Prof G Markets: Ask Us Anything — Forgiveness, The Manosphere, Parasocial Relationships & More

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27:27We're back with Prof G Markets. Here's one for both of you. Do you have tips on improving storytelling, taking classes, joining groups, anything? Ed, we'll start with you. The best lesson on storytelling, in my view, came from the creators of South Park. Their names are Trey Parker and Matt Stone. and they have a rule when they're sort of storyboarding each episode and they're sort of outlining the beats of the episode and it applies to all storytelling and that is the words and then if those words appear between your beats then you've screwed up like the idea of having a story where it's like this happened and then this happened and then this happened, and then this happened.

28:18That's not a story. That's just a sequence of things happening. So what you have to do and what they do is they replace and then with one of these two words, either therefore or but. So the difference then is, you know, you've got a story. This happened, therefore this happened, but this happened therefore this happened and that's a story and i think that's a really useful rule in terms of sort of what i was saying before about trying to arrive to a point and i think it applies to business news as well like the idea of me coming on this podcast and being like you know sales were down and then margins were up and then profits were up that's that I don't register anything from that.

29:10But sales were down, but margins were up. Therefore, profits were up. That's different. That's telling a story right there. And so I think if you're trying to understand how can I convey my storytelling better, get rid of all the ands and get rid of all the thens and start using more buts and therefore. Scott, any other storytelling tips? Some of it is just genetic. It's like any other talent. I've always thought, we were talking about my dad. My dad could captivate a room and a really good twist of phrase. And I think I got some of that from him. So I was blessed with some, I don't know, oratory skills.

29:47I've always been able to speak fairly well. Speak fairly well. Anyways, but where it starts for me, and maybe it's different for other people, is that I think to be a great storyteller, it's really important or a good basis to be able to write well. The hardest thing I do is writing. And right now it's Thursday and I got to get No Mercy, No Malice out tomorrow. It's the hardest thing I do is writing books and No Mercy, because the written word to do it well requires excellence. You know, we can fuck up or have fragments or not think through and just the kind of the banter and get through it. Ed used to work on No Mercy, No Mouse, and you got out of that as quickly as you could, because it's hard.

30:23It's not because it's hard. So if you can write well, I think that's the base for storytelling. So I committed to becoming a decent writer at not a young age. And then I would say the rest is or a couple other key components. Pick the medium you want to be a great storyteller in. Do you want to be a great writer, great on Instagram, great visually, great with PowerPoint? There's a lot of different mediums. And then put a metric on it and say, I want to be in the top 1%. For me, I want to be a decathlete. I want to be in the top 1 % of speaking, of writing books, of writing newsletters, of podcasting.

30:59And I think if I can do that, I'll be a decathlete in the world of storytelling. And I put specific metrics on it in terms of dollar volume or what I charge for speaking. And also, I have an unfair advantage, and that is for 22 years, I stood in front of 60 to 300 people twice a week or four times a week for an hour and a half telling them a story and trying to engage them. And they were paying me slash NYU a lot of money to listen to this story. And so they came with real expectations, and that was just a tremendous training. So in this pitch to Netflix that we did for this original scripted series we're working on, Rosamund Pike, who's going to play the lead, read a scene.

31:43And she's just so captivating, her voice, the way she puts herself in the character. I thought, God, that's just such a gift. And you were just, I remember seeing the folks at Netflix, the creative execs on the line, I could just tell them like, oh, we've sold it. They're going to buy it. They'll pay anything for this thing because she just was the character and she was just so captivating. We're just so drawn to her. And I thought, how much of that is learned? How much of it is genetic? But anyways, I'm blessed in that I get tons of practice over the last two plus decades. Also as a consultant, I got a ton of experience in front of boards and CEOs trying to tell a story and then convince them to pay me a half a million dollars for another story in three months.

32:24Just to add on to that though, Scott. Like, I feel like what you do that is different from most professors and also was true in your consulting career is I feel like everything that you say, you treat as though it is entertainment. Like I've had a lot of professors when I was at Princeton who they don't think of it as a show and they don't think of it as a story. It's like, you know, here's a series of facts and here's what you need to know. And you got to read the textbook and we're going to have a quiz on it and that's sort of how it goes but i feel like and i don't know if this is intentional or just natural from your end but i also think of that story you told about when you were at l2 and you were presenting to some brand and first up was mckinsey and next up was l2 and you've the mckinsey presentation ended and you're like wow that was the most boring thing i've ever seen in my life and that's something that i have learned from you in my work is that I try to think in all of my work, and I think it's underrated in all aspects of life, like, is this actually interesting and entertaining?

