work, because ultimately that kind of will pay dividends later. And I think I had this thing where I thought, well, I don't know if there's going to be a later. And so I'm just going to try to, I'm just going to try to get this all done now. And I think that as I've gotten older, my daughter's eight years old. And I think in this phase of life, it's much more focused on, well, how can I be a good father, be a good husband, and then connect with the people in the audience in a way that feels human.

23:44You said something about the moment, and I thought it's probably more indicative of just the life you lead as an artist and a comedian, but I saw you after the show. I came back. You were generous. You hosted me and my son backstage, and I said, how are you doing? And pretty much right away, you said, I'm lonely. I haven't been with my wife and my daughter for a long time. I'm lonely. It strikes me that comedy, it must be very lonely that you're on the road a lot But you can, I mean, I've always admired what feels like a really supportive, mutually supportive community with comedians amongst each other.

24:17But you're kind of in weird, crowded or weird, dark lit places where people may or may not be nice to you. And the whole point of getting to the whole point of getting to good stuff is having a bunch of bad stuff and then going home and kind of like trying to ignore the bad stuff. It feels it just feels very lonely to me. Can you can you speak to that? I think it is lonely. I think it's funny, like when I watch, my daughter and I started watching this summer this great documentary series on professional tennis called Breakpoint on Netflix. And I have to say, like, one of the things I love about it is you really get a sense of like, you know, these top 100, 200, 300 players in the world are not on easy street.