The AI Revolution Isn’t What Silicon Valley Promised — with Josh Tyrangiel

27:39So when I was doing some reporting around AI and the future of employment, I had a lovely chat with a guy named Nick Clegg, who was, you know, both the former president of Facebook. I think it was still Facebook when he was there, not Meta. And also the deputy prime minister of the United Kingdom. And he loves America. He's a really smart guy. And he's been both corporate and governmental. And what he said is that these issues are really disadvantageous to large functional democracies. He said, you know, the people who thrive when it comes to creating AI policy are the countries that are capable of having mature conversations.

28:16So like the Scandies, right, where there's a, you know, homogenous group of people, relatively shared values, not that much distance to travel to talk. So those countries, countries that have no conversations at all, like the Chinese, who are able to implement policy by dictum. But that when you're the United States and you're already fractious, coming to an agreement about how you want to use AI seems like a really, really big challenge, particularly when it comes to the fact that our politicians don't understand tech. And this is one of the real things that I emerged from in reporting the book is like, you're expecting people to create regulations around this stuff who really don't know what AI is and are often not using it.

29:01And as we think about the midterms, we have to begin to evaluate the literacy of the people who are representing us on the most important issue that we have. And we have failed to do that now for a quarter century.

29:19We'll be right back after a quick break.

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33:04One thing your book did, or your articles have done for me, is they've softened my view of Palantir. I think I immediately had this gag reflex of Palantir's violating all of our privacy. I do like the fact that Alex just wraps himself in the American flag when I think so many big tech companies were virtue signaling by shitposting America, thinking that's what their young employees wanted to hear. And he just said, no, we're very much pro-America, we're pro-Israel. I appreciate just how kind of, I don't know, transparent and, you know, out of the closet around this is what I believe. So you softened my view on Palantir.

33:42The impression I got from your work on it was that it is an innovation and that the government is correct to embrace it. Yeah, I think that's right. I do. I mean, the history of Palantir for most of its existence was a struggle just to exist, right? And so the first thing that they came up against in trying to make software for the Department of Defense was that the established contractors had such a moat around the Pentagon that Palantir could be making cheaper software, readily available. the software could exist. And the Pentagon just wouldn't pay attention to it. And so ultimately, what they did, which is not advised in most industries, is in 2016, they kept getting shut out, so they sued the DOD.

34:27And they basically said, look, there's a law in the books by Congress passed very specifically that says, if software off the shelf exists to solve a problem, you cannot go create new software with a new vendor. and we've seen endless versions of you doing this. So we're going to sue you. And I read through the trial transcripts and it's just unbelievable. I mean, the DOD's excuse is basically like, well, come on, that's how we do stuff, guys. Like, what do you want from us? And so Palantir sort of broke through and what they were able to do is ultimately they just have the goods, right? And this is one of those instances where it's very hard to remove the identity of the founder from the culture of the company.

35:08You know, Alex is one of the co-founders with Peter Thiel. Those two do not agree on very many things. Alex is a self-identified socialist, backed Hillary Clinton, backed Kamala Harris. They met in law school and bonded over a handful of things, one of which is America should have the best software. But ultimately, you know, where they got to is like, yeah, we can make things that are good enough cheap enough. And Alex is half black, half Jewish. He has a tremendous chip on his shoulder that he just will be very open about. He's like, look, my biography leads me to believe I'm going to be discriminated against by somebody somewhere.

35:47So what I've infused Palantir with, as he says, is like paranoia. We have to be better and we have to be cheaper. And if we're not, we're going to lose. And so that's a compelling founder statement. And they do. Look, they produce the goods. You can disagree with the government's use of Palantir and whether they're violating certain rights. They haven't been found to violate them in court. But they believe that America needs the best software and that they produce the best software. And so, you know, the government is a big client. It is hardly the only client. As I said, they do stuff for the Cleveland Clinic as well.

36:24It's often transformative. It's often pretty cheap. And so we have to reckon with the fact that it is a very good software shop with a very pro-American stance. You wrote something that was pretty controversial, or you made a statement that, well, the idea that the possibility of nationalizing our most powerful, powerful AI systems. Sam Moore? Yeah. So this is an idea that's floated around in a bunch of places. And when I first talked to Sam Altman shortly after GPT 3.5 came out, so we're talking about early 2023, you know, I said to him, this seems really powerful. Should the government take it over?

