The Economy, the Media, and Fatherhood — with Kai Ryssdal

22:33And now we're going from there. But if you look at other indicators, if you look at jobs, if you look at wages, if you look at consumers, I don't know how you get to a recession from where we are right now. The CEO of Apollo had an interesting view on it. He called it, we might be in for the non-recession recession, and that is the wages and employment remain strong, retail sales remain strong, but asset values come down, that so much of asset value prices are now dictated by the top 1%, that with a spike in interest rates, you might see the price of real estate, the stock market come down, but that the real economy remains fairly solid.

23:08Yeah, the real economy is robust. And look, asset prices could afford to come down a little right? I mean, you know, the major indicators are now in a bull market. Let's not put those identifiers on it. That's sort of a fallacy anyway. But they've been high for, relatively speaking, for a very long time, and they could use a little air coming out of them. And consumers, you know, you can talk about economic headlines as much as you want and pick your indicator. But as long as consumers are spending and as long as they have jobs, which they do, there are still openings and you can get a job if you want one in this economy.

23:39It's really tough to see this being a hard recession. Look, yes, I know we've never really successfully, except for that one time in 94, engineered a soft landing. But maybe, maybe, maybe this time is different. As we've talked about on Marketplace for three years now, everything has changed. Everything has changed, right? Where I'm in a shed attached to my garage, talking to you who's God knows where, because you don't have to go into an office. And if you don't want to, you don't have to, right? I mean, I've got a 25-year-old son who said to me the other day, Dad, I am never going to go to work for a company where they make me go to work five days a week in the office.

24:17And that's the reality, right? And that's where we have to go from here. This is now the baseline. Let's adjust. What are some of the market stories that you've been thinking about that you don't think have gotten the sunlight they deserve? Well, look, let's set aside AI for a minute because we just don't freaking know what's going to happen with AI. And look, I know you're a big fan. And I am scared and dubious and a little bit excited. But otherwise, look, I think you have to look at things like transportation. That and as the supply chain snafus come undone, there's a boom to be had there. And I think, honestly, the fortunes of tech going forward in this new environment, right?

24:59How they function, minus these excess people that they've shed, as we all now keep turning to technology and you can, you know, buy yourself a pair of Apple$3 ,500 visors, whatever the hell they're called, if you've got the 3 ,500 bucks and you can figure out what to do with it. But look, technology is the future. That's, and it has been for decades and we're going to keep on going that way. And so you said something that you're a little bit dubious or scared of AI. What, what are your thoughts, expanding your thoughts on AI? We are not ready for what it can do. First of all, it's come so fast, right?

25:33Technology obviously moves faster than human beings can calculate. But like yesterday, there weren't a thousand people in this country who could spell AI, you know? And now my daughter doing chemistry homework is searching for help with, well, she was, and if you're her chemistry teacher, don't listen to this, on chat GPT, you know? And also, oh, by the way, it was wrong. It was giving her the wrong answers. And that's part two, right? We, the human species, are not sophisticated enough critical thinkers to be able to look at this amazing tool and not go, wow, this is incredible, instead of, wow, this is incredible, but.

26:16And what do you, so is this a technology, if you look at, you spend a lot of time, I think if like you're the Andrew Ross story, what he is to television, you are to radio. That's very flattering. I appreciate that. Remind me of each other. Which technologies or which companies do you think are best and worst positioned in tech? You know, the answer is, I don't know, right? Because I try to look at the economy as a whole and as a consumer, and I don't look at specific companies like you do and like Andrew does, right? Andrew's much more laser focused than I am. I will offer you this. I think what we have to do now is think about AI as it affects professions and industries.

26:56Mine, for instance, at some peril. You can probably go out now and find a chat GBT that sounds like me, has the attitude that I have, has the syncopation and delivery that I have. And if my bosses could figure this out, I'd be out of a job tomorrow, right? I think, honestly, people who add value in this economy, arguably people like you, right, with thoughts and critical thinking and skills, not to blow smoke, but that's your stock in trade. And as long as human beings can do that better than AI, then I think we're going to be fine. The trades, I just had$1 ,500 worth of plumbing done on my house, which is a long, long story.

27:33But we need people who can turn wrenches and drive trucks until automatic trucks get here, right? We need all of those things that people can do with their hands. And so maybe they will finally have a boom in this economy as knowledge workers suffering and are challenged. So you're in the media. I just want to, I'd love to get your thoughts. And the simplest way to ask the question is CNN question mark. Oh my God. Oh my God. Um, so look, I, I actually feel for the journalists at CNN who, uh, and look, I've been critical of a lot of their coverage, but they work hard. They believe in what they do and they have pride in their product.

28:11And the last 18 months, well, two years, ever since the Zucker thing and the Andrew Cuomo thing have been really tough for them. And so I sympathize for them. That said, their industry is in a secular decline, right? It's just going away as technology changes and CNN is going to have to go over the top as opposed to being part of the cable package and then revenue is going to decline. Media writ large, look, I think those of us who can add of context and perspective in addition to the raw information, right? Because you can get a news story from AI today with some layers of sophistication in it, but I don't think you can get necessarily the context that I give or that Andrew gives on the mornings on CNBC and the experience in a way that's going to be meaningful for people.

