First Time Founders with Ed Elson – This Founder is Disrupting Our Addiction to Our Phones

26:30And I was like, whoa. And it just kind of washed over me. All the things I'd been thinking about for a pretty long time. I went, this is not a sustainable view of the world. If people can't go, not just to a show, but other parts of the public, you know, the public world and have some expectation of privacy. Yeah. You just follow that line logically and you go, well, there's going to be no freedom of expression. No one can take any chances. Artists can't perform. Like, it's not just about distractions. There's a much more existential view towards the whole thing. And so that was kind of my moment where I was like, phone-free space is coming.

27:05It's a thing. And we're going to need to create kind of a national park system of these protected spaces throughout society to protect things we actually, that need to be protected. It's less about the person and what it does to you as a person. I mean, I talk about the distraction and the loneliness and all of that. but what you're really describing is it's actually about the place and it's about the venue and there are certain venues where we have almost a social responsibility to treat each other with some level of respect that a lot of it seems downstream of this privacy thing and i especially get worried about that if we're moving into an ai world where sam altman and johnny ive are developing this new technology where it sounds like what's going to happen is it's going to be some sort of pin or maybe some sort of headset that is constantly recording.

27:57And that's going to be the phone, except it's live and it's on all the time, which is a totally different way of operating. And so I think that that point about we need moments where you know you're not being recorded and you have that assurance is probably going to be important. That idea of recording in these newer devices of the future, maybe, and what they'll do. Yeah. I mean, look, it's back to the tech view of like, do you think you can get something for nothing? Is there such thing as pure progress? Like, let's say you're in London. You want to make the place safer, so you put closed caption television on every street corner, right?

28:35You can make an argument that makes people safer. What's the tradeoff? Personal privacy and the potential for retroactive justice. is that recognized in public discourse that these are trade-offs i don't think it always is but everything is trade-offs to me like anytime something new comes in not labeling it good or bad but it's going to push something out and so i think part of the wrestle like what we're wrestling with this generation and in society at large is what do we value how do we protect what we value adopt what's new not trying to you know hold off the future but also be eyes open about what we're walking into because that view of the world that total transparency and all things is going to create this kind of perfect egalitarian society is pure rubbish yeah it's nonsense and it's going to eviscerate privacy and without privacy there's no such thing as intimacy and there's no such thing as personal expression and i think anyone who can't recognize that is maybe doesn't hasn't looked at history but it's also not looking at the effect the tools are having now.

29:37The counter argument that I'm sure people would say is you can't just stop progress. You can't just stop technology from existing. These things are incredibly useful, incredibly important. We rely on them for so many different things. I don't think you're saying stop it, right? Yeah. Of course not, because first off, it's impossible to do. Secondly, there's incredible advances that have happened in different fields that have allowed people to do things that we couldn't imagine. But also, technology like capitalism, it has its own center of gravity. It won't knock at the door and ask permission to enter in a situation.

30:14So it's like if it's introduced into a scenario where maybe it doesn't jive well with what you're trying to do, let's say, again, a show. Maybe an artist wants to protect their content. But also, why do people go to live shows? You go to a 20 ,000-person arena to step over the threshold, feel the energy in the room, have that build in the presence of a great artist. Some people do it to post it on their stories. That's true. No doubt. No doubt. There are some shows. Yeah. So you go in, that's the experience you want. And in a great show, you get to that kind of static moment. It's not just about people taking photos and stuff.

30:50If people are texting and emailing constantly, that energy kind of bleeds out. So it turns out, I think, in that context, digital devices just don't really help what the show is meant to do. You know what I mean? So it's not about saying the phone is evil. It's going about, like you said, it's back to spaces. How do you create spaces to support what we're trying to support and not totally negate the other? So let's go through the spaces that Yonder is being used for. So schools, it sounds like that's the main one and that's the largest part of the business. Shows, music concerts is what we've gone through so far.

31:23What are some other spaces where Yandere is useful? There's a ton. We're used by a lot of people in the home. We hear about that every day. We're in, obviously, a lot of comedy, a lot of venues. We do a lot with courthouses around the world. So that's it. I find that one very interesting, just because it relates to people being present and paying attention, but also degrees of privacy for people giving testimony. So it kind of cuts through interesting lines. We're using warehousing facilities. We're used in testing centers. We're used on college campuses. We're used for tons of weddings and parties.

