Raging Moderates: How Obamaworld is Elevating Zohran Mamdani (ft. David Axelrod)

27:10Yeah. And that's why she's successful, and that's what it's going to take to be successful. Because, as I said, the status quo is unacceptable to large numbers of people who—and the bullshit meters are tuned up very high. They're feeling it. Yeah, Abigail Spanberger, a great person like that as well. And Mikey Sherrill. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break. Stay with us.

27:41We'll be right back. Jimmy Fallon, series premiere Tuesday on NBC. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small. From improving emergency response times to protecting against cyber attacks, local, state, and federal governments are innovating with Google AI. This is a new era of American innovation. Find out more at g.co slash American Innovation. Lowe's knows how to help make your home holiday ready for less. Get select style selections vinyl flooring for just$1.99 per square foot and have it installed before the festivities begin.

28:40Our team can help you every step of the way. See a Lowe's Red Vest Associate or visit lowes.com slash holiday install to get started. Lowe's. We help you save. Basic install only. Date restrictions apply. Subject to availability. Install by independent contractors. See associate for details. Welcome back. On Monday, Ukraine's President Zelensky was at the White House with a group of European leaders, a sharp contrast to his rocky solo meeting with Donald Trump earlier this year. The visit followed Trump's high-profile sit-down with Vladimir Putin in Alaska, which failed to deliver a ceasefire but allegedly sparked talk of a broader peace deal.

29:20Trump's envoy, Steve Witkoff, called the summit a breakthrough, though I didn't actually see much evidence for that. He said Putin agreed to U.S.-backed security guarantees for Ukraine, though the Russians are not confirming that. Allegedly, he eased his demands on land swaps, also not seeing confirmation of that. And Trump has shifted his own position, dropping the push for a ceasefire and instead aiming for a full peace agreement. The move clashes with Zelensky, who still insists fighting must stop before negotiations. And Secretary of State Marco Rubio is cautioning that the U.S. is nowhere near a deal.

29:52So basically, we have no idea what's going on. I want to reiterate for our listeners, we're recording this on Monday, but, you know, 36 ,000 foot view. David, what did you make of Friday's summit in Alaska? And how are you feeling about the prospects of a deal that doesn't include remaking the USSR? are. Well, look, Friday itself was kind of a nothing burger, at least from the outside, because Trump went in with fire and brimstone about how he was going to demand a ceasefire. And if he didn't get a ceasefire, he was going to take punitive action in the form of sanctions that he's been threatening for months and that Congress has been poised to impose, but haven't because he didn't want them.

30:38And then, you know, he went in like a lion and came out like a kitten, which has been the story of his relationship with Putin. And, you know, I go back to what I said before. You know, you hear a lot of people say, well, what does Putin have on Trump and all of that? I have no evidence of that. But I'll tell you this. I do think that they share this worldview. I think Trump admires Putin. Remember what Trump said when Putin invaded Ukraine? He said, it's kind of genius, kind of genius. Like if you can snatch a country, Why wouldn't you? Because that's the way he views the world. And so Putin is telling him, look, we've we've got the advantage.

31:19We're going to we're just going to keep plowing away. I'm willing to go the distance on this until they submit. You know, so this is the best you're going to get right now. I want this territory, the additional territory in the Donbass, which happens to be the most strategic territory that is being contested. He doesn't have it right now. And I'll stop the war. Well, you know what? If you're a Ukrainian, you know, this guy has twice violated past pledges not to invade. So why would they accept his word now? Vladimir Putin's word is worthless. So then comes the issue of security guarantees. And, you know, Trump apparently said, well, the United States might participate in that.

32:04What does that look like? But I'll tell you this, you know, I always try and look at it from the standpoint of the politics of everyone involved. I think Zelensky is going to have a very hard time selling that kind of land concession or any land concession, but certainly that land concession to the Russians or in any way certifying that is Russian land. So we'll see. But you could see overnight, you know, because in the modern era, at least in the world of Donald Trump, we do the most sensitive diplomacy on truth social. Overnight, he said, well, it's up to Zelensky. He could end the war right now.