33:32Like, why would I put this giant research report together if it's just going to bore you out of your mind? Who wants to read that? And I feel like you take that to another level. So follow-up question for me, do you agree with that? And is that intentional? Look, Alex Karp, Donald Trump, Maswat Demodaran, the best professor, the most highly rated professor, who's one best professor of 190 of us at NYU for seven out of the last eight years, they're all entertainers. And that is, they take humor, they take storytelling, and they use it to soften the beat such that the point they're trying to get across, Yes.

34:11Everyone has screens. Everyone's skeptical. People don't trust each other. People get bored easily. They get distracted. So you need to soften the beach. And the way you soften the beach is you keep them engaged through entertainment. Now, some people are just so brilliant. Yuval Harari, his stuff is just so factual, but even then it's sort of a story. He's a bit of a, yeah, entertainment. Think about the people who break through in the news. They just have a way of writing and they have metaphors and analogies and turns of phrase that just kind of surprise and delight you. I've always used humor.

34:45I wasn't, it goes back to when I was very young. I was not attractive. I got, I was one of those kids that went through this crazy growth spurt. So I was sort of, by the time I was 13, 5 '10", 120 pounds and I had bad acne and I was very insecure. And my only means of establishing social capital was humor. And I'm going to date myself, but the only award I've ever received is I was voted most comical in Steve Martin in my school poll. That's a good award. But I've always used humor and comedy as a means of trying to establish relationships and keep my students engaged and my clients sort of, oh, that guy's kind of interesting.

35:25I find that some of the greatest social commentators of our time soften the beach with humor. But they don't teach that in school. I guess that's what I find so interesting. That's sort of been one of my big takeaways, probably because we're entertaining because we're on a podcast. But schools should teach that. You should learn that in college. if you're going to walk into a job interview, yeah, you want to know all of your facts and you want to make sure you get everything right. But the most important thing is that you offer the interviewer a good time. And the way you can do that is by being entertaining.

35:59Say things that sort of capture their imagination, say things that aren't boring. I feel like that's such an underrated asset and we should be taught it more in schools. So I'm giving you your credit for teaching me that. The only pushback I would offer is that at the end of the day, you want to be yourself. And some people just aren't funny. And when they try to be funny and they're not, it just falls flat. I think of myself as funny and provocative, and sometimes my shit falls flat. I just go too far and it just... No, it always lands. Cringe, right? But there are some professors and some communicators that are just so chock full of facts and so well rehearsed and so competent.

36:39you know you guys are too young to remember the show welcome back cotter but he was trying to help this fellow teacher and he was trying to convince her that she needs to be funny and she just couldn't do it that was just wasn't her so i would say early on you just want to figure out what is my gift around storytelling what are my mediums and then lean into those advantages i think the question that people should be asking in all of their work is is this something that i would want to consume so i'm not saying like you have to be funny or you have to be you know really emotionally thoughtful, do whatever you want to do.

37:10But ultimately, the answer to, is this something that I would consume? Is this a story I would want to hear? Is this a report I would want to read? The answer must be yes. Another one for both of you. What should be your goal in your late 20s? I feel lost. I work in consulting, but I find it very unfulfilling. I feel like it's time to make a drastic change, but I don't know what. I don't know if I'm built for a conventional career, but I've been on a conventional path. my whole life, so it's all I know. Ed, we'll go to you first. Well, first off, I relate to that question. I felt that way during college.

37:46So I feel you. I can offer what I did to get out of that because I no longer feel that way. I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and this really worked for me, which is I just wrote up a list of people who I admire and whose lives I wanted to emulate in some way. And I think I've said this before, but Scott was on that list. And so what I would recommend is make that list of people. And I would say, do it within reason. Like, don't choose like Lionel Messi, like people whose lives you could actually live. Impressive, but not that impressive. Yeah, exactly. And go see if you can try to work for them.