37:06And he said, well, it's funny you say that. In 2017, I went shopping to a variety of places in the federal government and said, we think you might want to nationalize this. And nobody listened. It's like, oh, that's interesting. So let me just trust Bob's. That sounds like bullshit to me. Is that true? So I, listen, I take nobody's word in the world of AI because of the hype cycle. I did some reporting on it. I went to people, particularly in DOD. DOD said they had not heard of it, that they had not heard of Sam Altman. They didn't, they know who he was, but they hadn't had these conversations.

37:42I did talk to somebody in the executive branch who said, yeah, that might have happened. Go. Okay. Now, I don't blame anybody in 2017 for saying we're not going to nationalize AI because we have no proof of concept about what you're even talking about. All I am saying in citing this as an example is like, it has come up from both the people who make AI. It has come up from opponents of AI, including Bernie Sanders, including Steve Bannon, because they feel like, and I think this is where populism becomes a really important component of the AI debate, their lack of faith in our ability as a system to regulate AI leads them to this pretty extreme idea, which is just, we're never going to be able to do it, so let's take board seats and let's take either, you know, Steve Bannon wants to take more than 50 % of these companies.

38:36Now, I think that's a lot. I think it's unprecedented in modern American culture, but it's an interesting idea that keeps coming up because I think people are really worried we're not going to be able to regulate these companies and really worried about the downstream impacts that may be negative. I would like to think we're capable of more nuance than just saying we're going to nationalize it, but maybe we're not. Yeah, the idea is less crazy than it sounds because if you believe the founders and some of the key executives of AI that this technology is more powerful than nuclear bombs, would we have let Oppenheimer create a corporation and sell their products into LVMH and sell their nuclear bombs to France?

39:29It makes a lot of sense. And you're right, the nuance here is, I think it's way too fucking late. And regardless of Sam Altman saying and all these people with the ridiculous notions that regulate us, remember Sheryl Sandberg saying they were open to regulation and meanwhile deploying hundreds, if not thousands of lawyers to get in the way of anything resembling regulation. it feels as if there's nuance around, well, okay, at a minimum, let's regulate them and maybe even do crazy things like have a 60-day holding period where a very thoughtful blue-ribbon panel of people, including yourself and economists and technologists, bang the shit out of these things before letting them loose on the public.

40:10We don't even have that. We don't. And you mentioned nuclear, which, you know, early on, as I started to report on this, when people would talk about nuclear power versus AI, you know, I was a little skeptical, right? Because obviously, if you are hyping your AI product, sure, you might scare a few people when you say, no, it's capable of destroying the world. But you're also going to excite some people who want to see what the return on a software that could destroy the world is. But one of the things that came up was, like, we actually do have international nuclear regulation and it's not perfect, but it's been largely successful.

40:45And so would we model something on the International Atomic Energy Commission where you do have to declare what kind of materials you have? You have to be open to inspection. Models over a certain size need to be passed through an international regulatory agency to confirm that they're safe. And where this always dies, and listen, I'm fascinated by why it dies here, is the people who we just referenced say, yeah, but China. Like, well, but China what? It's one of those unexamined statements where we just presume we know what China wants out of AI, but that, do we? You know, it's interesting that Trump and Xi Jinping had the very first conversation about AI in the spring.

41:33Everyone I know who reports and writes and thinks about China will tell you the same thing. What China wants from AI is what China wants from everything else, stability. They want stability. And so you have these two great powers, both of whom kind of want the same thing when it comes to global, you know, they would like to both be in charge of the world. Is AI the kind of thing where you can just come around and say, well, at the very least, we could both regulate it this way? We haven't tried, but we do have a pretty successful model. I've heard other people speak about it. I think there'd be openness, certainly from the rest of the world, to see some sort of regime work there.

42:12But I don't sense a lot of progress on it yet. I want to talk a little bit about warfare. The wars in Iran and Ukraine, the word that keeps coming up is asymmetry. And that is inexpensive, you know, basically a lawnmower with a bomb attached to it and wings, right, is kind of changing the game versus these expensive platforms and systems that our military industrial complex benefits from, but create enormous risk. We can't lose a B-1. And we also get very freaked out when, understandably, 17 of our service people are killed. And so asymmetric warfare just seems to be, I mean, the footage coming out of Russia right now is nothing short of just breathtaking.

