Conversation with Rex Chapman — Facing Your Demons & the Road to Recovery

24:15So I think I was always just very scared that I would like that. And I stayed away from it. And I think, therefore, I kind of justified going to the track. I'm not hurting anybody but myself, you know, I'm going to the track or I'm going to be, I might not go to the track for months, but I'm playing golf every day for nine hours when I should be spending some of that time at home, you know, chasing girls. I would just trade one, you know, distraction for another to keep, you know, probably to keep me from thinking about all the shit that was going on in my life. And the hardest part for me, Scott, really and truly over the past eight or nine years hasn't been staying off the medicine.

25:05It's been sitting, learning to sit in my bad feelings and not run, not get a pain pill or run to the track and spend seven hours there in a racing form thinking of nothing else. um that has been something i didn't have any coping skills for anything i was going through my whole life until really i entered rehab for the last time at age 45 or six and this is a i don't know an odd obtuse question so i apologize in advance if it comes out um unfeeling or incorrectly i look at you now you're a big handsome guy that's probably making really good money, covering sports, your family seems to, and I don't know this, but I'm going to assume they've forgiven you and they just want you to be happy.

25:57You look like you're really healthy. I mean, you're kind of like, you're the guy that most of us want to be, Rex, right here and now. Well, anyways, I don't know what the reality is, but that's perception. Yeah, thank you. And when you're sitting there and you're thinking, like, you got to fight back these bad feelings that you kind of naturally have an inclination to medicate with whatever. What are those bad feelings? Is it depression that you did? Is chemical that you just bad thoughts? Is it guilt over what happened? What are those, if you're comfortable sharing, what are those bad feelings?

26:31Yeah. So, no, that's a great question. You know, since I was young, Scott, I can imagine worst-case scenarios. I always kind of have always felt like the sky is falling. And for no reason, I learned that that's anxiety. And I have dealt with it my whole life. I purposely made myself throw up before every game I played until I was 20, probably 23 years old. Grade school, high school, college, NBA, 82 games a year in the NBA. So I couldn't continue that. But I did that. It was anxiety. The second I threw up, I felt great. My dad did it. I watched him do it. Phil Russell used to do it, didn't he?

27:19Didn't a lot of famous players do it? Athletes are weird, but again, that's not super healthy. And, you know, so anxiety, I did, you know, looking back when late high school, especially college depression, I was sleeping a lot. Again, I just thought, well, I'm getting my rest. I'm not out partying. No, I was sleeping. I was just, I was depressed and something I couldn't talk to people about or didn't feel like I could talk to people about. um so my my brain just i felt like it's always running hot like i just can't sit still add of course and you know i'm a bit dyslexic so and stuff that i never knew stuff that like that that you know kind of soured me on school i kind of thought well look why why can everybody in this room read that as fast as as one another i can't read that as fast i can comprehend it but I can't read it teleprompter same way.

28:26So I dealt with a lot of insecurity and deal with a lot of insecurity, but I, yeah, I think that, you know, just I'm a, I'm a mess in some ways. And when you said, you know, we look at you as the guy, man, Scott, that's how I look at you. That's how I look at the guy standing down on the street corner. I'm like, man, I bet he's got it all together, you know? Uh, and of course that's not true. Not every, everybody doesn't have it together. We're all just walking around with these thoughts in our heads. And, you know, it's better if we can all get along and listen to one another. And if there was one or two, we all have our people who have not struggled with addiction.

29:09We all have our perception, our mythology around what recovery looks like. What was the most surprising things about what worked or what didn't work? Like if you were to say these are the two things, surprises to the upside or the downside that people don't understand about recovery and what it means to come out the other end sober? Man, I honestly think at this point that being in therapy, and I find myself talking about it, you know, people will ask me a question and it might not have anything to do with rehab or recovery, but I'll draw on an experience that I had in rehab, a story that somebody will tell me that someone told.