32:44Well, yeah, if you surrender, you know, I think someone should tell Trump, though, that Neville Chamberlain did not win a Nobel Peace Prize, that capitulation is not the same as making peace because it doesn't endure. You know, I thought that Rubio was right when I saw him on TV yesterday. He said that it has to be verifiable. It has to be enforceable and it has to be enduring whatever agreement they make. Otherwise, you're going to be right back here again. And with Putin, I know Trump believes Putin would never do that to me. First of all, whether he likes it or not, Trump won't be with us forever.

33:20But maybe he thinks he can outlive Putin. But I'm not sure anybody who comes after Putin will be all that much better. But I heard Trump doing his exit interview with Sean Hannity on your network there. And I made note of the fact that he said, well, it's really up to Zelensky now. And the fear out of this summit was that Putin would dictate the terms and then Trump would then try and force Zelensky to accept them. And everybody was relieved when the post-press conference seemed to indicate, no, there really wasn't a deal and so on. Last thing on this, and I'm sorry you put in a quarter and got 10 plays here.

33:56No, I love it. As an American, I understand that you have to deal with foreign leaders on the terms you have to deal with them on when you're trying to negotiate something. But let us be clear, Vladimir Putin is a tyrant and a thug and a murderer, okay? He is a murderer. And for him to land and get full honors from a president of the United States with a military flyover and a red carpet and then, you know, lavish praise on the back end was disgusting to me. You know, Trump didn't have to do that. I think Putin plays Trump like a Stradivarius, you know. When Barack Obama met Putin in 2009, Putin was the prime minister, Medvedev was the president, but Obama met with both.

34:45And in that meeting, he said to Obama kind of darkly, you know, you you're an educated man. I'm just an old security apparatchik. But he is an old security apparatchik and he's brilliant at it. And Trump's the easiest mark on the planet. Every leader in the world now knows that all you need to do is flatter Trump and embrace whatever themes he wants embraced and he will treat you Well, what did he say when he heard Hillary Clinton on your podcast last week say she would nominate him for the... I'm going to have to start liking her again. I'm going to have to start liking her again. That is the...

35:25That's it. He's so simple. Trump's very simple. If you're nice to him, he'll be nice to you, you know? Yeah. So Putin has this all gamed out. She, I think on some level, has some of that gamed out. All the Europeans understand now, you know, Zelensky was a late adopter to this for reasons I understand. But now everybody comes with a bouquet, you know. But I think he admires Vladimir Putin. I think he thinks Putin is tough and smart and made himself unbelievably rich while serving as president and conducts himself by the rules of the world the way the world really is, which is you take what you want, however you can get it.

36:07Yeah, that's been, I guess, one of the more depressing lessons that I've been learning over the past few years. I've always been a kind of eternal optimist, you know, glass half full type person, didn't want to take the Hobbesian view of everything, that it's just nasty, brutish and short. and I don't know if it's just the Trump years that have pulled me over to that side, but I very much feel that way. And when I see these world leaders come together, and I agree with you that the Europeans want to be there as some sort of protection for Zelensky, and it takes a lot to get Macron to leave a vacation, right?

36:41A stylish Frenchman who wants to be by the beach. But I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist. And you said I have no evidence. You can go far in this business that way, you know. I do know that. Yes, I'm trying to keep some semblance of normalcy, though, to be true to my brand. But I do think that something meaningful, when they were in the Beast by themselves. Yeah, that was ominous. I think that those moments mattered a lot, whatever they were. I mean, you know, it would help be helpful. I mean, like I said, I don't have any evidence of what that might be. None of us do. But isn't it more fun when you don't?

37:16Well, I mean, but what I was going to say is if Putin had the most compromising material on Trump, would he behave that much differently than he is right now? No. And he's gotten, you know, it's not quite Helsinki level where Trump stood next to him and said he didn't meddle in the election. Right. But one of the pieces of reporting that The Times put out that I think was the most disturbing to me was that Trump and Putin really bonded over how much they hate Joe Biden. Yeah. Well, that's part of Putin's genius, right? A hundred percent. But it also plays into all of these sideshows that we have going on right now that they're trying to relitigate the 2016 election and that Tulsi Gabbard wants us to believe the idea that Putin wanted Hillary Clinton to win versus Donald Trump.

