The Crisis of Men and Boys — with Jonathan Haidt and Richard Reeves

24:36And who's this from? It's from influencers who are stressing a certain kind of masculinity, which is, I've got, look, you know, I've got my passive income. I've got my fancy car. I've got, so it's about material success and also having a flat abdomen. They've got body dysmorphia issues more than they used to. So the idea of abandoning our boys, saying, we're not going to give you any guidance. We're not even going to use words like gentlemen anymore. No guidance on what it is to be a man from adults. and then we're going to put you in front of a screen and hook you up to influencers that don't have your best interests.

25:11We're going to completely renege on our responsibility to socialize the next generation. And so of course they don't know what it is to be a man and they're very vulnerable to being let off in different directions. And so the urge to make money quickly and show that you're smart and that you're then rich and that's going to give you mating success, of course a lot of boys get sucked into it with disastrous results. Yeah, I really want to add to that because John and I have talked quite a bit about this, the rites of passage point for boys. And I had a conversation yesterday with a woman who's a psychologist, and she said pain produces growth.

25:50We grow through pain. And for women, pain is built in. We have a menstrual cycle, there's childbirth. Whereas with men, actually, if they're going to grow through pain, actually, we have to create that. Now, at an extreme, of course, you don't want it to be dangerous, except there's a kind of line here, but there's something about growth through pain, growth through discipline, growth through some kind of hardship. All of these rites of passage that John's talking about will involve some kind of hardship, some kind of anxiety, some kind of difficulty, and it will require discipline. in. And so there's a weird thing, Scott, I was thinking about what you said earlier about like the search for volatility.

26:27That's sort of true, but it's also true for, I would say, there's a hunger among young men for a solid framework within which to grow through pain. Institutions, mentors, et cetera, and absent that, they're simultaneously searching for some of that risk-taking stuff, maybe in an unproductive way. But they're also desperately searching for for the solidity and the structure that we used to give them. Just very anecdotally, I mentioned earlier I was in Denver, so I went to the Latin Mass at the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Denver on Sunday night. It was full of young men, most of them on their own.

27:07Why are they going to two-hour Latin Mass on a Sunday evening? And I think it's because at least some of them are searching for structure and discipline and purpose and institutions that will help them become men. And so there's this weird contradiction. I think that they are hungry for the things that we're not giving them. And so how we give it to them, it doesn't have to be through church, it doesn't have to be through Boy Scouts, it doesn't have to be through fraternities, but we certainly have to find ways to reinstitutionalize the passage from boy to man. and we have to stop only saying what boys shouldn't do and also give them an idea of what they should do and why we need them and i think that gap and actually president obama said on his wife's podcast last week that on the left all we've done is say what's wrong with boys we've never said what's right with them and he's absolutely right about that and i wish he'd said it perhaps six months or 12 months ago but yeah it's great he's saying it now The statement I referenced earlier that really struck me of yours, Richard, was that the genders have done an amazing job of convincing themselves that it's the other gender's fault.

28:15And also, we have a tendency, I find, in our society to give women the benefit of the doubt and to pathologize men, and that everything is a derivative of The Simpsons, that Homer and Bart are reckless and stupid, maybe a heart of gold. And Lisa and Marge are just these incredibly high-character, flawless people who are underappreciated. And what I have found in this war of convincing that the other side is the problem, you do have a lot, you do have some young men who feel that the ascent of women has come at their cost. I would argue that's mostly the far right, not young men. Correct. They're being convinced of that, Scott.

28:57I will correct my statement, is that they are being convinced of that rather than that they've convinced themselves. Because a lot of young men, and I found this in your data, a lot of young men are actually quite progressive on gender equality. And I'll get shit for this, but when I go on TikTok, I do see a lot of women saying things like, why would I ever go out on a date? Why would I not expect to get an Uber when there's a huge chance I might be unalived? But the dude going out on a date with you is 16 times more likely to go home and hurt himself than hurt you. It feels as if the algorithms love really positioning men unfairly and women have bought into it.

