First Time Founders with Ed Elson – This Founder Makes Viral TV Shows For TikTok

23:18Those people will be using these platforms to become the next generation of filmmakers. I think why you don't see more like dramas or sort of another side of the scripted narrative part is it just more expensive. Like as soon as you have a script, you need actors. As soon as you have actors, you need makeup. Then you need props and you need a set and you need lighting and then you need a grip and a gaffer. and then you kind of end up being stuck in the same situation. And so I think like it is the low budget formats that are going to thrive the most on these platforms. And if you look at just traditional Hollywood, the low budget, you know, genres have always been unscripted in horror.

23:49It sounds like we don't care that much about quality anymore because the experience is only going to last 30 seconds and you can just scroll. And that's where, I mean, I think I was always taught as a young person who made a bunch of short films, like don't think that you need an Ari Alexa, think that you need a good script and that you need, you do need good audio. That's the one thing you really do need. But otherwise, like no one cares what camera you film this thing on. And the other thing is we're dealing with a generation of kids who have consumed advertisements since the day they were born.

24:16And so I actually think at this point, when they see an Ari Alexa filmed piece of content on their feed, they think it's an ad and they want to scroll immediately. We shoot everything we do on Sony FX3s. It's like the perfect balance of looking like it was made for you while still feeling professional. And so like when you do scroll up on one of our shows, But what do you mean by looking like it was made for you? Like sort of looking at casual? It looks like it still feels like it fits on the platform. It doesn't feel like, oh, this person spent a million dollars and is trying to fit in. It's like, okay, this was like just lo-fi enough where it still makes sense here, but it's hi-fi enough where it's not just like an iPhone video.

24:52And I think that's probably the camera we're going to continue to film our content on forever in the short form space. Why is that important? This is something I've been finding really interesting about our generation where we have sort of this weird obsession with authenticity. And we're extremely sensitive to bullshit, I think, because we've consumed so many ads. I mean, the number is we consume 300 ads per hour, which is up tenfold from what our parents were experiencing. So it does feel that we are extremely sensitive, or we can just sort of sniff ads out out of nowhere. But what you're describing is interesting because you're kind of saying we are intentionally making it low production to make it sort of look more authentic perhaps than it actually is take us through what you're what i would also say it's a cost thing too like shooting on these sony fx3 is like my sets have never been more than three people you know and so you have two people both holding the cameras that also have the microphones on them and you have a host and a producer like that's what our crew looks like and if i had an aria alexa i would need a dp i would need lighting i would need a grip and a gaffer.

25:59And like, the reality is spending all that money is not going to make a better piece of content on these platforms. So it's both something that I think performs better in the platform, but it's also, it allows our business model to work. Like to put it simply season one, a boy room, we produced 22 episodes, only 14 of which came out. Some of the guys just either weren't messy enough or like we're pretending to be messy. And we threw those episodes out. But of those 22 episodes that we shot, the entire thing costs us$48 ,000. That's impossible. That's a coffee budget on an HBO show. And so, like, why, again, it's like, but then we found the market fit, right?

26:35Like, we know now that Boy Room is a hit show. And there's a world where that does turn into a TV show at some point. And, like, this kind of turns into the comic book model, where it's like, we can go generate IP at a fraction of the cost of Hollywood and then decide what we want to do with it. I think there's a version where some of our shows turn into just 18 to 20 minute YouTube shows. I think there's another world where some of them turn into TV shows. But at the end of the day, it is creating IP at a fraction of the cost. One of your investors is kind of peak Hollywood. That is Jeremy Zimmer, who's the CEO of UTA, which is basically one of the biggest entertainment talent agencies in the world.

27:10What does he think of you? But more generally, what does Hollywood think? Have people come up to you? Do they like you? Are they scared of you? What do they think? It's a combination of all of them. Um, and I was so honored that Jeremy wanted to be in the round. He's become a close friend and it's been really nice to be able to call on him and pick his brain. I think the older generation of entertainment sees the rising tide and knows to start looking at where, where things are going. I also think the older generation have kids old enough to recognize their viewing habits have changed. Right. And can actually be a witness to the fact of like, oh, we're fucked.