38:06and maybe it's just that I work in conservative media so I can foreshadow what the next few days of my life is going to look like. But I don't want those days of my life to look that way. You know, you want to be having a substantive conversation about, you know, what could have happened and what Zelensky reasonably could give up without completely selling out his country. And I'm always struck by the fact that, you know, how you have the list of demands, right? What Russia wants and what Ukraine wants. And the Russian demands never change. Literally, Vladimir Putin in four years has not even put comma something new.

38:39It's exactly the same, including the denazification of Ukraine. And watching Trump backpedal on true social and even seeing how much someone like Marco Rubio, who does have moments where he looks like his old self, hedging on the Sunday shows. And Steve Wyckoff just seemed totally out of his depth, frankly. But watching Rubio, I feel like he's the one with the most tells of the administration. Mike Waltz was as well, but Mike Waltz is no longer in that kind of position. And that's really concerning to me. Well, I actually ascribe to Rubio being both the national security advisor and secretary of state, the fact that Trump showed some public irritation with Putin.

39:25I thought, well, maybe Marco's whispering in his ear about some of this. But at the end of the day, you know, we'll see what happens here, but it doesn't feel good. You ever see the Manchurian Candidate? Yeah, of course. The first version, the 62 version, much better than the second. Yes. My parents made sure that I had that kind of education. Yeah. So anyway, enough said. Go ahead. It's a valid point, but it also, I don't know, I'm scared to get over my skis because you talk to intelligent people who watch what goes on and they say, well, can anything be true except the absolute worst case scenario in all of this?

40:03And then the right pushes back and they say, you're insane and you're stuck somewhere in the middle. But I want to make sure, because you mentioned when Obama met with Medvedev and Putin, you know, the Obama administration, the Biden administration and the Trump administration all tried to have some kind of reset with Russia and it was literally called that in the Obama administration. And I should note as well that Trump is the only one who's tried to do it twice, right? The other ones, once they saw him for who he was or who he has always been, they backed off. But are there any lessons from what went on during the Obama years that you think are important to understand for the moment that we're in now?

40:43Well, I'll tell you what, when Obama met with Putin, the first 57 minutes of what was supposed to be a one-hour meeting, which turned into a two-hour meeting, which worked out to my benefit, by the way, because then I got to sit with Gorbachev for 45 minutes while he was waiting for Obama. So that was an incredible treat. The reason he was late was because the first 57 minutes, I think, were a diatribe from Putin on all the indignities the West had heaped on Russia. So, So, you know, that was, I think, a foreshadowing. Medvedev, who's now turned into like a troll for Putin on social media, was actually a much more reasonable figure back then.

41:27And they did get some stuff done that was valuable. But, you know, it's obvious that Putin was the power behind the throne there. And when he resumed his presidency, things really backslid. And as you point out, not just in this negotiation, but for the last 20 years, Putin's fundamental motivations have been the same. He wants to try and reconstruct the Soviet empire. He wants to restore Russia to a position of leadership in the world. He wants spheres of influence, which is something that Trump also believes, that the strong sit down and carve up the world. I mean, I don't think Biden didn't understand that lesson.

42:13I think if there's a critique, you know, the Republicans like to say Obama didn't do anything when they took Crimea. He did. I mean, they they imposed very tough sanctions. They kicked them out of the G7, which I think did wound Putin, who has basically lived in a kind of exile on the world stage since that time, only to be ushered back in by Donald Trump in Alaska last week. But I think Biden was, you know, I think if you look back, you'd say at a moment when Russia was on its back legs and in deep trouble in this war, perhaps we should have provided more in terms of weapons. I mean, I think that's a very respectable argument.

42:56But the big thing is Putin is Putin. Putin has, you know, grand expansionist dreams and is willing, as we can see, to sacrifice millions of his people to that goal. And we need to approach him in that way. And so when you say to the Ukrainians, well, he's going to give you a letter. So good news. If that's really the case, you know, I'd be deeply, deeply worried about him. Yeah. Hillary also said, besides the Nobel Peace Prize line, that character just doesn't change that much. And there's no one that's more true of than Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. Oh, Putin is as consistent as can be. And by the way, on this issue of what he was up to in 2016, it was not even a secret.