31:57So it's a very, very broad range. So you launched in 2014. I assume you're going around the country to different schools, trying to pitch them on this idea. At what point did things really start to take off? At what point did the customer, you realize, oh my God, the TAM here is huge. People really want this. Again, when I started in 2014, you have to remember, I knew nothing about business, nothing about music, nothing about schools, and I was on unemployment. So, no money. I had, you know, a few thousand bucks. So, that's what I started with. So, the early product development and stuff, I went around and tried to do early pitch meetings, you know, in San Francisco, because that's kind of what people did.

32:41And I got laughed out of, like, every room. Oh, yeah. Like, which, in hindsight, was good. a lot of it was on me. I didn't know what I was doing or talking about. I also just didn't like a lot of the personalities I encountered, but it also reinforced. You've been laughed out by VCs or by potential customers? Both, but particularly VCs. Okay. Because it wasn't even that they're. That doesn't surprise me. Yeah. You're the guy who wants to roll back technology and you're pitching it to the technologist. Right. Yeah. I shouldn't have been. I shouldn't have been surprised. But from there, like, you know, the early Yonder product and stuff, like I handmade those in Knob Hill in San Francisco going to the hardware store.

33:19And then I created an account on like Alibaba, you know, I would do this at night. And so all that stuff took me a long time to start to wrap my hands around. So before I even got to the first few thousand pouches that I chucked in the back of my old like Toyota Dolphin camper that I would cruise around in, I was doing all that stuff, going and printing out the little pamphlets I made in Chinatown and like every little thing. And then after that, I was on the ground for about eight months. I'd pitch door to door. I'd go to six schools every single day. I'd go to two or three venues every single night and I'd go door to door trying to sell.

33:53I did it all through the Bay, up through the Northwest and LA. And I did that all before I got a single sale. So in terms of the potential of where the business could go, I knew that from the beginning. I knew where I thought it was going to go, but the reality of getting anyone to remotely adopt it, like that took me a long time. And even then the first show was a burlesque show at a biker bar. in Oakland. I did, I did the gig for free. And from that point, I just kind of, I got lucky and I took shots, you know, like we did at that. Um, I did a little launch party and a reporter came and wrote a little blurb.

34:28After that, we did, I think a show with the electronic artist zoo and like Brooklyn. And you mentioned like flying around the country to meet people. There was no money for flying. Like I did, got one gig, went out there to Brooklyn, brought some, brought my future brother-in-law and a friend we're out there in like eight degree weather outside with these handmade pouches trying to lock up all these young people's phones and just getting screamed at and torn apart so like the whole early growth of yonder was that way when was the moment where it it it exploded and do you think it was because you got good at pitching or do you think it's because society changed and everyone realized we don't want these things around well there's phases of the company there's pre-covid and post-covid so like the trajectory after covid is wildly different we've been kind of turbocharged but the earliest kind of like sense of somebody getting it was with chappelle and by 2015 dave chappelle dave chappelle yeah and he when he kind of came back on the scene one day i got a random call out of the blue and it was his manager and i flew out to to la to meet his manager okay and three days later i was doing a run of shows in chicago not knowing how to do shows of that size.

35:41It was only 3 ,000 people. But that was the first one because that put us on the map. You know, that was a big deal. The shows went okay. And from a yonder perspective, but it was like, it was huge validation that we could start to do something. I think for children and in schools, the kids are probably going to be pissed off. And I know this because when I was in high school, they had these, it was sort of my high school's attempt at doing Yonder, they had these little phone baskets that they would put on the dining tables. And they'd be like, okay, this is the phone basket, everyone put your phone in.

36:17And we laughed it off, we threw the basket off to the side where we don't want this, you guys are telling us what to do. And as a kid, that's frustrating to be told what to do, and so you can't access this thing that you're kind of addicted to. But I think for kids, that's fine. For adults, do you ever have an issue with an adult being like, I can do this on my own. I'll just not look at my phone. But why am I being mandated by you, this random company that I'm not allowed to take my phone out anymore? Is that a big issue? Not to be a broken record, but like all these, there's kind of a time spectrum, you know?

36:54So in the early days, the questions we got and the pushback were way different than they are now. Because at a show, if you're talking to an adult coming in and talking this way, the general awareness of what yonder is, what a phone-free space is, what we do is so much higher that we have very little friction, actually, even at a big show. But still, we'll get questions like that. And a big part of our staff's job on the ground is to go, hey, if you need access to your phone, we understand. You keep it on you at all times. But also, we set up phone use areas inside the venue. They're equivalent of a smoking section.