38:27That's what I did. See if you can figure out a way to get connected to them, do it, again, in a reasonable way. Don't be aggressive or obnoxious, but see if you can figure out a way to go work for those people. And if you can't do that, I think the thing that you want to do is look at the list and think about what traits all of those people have in common. Like, I think that it's just, it's very hard, this question, what do I want to do? We all ask. It's very hard to just visualize what you want. and it's so much easier when we have examples of people that we can sort of go off of like it's the same as like you know trying to draw a picture from scratch like it's very hard to do but if you have like the object in front of you we have like a stencil you can sort of work your way into that and so for me that was scott like i don't i'm not trying to be scott but there are parts about Scott and what he's done that I really like, that I just think are great.

39:27And having that there and being able to sort of use it as like a tracing paper, you know, I'll change this thing here and I'll emulate this thing here. I just think that that's a really useful way to do it. So make a list of people and start there. Scott? The first thing I would want to say to this young man is to forgive yourself. And that is, If you're in your mid to late 20s and not entirely sure what you're going to do professionally or with the rest of your life, that's kind of exactly where you should be. And some people do grow up with a vision and they execute against that vision. Most successful people have not.

40:00When I was nine years old, I thought I was going to be a baseball player. I was the pitcher for the California State Junior League for, you know, nine-year-olds. And then I found out I wasn't going to be an athlete. And then when I was 17 and a freshman at UCLA, I decided I was going to be a pediatrician, and chemistry disavowed me of that notion. And then when I was 22, I thought I was going to be an investment banker because I landed a job at Morgan Stanley, which everybody wanted and I got. And then I found out I hated it, and I wasn't very good at it. And then when I was in business school, I thought that I might be, you know, go to work for a healthcare consultancy.

40:36and I turned down the offer and decided I wanted to be an entrepreneur and I started a strategy firm, which kind of didn't make any sense. And then I decided I really wanted to teach. You know, at the age of 40, I kind of didn't know what I wanted to do. I was teaching, but I wasn't making enough money. I thought I was going to be rich because of Red Envelope and that didn't work out. So I kind of woke up and I'm like, I'm teaching, making not nearly enough money to live in Manhattan and to kind of reinvent myself in my early forties. But don't be too hot on yourself because the majority of people who tell you they know exactly what they want are lying to you and themselves.

41:08If you're in business school, it means you don't know what you want to do. Otherwise, you'd be doing it. The first essay is a lie. What do you want to do? And we all pretend. I said I wanted to start an information system software company. I didn't know what information systems is. If you're smart and know what you want to do, you don't need business school. Business school is for the elite and the aimless. And the majority of us through our 20s are aimless. And that's okay. You want to be workshopping. You want to be talking to people, trying new things. But along the way, you're investing in relationships.

41:38You're trying to save money. You're trying to join platforms that will increase your credibility and your currency in the marketplace and always be checking in with people who can give you a fairly sober view of your professional prospects and what to do. I hear, this is boasting, but it's true. I hear from some of the most impressive people in the world that are like partners making millions of dollars to private equity. And they're like, what should I do next? I don't love this. This is what I want to do the rest. What should I do next? Should I teach? Should I start my own fun? It's really hard to read the label from inside of the bottle.

42:13Have other people talk to them transparently about what you like and don't like, such that they can give you their viewpoint. But as long as you're one foot in front of the other and realize this young man is kind of where he should be right now. Okay, we'll be right back. Stay with us.

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44:39We're back with Profit Markets. Ed, this takes us to our next question. We're going to begin to wrap up here, but what are your long-term professional goals? It's Scott leaning in.

44:56so i genuinely don't think about the long term that much but therefore i've been waiting the whole pod to say that um i spend most of my time thinking about the short and medium term and what i want to do there and what i want to do in the short medium term is to make this podcast amazing like that's my goal i want this to be the best podcast in the world. I want it to be number one. I think it can be. I think what we have is honestly really good and pretty unique. And so that's what I spend basically all of my career time doing is thinking about how can I make the podcast even better. My view is that if I do that, because I feel inspired by this right now, the long-term stuff is just going to figure itself out.

45:46Like, I don't know what this is going to exactly lead me to. And people are always asking like, what's next? What's next? Like, I don't really know what's next, but I do know that if I really, really crush it with this and if we create an amazing podcast, whatever is next is going to be pretty good. So that is sort of the way I think about it. If there's things that like I definitely want, you know, I definitely want to be making a lot of money. That's important to me. I don't want to compromise on that. you know i think that i probably want to be economically independent at some point where as in you know paying myself i don't think that's anytime soon but i think i don't know why i want that but i think that that is something i want i feel like there's something kind of empowering about that the ability to pay yourself but yeah i don't i don't think about it i really don't think about the long term too much right now.

