Media Tumult, Masculinity, Failure, and Fatherhood — with Jake Tapper

24:35I remember thinking with all three of these films, I don't know if they get made today. None of them get made today. And they're all slow compared to what we're used to in terms of pacing. No director would let any of those movies out of the editing bay as they are. So I would love to just get your gut impression or your just responses when I'm going to mention a couple of companies here. If you were in charge of CNN, what would you do? What would you like to see the firm? It's facing huge headwinds, viewership down, I think, 60 percent. Granted, that's happening across all of cable. I remember, I think I saw MSNBC bragging that they were only down 12 percent.

25:08What are your thoughts on, you know, you obviously have a lot of currency there. You're front of the camera, not on the business side. What do you think CNN and cable news outlets need to do to stay relevant? We have amazing resources that very few, if any, other news organizations have, certainly more so than MSNBC or Fox, but also to a large degree, more so than the networks. And that is we have resources all over the globe. We do highlight that on cable all the time, but we should, I think, be highlighting that even more in the social media space. You know, that's where people under 20 get all of their information now.

25:48and people under 30 too in many cases. And I think we just, we need to be there in the social media space and on the streaming space, which we will be playing more of a role in the Mac streaming space. That's been reported anyway. And you've been covering the writer's strike and now the SAG after strike. What are your thoughts on the strike and the relationship between the studios and talent and the AI? Any thoughts or predictions on how this is going to play out? I am sympathetic with their requests and the thought, you know, the fact that like 95 % of the actors that we're talking about in the union make, you know,$26 ,000 a year or less, you know, just because the whole streaming model changes everything in terms of there are no reruns because everything is up there forever.

26:36And therefore they pay you once and they don't pay you again. They hide all the data. They hide all the information about how much people are watching it. It just seems like it's an unsustainable model. But again, I don't know. I mean, I'll just put it out. My sense is when I hear that 90 % of actors make less than$26 ,000, doesn't that mean they should just be doing something else? I mean, isn't this just the economics of this industry can't support this labor pool? And I mean, it strikes me that there just isn't the money there, distinct to the income inequality around the executives, that the entire industry is struggling.

27:11The unions couldn't have struck at a worse time just in terms of their leverage and the overall economics in the industry. Isn't the industry just incredibly strained? The model that these corporations have created seems unsustainable, and that's not because of the writers or most of the actors. It's because of these huge ticket items. If from 1990 to 2023, the highest paid employee versus the lowest paid employee, if that gap is like 20 to 1, and then now it's 2 ,000 to 1, is that the economics that has changed or the compensation packages that are not based in actual data, but just based on what people can get their companies to pay them?

28:02Yeah, you're exactly right. I think the data is, if you look at the average salary of a CEO relative to the average worker and the companies they had, it's gone from 35x to 350 times x? I mean, at a certain point, I don't know if you need to make 350x as opposed to 35x. It just seems that those are some of the numbers that should be questioned. And I don't, I mean, again, I've heard some pushback on some of the writers' demands, like in terms like Taylor Sheridan, who does a lot of these great movies and TV shows, like Hell or High Water is one of my favorite films and he does Yellowstone and everything.

28:39And, you know, he was pushing back on the idea of why should he have a minimum room number? Like, why does he have to, if he's the only one writing a script, why does he need to have 35 people on staff writing? You know, I can certainly understand that argument, but by the same token, there is also a degree to which COVID and the way that these streamers have been operating have gotten rid of writer's rooms altogether. You know, you hire eight writers for 10 weeks, they outline or write 10 scripts, hand them in, and then that's it. And they're not involved in anything else, even if rewriting is going on.

29:16And people have just been playing with the models so as to save money. And for what? Where is that money going? Before the writer's strike, I was talking to a major EP and a major streamer about bringing my second book, The Devil May Dance, making it a streaming TV show with Christian Slater as Charlie Martyr. The Devil May Dance is the one that takes place in the Rat Pack years. And so it is a world that I am, you know, dipping a toe in and have been trying to dip a toe in for a little while. Originally, you know, I was talking to the HBO Max folks and then everybody that was really into the project got fired.

29:56You're going to be shocked As successful, well, it might be different for Jake Tapper, but I've had every one of my books optioned for a TV or a movie, and nothing's ever happened. I still can't figure out how people in L.A. make a living. I've never been able to get anything done. Let's shift to something you're really at kind of the helm of the bobsled on, and that's the 2024 race. What so far do you notice that's different about this election cycle, the characters, the way the nation has shifted, the issues? What is, in your view, different this time versus where we were at the similar moment, I guess, in 2019?

