How to Fight Fascism in America — with Timothy Snyder

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25:31So if I'm being an alarmist or paranoid, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. And I want you to tell me if I'm wrong. But I look at 1920s Germany, thriving gay community, appreciation for academics, the arts, a progressive culture, welcomed immigrants, an economic shock, a move towards fascism. and then something that really struck me, there was a 10-second TikTok where a guy just said, remember that Auschwitz was in Poland. And I look at what's going on here. And when you start rounding up people, it takes on a different complexion. But I would argue we're one economic shock away in the US from accelerating what we already, I would term as rounding up people for the wrong tattoo and shipping them off to another country such that we don't have to hold to the same standards of due process or humanity.

26:20One, am I being an alarmist believing that we're actually not as far as people would like to think from a really, really ugly situation? And does this have echoes of different situations? Do you see another nation at this point in history and where, you know, that helps kind of draw or fill in the blanks around where this is going? Let me zoom way back out and then let me zoom in. So the comparison to Germany in the first third of the 20th century can be very helpful in the following way. The 20th century, as your question already suggests, could have been Germany's century. There was an awful lot working in their favor.

27:08There was a very rich and heterogeneous civil society. There were the best scientists and engineers probably in the world active before the early 30s in Germany. there was a flawed but nevertheless plausible parliamentary system. There was an economy which, pound for pound, was overtaking everybody else's, right? So the United States was going to be a big deal in the 20th century, but there's a way in which the 20th century could have belonged to Germany, and they did the one thing, in my view, the one thing which could have prevented that, which was have someone who was the most extreme version of an extreme party come to power with the connivance of business elites and with the misunderstanding or willful misunderstanding of conservatives that somehow he could be controlled.

28:01That was the one thing, and they did it. And so when you look at the U.S. in the 21st century, one way to look at this is the 21st century probably should belong to the U.S. There are all sorts of positive things. There's the technology, the civil society, the universities, etc., etc. But there is one thing we can do to prevent that from happening, and we seem to be doing that one thing. Okay, now let me zoom in. So the big thing about Auschwitz and Poland, it's important. I have to contest that formulation because there wasn't a Poland at the time. By the time that Auschwitz was established on the territory of what had been a Polish army base at Ospiansham, Poland had been destroyed.

28:42But this helps to make the point just in a slightly more subtle way, which is important. The killing of Jews in Germany didn't happen in Germany. It happened in zones which the Germans decided were stateless, in zones where the law didn't apply. And so that could be a concentration camp. The definition of a concentration camp is a lawless zone. But it could also be a broad swath of territory to the east where the Germans said, we've destroyed the state, whether it's Poland or the Soviet Union, we've destroyed the state, and so the rules don't apply. That for me is the dangerous thing, right? Not exactly another country, although that's important, but the idea of statelessness.

29:21The notion that what we're going to do is we're going to decide that certain people are beyond the protection of the state in general. Once you do that, then it becomes much easier to ship them away and it becomes much easier to kill them. That's chilling. You had mentioned something about, I forgot the word you used, the cooperation between Hitler and the industrial base or corporations or corporate leadership. And I don't think enough people know the history around the alliance between, I think it was loosely corporations asked, said, Hitler, if you crush the trade unions, we'll support you.

29:55And then it just ran away from them. And I see real parallels here and now, and that is, I'm not exaggerating. I've probably talked to a dozen Fortune 500 CEOs who are just so angry and upset and think what Trump is doing is so wrong, and not a goddamn one of them has spoken out. Because they think, short-term, my obligation is to shareholders, and the easiest thing to do is bend a knee, send a million dollars to the Inauguration Committee, and not speak out. And this feels eerily similar to the same type of enablement or loose cooperation or conspiracy between corporate leaders in Germany. Any thoughts on whether there are parallels there?

30:36That's such an interesting question. And I feel like just pivoting a little bit, Scott, this is really a moment when it would help if Americans listened to other people. So it's all well and good, and I'm glad to do it for us to be sitting here and talking about historical parallels. But there are actually lots of German businessmen and women today and German foundations who act on the basis of what they think they learned in the 1930s. And so, I mean, maybe I'm wrong in something like this has already happened, but there's probably much to be said for some kind of summit precisely among American and German CEOs to talk about the question that you've just asked.