29:46I'm being very reductive. Into this notion that young men are just more dangerous than they actually are. Richard, any thoughts? Well, there was that meme a while ago, wasn't there? Would you rather run into a bear or a man in the woods? Which I managed to avoid commenting on. But it was exactly this line, because most women said they'd prefer to run into a bear than a man. And so there's an online phenomenon around that. But I would say it cuts both ways. I would say that, and it genuinely saddens me, because I think that it is true that on the left, the messaging has been around, if young women are struggling, it is because of the patriarchy, it's because of young men.

30:28It's really sort of pointing the finger horizontally at young men, which is by and large, completely unfair, for the reasons that you've just said. But I think it's true now, increasingly on the other side too, which is that young men are being told, yeah, you're struggling, and it's the fault of all those young women. It's fault of the women's movement. And so it's almost like a conspiracy between the progressive left and the reactionary right to get young men and young women to blame each other for their problems, rather than the economy, rather than the institutions that are failing both of them.

30:59And so I'm not saying it's deliberate, but my God, if you really wanted to kind of avoid the political energy of young people being directed at the institutions of the economy and education and housing market, this is a brilliant way to do that, because the energy instead get spent blaming each other, mostly completely incorrectly. Do you agree with that, John? Yes. Well, let me add on to what you just said. You're tracing out a trend in which boys have been increasingly demonized in toxic masculinity. I've been studying the trends, the ways that ideology captures institutions, especially universities, for a long time.

31:31Really, since 2011, I began studying that. And that led to me being concerned about the lack of viewpoint diversity and founding Heterodox Academy and writing a lot on this and then writing The Coddling the American Mind with Greg Lukianoff. And so what I can say is that as our society has gotten more polarized, institutions that have leaned left, which is a lot of them, then have gotten more concentrated, more extreme, more ideological. And that process got worse and worse. There was never a reversal. Got worse and worse through, certainly 2015 was a big year on campus for protests and extension of this way of thinking.

32:05And then with summer 2020, with George Floyd and COVID, things got more intense. And this has brought about a huge backlash against, you know, call it wokeness, call it the progressive activists. So this trend of demonizing boys and never saying anything good about them, I fully agree. This has been happening and it goes back to probably the 70s or 80s and it's gotten worse and worse. But I actually think that it's turning around now. What I mean is, I think many on the left have realized that going this extreme into the identitarianism, that some groups are good, some groups are bad based on gender, race, that the identitarianism is what is destroying the Democrats.

32:45It's what is keeping them in the wilderness. You might have just seen the finding. The public opinion of the Democrats is the lowest it's ever been, or at least lowest since they started collecting data in the early 90s. so i am seeing among people on the left a much greater willingness to break with that tradition of boys bad girls good um and so and richard you've been a part of it i mean i watch because i've known you since we met i think 2015 we were 2014 we were working on that that big brookings aai report together i've watched you thread the needle carefully and and try to you know bring up you know bring up attention to boys without saying no don't worry we're not we're not saying that it's going to be at the expense of girls.

33:23But I think, and tell me if I'm wrong here, I think that to make those arguments today is so much easier. And you're finding so much more receptivity than you would have, say, you know, in 2017. So much easier. I mean, the fact that Obama's talking about it now and that we've got, sorry, and then we've got governors talking about it. So Gavin Newsom is about to drop an executive order specifically focused on boys and men. He follows on the heels of Gretchen Whitmer, Where's more? The penny has absolutely dropped, John. You're right. And I'm even finding now that when I talk to some women, even from much more progressive organizations, they're saying to me, yeah, yeah, I get it's not zero sum.

34:03I know you still care about women and girls. Let's talk about boys and men. Whereas previously, I'd have had to spend 50 % of my time doing all of that. Now it's like, yeah, we get it. So you're right. It's part of a general move. It's not just about gender. Which is very healthy. That is one very positive trend we can report. I think we can think more openly about these issues than we could have a few years ago. Richard, why are young men so much more susceptible to gambling apps than women? They are more risk-taking. They think they've been persuaded that they can get rich quick through some of these activities.