27:43They have to experience it themselves. Whereas like the 30 something year old creative executive who grew up in a different industry, who's hoping to still have their big Oscar moment. They hate me and they hate TikTok and they hate the platform. And you can see it anytime there's any article about anything we produce, all the comments are like, can we just ban this thing already? I hate this thing. And it's like, I wish they would just download TikTok because I know they would have actually the greatest time of all time. And then they would start agreeing with it. The other thing is like, we're not supposed to be competition.

28:10Like, come on in. The water's warm. The entire history of television can be recreated on this platform, and it's not going to be done by just one studio. You mentioned, can we ban this thing already? TikTok might get banned. What do you think of that? It's a touchy subject. What I will say is I think you can't put the short-form content thing back in the hat. I think we love consuming content this way. And so if it were to go away tomorrow, I think some of that viewership would go to Instagram Reels. I think some would go to YouTube Shorts. although I think YouTube is afraid of shorts a little bit because it cannibalizes what's an amazing business for them, which is longer form content.

28:47I think there's probably space for a new app to come in only because of what I said earlier, which is like that consumer habit about TikTok of just opening it to consume content is not the same on Instagram. Instagram, I'm going on first to see my DMs, to look at my stories, see things from my friends, and then maybe I'll get stuck in like a brain rot, you know, Reels feed. But it's not the thing that I'm going on Instagram for. So, I just think you can't put this thing back in the bag. And for us, like, we're going to continue to be on every single platform that's available because we think that we're going to forever have the best content on that platform.

29:18I'd like to get into Instagram Reels. 730 million active users on Instagram Reels. So it's sort of, it's still behind TikTok, which is at 1.6 billion, but it's definitely catching up. Break down for us why you think that's an important distinction, that Instagram Reels is a component of the Instagram experience versus the entire product. Why do you think that makes it so substantially different from TikTok? It's almost too social, you know? And I think the thing that's so magical about TikTok is like, again, I actually don't want to see content from my friends because they probably don't make good videos.

29:54And when I'm like watching a funny video on TikTok from a stranger, the first thing I do is open the comments and like I read other funny comments and like that's my experience. Like I don't need to have my friends be on that platform. With Instagram, it's tricky. I think there's so many distractions on the platform because you have incoming DMs and you want to see posts from your friends. That longer form content just kind of suffers on the platform. I will say, like, Boy Room does pretty amazingly on Reels. We get anywhere from half a million to a million viewers an episode on the platform. So, like, still really happy with it.

30:24But I think, like, when I open my Reels tab, the average length of the video that I would say it shows me is probably around 20 seconds long, and almost all of them are memes. And that works really well for the platform. The entire point of reels on Instagram is they want to show you content that you're going to send to your friends because that makes them watch the content. And like you're more likely to send a meme to your friend than maybe an episode of a show. So I'm excited to see how they change that. I've heard rumors that they want to do longer form content and start prioritizing that in the algorithm.

30:52I hope they do. And we're just going to continue posting there until that happens. But the only difference for us as well is like on Instagram reels, in order to be in the algorithm, your content has to be under 90 seconds long. sometimes our TikTok content will be two and a half, three, three and a half minutes long. And so we end up cutting our content differently based on the platform we're posting it to. How have you found sort of grappling with the algorithm? I feel like that's another huge part of this because in Hollywood, it used to be that the barrier to entry was, could you get past the executives?

31:27Did the guy in the room like you? And it's now at a point where it's, does the algorithm like you. And in a lot of ways, that makes things easier because it means that you can just sort of pull yourself up by your bootstraps and just get involved immediately at very low costs. But also, you don't even know what they want. We don't know how the algorithm works. It's this sort of mythical beast that we can't truly understand. You've kind of cracked it, though. What does the algorithm want? Good shit. I've never disagreed with what it has made perform for us and what it hasn't. Like literally as a company, anytime we've posted something that hasn't performed, the next day we've all been like, yeah, it kind of sucked.

32:06That was pretty shitty. And I think like Bodega Run was part of that. Like by the end of it, it was just like, we didn't have any heart in the show whatsoever. And so I don't know, that might be my famous last words and the algorithm shifts and all of a sudden I'm fucked, but I haven't seen that to be the case yet. You know, I think it's really good about testing content in front of an audience until it finds the audience that will like your content. You know, I'll say like a story from Boy Room. We post the first episode on Instagram, gets like 250k views. We're like, that's sick. Posted on TikTok gets 147 views.