31:14Because, you know, there are plenty of people now in Germany who are running corporations extremely well, but you have these kinds of lessons on their mind all the time. And that's also, for me, a broader lesson, if you'll just forgive me to extend the pivot. It's a broader lesson about resistance in the US now in general. There are a lot of folks from Ukraine or Poland, successful cases, or even people from mixed cases like Slovenia or Hungary, who have an experience that is really relevant to this moment. and I feel like we don't do enough to reach out to them and to get that relevant experience.

31:52We tend to be trapped in our own exceptionalism and say, okay, something's happened. It's never happened to anybody before. What could we possibly learn? And then we spend that moment obsessing about ourselves and then we move on to the next moment. Yeah, but getting back to your question, there were sort of two stages to this. The first is that you think it's okay because he's against the labor unions. And that really was the problem the first time around, that German businesses were against, I mean, this is a little bit stronger, but they were against democracy because they thought in democracy, the labor unions were too strong.

32:23And so that's not exactly the case now, but it's something that CEOs should be thinking about. Am I being drawn towards something because I think these are the ones who are harder on the trade unions than the other ones? And then the second move, which you also already see, is the solicitation of specific companies on the premise that they can make money under this regime in a way they couldn't have made it before. Like Auschwitz, to use something you mentioned earlier. German companies are brought to Auschwitz on the principle that, look, there's going to be cheap, controlled labor. There's access to water.

32:54We can do chemical manufacturing here. This is a good site. It's going to be profitable. And of course, there's also money to be made by rounding up American migrants. There's money to be made by creating a surveillance state. And so particular companies are being recruited into that. So yeah, there's, I mean, capitalism doesn't push obviously one way or another, right? Like it's wrong to think that capitalism automatically generates fascism. It's certainly also wrong to think that capitalism automatically generates democracy. The people who are in charge of companies are historical actors. And we know not just from the history of Germany, but from the history of coups and countercoups in general, that how the leaders of industry react matters a great deal to how things turn out.

33:39So we've been talking a lot about Trump. Any historical reference or analogies explaining or comparing similar situations to what's going on with Elon Musk, wealthiest man in the world, the seizure of what I would argue who's a power that's not constitutional at the approval of the president. And just, I haven't seen anything like this in my lifetime. What historical references can you ground Elon Musk in, if any? Number one, it's fine. We've been talking about the 20s and the 30s. And the Marxist analysis of fascism back then was that it had to do with the wealthiest of people, which it wasn't true.

34:27I mean, as we've talked about, certainly capitalists played a role in the rise of Hitler to power, and then certain capitalists profited in certain ways, which are worth remembering from Nazi rule. But it wasn't actually the oligarchs of the world, right? There was no overall plan of global capitalism to bring people like Hitler to power. A hundred years later, there is. That's the ironic thing. Like 100 years later, we do have people like Elon Musk who do have huge amounts of global power and who are quite literally trying to bring fascists to power around the world. And maybe it's, you know, maybe it's for reasons of ideology.

35:05Maybe it's reasons of convenience because they don't like state power and state because state power can regulate their companies. But we actually now do have a thing which was, I think, talked about 100 years ago, but not real. And that was real, but not talked about, which is, you know, not that all oligarchs are fascists. I mean, there are oligarchs all over the place politically, but we do have fascist oligarchs and we have fascist promoting oligarchs. We have oligarchs who are promoting fascism. So that's not exactly historical precedent. It's more like historical irony that we have the thing now.

35:32I gave a lecture a couple of weeks ago in New York at the public library about paganism, which was a little bit bold on my part, but a little bit humorous because I think we need humor. But I think the kinds of politics we're talking about where people worship a leader, that's fascist, right? The way that people worship Elon Musk is fascist. But the way that Musk and Trump and so on operate by giving out gifts, the sort of everyday corruption, or if you want to put it in an anthropologically neutral way, a gift-giving culture where politics is reduced to there's a chieftain at the center and the chieftain has the authority to give gifts and expects gifts in return.