30:34It is fascinating to me that red lights are blinking for both major leading candidates right now, for Joe Biden and for Donald Trump. The red lights blinking for Joe Biden are that there is a lack of enthusiasm for him among the Democratic electorate and that there are serious concerns about his sharpness, shall we say, at age 80. Those, to me, are questions without an actual answer because there is not anybody natural to be there and replace him waiting in the wings. The blinking red lights for Donald Trump are, if you talk to Republicans off the record, even some of his supporters, it's very unlikely he can beat Joe Biden.

31:22I mean, like just the race has happened before. He has not done anything since losing in November 2020. He has not done anything to win over any of those people who once voted for him or once just didn't even vote. And in fact, you could make the argument, and I think it's pretty easy to, to say, in fact, the contrary, he's done even more to turn off even more people given January 6. And you look at the polling and my favorite group of voters in polling are the double haters, people who hate both candidates. Donald Trump in 2016 won the double haters. I think it was like three to two over Hillary Clinton.

32:00But Joe Biden far and away wins the double haters by like 50 percentage points. I mean, it's just like unless there's some major change, he can't win this race. And I mean, look, anything could happen. And certainly people said that in 2016 and he ended up winning and all that. But based on today's facts, that seems to be the case. And yet, and yet, Republican voters and many Republican officeholders, including many who decried him, are still with him and supporting him strongly. And it just it's that's very surprising to me because electability is usually a very important issue. It's the only reason Joe Biden won in 2020.

32:40There was all of a sudden this, you know, circle the wagons situation because the Democrats were terrified Bernie Sanders would be the nominee and electability became the only thing they cared about. And Jonah Goldberg has written on this far more eloquently than I. But there is this purity test where it we're supporting Donald Trump, even if you know he's going to lose, becomes more important than winning. If you look at kind of 16 months out, what the narrative, how the narrative was supposed to play out, whether it was Jeb Bush or Herman Cain, I think, was the leader at one point in the Republican in Republican polling.

33:15Right now, the conventional wisdom is that it's Trump and it's Biden and Biden cleans his clock because the four or five states that matter, my understanding is Biden. To your point, it's just way up that Biden is just less offensive to, as you describe the double haters. but also recognizing that conventional wisdom usually doesn't present itself in the next 16 minutes. So let's let's posit what might happen or just speculate, say that for whatever reason, Biden decided for a health scare or whatever reason, decided to drop out or was not decided I'm not going to pursue. Who do you think would be the Democratic nominee if it wasn't Biden?

33:49Oh, boy. You mean if there was like an open race? God forbid. But if something were to happen to Joe Biden. I mean, I think there would be a big effort to rally around Vice President Harris and for lots of reasons, including that she's next in line, but also because black women are the base of the Democratic Party and dumping her for someone else could really be politically unwise in terms of suppressing Democratic base voters. It's interesting you say that because my sense is there's other than on paper, it makes all the sense in the world, but there isn't that enthusiasm for her candidacy. But you think that she would be a viable candidate?

34:28Do I think she'd be a viable candidate? Yes. Sure. But I think there's a lot. I mean, I think if it were an open race, it would be very competitive. And there's some very skilled Democratic politicians waiting in the wings, including, just to name a few, Mitch Landrieu and Gavin Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer and Jared Jared Polis, Josh Shapiro in Pennsylvania, even though he was just elected. It feels like a deep bench, doesn't it? It's a pretty deep bench. I mean, the Republicans have a deep bench, too. But, you know, the difference is most of them are running. Right. Most of them are running against against Trump, Nikki Haley and Tim Scott and Ron DeSantis and the rest.

35:12But, yeah, no, I think it's a pretty deep bench, as opposed to one of the complaints made about both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama is that during their eight years as president, they didn't nurture young talent. So there wasn't much of a bench, for instance, when, you know, I mean, it wasn't a huge, obviously, Hillary Clinton was a candidate that a lot of people rallied around, but there wasn't a huge race in 2016. What was it, Hillary Clinton? I can't even remember. And let's talk about the Republican side. You know, DeSantis feels like he's losing steam, but no one else seems to be gaining steam.

35:45Do you see any dynamics or do you see anything emerging on the Republican side? I don't. I'm supposed to interview DeSantis Tuesday. That will be definitely something I talk to him about. I do think that the race is more open than it appears on its face. I think a lot of Trump's support right now is soft. The fact that DeSantis was up in the polls and then went down a little shows that some of that support is is gettable or re-gettable. And also, as you know, it's not the national polls. It's the state by state polls. And I believe in Iowa, if you look at the general trend, Trump's in the 30s and DeSantis is about in the 20s.