42:58It also strikes me that it's autonomous. The reason we have this asymmetric warfare must be in large part because of the software specifically powered by AI. Curious if you've done any work on what the future looks like of warfare as AI increasingly permeates our systems. I think it's fascinating. And so I have done some poking around largely because I think the Ukraine, the battle between Ukraine and Russia is the battle between technology and old-fashioned human meat, right? Russian soldiers, I'm sure you saw this stat, but like new Russian soldiers deployed to the battlefield are surviving hours.

43:45Yeah. Life expectancy of like four hours, right? Yeah. I mean, it's shocking. And the reason is because the Ukrainians, you know, they were forced into a situation where they had to innovate on the fly, and they did. They innovated using AI and drones, where they are playing war like a video game. They have integrated data that they can operate off of. And they're winning with smarter machines and cheaper machines. And so when you think about that, and they're fighting still to some degree what some people call kind of guerrilla warfare because it's really hard to be organized and structured that way up against an empire like the Russian Empire.

44:25But they're doing great. And when you think about how that plays out to countries with vastly more resources, like the United States, I think what I've been told is that you should expect that our wars will be fought from Tampa. That, you know, there'll be CENTCOM. And we'll be fighting them on screens, not merely with drones that we're used to, but much smaller drones. There'll be forward deployments of people who can get, you know, validate what you're seeing in a satellite. But that that war is here. And so we have very little time to adjust to that. And I think the DOD should be very concerned about what happens with anybody.

45:08I mean, Ukraine is small. We've infused it with lots of our own technology and lots of money in the short term. But what they've shown is that anybody can kind of do this and that terrorism and guerrilla warfare are going to be very different going forward. We need to adapt. But this is absolutely fueled by AI and machine learning and pattern recognition and image recognition software all being infused on the fly. Like the degree to which the world is different in warfare from the beginning of the Ukraine war is shocking, just shocking. And the difference between the original invasion of Crimea in 20, I believe it's 2016 to today, it looks like decades.

45:47It doesn't look like a single decade. It looks like 50 years. So this thing is happening really quickly. I don't think the U.S. industrial complex has caught up to it yet, even though we make much of the software. But again, we have a system of government and a system of procurement that's still kind of operating like it's the 60s and 70s. Yeah, really, it feels as if, I mean, you were talking about how to totally disrupt or redefine or reshape the federal government. It feels to me like there's probably a decent opportunity to take our military budget from$1.5 trillion to$500 billion and create a more lethal fighting force embracing AI and asymmetry as opposed to these incredibly expensive platforms that just make us, quite frankly, give us a glass jaw.

46:40Unless we know we can, there's no risk of losing this$2 billion B1 or B2 that cheap and cheerful or we need to old navy the entire thing. That it might, there might be a, you know, real benefits here, a peace dividend or an AI dividend. I want to talk a little bit about AI in China. I want to put forward a thesis and have you respond to it. And that is, I believe that what China tried to do in the steel industry in the 80s and 90s, it's actually doing right now in AI. And that is, it's engaging in, I think this is the biggest story in business. It's engaging in massive AI dumping with cheap subsidized LLMs that CFOs across America that are increasingly asking difficult questions around ROI are going to opt for the lesser model that costs 135th or the frontier model.

47:34and that Beijing is going to do to Silicon Valley in 30 weeks what Detroit did to, or excuse me, what Tokyo did to Detroit in 30 years. Your thoughts around that thesis? Totally possible. It's very plausible. I would add one thing just for context, which is we still don't know about the percentage of distillation, and distillation is just essentially bootlegging, right? So when Anthropic or OpenAI comes out with a new model, the thought was that they would be anywhere from nine months to a year ahead of the Chinese in their sophistication, in the size of the model. And what we're seeing is that it's shrinking rapidly.

48:17And what the labs are alleging is that these models in China are distilled or basically stolen, adapted. Yeah, it's just classic IP theft, right? And we've seen this in every significant industry since the 80s from China. So they're alleging that on the supply side that they're actually just stealing their product. But the ability to undercut price is significant. And we've seen this playbook from the Chinese on the Silk Road. We've seen it in Africa. We've seen it in Latin America where they will subsidize the cost to convert national customers to using Chinese products. And they win twice, right?

48:59So on the one hand, they're able to gain access to those countries' cultures, to their data. They get customers who are linked to them to heavy infrastructure for a really long time. And on the other, they're taking money away from American companies. The issue for the American companies right now is they really haven't found a way to turn a profit on their AI. that the costs of compute, the costs of energy are so high. And what they have to do is so bad for their customers by locking those customers into a particular platform that, yeah, a lot of CFOs and COOs are like, I can't afford this, especially because right now, and I'm sure you're hearing a lot of this too, what you'll hear when you talk to CEOs is it's a little bit like, you advertising in the 60s, 50 % of it works.