29:54And before I know it, I'm in a conversation with somebody else and they're telling me something about themselves being vulnerable. And it's weird, but it's pretty cool because guys like you and I didn't used to dare talk like this. We might, we might, If we were really good friends, talk about it in private. But even then, it wouldn't really, you know, kind of get to the bottom of whatever it is you're dealing with. The therapist part for me has been huge, absolutely huge. You know, I didn't trust anybody. I didn't trust people well enough to tell complete strangers what was going on with me. And when I look back, man, I was just so silly for doing that.

30:41Just so prideful. And like you said, some of this stuff is guilt. Some of it is shame, you know, for things that I've done, things that I've said, things that I've, you know, thought, you know. But the guilt and shame part of doing this publicly to my kids and my ex-wife and my mom and dad, my family and friends, my friends' children who idolized me or idolized me. You know, I thought at that point I was so broken, but I remember thinking, you know, I've got to try to, you know, regain some of this in my life and try to do better and regain the trust of all these people I've let down. So, I don't know, elegant way to pivot to the future of sports, but to try and do it.

31:33You've been in, you've kind of seen sports from a lot of different angles, right? Ranging from a high school athlete to an NBA star to someone who's advising NBA teams, commentating on them. I'm curious, when you look at the ecosystem of sports, what do you see in terms of big trends or how things have changed? Or is there anything that people aren't seeing? It's such an enormous industry right now. It has so much speculation and people talking about it so much. But what do you see that's changing about the world of sport? You know, when we were growing up, it seemed like, you know, the media was pretty fair with the players.

32:18You talked about their wins and losses and the streaks that they were on and he's playing well and he's not playing well and he's hurt and he's not hurt. It's almost like sports media has become like the worst parts of Twitter. or it's, it's that, that's this, I mean, the sewage system of the sewage system, it's that bad. Yeah. You have to have a hot take about everything and you can't, there's no way to have a hot take about everything. You have to agree on some things. Some things are obvious when you watch a game, but anymore, you've got one person sitting there. I'll take this side. You take the other side and it's ridiculous.

33:00And I, I think it's, you know, athletes are pretty weird anyway, but, uh, I think what we're seeing is, you know, you see a lot more athletes that are terrified of the media that don't want to talk to the media that want to go on their boys podcast or their own podcast and get their message out, which to be honest, if I could have done that way back when, I would have probably done. I just feel like, and with sports, now we have, you know, the gambling, Scott, and I'm not going to sit up here. And I was not a sports gambler. I've never bet on a game, a team sport in my life. I was strictly thoroughbreds and blackjack and craps and all that stuff.

33:48It's super dangerous. I'm so glad to hear you say that. It's the fastest growing industry outside of AI right now. Here's what I'll tell you. I blew through, you know, between divorce, but mostly gambling, blew through some$40 million in my career. Thoroughbreds. Now, you can't, you're just betting against the pool in the pool at the racetrack. You can only win or lose so much at a time. And I, you know, it took me till I was 45 to blow through 25 years worth of earnings. If I would have had an app on my phone, because for years I would have to have, I lived in Kentucky, New York Racing Association had a wagering account, a phone wagering account in the 90s.

34:40I got a New York Racing Association account. I would call. I would have to talk to a person. Hey, give me$200 to win on the 6 at Aqueduct. I'd have to do that. It was time consuming. If you ran out of money, you had to send a cashier's check, snail mail, all that stuff. If I had an app on my phone at that time where I make a bet and, oh, I'm out of money and I can just go boop, boop, here you go, put in another$2 ,500, I can't tell you how dangerous that is. And for addicts, especially gambling addicts, you can't stop. And you'll bet on anything at some point where it's just about the action. And the most confounding thing for me when I look back is, what was I doing?

35:34Like, I would take 15 grand to the track. And if I won some, let's say I won 15 grand or 30 grand. That wasn't going to change my life. It wasn't. I was making whatever, playing basketball. But if I do that long enough, it will change my life for the worst. Because I'm going to lose. You lose more days than you win. And once you start chasing the money, it's a wrap. And that's what I would do. You get down, you start, you play all these games in your head with the math, and you start chasing money. And you leave the track, and you're cussing at yourself, and you're throwing things and all that.