34:38Their frontal cortex is way behind girls, just they mature kind of much, much later, and they are more isolated. The evidence on this is kind of fuzzy to be honest, but it seems pretty clear that they're more isolated from communities, from institutions, etc. And then maybe lastly, they're struggling economically, educationally. I mean, if you're looking for someone who's struggling in the education system, struggling to launch, still living at home with their parents, you've said a lot about this, Scott. Much more likely to be men. And so if you add the fact that they are biologically more likely to be risk-taking, they're sociologically much more disconnected now from society, and they're exposed to these risks.

35:20I mean, the sports betting thing is just, it's hitting young men. Something like 98 % of the problem gamblers we're seeing now are men. I mean, John just published, and then we republished a piece by Jonathan Cohen and Isaac Rose Berman on sports gambling particularly. And what they say is, because of the change in law in 2018, we've just seen this massive explosion, as we know. And they describe it as making the gambling fully frictionless, fully frictionless and it's the friction that has saved us and it has particularly saved the young men because we are predisposed in any circumstances to this kind of risk-taking activity and then we don't have the same social institutions and we're struggling in life to make it fully frictionless then to go to this other shiny place that may make all your dreams come true it is absolutely perfect storm.

36:12And it couldn't be worse timed. It couldn't be worse time to give them what's the struggles that young men are having right now. And so if you were to choose the worst year to legalize casinos in your pocket, especially the casino thing in your pocket, it's probably 2018, which is exactly when the Supreme Court did it. There's just a couple of things. And you can comment on this, Richard, and I'd love to get your thoughts, Jonathan, is that 50, supposedly 50 % of college age males, you know, the ones that are supposed to be smarter, right, bet on the Super Bowl. So one out of two men on a college campus bet on the Super Bowl.

36:46My understanding is that as a percentage, gambling addicts have the highest suicide rate of any addiction because you can get in so deep. If you're addicted to meth, people figure it out and they try and intervene. And that's a helpful thing. You can get in so deep with gambling, no one has any idea, and you decide that it's too late. And then in states that have legalized gambling, they immediately see a spike in bankruptcy filings immediately. And when you look at the leakage, it's not a great way to grow an economy. Richard, any ideas on or public policy solutions around how we attempt to cauterize what appears to be a pretty negative trend?

37:26And that is, as you put it, putting a casino in everyone's pocket. Yeah. So you're right. The bankruptcy rates go up. They particularly affect young men in low-income communities. And so this is really laser-focused on the men that I'm most worried about. And I think we're just in the early stages of understanding this. The states who haven't legalized yet should think very hard. I don't think we're going to, or probably should, undo all of the legalization of sports betting. I think it's different for casino betting. And we're going to have to develop much better regulations and norms around this.

38:03I think the challenge with this one, and you've just alluded to this, I'm brilliant to know what John thinks of this. I was thinking about what John said about us being embodied creatures, right? Is that the very privacy of this online bedding makes it very hard to socially regulate. I mean, I was thinking about alcohol, right? If you go, I know some of you are interested in Scott, but like if you drink in a pub or a bar when there are other people around, you know, your spouse, your friends, your teachers, your whatever, then it's very different to being on your own. And the trouble is with this online thing is it's very solitary.

38:35And so I think it makes it much harder for us as a society to develop those social norms and those reflux, almost holding each other to account. And so you can't even see it happening very often. And I think that makes this a very, very different kind of problem. And I don't have a quick solution because I think we're still in the early stages of fully understanding this and developing some of these muscles that we need to develop. So I'm not in full scale panic on all of this, but I am deeply concerned. And I think John's further along the panic spectrum than I am, right? I'm deep in panic. I'm a six out of 10.

39:04You're a nine out of 10. You've leaned into the panic, Jonathan. Yeah, I think what's happening is so vast and accelerating so fast. Yeah, I think, well, of course, panic itself isn't productive, but I think communicating that this is, that the damage here is almost beyond comprehension. One thing I'll add to this discussion about gambling and men, And, you know, I've been studying why is it that boys and girls and so many people start getting much more depressed and anxious at a certain time. Critics say, oh, well, of course, because the state of the world and the financial crisis. But when you look at how economic changes affect mental health, you don't generally find that much.