32:39We're like, okay. Post the second episode on Instagram gets 300 ,000 views. On TikTok gets like 205 views. We're like, what is happening? This is an amazing show. Maybe it's not showing it to people. I'm starting to have conspiracy theories. I have 18 accounts on my phone. Maybe it's shadow banning me. That's the best. Everyone thinks they're shadow banned when their content doesn't perform. No, your content just sucks. But I look in the back end and it's like, no, it is showing it on the For You page. And I can see when people are dropping off and it's in the first three seconds. I'm like, okay, what's happening in the first three seconds?

33:09And it's this like loud TV show intro. Welcome to Boy Room, the show where we investigate boy's roots. We're like, okay, episode three, no intro. We're just going to drop into the show. Yeah. That one difference was enough to get 4 million views in 24 hours. And over 30 ,000 followers on that account. It's good. It knows what it's doing. And that change was the right creative call on that show. And so I think like, again, people think that they have to cater to the algorithm in the Mr. Beast way. And we're trying to prove that you don't. We'll be right back.

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35:18We're back with First Time Founders. You recently went to the DNC. Why did you do that? I actually always say that you can track the changes in consumption media through politics faster than anything else. Like, I think about Obama going on between two ferns in 2011, I want to say, to talk about Obamacare. I can even remember in 2016 when Trump won, the still remaining importance of the late night hosts kind of like shedding a tear on stage for America of like, oh my God, Trump is president. And you look at it now and it's like Trump is going on Aiden Ross. Kamala is giving more access to creators and influencers than, you know, the press.

35:57And I think that's reflective of like where everything's going because they need the people. They need the votes. So they're going to go where the people are. And so politics just turns at a much faster rate. We were at the DNC because we brought city council member Chiyose from Bedside and Crown Heights over there, who is someone that we've worked really closely with out of passion. really believe in him being a future voice of the Democratic Party. And we started working with him because last summer, New York's Rent Guidelines Board was going to decide how much to increase rent-stabilize rents.

36:29And they were debating whether or not to raise it by 16%. This is post-pandemic. People are struggling. A lot of people are going to be put on the streets if something like that passes. And she comes to me and my friend Peter McIndoe, who started Birds Aren't Real, and he says, I need to get people to this hearing. because the people that this policy will affect don't know that there's a hearing on Thursday where they are waiting to hear testimonies. He's like, I have 2 ,000 followers. I have no idea how to engage. Like the greater New York area, I think I'm fucked. And we're like, don't worry.

37:00We go to his office with just an iPhone. We script this video that kind of gets that message out in just like a perfect quick 60 second way. That video gets a million views in 24 hours from New Yorkers three days later for a room that had a capacity of 250 people, over a thousand people showed up. And every single person in line, I have the video, shakes cheese hand and says, I'm only here because of your video. New York ends up only raising rent stabilized rent by 3%. So that for us was like our first foray ever into politics and figuring out how can we use what we know about these platforms to help push policy, to help make change around the country and maybe the world.

37:40And so I think for us, like we have a huge interest in just kind of continuing that conversation and seeing what else we can do in this space. So do you think politicians are underusing this platform? And was that sort of the idea that you wanted to get the word out to these politicians, you need to be on TikTok? I think there are two politicians that are amazing at TikTok. I think it's Congressman Jeff Jackson out of North Carolina, and I think it's GSA. That's it. I think AOC is incredible at using Instagram. I wish he would call us for TikTok. It is crazy to me how much every politician is still being led by like social, you know, marketing teams who want them to do these dumb trends and silly sounds.

38:18And it treats young audiences specifically as idiots. People want to be talked to like adults. They want to hear what's going on in the world. Congressman Jeff Jackson was a freshman term congressman who just started talking to the camera as like America's dad about here's what's going on in Congress right now. He gets an average of like four or five million views of video. That's impossible. No freshman congressman has ever had to reach that big. And so it's frustrating. I think it's like people really think they need to dumb themselves down for people to like them. And the reality is like, they just need to be themselves.