36:26That's that's you know, that's still pretty close. That's still striking distance for July. And so I think, honestly, anything could happen. I mean, what I think is if there is an upset in Iowa or a strong second place showing for a candidate, then the race, you know, it goes to New Hampshire. Governor Sununu has made it pretty clear he's not a fan of Trump. He could endorse, let's say it's DeSantis or Nikki Haley, who comes in a strong second or whatever in Iowa. And who knows what could happen. We'll be right back.

37:11Sometimes, the difference between success and failure comes down to one chance encounter, or following a counterintuitive instinct, or ignoring conventional wisdom to make a bold decision. Like when the founders at Palo Alto Networks wanted to redefine cybersecurity for the modern age. Everybody thought we were crazy. Nobody would use the cloud for cybersecurity. Or when mobile gaming giant Supercell could only rewrite the rules of the industry after failure in the company's formative stages. Many of the best things we've learned have actually come through failures. These are all examples of crucible moments, turning points in a company's journey that made them what they are today.

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38:51So I want to get to some of the more personal stuff. Jeff, what is left for you? What box is left for you professionally? You've just said you don't want to. I always jokingly said I would like every CNN anchor to run for president and be the cabinet. What box is left for you to check when you think in 10 years, these are the professional achievements I want to have registered? Is it just more of the same? Is there something new you want to do? I'm really happy professionally. I really like my life. I really like my job. I like that I get to write fiction. I like that I get to write nonfiction.

39:23The boxes I want to check are not, they're just different media of the same type of thing I'm doing. I have one screenplay idea. I have a fourth novel in the series. I have two nonfiction projects. I would like, because I used to, I was an art minor in college and I used to be a cartoonist, not good enough to support myself, but enough to have people send me money to do it. But, uh, I would not mind doing a graphic novel. I give myself 20 years to do that 20 years. So if, if we're still having this conversation and I'm 74, then I have failed. But, um, beyond that, like I'm really quite a content creature and I'm old enough to know that journalists don't, somebody asked me one time, like, what's my legacy?

40:12And I said, journalists don't have legacies. We don't get legacies. One of us a decade gets remembered, if at all, if at all. Anyway, my point is just, I'm pretty, I'm pretty happy. One thing I did want to bring up with you, because I know you care about the, um, the father son issue is that, um, it's a, it's a very important issue to me personally. And it's also very, it's an important issue in this new novel. All the demons are here. One of the subtexts is Charlie, who is the father and the hero of the first two books, along with his wife, Margaret, and his estrangement from his son, Ike, and their inability to communicate, and the fact that Ike follows Charlie by becoming a Marine, Charlie was in the army, and they both kind of have drinking problems.

41:02Those are the only two ways in which he obviously follows his dad kind of into these masculine, well, alcoholism is a masculine toxicity. I wouldn't say joining the military is, but it's kind of like a traditional masculine trope. But anyway, it's just something that I know you care a lot about and ruminate a lot about and write a lot about. And I just wanted you to know that it's something that I share your focus on it. And it's important in my nonfiction life, my actual life and my life as a dad and as a son, but also it's an important subtext of the book. Well, let's talk about that. How do you approach, there's a lot of conversation, and I feel like it's gotten more productive just recently, around trying to envision or shape a more productive vision of masculinity.

41:50How, in your interactions with your father, and then as it relates to your interactions with your son, how do you think about modern masculinity? What behaviors do you encourage your son to embrace that he may be more prone to biologically or societally? How do you think about masculinity in the context of raising a son? Well, my dad was born in 1940, and I love him dearly. He's 83 years old, but I don't think of him as a paragon of modern masculinity. He was born in 1940. He is old school in many, many ways. So when I think about modern masculinity, which is what you're talking about, I think of my son, Jack.

42:27and I think about, I know you've written about this, but some of the pursuits that I encourage him to follow are athleticism, not for the competitive value of it, but for the endorphins and the, you know, especially when you're 13 and testosterone is running through your body like lava off of a volcano and just burning that energy in a positive way. and then also uh his friendships are something that he's he's very invested in and he has like lots of over in the summer he has lots of friends come over during the day and to me those are like the two of the most positive things i see him doing as a as a boy i i do worry about him sometimes because we lost our dog with whom he was very close about a week or so ago.