29:00And then, of course, you have to factor in social media, right? You have to think about things like Twitter and all the others that are trying to grow up out there. And I don't know. I think probably Twitter has dealt a death blow to the idea of news by social media because Elon Musk has done whatever the hell he's doing with that platform. And so now all of us who have profiles and audiences on Twitter are using it less. I don't have the time or the energy to build up another social media platform, right? It takes, I mean, you know, my followers, however many of them there are, it took me 13 years to build that up.

29:34And I don't have the time or the oomph right now to go back and do that again. You have accounts on Twitter, Macedon and Post News. Neither Macedon or Post News have really registered with you. I switched over because everybody was switching over. And look, this is a failing of mine, right? In hanging on till the last gasp. I really, when it was great, I enjoyed Twitter. I had a good time. The interactions, the serendipitous discoveries, I've got a zillion people in media and elsewhere who went out call my Twitter buddies. And I have interactions with them, even though I've never met, we've never spoken on the phone, couldn't pick them out of a crowd if their avatar is not actually their picture, but I really enjoyed it.

30:12And what came clear to me when I did the blue sky thing and I did the Mastodon thing, and I think I have an account on post, but I'm not really sure, is that it just takes time and energy. And I've got other things in my life I need to concentrate on right now. And when you think about podcasting or shifts in streaming and you think about, I mean, you've got a brand and you've got a following. If you could just have like shake your channels and your presence on an Etch-a-Sketch, where would you devote most of your time? Do you think it's, do you think it's, would you want a big TikTok following?

30:46Would you want to double down on podcasts, radio, linear radio? What is your thought about the media landscape as it relates to trying to build a following? Look, I love linear radio, but let me back up to TikTok for a minute. I don't have mental energy for the scrolling of TikTok and the scrolling of Instagram reels and all the rest of them. It just it's such a time suck. And and look, there are great serendipitous discoveries to be had there as well. And recipes and, you know, whatever. I just I don't have the gas for that because it just it saps me. Look, linear radio. I love linear radio. Linear Radio made me what I am today in terms of brand and presence and name as far as that goes.

31:26As I say to people when they say, oh, you're such a star, I'm like, I'm a reasonably big fish in a sort of smallish public radio pond, right? But that's not the way of the future, right? People in COVID stopped driving in their cars and Linear Radio's audience went down. And it's questionable as to whether or not we're ever going to recover. The future, obviously, is podcasts. The challenge, of course, is that there are too many. But if I could do the extra sketch, I'd find long-form podcasts on subjects that I'm interested in, and I would do those as long as I feel like working, which, you know, another 15-ish years probably, right?

32:04We'll be right back.

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33:46I thought, and this was probably six or eight months ago, that Biden was going to take the better counsel and not run again. He would say, look, I have done what I promised to do. I've restored respectability for the United States. I've restored confidence in government. My job here is done. It's time for somebody else. He obviously didn't do that. And now this 2024 election is fraught for a whole bunch of reasons that have nothing to do with who the Republican candidate is going to be. Right. The man's going to be 86 years old at the end of a second term. And this one actually is on the Democratic politicians in this country.

34:24Right. That nobody has the guts to say he's too old. I mean, look, yes, he's mentally sharp. And yes, he negotiated with Kevin McCarthy. And yes, he won, air quotes, the debt limit negotiation. But he's old. He has the stamina of an older person, right? Read his schedule. That's a real challenge. So my prediction for the 2024 election is it's going to be about a whole bunch of things that are not policy. Yes, there will be Biden and the role of government in this economy and infrastructure and build and jobs. And maybe it'll be Trump and American carnage. I don't know. But we're going to be talking about age and we're going to be talking about the vice president.

35:05And we're going to be talking about a bunch of things that I don't believe this country is best served by. Yeah, I think that I think the Republicans are basically going to try and run against Vice President Harris and try and convince people that it's really that she's going to be the president.

35:22So do you think that, well, I'll put forward a thesis, that on the left, we're so worried about being an ageist that we ignore the fact that biology is ageist. And, you know, it feels to me that at the age of whatever it is now, 81 or 82, there's a good chance the next 15 months you could get very sick or die. It's just, you know, when your parents get to this age, it's touch and go on any time anything happens. And it strikes me that sometimes on the left, we're so worried about being empathetic and progressive that we just create an enormous opening for the Republicans to run through. And I'm not classifying as Democratic or Republican, but any thoughts?

36:01Sure. My thought is the Democrats bring a knife to a gunfight every single time, every single time. Well, say more. Well, look, okay, let me frame it a different way. When Trump was in the White House and he would do whatever it was, I would be generally appalled on what he was doing specifically with the economy, right? Because that's my beat. And he demonstrated that he didn't really understand the economy and how it works. But then you'd see folks, whether in the commentariat or on Twitter or on whatever, saying, well, Democrats ought to do the same thing. and we ought to, you know, not adhere to the norms and we ought to do whatever.