37:27So if someone says, oh, the babysitter might call me, we're able to say, no worries. You'll have your phone on you. If you need to go use it, just go to one of the marked phone use areas. You can unlock it there and you can use it. So we've always tried to meet people halfway. Like, yes, it is a phone-free show. And yeah, that is a rule. But also, you know, here's what will make it easier for you to do. That's been core to how we approached everything. And even for kids, the interesting thing is now, a lot of kids don't like it. We know that. But a lot of kids, if you pull them aside one-on-one, and teachers do, they'll admit they feel a sense of relief.

38:00They actually do enjoy it. It just takes experiencing it first and getting over the discomfort to kind of get there. Talk a little bit about the business model. How does Yonder make money, and how does that all work? Well, sure. For schools, we provide a full program. The product is one part of that program. Okay. But the most important elements are the pre-planning, the policy, the messaging, everything in the preparation. which is more than it seems. And then there's the kind of implementation and support and rollout, which we a lot of times will do in person, sometimes remote. And then there's the ongoing stuff, which is ongoing support, being there to fix any problems, help collect information that's gonna be helpful for showing the efficacy of the program.

38:43You know, the stats I talked about and huge reductions in fights, you know, academic performance. Talk a little bit more about the effects in schools once pre and post Yonder? Academic performance is huge. So seeing that go up is obviously important. Having a better school environment, more engaging classroom environment is huge for students, but it's also what teachers are looking for. They want to have their kids back. You know, they want to see their eyes. So some of this is quantifiable. Some of this is what you hear from educators. They're going, after Yonder launches, I'm seeing my student, it's so simple.

39:18I'm seeing my student's eyes again. Their body language changes. They're not down. They're not grumpy. Their eyes are open, right? But also disciplinary issues and fights is a big one. I think for people not in schools, thinking about or hearing maybe who are older going, I'm bullying in schools. And you go, all right, well, there's always been bullying. Yeah, there has. But when you add in the phone, it's another dimension of that. Because when I went to school, I was younger, it kind of would boil up during the day, simmer down overnight. Now it's almost the opposite. You know, if you have phones around the school, it kind of keeps going and accelerating.

39:51And then you add in the kind of panopticon effect I talked about of being filmed, recorded, put on the hook, and it's a whole other layer. And then you can have students airdropping to the entire school. There's crazy stories about that. So what we found is, again, going in, establishing what the culture, helping what the school wants to do to create a phone-free culture, but then having all students participate, that's what creates the space for some of these things to improve. So you build those programs with the schools. You also mentioned that you're using Yonder in the home. I assume that's not, you don't come in with a plan for the household.

40:30No, no, that's... How does that work? That's for people to decide. And we have a product on the website for home use. It's a box and people can use it. It also blocks signals if that's important to people. But it's more about creating the ritual of spaces for something other than being on your phone or technology and what they represent. And we find that a lot of parents, especially at yonder schools, they see the benefits of what it's having on their kid in school, and they want to bring those back home. And that's another thing I guess I didn't mention with the program. There's things we see in school, the positive effects.

41:06One of the biggest things we look for is hearing from parents that they notice a change in the pattern of use of the phone from their student at home, which makes sense because you've started to break and develop new habits, which is kind of what it's all about. We'll be right back.

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42:57We're back with First Time Founders. What are some other spaces that you think could benefit from being phone free? So we've said shows, concerts, comedy shows, schools, homes. I mean, at a certain point, it's starting to feel like we're kind of describing like just get rid of them in all of life. But what are some other spaces that you haven't explored yet that you think would benefit from this? I think there's other that are where information is really needs to be private, you know, whether it's around privacy. I think places like that. We've worked with some churches, which has been really fascinating to see that they've wanted to, at the simplest level, just create a place where people can be there and be present.

43:41So I think that's a really interesting one. And then there's always new ones popping up every day. That's the exciting part of our job is we, we hear from people all over the world all the time. And when we do a show, a big show, for instance, like you're getting every subsection of society going to that show, right? And you're going to have a million conversations and people are going to say, I'd like to use this here. So that's part of just the way our business is set up because we have such a large on the ground presence that we're constantly kind of, you know, picking up on those things. Yeah.

44:11You've grown it. It's a big company. You've grown it to over 100 employees um what have been some of the learnings you found about being an entrepreneur but also being a manager of people and of an organization because i kind of fell into the business part i think the most challenging part for me has been to learn the business part of you know of kind of accepting that it is a business and then what i don't know to to become better at that and how to build it so i've learned i mean look if i could go back there's a lot of things I'd do differently. And there's a lot of mistakes I've made and I'm still, still making as I go.