49:49I just wish I knew which 50%, right? And now it's like, well, you know, AI works, but what part of the transaction was the one that worked? Why are my token costs so unbelievably high? Why can't I trace where the wastage is? And why do they just keep going through the roof? And so inevitably, when somebody comes along with something that is equally good or maybe 10 % less good, but one-thirtieth the cost, you're going to migrate over there. And at some point relatively soon, I would expect that we'll need a political solution to that. Because otherwise, I think it's very possible what you described is a very feasible scenario.

50:31We'll be right back after a quick break.

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52:09I think one place we don't agree is AI and jobs. And that is, I think the AI job apocalypse, I'd describe as apocalypse, no. I think like any other technical revolution or technological revolution, there'll be some short-term job destruction. But ultimately, I think the margin of productivity will likely increase the number of jobs. Where do I have that wrong? And by the way, I'm in the minority. Yeah, I don't think you have it wrong. I think there's just one X we need to solve for, which is the natural rate of adjustment, right? So I did a big story for The Atlantic in the spring just about, like, what is happening, right?

52:46We're hearing AI and jobs. We're hearing that the cuts are coming. But in the data right now, and even today, there isn't that much to indicate any pattern one way or the other. And yesterday, you know, we saw some announcements from some of the consulting firms, some of the big tech firms, that they actually plan on doing a fair amount of hiring throughout the rest of 26, right? But from just a rational perspective, if AI can mimic a lot of white-collar cognitive work and it's cheaper, we know the way businesses work, right? Now, when I talk to economists for this piece, and I talk to Nobelists, I talk to much younger economists, the disagreement in economics is not about what you just said, right?

53:29General purpose technologies, and let's say that AI is a general purpose tech, over time tend to bring more productivity, more jobs. They tend to enrich cultures. To go back to sort of the big one that everybody cites, right? Electricity. So electricity comes in and it replaces the steam engine, but it takes about 40 years for the impact of that change to be diffused throughout the economy. And the reason, of course, is that most factories were built on top of steam engines. So it was going to be a while before they just ripped out the guts of their factory and replaced it with electricity. America had to go through this massive project of electrification in rural areas.

54:10And so the benefit took about 40 years, and there was growth over that time because we had time to adjust, right? Something more relatable and more modern, you know, took about 30 years for E-ZPass to replace toll booth operators, for elevator operators to be phased out. And you just don't notice because it happens 3 % to 5 % a year until all of a sudden a job category is obsolete and there's no impact on the labor market. The question about AI, and this is a very, very hot debate in a very cool discipline, which is economics, is whether this is going to take three years, five years, or 30 years.

54:48If it's 30 years, you're not going to notice. It'll be fine. Job categories will change. Paralegal will go away, but there'll be some new field. Like, nobody's worried if it takes that long. And the divide is actually between older and younger economists. The older they are, the more they think, I've seen it before. It's going to be fine. Everybody should just chill. The younger economists who frequently use AI in their regular work are like, you guys aren't misunderstanding the numbers. You're misunderstanding the technology. This is technology that is capable of rolling itself out into an enterprise.

55:24And so we have to anticipate it is going to move much, much faster. And if it moves much, much faster, the disruption is going to be significant. And so those are the sort of two sides, and we're waiting for data. Like, it's the weirdest conversation with economists because they both have dug in, both sides have dug in, but the data doesn't yet show anything persuasive one way or the other. I'm curious. So we both write. You do it with much greater aplomb. But as someone who spends a lot of time, you know, with a laptop open trying to work on that last sentence, how do you use AI? I mean, it's a great question and it evolves day to day.

56:09Most of the time, look, you know it too. Like writing is so fucking hard and lonely. Hardest thing I do. Hardest thing I do. Yeah, and it's hard because you actually have to organize your thoughts and you're confronted with them physically in a way you are not when you're just walking around town. And so what I have sort of migrated into is a pattern where I kind of use it like a tennis player uses a brick wall, right? I get some strokes in. I can try some things that don't look very good. I can hone sentences. I've found that it's very good as a kind of like co-work partner on my roughest ideas.