36:15And guess what? You got more races the next day. Let's go back and get them. That's the mind of an addict, a gambling addict, I think. Yeah, it's just, I just can't, what you say about gambling and friction, my roommate, my junior year in college at UCLA was a gambling addict. And this really shady guy would show up once a week and take like a hundred bucks from him. And I was clear, oh, that's the bookie. It was so shady. It was so weird that I was never tempted to gamble. But I've got Kevin Hart and Charles Barkley endorsing something. And then I just, it's on my phone and I, for whatever reason, I think I have insight into Arsenal playing Bayern Munich.

37:00Cause you know, I understand football better than most people. And why not make the game a little bit more fun, get that dope ahead. And if it was on, I agree with you so much. And I think you'd be such a wonderful spokesperson here. I think online gaming is a fucking train wreck for young men. Yeah. And imagine Scott, you know, we went to college and you're going, I didn't drink in college, but all my friends did. you know, who I grew up with. They drank, they partied, they did all that stuff. Imagine going to college now. And, you know, I remember fraternity brothers, you know, playing cards and gambling with cards.

37:34I can't imagine the young people out there right now, you know, you're with your boys and you're drinking and you're smoking and you're having fun. You're a young college kid. Let's bet on the game. Yeah, let's bet on the game. It wasn't an option, you know, when we were growing up, not legally anyway. And now it's legal. You talked about Charles well all of the you know and I go way back with Charles we were longtime golf buddies seems like a good guy I want to be clear strikes me as a good guy the league the leagues and uh the players we used to be warned at the beginning of the year you'd have the same same group go around to 30 NBA teams and tell them you don't they put up on the wall behind you pictures this guy's in Miami, this guy's in New York, this guy's in Chicago, do not associate with these people.

38:28These are known gamblers. They're known bookies. Don't associate with them. And so it was a no-no. Everybody knew gambling, sports betting, hell, what are you guys doing knowing the line? Why would you know the line? Like, it was a no-no. And now, because gambling money is figured into the collective bargaining agreement, and the owners get a cut, and the players get a cut, and the salaries have exploded, it kind of goes hand in hand. We've already seen a couple of instances. Shohei Ohtani and his translator in baseball, who gambled away. Shohei didn't, apparently, but his translator stole and gambled away millions of dollars and bet with them.

39:20We just saw a guy named Jonte Porter in the NBA, a marginal NBA player who was betting on himself, betting on his team to lose, and now has been banned for life from the NBA for gambling. And this is an NBA player. Imagine, Scott, imagine small college players who can gamble on their own games under the radar or think that they can gamble on their own games under the radar that aren't making any money. It's a time bomb, in my opinion. We'll be right back.

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41:32I thought of you when I was thinking about college athletes and pay. I'm curious to get your view on whether or not college athletes should be compensated. Yes, they should.

42:10where you can go and make money off of your name, image, and likeness. When I went to the University of Kentucky in 1986, I signed away my name, image, and likeness to the university, and they've had that until just recently. At O 'Bannon. I went to school with the O 'Bannon brothers, and he changed that, right? He changed everything for us. They did. So, yes, but it's not an easy answer. these are young people now they're gonna have to pay taxes but that's a good thing letting these teaching these kids I got into the NBA and got my first check gross 50 ,000 net 33 I turned to my teammates I was 19 20 years old and said I've heard about tax returns when do we get this back and they said what and I said yeah when do we get this money back I said you can't be this dumb We don't get that money back.