36:15I think there's a reason why that's not familiar historically or, you know, personally to you or to me. And that's because that's essentially a pre-Christian or a pre-state way of doing things. They're chieftains, they come and go, their power depends upon charisma plus the ability to give gifts. I think that's where we are. And it's an almost pre-historical way of doing politics, which is why history flails a little bit when you try to find historical analogies for it. We'll be right back.

37:06We'll see you next time.

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38:00From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and Heavyweight is back. The new season is bigger than ever. Bigger hopes? I keep waiting for this moment when he says, Mom, I get it. I'm sorry. Bigger dreams. Tom Hanks wants to meet with you. This is a real chance. And bigger heartbreaks. I thought it would be my movie moment. And maybe he would even whisper in my ear, I've always been in love with you. Check out new episodes of Heavyweight on Apple Podcasts.

38:45We're back with more from Timothy Snyder. So something I've just been unable to wrap my head around, and rather than just attacking them for these actions or these gestures, Steve Bannon and Elon Musk, in my view, purposely gave Nazi salutes. And I'm trying to wrap my head around, what are the objectives there? Is it just to show a certain level of macho and thumbing your finger in the face of convention? Is it an attempt to rally a group of people around a fascist ideology? Curious what ran through your head when once, not once but twice, a person who's a senior advisor to the president, the wealthiest man in the world, gave what looked like to me Nazi salutes.

39:30When you saw that, what ran through your head? i'm going to start in a place what i think is more interesting than my head not long after that i was i was in berlin and i was talking to uh a very courageous and consistent left-wing organizer friend we're at a bar you're having a drink and and he said i think he's right he said, you know, eventually they always do it. Like they have to do it. And I knew what he meant. He meant Musk and the Hitlergruss, you know, that salute. So I just want to take a step sort of below your question about what they're thinking and what the calculations are. I think maybe something more fundamental than that, which is that they like to do it.

40:22It makes them feel like they are who they are when they do it. My friend's point was that there's something in their the shape of their lives, which eventually leads them to give that salute. And I think we shouldn't discount that and think about it just in terms of the signal they're sending or where it goes politically or what it means to people like me. I think that's a big part of it, that performing with your body in a way which is unambiguous, which is not rejecting reason, which is calling forth a similar salute from other people. And since we know the history is also referring to right at the very heart of fascism the last time around.

41:01I think that the sheer pleasure of doing that is probably close to a complete explanation. I think the secondary thing would be the normalization of it, that you're trying to break all the taboos. And of course, when you do it, this is the 21st century part. You do it, then you deny it. You say it was just a joke. You say it never happened, whatever. It was a wave. Yeah, exactly. But what you're after, though, is you're trying to change normality, right? You're trying to turn every taboo into a joke. And the taboos around liberalism, rule of law, democracy are built on notions of human decency, protection of the private sphere, respect, truth, and so on.

41:40And so you're trying to turn those taboos into a joke. I think that's the secondary bit. So you were at Yale and you moved to Toronto. Why? Why have you moved to Canada? uh i mean there's a there's a baseball team that plays downtown um i'm i'm theoretically a french speaker and uh they speak french here at least in this in this country um i was there like there the major considerations had to do with you know family things which i'm not particularly keen to talk about so lifestyle it's a lifestyle move not ideological we don't need to read any no no i mean It hadn't, if any, no. I mean, there's this weird timing thing now where I'm kind of caught in this local conjuncture and feel a little helpless about that.

42:24But I had already moved to Toronto. I had been recruited for three years, actually more like 10. Enough said. No one needs an excuse to move to Toronto. It's a wonderful city. I moved to London and it's been great. And it's neither here nor there in terms of politics. And I think that's what you're saying. Is that accurate? Yeah, no, I'm sorry if I sound defensive, but it's like, yeah, I moved here for reasons which had to do with time of life, essentially. Um, and now that I am here, I'm going to continue to do, you know, what I, what I can. I tend to think that people like a lot, if I have anything views to say, it has to do with experiences outside the United States, but I'm going to make, you know, really sure that I also spent a lot of time inside the United States.