44:45So I think the main thing I've learned and I've stuck with me from the beginning is this idea of a kind of, um, first off, enjoying what you do for the sake of what it is and not what it can bring you. I think that's like foundational. If you're just focused on what something can bring you. And I see this in a lot of, uh, maybe young people coming out of college now, just thinking about the destination, then like the objective can seem so big that there's going to be so many setbacks that can put you off the path, you know? But if you start to embrace, you enjoy what you're doing and you embrace the process of just learning and getting better and trust that it's not who you are today that's going to take you where you want to be.

45:23It's who you're going to be in three, four, five years and how you grow and develop to make those decisions. I think that's the ethos I've tried to inhabit. I think that's a really constructive framework. But in terms of learnings and how I've grown into it, the fact that I'm still growing into it. You know, once I kind of get comfortable with, all right, we're 40 people, then COVID hits. All right, now we're 80 people. Everything changes and changes again. So I'm still, you know, once I get comfortable, I have to adapt to another size and scale and management style that, you know, I guess that's the interesting part of the challenge.

46:00What are your views on the amount of time that we're spending on our computers and how do you use computers and laptops and just other technology that isn't the phone in your business? Do you have any restrictions on that? Do you feel strongly about that? Well, the biggest one I mentioned is that we cut off the use of AI and emails immediately as the feature came out. Yeah. And the reason is, you know, I want a team and a company of people who know how to think critically, know how to communicate, and know what a customer is looking for and how to help them. If you start to off-board those, you can lose that function incredibly fast.

46:37And critical thinking is not, I think, it's not necessarily a native faculty, you know, in humans. No. So you have to develop it. And it's very, if it's not developed, it might not come. So that's the part of AI that I think is, I'm very, you know, leery about. What about social media and specifically like marketing? Like, I mean, you said that you guys aren't on social media except for LinkedIn. It's interesting that you're down with LinkedIn, but not the others, but I kind of get it.

47:11How do you operate a business and how do you become successful? I mean, you're a successful business at this point. How have you done it without social media marketing? I feel like a lot of social media is so, it just bombards people with so much information. And in parts of it feels so lame to me that I just didn't want us to have it as a business. I felt like, you know, you walk down any city street and there's so much visual clutter and advertising and stuff slapped at people. And I just, as a person, I don't like it. It feels chintzy to me. And I guess I wanted Yonder to stand for, very simply, for quality.

47:46That we're going to do what we say we're going to do. And that trust that if we do that, show that an utterly traditional business model of just doing right by our customers, making more money than we spend, could be done and could be effective. Because especially when I started the company, at some degree now, there's been some correction. This idea of raising massive VC money and going out and buying users, and then you'll figure out profitability later. To me, that's not a new business model. That's just a market permutation. That's just spending a boatload of money and then fattening something up to sell it to the next highest bidder.

48:18Yes. And what I didn't like about that is that's, that's indicative of a lot of things in Western culture. Now it becomes very derivative, you know, it's like, you're just creating liquidity to spin it, to spin it, to spin it. I'm like, what's the point of that? Like what we do is we're very direct. We, we help people create a phone-free space. It has a direct effect on their life. That needs to be true in everything we do. So why are we going to put up crummy banner ads that say something else? Or, you know, I've been approached for years about putting ads on yonder pouches. Like that's lucrative and i'm like yeah but it's a shitty thing to do who wants to look at like no knocks on doritos but who wants to look at a doritos ad like on your pad like i don't want to do that yeah so come back at some level maybe to just motives like what do you want what are you doing it for and that to me is why the business has always been second by far to the mission i think it's remarkable to be clear that you guys have hit success without leveraging social media and the fact that you're operating this company without a smartphone.

49:16But you're well positioned to do that because that's the thesis and the mission of the company. Do you think that other companies could, you know, say you're just like a, I don't know, CPG company, say you're Doritos. Do you think other companies could benefit from going the less technological route that you've taken from not advertising on social media, from not using a smartphone constantly. Is that an actual, is that a legitimately viable way to run a business? Or do you think you are in a unique position because of what you offer? It's tough because everything, you know, even with technology and the tools we choose as a society to develop or not develop, right?

50:00There's game theory and everything. It's kind of like, well, if we don't do it, someone else will do it. And it kind of drives everybody faster towards the abyss a little bit. But that's a hard one to unravel. I do think it's possible to instill a culture and use tools or not use them that can have much better effects than people realize. I think that is possible. Like when I was in San Francisco, there's the adage and still is of move fast and break things. I met a lot of people over the years there who I was pretty sure were breaking a lot of things and not building a ton of stuff because they were just like, their head was about to pop off their body.