43:07I didn't know. But now, you know, kids are making money and you have to pay taxes on it in college. You better be taking a finance class or you put the school better be teaching you a little bit of financial literacy. I didn't have any. Most, most players come from nothing. Most pro players come from nothing and have no fiscal responsibility at all. and hopefully now with the NIL coming along, some adults will make sure that these players just don't go willy-nilly through life knowing nothing about the money they're making. Say in the eighth grade you didn't hit a growth spurt and you ended up being four or five inches shorter and just you could be on the JV team in high school, maybe varsity for a couple years, but absolutely no college prospects and you knew early that sports weren't going to be an option for you.

43:59Do you think your struggles with addiction would have been the same, better or worse? I think probably worse. Yeah. Yeah. Scott, I didn't have any ambition other than that. I didn't have any ambition other than playing sports. If you'd ask me, what do you think you'd be doing, you know, it would be something like coaching basketball, you know, be something in, you know, where I grew up in Owensboro, Kentucky, you played sports and you went to school and when school, for most of my buddies, you know, they played just as much and were, worked just as hard as I did growing up, you know, when school, when our high school season ended, their basketball careers ended for the most of them.

44:53And those guys struggled, you know, they went to college and now they're not, you know, they've been playing basketball with me every day. What do I do now? And if I would have been in that same position with them, oh my God, I can only imagine I would have run off the rails because I would have been, I'm sure at 18 years old, not knowing how to spend my time. I've been doing this forever. I'm sure I would have. I'm not sure, but I can definitely see myself partying and being the guy that can't stop partying. So I think that always was kind of in the back of my mind that, you know, look, man, you need to stay away from this or you'll be a big train wreck.

45:38And it happened anyway, but at least I was able to get my career in there before that took over. And what, you have kids, what advice would you give to parents around kids in sports and competitive sports? You know, another really good question. My dad left me alone, and maybe to the point of too much. I never was, my dad coached and I was on, I would watch his practices all the time. And if I wanted to know something, he would tell me. But he didn't push me. And I liked that, because I saw so many other parents just involved in their kids' stuff. And, you know, I could tell that I was better, maybe considerably better.

46:27And I see these kids working and going. Their parents are getting pissed off at them because they don't want to go to the gym or they're not doing this well enough or that well enough. and I saw so many kids flame out by the time they were in ninth grade, tenth grade, because it was no fun anymore, because their parents made it no fun. And I think the one thing that I've been able to see is that, you know, kids are going to come across this at their own pace. You know, if you push a kid into something, or if you tell a kid they can't do something, they're going to want to do that. And, you know, you just can't live your life, you know, through your kids and their sports and what they do.

47:08You can be there for them, root them on. But, you know, being obsessed with them becoming a Division I athlete or a pro athlete, it's really hard to do. And the odds are that somehow, someway, they're not going to make it there. So, you know, I think you just have to be really, really careful pushing your kids into sports. I got to ask you, or I got to imagine that everyone from the Phoenix Suns to the league itself, when they think, who do we want to come speak to the rookie class? I got to think you're on everyone's short list. So I'm going to assume that's the case. But they don't give you much time.

47:48They say, Rex, we got to go back to practice. You got 10, you know. What are the cliff notes on what you tell? I mean, I feel like the thing that struck me about these athletes, I always felt like they're children. I was a child when I was that age. I was a child. I couldn't have handled the media, the pressure, the money, the temptations, the maturity when you don't get started. I mean, I just wasn't enough of a man to deal with what these boys have to deal with. What, if any, or what are the key points of advice you give to these young men as they're trying to, you know, start a career in professional sports?

48:26yeah you know scott um you have these meetings drug meetings gambling meetings um with with the league you know they'll come in they'll talk to every team throughout the year and uh i was the guy that was sitting in those meetings and those meetings are mandatory like you have to be there but they only get like 45 minutes or an hour and i was the one sitting over in the corner looking at my watch pointing to our gm or whoever it is going they got five more minutes and i'm out of here and like gonna walk out because i gotta go play golf y 'all don't you know you've taken up enough of my time sat there and didn't didn't listen to much of anything that was said don't be that guy is what i tell them is you know every player every athlete is one step away, one wrong step away from never playing again, ever.