56:46I can't really use it for, I still get, you know, results that I don't love when I try to use it for disciplined research. Summaries, it's still not great at. I still find myself reading every original thing I need to read. And look, you and I are sort of at the far end of the bell curve, not on our greatness as writers, but just on our volume, right? There's a lot of our stuff out there. And so, God forbid you ask even a really sophisticated model to write like you. What I get back is kind of cringeworthy. And maybe to other people it wouldn't be. But I feel like I'm looking at one of those caricatures of yourself you get, like, at a bar mitzvah or something where you're like, oh, my God, do I sound like this?

57:30And so it's not a writing substitute. it's a little bit of like a, I mean, I guess it's a helper. Particularly, what it's particularly good at in my experience is helping around the explanation of AI itself. So I have to do in my writing, you know, I try to make AI as relatable and understandable to normal people as possible. And sometimes that is really, really hard. And I like metaphor because I think metaphor is a pretty functional way to teach people something that relates to them. And so a lot of times I will be struggling with a paragraph or maybe even two, and I'll be bashing my head for an hour and I will go to an LLM and say, look, essentially unfuck this paragraph.

58:14And what I mean by that is put what I'm saying in logically coherent bullet points so that I can see if it actually stacks up. And I'm telling you, it is great at that. And I find that incredibly useful. But I still find it pretty weird. I mean, you and I have been at this for a while, so our work behaviors and our techniques are pretty well-honed. But I do find it on balance pretty helpful. Yeah, using the tennis metaphor, I would describe it as an amazing world-class coach or maybe even a doubles partner who's better than you that raises your game. Yeah, that's good. And again, I feel like everything in our society leads one place, and that is a transfer of power and prosperity and money from the young to the old and people who've had the benefit of certain asset ownership or tax policy.

59:06But with AI, I see it happening again as it relates to writing because we write well. But the reason we write well is because I got a C in English my senior year and in high school, and then I really struggled with English in college. But I did the fucking work. I went back to each sentence and I tried to figure it out. And as a consultant, I wrote a shit ton for my clients and summarizing things and got to a point where I was making a living not as consulting, but writing earnings reports or writing memos for CEOs who would then agree to pay me a million dollars for a consulting engagement if I would continue to write their company-wide communiques.

59:54And now that I have that base of knowledge, AI is like, okay, I've got a pretty good tennis stroke and you've put the greatest bracket in my hands ever. But I had to learn how to play tennis. And I worry, and I want to get your thoughts here. I worry that AI is really going to fuck a younger generation of thinkers and writers who never learn how to actually write. and the basis, they're never, my son said something so illuminating to me. My son who's 18, about to turn 19, a year ago he said to me, he said, Dad, I'm meeting a friend on Kensington High Street. Is there a good coffee place there?

1:00:37And I said, I don't know, just type it into AI. And he's like, I don't use AI for simple things. I want to learn how to sort through this stuff on my own. And I thought to myself, don't be so fucking mature. And I thought, I'm the one that's supposed to be telling him these things, not him, me. But it made so much sense. And the better high schools are just warning people, if you don't learn how to do this shit on your own, you're just going to be part of the system. The system's going to be using you. And you've seen the same articles I've seen, that 38 out of 42 kids are given an F in an exam because all of them are using AI.

1:01:11Your thoughts on AI never teaching us how to actually critically think. And we're raising a generation of kind of anodyne, non-creative, I don't know, workbots or transistors. Yeah, I worry about it. I do. I have a daughter who's going to college in the fall. Pretty good writer. She works hard. But the temptation, until you've actually seen the results of struggle, you don't know why you're struggling, right? And I think that's why we're all so focused on people between 18 and 24 when it comes to critical thinking, right? And so I was asked, and I had the privilege the day before their graduation, you know, the one-eyed man in the land of the blind, right?

1:01:53So they wanted me to come in and talk to the kids about AI. And I have a bunch of friends in education, and they've really helped me sort of organize my thoughts around it. Because education in America is really for two things. And we've over-rotated in one direction, right? So on the one hand, it is for credentialing, right? We educate you so that you may have a credential that says you are certified in these sets of skills. And AI is really good at that. It's really good at just taking care of cheating, of making sure that you can meet any credential any way you want, whether it's writing for you, whatever it does.

1:02:33The other thing that a traditional education does is identity formation. And identity formation is generally the key to a happy life, right? And so we've kind of rotated away from identity formation in many of our schools. We focused on, you know, fiscal ROI. Why? That's a way to measure it. That's how policy works. And what I see is like the value of identity formation in the age of AI is never going to be greater. You better know who you are, what you want out of your relationship with the world. Otherwise, I fear for exactly what you said, which is this kind of like lobotomized, moving through the world, constantly consulting AI to help you make trivial and important decisions, writing things for you.