39:46Mental health, depression, it's not based on your thoughts about the world. It is based on how connected you are and how your state. So in general, we don't see that connection. But I remember there was some data set I saw where it was about suicide rates. And it was that men, when there's a big economic downturn, you do get a big increase in suicide for men, but not for women. And I think what's going on here, if we also bring in the case, there was a number of years ago where the price of taxi medallions in New York City plunged. and all of these immigrant men, all these men from South Asia and elsewhere who'd borrowed from their whole, everybody in their family to get the million dollars or whatever it is to get a tax limit down.

40:25Now, suddenly they're bankrupt. They've let down, they've wasted the investment of their whole family. What do they do? A lot of them kill themselves, even though they still have obligations. If you're a man, especially a man who is a provider and you're taking a risk to make a better life and it fails, for many men, suicide is the only way out. And so I suspect, you know, Richard has told us about how much bankruptcies go up in any state that legalizes gambling, online frictionless gambling. You're going to have dead young men because if a man gets into that situation in great debt, suicide is going to loom very large as a solution to his problems.

41:03And so I would go much stronger than Richard. Richard says states that might consider gambling, they should be sure they have. No, they shouldn't do it. They just should not do it. I mean, this is a terrible, terrible thing. And so that's just one thing I would add as a psychologist.

41:21We'll be right back.

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42:42That's a lot of money. It is. And if we end up misspending a couple of hundred billion dollars, I think that that is going to be very unfortunate, obviously. But what I'd say is I actually think the risk is higher on the other side. You can find the AccessPod now on YouTube, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. There is a lot to talk about when we talk about Donald Trump and Jimmy Kimmel. One big question I've got is why in 2025 are late night TV shows like Jimmy Kimmel's show still on TV? Even in our diminished times, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, they're just some of the biggest faces of their networks.

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44:01We're back with more from Jonathan Haidt and Richard Reeves. Just in our remaining time here, I want to bring up a couple kind of current events because I thought of you, Jonathan, on one of these and you on another Richard. But I couldn't help but think, I wonder what Jonathan thinks here. Cold play. Shaming has played a really important role in our society and you talk about it. And it seems like we have industrialized and scaled shame. I would just love to get your thoughts on how this whole Coldplay thing is playing out. So what I would say is, you know, in a couple of my books, you know, because I study morality, my main area of research is moral psychology, how to become moral creatures.

44:48And so in two or three of my books, I talked about the importance of shame and embarrassment. If you didn't have shame and embarrassment, you wouldn't have people feeling they're bound into a moral matrix that constrains their action. So these are healthy, normal things, good for society when they're within limits. But what happens when you create a potential for shame that is 100 times greater than what we would have experienced previously, and when you expose children to it, when children, when teenagers have to face the risk, not just that a few friends will laugh at them, but that their whole school will know instantly and be sharing photos and commenting on it.

45:25And so there's a savagery that the online world has introduced in which shaming and embarrassment are so powerful that we feel afraid. My sense about a lot of young people is that, imagine growing up in a minefield, like literally a minefield, and lots of people you know are missing a leg. You would walk really carefully. And I think that's part of why we're seeing kind of the anxiety and a drop in risk-taking among young people. And so while I don't have many deep thoughts about what happens to a 50-year-old man caught cheating, a man and woman caught cheating, but I will say that before social media developed the feed, when it was just, here's my page, it wasn't so viral, life was one way.

46:15And once we have instant, unlimited shaming possible for all of us at any time, life is a different way, much more savage, much more inhumane. It wasn't at the end of the day, wasn't shaming meant to be a means of maintaining the social fabric? You're not supposed to, you know, beat up other people's kids. You get shamed, potentially expanse from the community, which could mean death as a means of creating social cohesion. And hasn't it just gone crazy and now it's ripping us apart where there's no economic incentive and shaming anyone for anything? And then I talked to your colleague, Greg Lukianoff, and he's totally convinced me that there needs to be a movement to separate shaming from your livelihood.

46:59Like, we made that connection. You know, no one ever gets counseled for being too woke. But the idea now that the go-to is a partner at Sequoia says something indelicate, off-color, whatever, inappropriate. Well, let's go after his livelihood. I mean, that's a new thing, isn't it? Hasn't shaming what used to be a means of social cohesion has become a means of social destruction? Well, I think if you're publicly shamed, you know, for centuries, you would step down, you know, Japanese business people would commit harikari. I suppose that's true. So I think the connection has been there for a long time.