49:26And if you haven't prepared your life or prepared enough for what life's going to be like once you finish playing, you're going to struggle because you're going to fill that void with something that's probably not constructive. and you also have to think about this, Scott, and I know you talked about dopamine and endorphins earlier. I grew up playing basketball from age five, and so by age 15, I've made enough game winners to last a lifetime for most people, and when you do that in practice, in games, and you start doing it in front of fans, you don't realize it, but that's a rush. There's a real rush that goes along with it, and it kind of becomes old hat after a while, but then you do it in high school and college and in the NBA, and it becomes kind of something you do, and you do it every single day.

50:23Well, when that's over, it's really over. That's a rush you're never getting back. How are you going to fill it? For me, I filled it with painkillers, and I filled it with going to the track and getting a horse to get up in the final jumps to get that rush. you know it's uh unless you're prepared for the end of your career and my good buddy john lucas always says you know who struggled with addiction uh forever and was the number one pick in the draft in like 1972 he said every athlete dies twice at the end of their careers and at the end of life and you have to be prepared for that and i certainly was not prepared for that and advice not to not to nba players but advice to other dads that have have struggled with their own stuff man your kids are always watching they're always watching and um i'll tell this one little story that's in the book um but my son was about 10 years old and he was in the car with me.

51:34And, you know, I would go to the track every day. And so I had bad tickets, losing tickets that I would have everywhere in the car and the cubby hole and whatever. I had walked into the store. I said, all right, I got to go pay for gas. I'll be right back. Left my son in the car. He's sitting right outside. And I went inside, paid for gas, came back out, put the gas in the car. And right at that time, he was really getting into, you know, math, second, third grade and whatnot. And I came back out in the car and he was so proud of, proud of himself. He had gone through my bad gambling tickets and realized that the number, uh, that I had lost was around$30 ,000 for that day or whatever it was.

52:18And I just remember getting in the car. He was so proud that he added all this up. He didn't even know what he was doing. Didn't know those were gambling losses. And I just remember feeling like the worst, the worst father in the world. for doing that to my kids, exposing them to that. And then the worst part of it was I couldn't stop. I just couldn't stop. And so, you know, I think I went deeper into a hole. So the kids are always watching. Just know it, even if they're little. And at some point, you know, fast forward eight or nine years, and there's my daughter telling me, Dad, what about the gambling?

52:57You got a gambling problem. They're always watching, so be mindful. So, as someone who is entirely, lacks the credentials nor the domain expertise or even the relationship with you to say this, I'm going to say it anyways, I wish you'd forgive yourself. I just feel so much pain and guilt. And I just got to imagine you're this larger than life character with great skills. You make other people feel good. I got to think your kids and everyone around you just want you to forgive yourself and be happy. thanks buddy I I do struggle with it but you know and there are times that I go through their time there are times that I I'll feel good about you know kind of where I am and what I've done but then that that doubt creeps back in I think that I think for me Scott it's just a once you've run your life off the rails or once I did anyway I just go man I didn't even know I had that capability and now that I know I can do that, it scares the shit out of me.

54:03It just does. And so I'm cautious. I continue to try to stay, you know, um, with my, you know, on my therapy and, uh, you know, I have friends that have keys to my place in case I want to spend the day sleeping. They can come get me and, you know, go do things. So I've got safeguards in place, but life's hard. You know, It is. Life's just hard. It's hard for everyone. I'm doing the best I can with it. I can't tell you, Scott, how much those words mean to me. They really do. Don't think I'm just saying that. I know that there are people out there pulling for me. I hope that I do get to a point where I've accepted where I am and what I've done and all that, but it's still a process at this point.