1:03:21And so this sort of life without struggle that could be achieved, first of all, it's not a life worth living in my book. And second, it will dead end somewhere. You will always be found out. And so my hope, and I see a lot of what you see too, which is that there's a certain kind of self-motivated kid who's like, okay, if this is what the world is going to throw at me, fuck the world. I'm going to do it my way. I'm actually going to try harder to do this. Now, the one thing I would say about writing is like, you and I chose this perverse thing, right? And there are a lot of, yeah, like you have to, it's a very particular kind of person.

1:04:02There aren't that many of us. I do think that there are people who are getting great gain from the way AI can write. And it's not migrating entirely to the wealthy or the privileged. So I have a friend who, through a series of bizarre circumstances, inherited an apartment building in the Bronx. It's like a seven-unit building. He didn't know it was coming to him. And for the first, I don't know, couple years he was managing this building, it was an immense struggle to understand what his tenants, who did not speak English as a first language, what they wanted, why they were angry, what the communication was.

1:04:39And then he woke up one day in the fall of 2023 and he's like, I don't understand it, but I'm getting the nicest, most direct and clear emails from my tenants. And what they were doing is they were using AI and they were using AI to translate for them. And the translation component to me is the most interesting and effective use of AI that I've seen socially. they were clear, they were polite, and they were able to elevate skills that they didn't have. I'm not suggesting that's happening everywhere, but I do think that there are ways in which it's going to lift the floor for people who've been denied certain skills that are preventing them from getting what they need out of the world.

1:05:20And so I know what you and I are worried about when it comes to the intellectual formation of the next generation of thinkers and thinkers and leaders. But I also think it can be helpful in ways that sometimes are a little bit, you know, kind of blind spots to us. I'm curious, you've led newsrooms of Time, Bloomberg and Vice, and you've been generous with your time. We'll wrap up here. I'm just curious to get sort of your overall take or any predictions you might have on the evolution of the media landscape, print, streaming. What do you see happening? What predictions would you have for the current media ecosystem?

1:05:55You know, it dovetails a little bit with what we were just talking about. And I'll tell you a story from when I was at the Washington Post. And AI was just coming in. I was writing this column about AI. And one of the executives was eager to talk to me because they thought, well, surely this is the guy who's going to understand how we can automate so much more of our writing. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. You've barked up the wrong tree, my man. Like, don't you understand that successful journalism, like the moat is in news, new information, written by human beings. Until a Blade server can go out there and actually ascertain new information and talk to sources, this is a great business to be in.

1:06:40It's going to be rough for a couple of years because we're going to have to compete with a bunch of AI slob. But I actually think the sort of like incredible prominence of bullshit AI is great for places like the New York Times and the Atlantic and eventually the Washington Post. Because what we do is not old data. Well, one, it's not slop, but two, it's not old data, right, that can be processed and sort of spit out and regurgitated. What we're delivering is new information about the world as it spins forward. And so if we can focus on that, if we can be disciplined not to, you know, I unfortunately have come up in the age of like constant hamburger helper bullshit in the newsroom, right?

1:07:23Like very famously, people figured out early that search was driving articles. So the most famous example, what time is the Super Bowl, right? If you Google that, you're going to find something like 75 stories every year written by AI content mills now just to respond to a simple search. Well, guess what? Let AI have that bullshit non-monetizable crap. Why don't we in journalism focus on the thing that we were always supposed to be focusing on? New information written for our customers. So I'm actually quite bullish post the next one or two years of disruption on our ability to like have even better relationships with our customers who are no longer going to be able to use Google to sort of cheat around and figure out what we're doing.

1:08:11Like I think that the complete Google zero is coming. So let's have direct to customer relationships like a normal, healthy, productive business. Josh Tarengel is an award-winning journalist who writes for The Atlantic, at Creative Vice News Tonight on HBO and previously ran Bloomberg Businessweek. His latest book, AI for Good, is out now. Thanks a lot, Scott. This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez, Laura Jannera, and Asher Schwartz. Our video editor is Bianca Rosario Ramirez. Cami Reek is our social producer. Drew Burrows is our technical director, and Catherine Dillon is our executive producer.

1:08:46Thanks for listening to the PropG pod from PropG Media.

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