38:46What do you think of Brat? Specifically in its relation to Kamala? I mean, the reason I bring that up is because it feels very kind of adjacent to the trend that you're talking about where the social media account of Kamala Harris, it was handed over to, I guess, a young person who was a fan of Charlie XCX and sort of associated Brat and all of that teen meme culture with the Harris campaign, and it has exploded. But it feels, in my view, very similar to what you have described, where it's kind of, these politicians don't really understand these meme cultures, but they're being told by their younger employees, you should just do it because people will like it.

39:31and it's resonated in a really big way. But I don't think, in my view at least, it doesn't seem that genuine to Kamala, but maybe that doesn't matter. What is your view on that whole internet sensation? It gets millions of views. It gets millions of likes. It makes everyone on Twitter love it that lives in New York City and LA. The reality is this election is 50-50. It's likely going to be decided by a few thousand votes. Young men have abandoned the Democratic Party. So it's all fun and games, but we're missing the point. And I think the Democratic Party specifically likes to usually blame this on so many different factors.

40:06It's their fault. And they are not speaking on the issues that they care about to the people that matter most. And so I cringe the more that we talk about Brad Summer. It was fun for a day, and I loved the meme, and I loved all the new excitement when Biden dropped out of the race. But this is not speaking to those 5 ,000 votes that will decide this election. I just want to talk about news as well. I mean, similar to what we're talking about, but 40 % of Gen Z today regularly gets their news from TikTok. And that number is up from 9 % in 2020. So TikTok is fast becoming a news platform. I mean, it is the new TV.

40:40So what are your thoughts on the fact that we're getting on news from TikTok? Is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Where do you stand on this? I think it can be an amazing thing. I think, again, this is a space that needs more trusted voices that needs more serious shows that have like the checks and balances that like ensure the right information is being said. My only fear about 40 % of people getting their news from TikTok is there's very little fact checking on this platform. And I will see a video that is literal fake news come up in my feed. And no one leaves the platform when they're on it.

41:13It's not like, okay, I saw this video. Now let me go on Google and see if this is actually real or not. No one's doing that. What they do is they click on the comments and the comments likely validate that belief system because all of a sudden the comments are, I can't believe this is true. And it's like, I guess it's true. It's like, no, this isn't fucking true. No part of this is true. But now this person's going to repeat it in person as if it is. And the other thing, which is the sad part of these platforms is like, you are likely being radicalized by an algorithm that really knows what you like and what you want to see.

41:40And you're not seeing what's on the other side. Do you think the algorithm is being engineered by the Chinese government? All I will say is, I don't know what to say there in between a rock and a hard place. Yeah. What I will say is I think we are our own worst enemy. And I think the issue with these algorithms is like, they actually understand human nature. And, and the reality is like, we, we like these things. It's like Trump didn't cause any of this. He was the effect of all of this. Um, we are in very divisive times because we are really upset with each other. We're not really wanting to look at each other in the eyes anymore.

42:20I think that's the area that I'd like to focus most of my time on. I love this country. I think it's the greatest country on earth. And I want to get us to a place where we can be across the aisle from each other and still shake hands and realize like we still want the same things. We just have different approaches. As we wrap up here, I do want to get a sort of a sense of how things work for you. What is your production process look like? I mean, if someone wants to go out there and produce a TikTok show, what do they do? I'll give the boyroom example because I think it's a really fun one. Rachel came into our office on a Tuesday.

42:54She pitched boyroom. That Friday, we shot a pilot with my friend Peter that will never see the light of day because he was very upset with me. That was enough for us to realize we wanted to go make the show. The following week, we shot three episodes. The week after that, we posted the first two. So it's a matter of weeks. And that for us is significantly longer than the average TikTok user. You know, us spending 50K on a season is a fraction of Hollywood. It's still more than anyone is spending on this platform. So you don't need anything. All you need is a really good idea and just know how to address your audience a little bit faster than usual.