54:51Rex Chapman is considered by many the greatest basketball player ever produced by the state of Kentucky. In two years at the University of Kentucky, he scored over 1 ,000 points, led the Wildcats to a Sweet 16 appearance, and was nicknamed King Rex. He then spent 12 seasons in the NBA. He currently hosts the Smartless podcast, Owned, and his memoir, co-authored with Seth Davis, It's Hard for Me to Live With Me, is out now. He joins us from his home in Phoenix. There are two different stories. There's an athlete who's incredible, who inspires people, goes on to live a good, productive life. And then there's an athlete who's incredible, inspires people, struggles, has a fall, and then comes back and helps other people going through the same thing.

55:36One of those lives is meaningful. The other is profound. You, my brother, are leading a profound life. You're helping people. I really, I mean this sincerely. I wish you the best, and I hope that you register that you're helping other people. Thanks, Scott. I really can't thank you enough.

56:04Algebra of Happiness. I'm headed to Cannes in about a month for the Cannes Creativity Festival, Cannes Lions. It's my favorite conference in the world. I don't love Cannes. I don't love the conference. But the chocolate and peanut butter of that conference in Cannes, oh, it's the best. And I stay at Hotel Du Cap, which is just so fucking fabulous. I buy a 32-euro coffee on the deck there, and I watch the world go by. And I feel like I'm some, I don't know, some Italian magnet having an affair with Brigitte Bardot. And I like that feeling. I like that feeling and then get this get this and a total baller slash douchebag move I hire a guy With a zodiac boat to pick me up from the dock there and I roll down In my suit past the pool and all the all the pool goers And I get on my zodiac and I bomb to the palais and I purposely get off at meta beach They don't let me in there because they don't like me because I think they're mendacious fucks who are ruining the world And word's gotten word's gotten out to them that I believe that so I don't get invited to their parties That's okay.

57:03But I purposely roll up in the Zodiac there and I get out on their fucking dock and no one can stop me because they don't have security on the ocean side. Little rebel dog. Little rebel dog. That's right. He's a little bitey. He's a little bitey. Anyways, I'm going to Cannes. Cannes used to be or is this place where they show advertising and they give out awards. And my favorite ad, hands down, of the last year is this ad from all people. It's from the Norwich City Football Club, and it's in honor of World Mental Health Day. And if you can go check out this ad, type in check in on those around you.

57:40Again, check in on those around you. World Mental Health Day from the Norwich City Football Club. And it's this, you know, every once in a while you see a piece of media that just arrests you. I'm actually watching Little Reindeer right now, and there's a scene in it. I just can't handle it. I had to turn it off. I haven't seen a commercial that has moved me this much. a decade. And it shows these two kind of middle-aged guys. They look like they're in their fifties and they're football fans. And it shows them at the game. And one is very emotive and happy and giving his friend a hard time all the time.

58:14And the other sort of much more introverted, bit morose, bit flat, you know, and then it says, you need to check in on people. And you're saying, oh no, something bad happened to the morose guy. And the morose guy shows up and he puts down a scarf on the chair of his friend, the one that was a little bit happier. And it says, basically, check in on people. Jesus Christ, I'm getting emotional just thinking about it. So in addition to the virtue signaling here, I'm going to do something, and I want to suggest you do the same thing, especially men. And I am going to do this. I am going to write a list of five people, five friends that I haven't talked to in a while, and I'm going to call them, and I'm going to ask them two questions.

58:53The first question, how are you doing? And then the second question is going to be, really, how are you doing? Really, how are you doing? Men, a lot of men kind of die quiet deaths. And men are now committing suicide at four times the rate, four times the rate of women. And I think a lot of it, I'd like to think some of it could potentially be avoided by just checking in and really asking people how you're doing. And also the most powerful way to get someone to open up is to open up yourself. When they say, how are you? Say, well, I'm doing fine, but we're struggling with my youngest and it's putting a real strain on my marriage.

59:36Or I'm worried about money or I'm really disappointed. Everyone's making money in investments and I'm not. And it's really like taking a toll on me mentally. But reach out. Two questions. How are you doing? And then the second one, no, really, how are you doing? This episode was produced by Carolyn Chagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer, and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show.

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