46:42At the moment, while things are going well, I don't see that much value in trying to be any one type of thing. I think things are going well, and that's what I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah, I'm 100 % with you on that. Scott, do you have any reaction? If you're in something that seems to be going fairly well, think, how can I be in the top 1 % if not the top 0.1%. Already, there's 600 ,000 podcasts. I think Prof G markets right now, or Prof G, the clinical profit is a top 100 podcast. So we're already in the top 0.6 % or 0.06%. And excellence, artisanship, mastery of something will make you passionate about it.

47:25Being near the best or being really good at something makes you passionate about it. Because the accoutrements and the self-esteem and the rewards and the camaraderie from being great at something make you passionate about it. So if you're fortunate enough to find something you're really good at and could maybe be great, maybe in the top 1 % in the world, as long as it's not a vanity industry where you have to be in the top 0.1%, is I think a really good aim. My goals are different at this point. I want to be the most influential thought leader in the history of business such that I can shape a better, more democratic America that has more prosperity for more people.

48:04I'm very focused on struggling young men. And at the same time, I want to make a lot of money and I want to build a lot of economic security for other people around me. You know, my goals are pretty, pretty big at this point. And then at the same time, you know, deepen my relationships with the people who are close to me because I sacrifice that a lot trying to get some level of economic security. My very first conversation with you, Scott, where we spoke on the phone, which was a huge moment for me, but I think you said recently you don't remember. My very first conversation with you, at the end of the call, I asked you that question.

48:40I want to know what your long-term goals were. And you said that you wanted to be the most influential thought leader in the history of business, or you want to be the governor of Florida. That was your answer. One of the two. What changed? Yeah, I learned more about politics. And also I realized I don't really like people. And it's interesting. If you make any amount of money and you have name recognition, people will approach you about being a candidate for something. And what you realize is once you get past your narcissism, you can have a lot. I think at this point with such an intransigent government and so much gridlock.

49:18I mean, I think Ed at this point has as much influence on a lot of levels as a lot of congressmen. our congresspeople, I should say. I think we can have a lot of influence from outside of the tent around issues. One of my things I'm working on is to try and pull together a group of podcasters who are moderate or center left or center right and start promoting each other's pods and to start thinking about candidates that we want to promote because I feel as if the right has weaponized this medium very effectively. And I think we need our counteroffensive against that. And we need to build each other up and maybe put some infrastructure around videos and then start thinking about great candidates who are more moderate.

49:56But I actually think that in a weird way, we have more influence than many elected officials. All right. This final question is for you, Scott. It's a two-part question with a fascinating twist, which I absolutely love. I'll start with the first part. My question relates to how Scott views his development and investment into Ed. Ed has developed a strong brand and authoritative position, largely due to his position on Prof G Markets. He has been paid to speak at events where his views are valued. So question number one, did Scott consciously know he would be giving Ed a platform to develop a brand when he hired him and gave him the co-host role?

50:40Well, I would say the same thing to Ed that my best friend's father said to me when I was at L2. This is someone who was really important to me, who was a real role model, a guy named Paul Fine, this like handsome guy who married my friend Adam's mother. And he was just this quiet, strong man who always had the most ridiculously cool cars as his career progressed, went from a 240Z to a Porsche 911 to a Ferrari. And I just really looked up to this guy. And it was a nice moment for me. He came to L2 and it was one of those days where clients were in the conference rooms and the place was just pumping and I would stop by a desk and I would say, what are you working on?

51:16And the analysts would show Paul where we're comparing Instagram engagement between between Adidas and Nike. It was just something out of like a bad movie on what it's like to work for a hip New York firm. And it was my firm. And we're walking out and I could just tell the guy was so blown away. And we got to the elevator and he turns to me and he's like, I got to be honest, Scott, I didn't see it. And that's how I feel about Ed. When I hired Ed, the reason I hired Ed wasn't because I was impressed. It was because I get fooled in interviews all the time. And Joanna Coles said, you got to hire this kid.