43:44It was very open how much he hated Hillary Clinton because he thought as Secretary of State that she had meddled in his internal affairs, in his politics. And so he was going to he was out to punish her. I expect that he started out with no expectation that he could actually shift the outcome of that election. He just won the lottery, you know. Just get lucky sometimes in those meddlesome women making it difficult for you. We're going to take another quick break. Stay with us.

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45:47Terms and conditions apply. Welcome back. Before we go, Zaron Mondani's upset win in New York's mayoral primary has split Democrats. Party leaders are very nervous. But Barack Obama, he picked up the phone, congratulating Mondani offering advice and talking about hope in dark times. and Obama world, that's you, David, seems to be lining up behind him. And I guess I want to hear if you think that that's the right phrasing. You visited Momdani's HQ. Patrick Aspart is advising. Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer are checking in with his team. All of this is happening, even as leaders like Hakeem Jeffries and Christian Gillibrand hold back.

46:24What's going on? Well, first of all, let me say, Patrick invited me to come over and meet Momdani, and I was interested in doing it because... He's kind of amazing. He won an impressive victory in New York, and he seemed like an interesting person. And I wanted to see what was going on there. And I went over, and he indeed is interesting, and I think more thoughtful than his detractors would suggest. But I didn't know that Obama had called him and he didn't mention it. And I didn't know that John and Dan were in touch with him either. But we all probably gravitated to the same place, which is this guy ran a very positive campaign and captured the imagination of a lot of New Yorkers and especially younger New Yorkers who have come to believe that through their own lived experience that New York is unaffordable.

47:19and that, you know, the city is rapidly becoming a city of the super rich and the very poor and middle class people are scuffling with ridiculous prices and costs and so on. That was a winning message. Yeah. And honestly, it's a message that while New York is a special case, nationally, I think people are experiencing that. So I think that's a lesson that people can learn. I told Mom Donnie, I don't agree with every proposal that he has. But I know he's asking the right question, which is how do we make this a livable and affordable city for all New Yorkers and not just for the wealthiest? And he won and he got and he's the candidate of the Democratic Party.

48:02He won in part because young people voted in larger numbers. The early vote, for example, I think 25 percent of those early voters were voters who hadn't voted in mayoral elections before and they were mostly young. That's good for the Democratic Party. You want to bring people back in. And I think it's a I don't think that I living in Chicago or people living around the country, I don't think they should substitute their judgment about what they would want in their cities for what New Yorkers think is right for their city. And I think we don't go around screening mayoral candidates for ideological purity on every issue.

48:49I know that the Middle East, look, I'm the son of a Jewish refugee, okay? So Israel is important to me, and there are 15 million Jews in the world. Israel came into being after the Holocaust, 6 million Jews killed. And I know what it meant to my grandparents. I know what it means to subsequent generations. that that is a safe place, a refuge for Jews at a time when anti-Semitism is welling up. That doesn't mean, though, that one has to embrace the policies of Benjamin Netanyahu. And you can love Israel and hate some of the policies of Netanyahu. I associate myself with that. And there are some issues on which I disagree with Mondani relative to the Middle East.

49:39But he's not running for secretary of state. He's not going to make foreign policy. If he can make New York more affordable and livable for all its citizens, more power to him. Yeah. And that would be nice as one of those younger-ish people. I mean, elder, millennial. So I'm not young, young. You know, a New Yorker. Well, everything's relative. You're young to me. That's true. I was not at Stuyvesant in the late 60s. Yes. But I've had to, you know, Mom Donnie was not my choice. Actually, I had no choice in the field that I was actually interested in and was very disappointed that there wasn't a more.

50:14Did you vote? I did vote. Where did you rank Mom Donnie, are you willing to say? I actually didn't rank him. Oh. I just voted for Cuomo. Oh. Yeah. Of Cuomo voters, I think that was the most common way of doing your ballot. I haven't said that out loud, and I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of flack for it. But, I mean, it's been pretty clear that I voted for Cuomo because I did think the New York Times editorial board, where they came down on this, where they basically said, I don't like him. But I think that of the field, he's going to be able to do the best job. And I would have had to undo their persuasive editorials about why he should leave the governorship.