43:25And I haven't seen him cry over it yet. And I've said to him, Jack, you know, it's okay. I've already wept twice about it. But he said, well, I'm turning my sorrow into anger and then my anger, I'm burning off at the gym. And I said, it's a nice theory, but the tears are still in you. They're going to come out at At some point, you know, it's watching the first shell go up after our dog died. Part of being a man that it's unavoidable, I guess, in some parts, because he's certainly not discouraged from crying in our house. But at some point, it just happens, I think. A lot of the research shows that boys come off the tracks when they no longer have a male role model.

44:05So your boy is blessed with having a male role model. Have you thought about your own behaviors and trying to be a good role model? or is it more organic or are there certain behaviors you're trying to cement and demonstrate in front of him? I definitely think about it all the time, not just for him, but for my daughter. I think about the importance to me of being demonstrative with my love for my wife in front of them. I think that's important to, I didn't grow up with that because my parents divorced when I was like seven or eight. So I didn't grow up with that. But I think that's a really healthy thing.

44:42it becomes very easy to me to grab my wife and give her a kiss. Even if the kids go, ew. No, I think about it all the time. I think about it all the time about how I am modeling behaviors that he will follow. I mean, we both model for both kids, but it's naive to think that he isn't looking more at me and she isn't looking more at her. I just think that happens. One of the things I try to tell them over and over is how much failure I've experienced. Because I don't want them just to see me as this very successful anchor guy that their friends know because I'm on TV or whatever. I want them to know, like, how much pain and failure I've gone through professionally.

45:25If you're advising a young father 10 years behind you in terms of raising a boy and a girl, what surprises or what learnings, what advice would you have for young fathers? love them, love them, love them, tell them you love them, hug them, embrace them, put them to bed. Don't blink, as they say, because it goes by real quick. One of the observations I had that I thought would, if somebody had told me this before the kids were born, I probably would have thought that they were anachronistic, but just how different Alice and Jack were as babies and then as toddlers in a way that just had nothing to do with us.

46:07Like, all of a sudden, Jack just was, like, drawn to trucks. He just was. It's incredible, isn't it? Boys and cars and girls and dolls. Yeah, and Alice was just drawn to dolls. And they just were. It's one of the great joys of my life, and I feel bad for those who don't get to experience it. I know they might have a more content life with fewer gray hairs, but in some ways content, but it's just the defining part of who I am. And what advice or observations do you have around having a productive marriage and being a good partner to your wife? Date night is an incredibly important thing. A night when you and your wife go away from the kids and just connect.

46:49And it really needs to be at least once a week. I think that that, It sounds silly and trivial, but it is vital. I would say listening and not necessarily responding. I think one of the great lessons for me as a husband has been in how much I am helpful if I'm just listening. And not necessarily offering advice as to how to fix the problem or what I would do in such a situation or what insights I particularly have. But like, it's really a lot of the time I'm just wanted to listen. And this will be our last question. You referenced earlier that you want to make sure your kids know about your failures, your low points.

47:32I think most people who know you from the TV screen and CNN imagine a life that's kind of been up and to the right. Are you comfortable? That's true. I mean, are you comfortable? It's so not true. I mean, it's so not what happened, though, but yes. But that's the old adage. People think success is up and to the right. What success is, it's just a violent series of dips and peaks. And hopefully over time you figure it out. But are you comfortable sharing a low moment where you felt really vulnerable and who and what got you out of it? Yeah, I mean, there are so many. There are so many. I could literally talk for an hour about it.

48:09But I mean, first of all, the lowest moment I remember having was after college. Everybody went to law school or to business school or to start this internship or that. And I didn't I really didn't really know what I wanted to do. I went to I applied to film school just because I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I was I got into University of Southern California. Great film school, but like I was not ready for it. And I found the town very isolating at the time. And I was paying for it out of my own pocket. And I didn't even know that that's what I wanted to do for a living. And I felt completely directionless and very alone.

48:47And I remember a period in my life in that dorm I was in at the corner of Adams and Hoover. And I remember waking up and wishing I hadn't woken up, which is not to say that I wished I was dead. I did not. But I just didn't like being awake because I did not enjoy my life at that point. and that was the lowest moment of my life and I just ultimately said, okay, well, this is not working. So when the semester was over, I packed up and went back to Philadelphia where I was from and just rebooted and started again and that wasn't easy to do because it was acknowledging that I had done this thing and it was a failure that this dream I had of being a film producer or writer or whatever, like I was going to give up on it Even though it wasn't really a dream, it was just kind of like what I thought maybe I wanted to try just because I had nothing else to think about.