51:52He's my son's best friend and or good friend. And he's just such an impressive kid. That's how I like to hire people. I don't know if you remember this, Claire, but we tried out several people to be the co-host. Oh, I definitely remember. And I didn't know that Ed was going to win and we were going to choose Ed. As a matter of fact, I think we had a bit of a bias against Ed because we thought two white guys talking to each other on a podcast. That's just not, you know, that's the definition of a podcast at this point. So Ed's development and growth and the way the market loves him and the fact that he works so hard and he oftentimes brings more insight to these topics than I do.

52:33Because quite frankly, he just works harder than I do on this stuff. And he brings a fresher view. It's super exciting. It's nice to see. You're going to see as you get older and you start managing people, these really wonderful paternal and maternal instincts come out. It's really nice to see people succeed. It's nice, A, you benefit from it yourself personally and professionally, but it's nice to see young people doing well. It feels really nice. So, and also, as I think about, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I just turned 50. And I think in terms of building an enterprise and a succession plan, we have to build other voices.

53:12And so I'm really excited that Ed's kind of developed his own brand. I'm trying to do the same thing with Jess over at Raging Moderates. but I am surprised and infinitely pleased at how well Ed is doing. It's just a ton of fun to watch. And not only that, the team, it feels like the team is gelling. It feels like the show's doing well, the production quality, the notes, you know, it just all feels very good. And you're going to see, you're both managing people now or starting to manage people. When they do really well, it's very exciting, especially once you have recognized some of that success.

53:49It's, yeah, like I said, it tickles these paternal and maternal sensors that feel really nice. All right. So here's the kicker. Question number two. If Scott was not as financially secure as he is now, would he view that he would be owed any long-term revenue or royalty for Ed's career due to the platform Scott has given him to launch his brand. No. It's like, do I owe NYU money? NYU's been a bigger platform for me than I've been for Ed or you, Claire. I don't know about that. Go ahead. If I didn't have a professor in front of my name, I think they'd just say, that guy's obnoxious. The way I summarize my career is I went to some friends' birthday party.

54:41All my friends from college were all turning 60 at the same time, so I'm going to all these birthday parties. And my friend Mike Brooks said the funniest thing. He said, can you believe Galloway gets paid to express all of his opinions? He's like, back in college, we just called that annoying. You just wouldn't shut the fuck up about everything. You had a view on everything. And he's like. What did you have like a view on back in college? Like, do you care about business? What hot takes were you coming up with as a college student? So my hot take in college was I was the only Democrat. They were all total Reagan sycophants.

55:15And I was like, I had a Mondale sign in my fraternity room. And I'm pretty sure that was the only win. That does sound annoying. And I was telling everyone why Mondale was our man. And I had a lot of views on everything, as you can imagine. But my friends were like, we just called that annoying. And now he makes a bunch of money. So, no, the platform, you know, we'll be loyal to each other. We'll help each other out the rest of our careers. But no, no one knows me anything. Not at all. I don't. We've all, the great thing about capitalism, you know, the butcher and the baker don't give each other bread and meat for ethical reasons.

55:53They do it because it benefits them. This is a relationship where we all benefit. And at some point, you guys will go on to bigger things. And at some point, I'll go on to Aspen and the Ask Answer. And we'll all catch up and we'll all remember our days fondly together. And that's that. I really hope you don't get asked. Really, the amount of times it's like you're wishing for it. It's crazy. He's spoken it into existence. You're right. I'm not going to get it. No, neither Ed nor Claire nor anyone here owes me anything. I hope we stay involved in each other's lives because I find it rewarding. Some of my closer friends are people that I build companies with.

56:30But no, neither of you are going to owe me anything. All right. Well, the listener says kudos to Scott for an excellent hire and to give a young individual a platform to succeed. And congratulations to Ed for taking the opportunity and doing so well. That's very nice. Thank you for saying that. And same to you, Claire. Oh, thank you. Appreciate it. Exactly. This episode was produced by Claire Miller and engineered by Benjamin Spencer. Our associate producer is Alison Weiss. Mia Silverio is our research lead. Jessica Lange is our research associate. Drew Burrows is our technical director. and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer.

57:07Thank you for listening to Prof G Markets from the Vox Media Podcast Network. All year long, we'll be back in the new year with our predictions for 2025 only on Prof G Markets.

57:37As the world turns And the dark flies In love, love, love, love