43:03Um, this, things have not turned out the way that I hope they would turn out, but now that they have turned out this way, you know, now I have to stay engaged. So I will. So it almost feels sort of inconsequential or somewhat trivial compared to the things we've been talking about. But these tariffs and sort of declaring war on everyone all at once. And I can tell how old I'm getting. I'm totally fascinated with World War II, and I'd like to – I've set everything against the context of World War II. And I think of Hitler's big mistake was essentially declaring war on everyone all at once, specifically declaring war on Russia when he didn't need to.

43:37Help me understand, if we can understand, these tariffs and an individual and what analogies or what historical context there is for this sort of economic multi-front declaration of war against everyone all at once. Well, before we get to that, I just want to say something much more boring, which is that whatever the motive of tariffs are, they do have an objective effect. And that objective effect we're not actually really feeling yet in the United States. the knockoff effects on supply chains are just now starting to take hold, and they will be felt more and more severely in coming weeks and months.

44:18So whatever Trump thinks he's doing, one lesson of the 1920s and 1930s, of course, is that if you wreck the economy by way of tariffs, you're setting the stage for more radical things to happen. So as far as attacking everybody all at once. My take is that they think that the way power works is by way of these kind of one-off demonstrations of like masculine barking, where you do like you, you bluster, like you take, you, you know, you, you stick out your chest and you bluster and use lots of big words and stuff. And then the notion is that the other person makes concessions and you're better off in the end.

44:57And I think they think that's how American businesses will react to tariffs because everybody will look for a carve-out. And in looking for a carve-out, going back to your earlier question, they will then be less likely to speak up against the regime. And they think that other countries will do the same thing, that other countries are by definition weaker than the U.S., and so therefore they have to immediately react. I think that's the theory. I think it's a dumb theory, of course, because you end up minimizing U.S. power because no one takes you seriously, including they don't take you seriously also when you propose a remedy, right?

45:29You're never trusted again in the same way. But it's also a dumb theory because it just overestimates the scale of US power. And this gives me an occasion to say something I wanted to say and forgot in response to your earlier question. I mentioned when you asked who does this benefit, I mentioned Russia and I mentioned oligarchs. But the big winner, the big long-term winner is obviously China. Because what we have done is we've said to the world, hey, look, China is a more reliable trade partner than we are, right? So we've bailed Russia out in the short term in Ukraine, and we've bailed China out in the long term on the scale of the world.

46:07Recognizing none of us have a crystal ball, are you comfortable making any sort of predictions as to what you think the likely scenarios are in America over the next two, three years? There's so many variables. There's so many things bouncing up against one another. It's like, if you think about different historical moments, there are moments where more things are possible than usual. So after the First World War, what I'd like to think of as the bandwidth of possibility was just much broader. Things like Lenin and things like Hitler were possible then, and they wouldn't have been possible at other times because you'd have this globalization with its hopes and then with its collapse around a major war.

46:49And now, you know, now we're in this other globalization, which is also facing its collapse. The major, you know, the war isn't as major. The Russo-Ukrainian war is a horribly great, is a horribly huge war, but it's not on the scale of the great war. But it's also facing this collapse in the person of somebody like Trump. And so there's just things are possible now that weren't possible before. I worry a great deal about an exogenous shock, like the terror attack that we were talking about earlier and what that would set off. And I think we have to kind of internalize that possibility because we have to recognize that in the scenarios we're talking about, it's almost, I mean, you can't be certain about anything historically, but it's as certain as you can be that Trump, Vance, Musk would treat such an exogenous event as a reason to try to finish off the Republic completely.

47:38Another thing I worry about is that because the Trump people overestimate the power of bluster and the power of the United States federal government in general because they don't really understand that institutions don't work just on the basis of charisma and giving orders, that they're going to get us to a situation where federal institutions are going to break down or that federal institutions of the 50 states are going to be in irreconcilable clashes. I worry about that a great deal. I think that's a scenario that has been understated, that institutions of the federal government will just stop working and that states will then begin to wonder what we're getting out of all of this and that there will be some kind of crisis within our own federal system.

48:20That's, I guess, the second scenario that I worry about. In addition to the obvious thing that we've been talking about the whole time, which is Trump, Musk, that milieu seeking to somehow get around the rule of law and the things are married to each other. You can get around the rule of law. You can change the nature the federal government, but what you can't do is then predictably know what's going to come next. And it isn't all internationally or nationally going to be in your favor. You can slam the door on democracy and you can break everything inside the house of democracy. But then when you walk out into that brave new world that you're created, it's not like the weather is always going to be beautiful and in your favor.