49:43No other direction. But that was tough. That was tough. But that's just one of thousands of failures and disappointments and rejections. And, yeah, it isn't up to the right. It's failure after failure after failure. You know, so if I saw us at the gym this morning and because I'm old, I have a trainer and because he makes me exercise. Otherwise, I would just go there and walk on the Stairmaster for half an hour all day. And he made he was making me do a dips until failure. Right. Until my arms gave out. And I was just thinking about how interesting it was that he was using the term failure. Do it until failure.

50:24And what that is, is just like giving it everything you have until you have nothing left to give. And that's what failure meant in that context. And I just thought that that was interesting because that's not what failure means in any other context. Failure in this context is really good. You've worked so hard until your arms couldn't do it anymore. Sometimes that's what actual failure is in life. Like you try something and it doesn't work. And then you do something else. And that's not necessarily bad. Jake Tapper anchors the lead on CNN and serves as the network's chief Washington correspondent.

50:59He also hosted CNN's Sunday morning show, State of the Union, since June of 2015. In addition to his reporting, Jake has also authored several books, including his latest novel, All the Demons Are Here. He joins us from his office in Washington, D.C. Jake, I really enjoyed this conversation. I think you're a wonderful role model for journalists and for young men and appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

51:29algebra of happiness waking up and not being happy to be awake this is important for young people almost everybody has a moment where they wake up and they're like i'm just not that psyched to be awake right now my life is really hard it's not panning out the way i'd hoped i've let myself down i've let others down you get so hard on yourself so fast and the competitive nature of our economy, the harshness of relationships or failed relationships. That is part of the journey. I remember being at Morgan Stanley and thinking I'd hit the lottery and then I decided not to return. I decided my tears were over and I got out, moved back in with my mom and I literally had nothing going on.

52:07And I woke up and I'm like, I'm 24. I had a job at Morgan Stanley and fixed income and now I'm living at a home and I have no idea what I'm going to do with my life. This kind of sucks. No girlfriend, not a lot of money or no money, no real idea what I wanted to do. And it was upsetting. And then again, and I mean, it's just happened to me so many times. So 1999, I'm going to be rich. I'm a baller. I've started this e-commerce company. Boom. I'm kicked off the board, get into war with my venture capitalists, spent all my money on a proxy fight, my moving with my mom who's struggling with cancer.

52:39She dies. The dot com or dot bomb hits. I'm broke. The only person I know that's ever cared about me is dead. And I have nothing, I mean, almost nothing in my life. But I'm now, you know, 34 and just fucking nowhere. And all this hope, all this opportunity got really close and ended up basically without any relationships and with no economic security and having to start over. And here's the key. Forgive yourself. Recognize that everyone has moments where things are just hard. and to recognize a lot of your success isn't your fault, but a lot of your failures aren't your fault. And the key is mourning.

53:20It's okay to be a little depressed for a little while and then to get back up, dust off your pants and step up back to the plate and start again and one foot in front of the other. Whatever you need to do, whether it's spirituality, meditating, being with people that make you feel good about yourself, working out, whatever it is that gives you the opportunity to stand in front of the mirror and say, I could make someone really happy. I could make someone really happy. And I'm going to approach someone at a bar in line and coffee or accept an invitation to a dinner party. And if I find someone interesting, maybe suggest be aggressive about trying to set up a coffee or something.

54:01You could make someone very happy. Two, you are the solution to a firm's problems. There's a firm out there that can absolutely leverage your strengths and you could help that firm grow shareholder value. And three, being born in America, probably having some of the skills you have. There is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't expect, if you're action-oriented, a good person, recognized one of the keys to success is resilience and perseverance, realize that you are going to have a rewarding life. It is going to be full of joy and it's also going to be full of tragedy. And part of that tragedy part of that tragedy is the fact you have a lot of expectations for yourself The economy goes in cycles people do get sick and die But you will feel better things will get better If you wake up one day and you think i'm not that psyched to be awake that is part of the journey Keep on keeping on This episode was produced by caroline shagrin jennifer sanchez is our associate producer and drew burrows is our technical director Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.

55:11We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice. It was read by George Hahn and on Monday with our weekly market show. What do walking 10 ,000 steps every day, eating five servings of fruits and veggies, and getting eight hours of sleep have in common? They're all healthy choices. But do all healthier choices really pay off? With prescription plans from CVS Caremark, they do. Their plan designs give your members more choice, which gives your members more ways to get on, stay on, and manage their meds. And that helps your business control your costs, because healthier members are better for business.

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