50:53It was a miserable situation for people. And then I saw and I started to pay more attention to Mamdani and why people were gravitating towards him. And I have I'm at peace at this moment. I am, you know, not thrilled necessarily about some of the issues surrounding Israel. And I'm very critical of Netanyahu. I don't I think he's a criminal. I don't think he should be in this job anymore. I wish he had been out years ago. There are a lot of Israelis who would agree with you. Yeah, majority of Israelis would agree with me. But, you know, Mondani has not been perfect in addressing people's concerns.

51:31And there are a lot of Jews that still have them. But he also got 45, 46 percent of the Jewish vote. And Brad Lander, you know, made that happen a lot of ways. I don't know if he would have been as supportive if there had been an alternative to Cuomo, like if Dan Goldman had run or a Richie Torres or somebody else. But we are where we are at this point. And I think that this look of not supporting the Democratic nominee who won so overwhelmingly is just sending a signal like we were talking about in the first part of our conversation to Democratic voters that we're status quo folks. We like it the way it's always been.

52:08Well, listen, I mean, consider what's being said, that you should set aside the nominee of the Democratic Party and vote for a governor who had to resign in disgrace and make him the mayor of New York. Someone who, frankly, hadn't expressed an interest in becoming mayor of New York. Actually, a negative opinion of New York. Yeah. And who Donald Trump apparently has now at least covertly embraced. I mean, they've had discussions and so on. I mean, one of the things that makes people cynical about politics is the, well, you know, I don't like this person, but I fear the other person more. And honestly, that is one of the things that's turned a lot of young people away from the Democratic Party.

53:00Like, how about voting on the basis of hope and on aspirations and so on? Mamdani is going to have to prove himself. I think he's going to be the mayor of New York. I do, too. And we'll see how he governs and who he brings with him to govern. I'm Patrick Gaspard, who was our ambassador to South Africa, was in the Obama administration as a political director in the White House, who has a long history in New York. Patrick's a good guy, a very experienced guy. And there are other people around him who say to me, like, he's going to pursue his goals and he has a progressive outlook, but I think he's going to be open to ideas and open to talented people.

53:45And I don't think it's going to be the sort of dystopic vision that, you know, Andrew Cuomo and the people who are trying to get him elected paint. So we'll see. But, you know, I'd rather take a bet on a hopeful candidate than on a cynical one. So you think hope and change can still win out? I'll tell you what, man, I can't get rid of that bug. I still believe in it. It's one of the best bugs that we've had. I still believe that the core of democracy is our ability to use the tools that we're given. And this is why maintaining democracy is important. Use the tools that are given to us to try and perfect our country and perfect our union.

54:33And when things aren't working, to chart corrective courses or other courses and explore other ideas. That's part of the genius of America. That's what's inspired the world or what are the things. So, yeah, I still believe in that stuff. And what I saw when I went over to his headquarters were a lot of young people who did as well. And I thought that was a very encouraging thing. Yeah, it would be nice if we could get back to those vibes. Yeah. For sure. David Oxlard, thank you so much for your time. This was awesome. Jesse, pleasure to be with you. Invite me back. Definitely. Anytime Scott goes on another month-long vacation.

55:12Yeah, or even with Scott. We could all hang. Yes, we should go hang on whatever yacht he's sailing and maybe do one on the back deck, you know? The way that Scott bops around the world is a sight to behold. It's amazing. Yeah. He is sui generis. Sui generis. One of a kind. A hundred percent. But you got a good thing going here. So thank you for inviting me. It was my pleasure. Thanks for your time. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to Raging Moderates. Our producers are David Toledo and Eric Junikis. Our technical director is Drew Burrows. Going forward, you'll find Raging Moderates every Wednesday and Friday.

55:47Subscribe to Raging Moderates on its own feed to your exclusive interviews with sharp political minds. This week, I'm talking to my co-host on The Five and the host of Gutfeld, Greg Gutfeld himself. You won't want to miss it. Make sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss an episode.