48:59So I apologize for jumping around, but you're one of the leading historians on Ukraine, and I'd be remiss not to ask before you go. The optimist looking at the glass half empty. Is this an opportunity that sort of Uncle Sam is not only inconsistent, but crazy and can no longer be dependent upon? And is this an opportunity for Europe to actually become a union,$19 trillion collective economy versus$2 trillion in Russia, and provide Ukraine with the support such that they can continue to push back on Russia? Or am I being naive? That's the one rational hope. And if, you know, regardless of whether there's a ceasefire or whether there's a quote-unquote peace deal.

49:38I really hate the way that the noun deal is now being attached to everything as though deal-making is the highest human achievement. But regardless of whether on paper there's some kind of accord, the threat of Russia and the possibility or the reality of Russia making war on Ukraine or other European countries is going to be very real and imminent into the indefinite future, at least until Putin loses power, which means that Europe has to respond in some way if it wishes to exist. Because the attack on Ukraine was also an attack on the broader principles of the existence of the European Union, namely that there is a post-imperial way of doing politics, that one can share sovereignty rather than violate sovereignty, that you can have boring, ritualistic, bureaucratic iterative relationships as opposed to martial military destructive relationships and so on.

50:35And the Russians are very explicit about this. The whole Russian doctrine of foreign policy is that the EU is an artificial creation which has no right to exist because in fact the only thing that matters are empires and a multipolar world and so on. So if they want to exist, they have to step up with respect to Ukraine. I would add to that that I think the EU only exists by enlarging. That has to be part of its process as well. And I realize it's complicated inside various countries and so on. But a European Union, which had Great Britain and Ukraine as members, would be an even larger, more secure, and more interestingly internally diverse economic unit than the current European Union.

51:15So we only have you for a couple more minutes. You've been very generous with your time. Just a kind of a lightning round here. What are the biggest risks we're not paying attention to? And what are you most optimistic about? I'm optimistic about American protests. I'm optimistic about people who haven't protested before who are protesting now. I'm optimistic about, or hopeful is a better word, about elected representatives who are actually talking about the way the world actually is. I'm hopeful about, I think, a set of European leaders, Macron, Starmer, Merz, in Poland, Donald Tusk, that's, I mean, I don't agree with all of them about everything, of course, but I think as a set of European leaders, that's a pretty good quartet and a better one than one has had for quite a long time, at least on the kinds of issues that we've been talking about, European security and durability.

52:10I'm hopeful about, I'm hopeful because of the kinds of categorical or conceptual conversations that we've been having because I really believe that you can't organize and resist without conceptual work. And it's hopeful to me that the people who I know who are organizers are getting maybe closer to the people who I know who are conceptualizers and that the organizers are conceptualizing and some of the conceptualizing and organizing. That all gives me some hope. You're obviously hugely successful. You have what appears to be just a great job and have carved out a really nice piece of the world for yourself.

52:46What advice would you give to your 25-year-old self and more generally advice to young men who want to someday be Timothy Snyder and have a really cool job? I mean, that's a funny question because the only, I mean, the only, like I did gig work for six years after I got my doctorate. I stayed on the market the entire time and I only got a job at Yale basically because of luck. I mean, I may have had some qualifications for it, but the job was only available because of luck. And so if I find it hard to like say, oh, I have some kind of like path that other people can follow in general, you know, I, I learned to do a bunch of resilience, perseverance.

53:27It sounds like you're going in there. Maybe I think, I mean, I think having different things that you're pretty good at and not just one thing that you're very good at. If you're going to be an academic, be at, be international in some way because that allows you to, I mean, I couldn't have been able to do the things I did even before I had a job without being international in some way. And I think being willing, like if you're going to be an academic, think always about what else you could do besides having a tenure track job in universities. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I always had female bosses.