50:32They were just doing so many things and frantically optimizing and shooting emails unthinkingly. I was like, so our ethos as a company has been, and we try to mirror this in the tools we use is, you know, basically speed walk, but don't spill your drink. It's not like we move, you know, don't lose your head in the things you do. And I feel like, you know, creating structure. Yeah, at a certain point, it's just not even productive. I mean, I think it's sort of like the Elon Doge model, where it's like, let's just get in there, be an absolute wrecking ball. And it looks productive because they're making all these announcements and they're saying all this stuff about, here's what we cut, here's what we did.

51:07And then by the end of it, he leaves. I'm sorry to bring politics into this, but I think it fits. He leaves and it's like, oh, Doge is being shut down now. And they made however many cuts, which is just going to be added on again in the deficit. It's just a perfect example of just because you're taking on this wrecking ball mentality doesn't mean you're actually getting stuff done. And it sounds like that's kind of what your ethos too. I think so. I think if you measure twice, cut once attitude, it turns out to be faster, even in the startup world. And if there's one piece of advice I could give myself way back is like, don't lose the urgency.

51:47You need the urgency to build something. Totally. But sometimes if I could have accepted to make one good decision in a week and do nothing else. Yes. Good God, how much time I would have saved in the long run versus trying to do 50 things and shoehorning that one really important decision. Right. Into amidst those, you know, that's still it's tough to practice that even today. But like, boy, that that would be helpful. Yeah. It's like focused urgency versus just spray and pray urgency. Well, getting yourself in the right frame of mind to make important decisions. Because, again, if you're on social media reading the news, you could be kind of tasked with 20 decisions before lunch.

52:27So then when an important decision comes up, you've got decision fatigue. You've got nothing left. Yeah. And I think that's another aspect is you have to protect your frame of mind a bit. So when important things come up, you know what's important. Exactly. Talk a little bit about the fundraising. Have you raised venture funding? how did that how did that all work yeah so in the early days it was you know like i said i funded it myself and then i did uh some very early friends and family very small amount the first kind of real investor we had was actually dave chappelle oh wow yeah so he came in and that was great on many levels because he's kind of for us he's a he's a north star and you know artist but also he's he's tied to the business which which means a lot so that was an important mark for us and then And much later, really, coming out of COVID, we did a little larger round, but still no institutional money.

53:21And then now we're in a position where, again, we're profitable and we're growing. So we kind of have the ball in our hands. And that was a decision I made very early in the company was after those terrible VC pitches, which I probably would have back then wanted them to go well. I'm glad now they didn't. I realized that also a lot of this decision points we've talked about, you know, how to grow, what tools to use, social media, advertising. I couldn't have made any of those choices if someone else owned yonder, you know. So it's been a harder path. It's been a longer path. But I still can dictate what I want the company to do.

53:57And I don't need to answer to people who are following a playbook. And it's not a knock on VCs. I know that they have LPs and they have a return profile they look for. I just thought for the type of company I wanted Yonder to be and the longevity of it at those stages of the business it wasn't it wasn't really what I was looking for it sounds like we both agree we're not going to get rid of phones phones are going to exist but if you had to build sort of an ideal world in 2025 where phones exist what would that look like what would a society look like that is healthier and had a healthier relationship with the smartphone today, how would that play out?

54:41Maybe social media, phones, digital tools being in some ways less of a centerpiece of people's lives. It's hard because so much work happens now through that, and I recognize that. But at the personal level, I think if people put more weight on the experiences they have without them and the things they enjoy doing in the physical world and with community. I think that's a shift. And I think a way we'll maybe know if and when that happens is to see young people taking more chances and maybe seeing it as, you know, you mentioned earlier, do kids like yonder and does it take something away? I guess the way I try to talk to them about it is like when you step into the digital world, you're stepping into a board that is already set for you.

55:22There is personal expression, there's information to find and useful information but the adventure the exploration the rebelliousness that a counterculture kind of requires and for young people to find their feet and to change the world like isn't it a little more raw to go out in the world and do that without those things and maybe if you try you'll like it you know maybe that's a vision of the world that i i hope comes about graham dugoni is the founder and ceo of yonder this was great thank you for joining me thank you ed

55:54This episode was produced by Claire Miller and Alison Weiss and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producer is Dan Shallon. Thank you for listening to First Time Founders from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'll see you next month with another founder story.

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