47:39It's a question of proportionality and frequency. and I think what we're all agreeing on here is once everybody is commenting on everybody and everybody has a camera and everybody, you know, it's like growing up in East Germany where there are spies everywhere and cameras everywhere. And so I think that's part of Greg's point is the idea that if you are caught doing something wrong or just alleged to have done something wrong, we need to have a clear rule. No, you don't lose your job for that. We don't fire people for that because it's coming for all of us. And with AI, even if you haven't done anything wrong, if anyone wants to get you, they can just make a video or misinterpret or reinterpret a video of you.

48:15So yeah, we have to get, we have to develop defenses against this because, you know, shaming, you know, this sort of savage frequent shaming is rising and is part of our future unless we do something to constrain it. Richard, I had a, I'd love you coming. I had a clip go somewhat viral. They got several million views of a podcast I did with a woman named Liz Plank, who I think is fantastic. And she has a podcast, I think, called Man Troubles. And I said that I think men should pay for everything on a date, at least initially. And that if you look at the gestation period window, which is much shorter for women than it is for men, when you look at the research that you have produced, that actually there's a myth that women benefit more from relationships.

49:01No, actually men benefit more from relationships. And the downside of sex is so much greater for women than men. And the majority of men date with at least a decent hope of sex, that there's an asymmetry in what the woman is offering in terms of her time, in terms of the risk presented, and that one way you attempt to show that you recognize the asymmetry and kind of level up is to economically sacrifice and pay. And this got all sorts of, it was hugely polarizing. A lot of people very much in support of it. A lot of people saying, oh, so you want to continue to own us? And I do not want to own men.

49:36I'm curious what you think about the dynamics between men and women and economics around the early stages of mating. Yeah, well, it leads very well from the conversation that we just had and John's point about suicide risk and feeling unneeded, unwanted among men. I think that's absolutely right. We've just published work showing that separation just massively spikes suicide risks among men, not among women. And interestingly, the most recent surveys show that actually men are now more likely to say that getting married and having kids is important to them than women are. So like men know at some level that the idea that like men don't want to settle down, they just want to go their own way, or whatever, it's just absolute bullshit.

50:24And the vast majority of men know that. They know they'll have a better life. The question of economic resources and signaling, I just talked to my sons about this. So one of my sons is a fifth grade teacher in Baltimore City. All my sons are very thoughtful on these questions, you can imagine. And we ended up, all three boys had this conversation about paying on the first date. And their interpretation of it was, what the signal here is between the man and the woman is not, I'm going to pay for everything. I'm the provider. Don't you worry your pretty head about making money or anything. The signal is I have some economic resources.

51:03It's not necessarily that I'm going to provide, but it is just something, it's a signal that I, and it's a signal I've got resources, so I'm bringing something to this relation, and it's a symbol of some of this kind of sensor provider, etc. And so I think it has both symbolic value, which remains even in this new world, and it's a signal is that I am not going to be relying on you. So that's where I land on it. I'd like to add to that because I've had this discussion with every one of my MBA classes. I teach a course called Work Wisdom and Happiness at NYU Stern. It's about 35 to 50 MBA students.

51:42These are young men and women in their late 20s, mostly. Most are single. Most are on the apps. And every year, I guide them. We talk about what this is doing to them and how to play the game. And every year, we have this conversation because I want them all to see what always comes out, which is almost all of the women agree the man should pay on the first date. And the man just like, there's no question about this. Like if a man who offers to split the check or it doesn't offer to pay is a real turnoff. And the way that I understand this is that monogamy is pretty rare among mammals. But where you do find monogamy in birds and occasionally mammals, you have courtship rituals.

52:21We evolved to have certain courtship rituals. And mating is a dance, and hooking up is not. But if you want to actually fall in love, or if a young man wants a woman to fall in love with him, he should engage in the courtship ritual. And the courtship ritual is the man needs to take the initiative and offer to pay while—this always comes out in conversation—while being incredibly sensitive for signs that the woman would prefer it a different way. Yeah. So as long as you offer and if she insists, OK, that's a different story. But you should take the initiative. We, again, we're an evolved species.