54:00I think that's, you know, that's, I'm not sure if that's a piece of advice, but it's been kind of helpful along the way. I mean, getting along with different sort of folks. But yeah, advice, I don't know, man. I feel like I've been really lucky. And times were tough when I was on the job market, and they're a lot tougher now for all kinds of different reasons. I don't think people should get PhDs unless they really, really love what they're doing. Because you have to take a lot of time to do it. And then once you do it, you have to love what you're doing enough to try to be aware that you might have to do it somewhere else besides the academy.

54:40So anyway, you caught me off guard with that one. That's the best I could do. Timothy Snyder is a leading historian of authoritarianism in Ukraine and Eastern Europe. He's the author of various books, including On Freedom, On Tyranny, The Road to Unfreedom, and Bloodlands. After over two decades at Yale, he joined the University of Toronto's Monk School of Global Affairs. He joins us from the great city of Toronto. I could do this for three hours really appreciate your time and an open invitation although I'm inviting myself I want to come to Toronto I want to do a mini I Love Canada tour and I would love to interview you on stage somewhere I think your work has never been more relevant I really appreciate your time Professor I'd love to see you in person so when you're in Canada you just drop a line and we'll do that 100 % thanks again

55:40Algebra of Happiness, we just had Mother's Day. I'm a six-year-old man who hasn't gotten over the death of his mother. I miss her a great deal. I can't talk about it without getting emotional. It was me and my mom against the world. My dad left and my mom raised me on her own on a secretary salary. It's not a sob story. We actually had a nice life because back then, I think America kind of loved unremarkable people. We used to take vacations. We lived in a decent place. You know, I lived, actually, we had the worst house in a nice neighborhood. And it was pretty obvious to me early on that we didn't have as much money, but that was fine.

56:17I actually think that one of the reasons I have a lot of money now is because I had less money than my friends back then. But look, missing your mom, you know, it's something that I've leaned into, and I hope that my boys miss me as much as I miss my mom. And something I'm, one of the things I'm really proud of, I was, I'm a good dad. I'd like to think, you know, I'm very proud of professional success. I don't know, also a lot of things I'm not proud of, but something I did really well, I spent a lot of time with my mom the last 10 years of her life. But I started finally registering some success in my 30s, and I used to share a lot of that success with my mom, not only giving her stuff or trying to buy nice things for her or make sure she was comfortable, but I used to call my mom after every success.

57:06I did well on a test in graduate school or I was interested in a woman and got her number, went out, had a nice date, or I did well at work or something good happened to me. And I used to just call my mom that moment and tell her that it had happened. And, you know, moms love like your mom. And I guess to a certain extent, your dad are the only people who ever you'll ever meet who want you to be more successful than them. And they just get so much reward out of nice things happening. And I didn't figure that out till I was a little bit older, but I would absolutely make sure that my mom could share in my success.

57:45I was really good at spending a lot of time with my mom and just finding reasons to call her. I spoke to my mom almost every day. And it's something I look back on and I just treasure because up until that point in my life, I just wasn't a very kind person. I didn't share a lot with a lot of people. I didn't go out of my way to make people feel good. I didn't donate money. I wasn't concerned with the world. I basically saw most people as a kind of a vehicle for a transaction such that I could be more awesome and more wealthy. I wasn't a mean person, But I think kindness is a practice and the more you practice it the easier it comes to you and it starts becoming second nature And I started with my mom.

58:28I was kind and loving and spent a ton of time with her saw a long-winded way of saying Uh The gap between thinking about your mom or something good happening to you and reaching out to your mom And telling her about it just eliminate that gap your mom is never too busy to hear from you and she might say I need to call you back but what does your mom want to tell her friends? What is the biggest source of pride? Is it that you're a doctor or that you've married someone nice or that you have great grandkids? That's all great. But more than anything, what moms want to brag about to their friends is that you choose them, that you call them all the time, that anytime something happens to you, you reach out to them.

59:11And I think it's especially important for sons because we're not like best friends with our mothers. It's not like that I love you, I hate you kind of dynamic sometimes that mothers and daughters have with each other's best friends. You're just their son. And that is, you know, the nicest thing I've ever done for anybody was every day giving a lot of me to my mom.

59:43Anyway, try and make every day a little bit of Mother's Day.

59:59This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez. Our intern is Dan Chalon. Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prop G Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

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