43:27And you'll have a hit. And I think the thing that I'm really surprised by is I feel like I've sort of been shouting from the rooftops for two years about like this being television, this being the space to create the next generation of formats. And I'm kind of shocked at how few people have taken the Yes, exactly. I was going to ask, are there any competitors that you're seeing? There's a few companies in this space who make really fun, you know, content. A lot of man on the street stuff. What I haven't seen in this space that I think we're really good at is creating like real traditional TV show formats.

43:58I think when people start seeing the business that is here, it might be a space that's flush with capital again and having people start these companies. I welcome it because I think the thing that will help most is having other things to point at as successes as you have these conversations with brands who you do need to help make this content. And so I want there to be more people in this space. I'm looking forward to a time that there's four or five other great studios. And until then, we're just going to try to figure out what show you want next. I think a part of it, and I'm just going to speak from personal experience here, it seems kind of easy because of how short TikToks are.

44:34and you just, you know, it's such a fleeting experience and it's a throwaway experience. And the fact that you can just scroll past it, it's like, what was the point of that? And I feel that from, you know, I also believe in the importance of short form, but I found that it's actually very difficult to mobilize that effort because it's a lot more effort and time than you think for a payoff that feels just a lot less satisfying. And, you know, if you release your hit movie and you do the red carpet and you get an Emmy and all this stuff. And it's like, it feels like a lot of the reason I would imagine just from my experience why people are not doing it is because it's like, this is just fucking pain to have to do this over and over again.

45:18It is the least sexy business on earth. And I think like, again, part of the reason why a lot of people from traditional haven't entered this space is like you're not going to get a Deadline Hollywood article. Granted, our shows have been in every major publication on earth. but the behind the scenes of that isn't really reported on. So there is no red carpet. It's a micro budget. And the interesting thing now is like, because we've had so many hits, we are being approached by all the agencies and management companies offering up like pretty big talent, whether it's athletes or A-list actors who basically are, you know, upset that they don't have a digital presence of their own.

45:50Maybe they want to build a brand long-term in a space that they've never really talked about before. And they're positioning their talent. It's like, can they host a show? And the only thing that I say to them is basically what you're saying. It's like, if they want a star wagon on set and they think they're going to be pampered, like, it's just not the right opportunity. If they're really wanting to get their hands dirty and, like, get in the thick of this thing, we will make a hit show together. And, you know, that scares certain people away, but it does attract the right crowd. So did people say, no, not good enough for me?

46:16I think managers know their talent best, and so they know which of their talent could be open to this idea and not. I also think that, like, the other scary thing about TikTok is viewership is public. and I think a lot of people don't want people to know how few people listen to their podcast or watch, you know, watch their show. Yeah. It's so interesting. Um, well, I feel like we could go on for hours, but I think I'm going to, I'm going to start to wrap it up here. Um, we've talked a lot about people working in Hollywood, writers, producers on a recent episode on Grofty markets. We talked about, you know, what's going to happen to costume designers and what's going to happen to makeup artists, etc.

46:57Lionsgate just partnered with an AI company that's going to do their storyboarding. AI is coming. Do you have any advice to people working in Hollywood who are concerned about their job security, concerned about the future of entertainment? What would be your advice to someone in that position? It's really hard. And I say this as a born and raised Angelino. When I go back home, you can feel the despair. I don't think people realize the below-the-line workers that make every movie and TV show possible. They're not thinking about the costume designers and the set designers and the PAs and the grips and the gaffers and the truck drivers.

47:37It is an industry that is built off the back of middle-class workers, and you feel that in LA because restaurants are closing, stores are closing, people aren't going out the way that they used to because they have less money in their pocket. And I don't think that we can hope that Hollywood's going to come back. This might be what it looks like for a very long time. And so that's not the most uplifting answer, but it is a reality check that I think a lot of people need to start having with themselves. Do you think that they need to just pivot to something else? They might need to. Adam is the head coach and co-founder of Gymnasium.

48:12Adam, this was epic, and I just agree with all of your takes. I hate to end it on such a grim note. It's good. Maybe that's the kick that we need. I know. It's important. Appreciate your time. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me.

48:30Our producer is Claire Miller. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. And our engineer is Benjamin Spencer. Catherine Dillon is our executive producer. Thank you for listening to first-time founders from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tune in tomorrow for Profity Markets.

48:50Thank you.