52:58We have evolved for heterosexual sex. Obviously, there's 5 % or more people are gay. But we have deep within us courtship rituals that we can't erase no matter what our conscious ideology is. I'm going to suggest and I'm going to tease a second episode here or a part B where we go through a half a dozen to a dozen policy recommendations and talk about the upside and the downside and how viable they would be to address some of these issues. Because to your credit or to your point, Richard, I think I can't tell you, and I know you sense this, how much more productive the conversation has become.

53:38Five years ago, you said anything, quote unquote, talking, referencing the struggles of young men. You're a misogynist. You're Andrew Tate, you know, teaching at a business school. Now your hair is on fire. And all of a sudden in the real allies here have been mothers who say, I sent something. I'm a feminist. Something is up with my son or relative to the daughter. So I'd like to do a second, and I know you guys are up for this, a second podcast where we go through each of the policy solutions. And Richard's proposed the most from redshirting young men to more men in K through 12. I have some ideas around tax policy, but I'd like to just go through each of them and get each of your responses.

54:15But before we wrap up here, I would just love to hear something around something you did recently with one of your boys and any insight or advice for young fathers or any just sort of the world of dadding, the world of being dad from Jonathan Haidt and Richard Reeves. Okay, well, I'll go first because Richard will have more to say having three sons. I have just one. but about two or three years ago I took my son and a good friend of his to a gun range and they learned to shoot and in our social circles I don't think very many people who live in Greenwich Village are shooters but that was an exciting day for my son and for his friend and it was just a really fun day of bonding So yeah, just do things with your kid, give them experiences and excitement.

55:14That's one example. I live in East Tennessee now. I gotta tell you, my sons love the gun range. That is a big part of the attraction of where we live now. But actually, I was thinking about you the other day, John, when I was thinking about this. My son and I would play tennis together. and he would get so distressed when he lost. There was one particular day he came home and he was like, his head was down. He'd lost again. He's better than me at this point. Just couldn't beat me. He's really upset and he goes in the house and he's still can't beat dad. And my wife said to me, she said, well, can't you just let him win just once?

55:52He's so upset, right? Because she's doing a maternal thing. She's like, he's so upset, right? And I said, well, he should be upset. I just beat him again. And then I said, he will know if I back off, he will know. He will sense it and it will mean all the more to him when he beats me. And then that day came when he beat me, it was a long game and he beat me and he, and I played, I, I tried to beat him. I tried, but he beat me. And so you've got to make your kids work for it. You've got to make, it's got to be painful. You grow through pain. And so it was very painful for him to keep losing to his middle-aged dad at tennis, but I got to tell you, and now he's a very good tennis player.

56:27But, but I said to my wife, he's got to win real. He's got to suffer. And then it will mean all the more when he wins. And so that's probably one of the best things that I've done with my sons. I love that. So I'm going to go. I recently took my youngest to Chicago. I like to do one trip a year with them just solo. I find the dynamic is so different when you have them alone as opposed to with their siblings. And we went and saw, you know, we did all the stuff, pizza, tallest building, river tour, and we went and saw the movie F1. And at the end of the movie, he said, I love the end of Fantastic Four as we're walking out.

57:04And I said, let's go in and watch it. And my son, kids are so, at least my kids are so politically correct now. He's like, no, we can't do that. And I'm like, sure we can. And I grab him. And I passed on the age long tradition that I was fantastic at as a boy. I used to sneak into movies all the time when I was a kid. and sneaking into movies now is you sit in the back and you watch the last two minutes and he's sweating he's so nervous and i told his mom about it she said you know you're teaching him really bad values and i'm like look your job is to make sure he doesn't get into too much trouble my job is to make sure he gets into a little so anyway sneaking into movies with my youngest teaching him poor values jonathan height is a social psychologist and author of the anxious generation richard reeves is the founding president of the american institute for boys and men we hope you enjoyed this podcast.

57:52We're going to do a second one where we speak specifically to policy recommendations and try and dissect them. Gentlemen, thanks so much for your time today. Thanks, Scott. Great to be on the show with you.