36:41And I said for a long time, if you want the norms to be upheld, you have to uphold the norms, right? If you want a president to do X, Y, and Z, because that's what we always do, then you can't actually, because the other guy's doing something, do, you know, whatever you want. And I think the challenge for Democrats now is that all of that is off the table, that the political dialogue in this country has become so barbed and so base that there is no room for nuance. This isn't necessarily new. There is no room for nuance and there's no tolerance for trying to have a reasoned discussion. And so what happens is the Democrats try to have a reasoned discussion and Republicans steamroll every single time.

37:30Yeah, it definitely feels as if the U.S. was a horror movie, the call is coming from inside of the house. There's such a lack of trust or civility. So let me ask you this. Sorry, I know it's your podcast, but I respect you as a thoughtful person. There is no trust and there is no civility. And I will say parenthetically, this is sort of a self-serving question because I'm working on ginning up a speech that I can start giving to people and groups in high schools about restoring trust and public service and what it means to be a part of this country that we we call America. What do you think the solution is for the lack of trust and mutual respect that we have right now?

38:07It's Lieutenant Kai Rizdal. You were a lieutenant, weren't you? I was. I think social service. I think mandatory national service. I back a lot of Israeli companies, and I find that the founders met each other in the army. They met their spouses in the army, and they see themselves as Israelis before conservative or progressives. And when I think of the great legislation in the 60s and 70s. I think it's because the people we elected, granted, you know, men, white men, so there's some problems there, but they'd served in the same uniform, and they saw themselves as Americans. And then also a reverence for the truth, that we got to get back to the closest thing we have to the truth, and that is data and science.

38:49And that, you know, if someone can convince you to believe absurdities, they can convince you to commit atrocities. So the first place I would start is national service. And I'll put the question back to you. What are your thoughts on national service and how serving your country impacted your view of the world? Oh, look, my military service made me what I am today. It lasts to this day in me. I believe strongly in mandatory national service. For a while, I thought it was mandatory military service, but I don't actually think it has to be that anymore because we're not in that place. And look, I've got a whole riff on whether we would have been in Afghanistan if members of Congress's children could have been drafted.

39:28But that's a whole different thing. We have no common experience. We have no mutual understanding of events and experiences that make us what we are. And look, the greatest generation is a horribly overwrought phrase, but they had something that I don't think we've had in this country for a very long time. And you could say, well, there was a draft in Vietnam and how look at how that worked out. And I would argue that what happened in Vietnam in terms of national unity and cohesion was, number one, the result of the government lying to us. But number two, as a result of that, the home front became completely fractured.

40:09And so there is a way I don't know what it is yet, but i'm working on it To re-establish This common understanding of what it means to be a responsible member Of this representative democracy and I should tell you, you know, so i've got four kids One of whom listens to this podcast and and uh, who i'm sure we'll hear about this from but but my second son I don't believe listens But he and I have been going round and round for a couple of years on this idea of a responsibility to what it is that this country has given us. Sorry, this podcast took a whole different turn, but whatever. He does not see it my way.

40:50And I was trying to we were out to brunch as a family a year or so ago in Westwood, and it was just not long after the Russian invasion. and I tried to explain to him why it matters to the United States that Vladimir Putin is doing what he is trying to do to the Ukrainians and why it matters that we stand with them in their defense. And he basically said, dad, why is this my problem? And I said, basically, literally in these words, because freedom isn't free. And then I said, oh my God, think of a better line. but it's not without controversy, this idea, even in my own family, but it's something I believe strongly.

41:30Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a multidimensional problem though, or with no silver bullet, the national service. I also think the social media algorithms that pit us against each other have convinced us and your son to a certain extent, that's an adjacent indication of it. People think their neighbor who's the different political party is the enemy, not Russians pouring over the border in Ukraine. And we've got to get back to this basic truth that Americans will never have greater allies than other Americans. I think that's a big problem. Income inequality, my God. I look at what's happening in LA.

42:04I mean, that's a whole other ball of wax. But you're a dad, four kids. I'd love to get your advice on what you've learned, notes on being a dad, what you would do differently, what you would do again. I, um,

42:24my, my kids and my family are my whole life. I mean, yes, I have a rewarding career and yes, I enjoy it. And, and as I said, I'm a, I'm a, you know, big ish fish in a small public radio pond, but my, my family and my kids and my wife are my whole life. The thing that's become clear to me as I've gotten older and as the kids have aged, right? My oldest is 25. My youngest is 16 is that it's work. It's work. It's so much work. And it's not the hard, exhausting work of when they were young and you had to entertain them and help them put their shoes on and make sure they had their backpacks for school and all of that.

43:03As they get older, and full credit for this goes to my wife, because when I was growing up and as I got older and left the house, I have a younger brother, but there were just the two of us. My parents very much intentionally I think, stayed out of my way and didn't try to, she's not going to listen to this, so I can say this. I don't think my mother's, my parents still alive. My father passed away. They did not try to actively be a part of my life. And as a result of that, 40 years after I left the house, you know, I keep in touch, but we don't have a strong family bond. My wife, on the other hand, came from a a close-knit family, close-knit extended family, they go out of their way for each other.

43:48And she has made me see, especially as the kids get older, that you have to put in the work. You have to put in the work. Don't helicopter parent and don't, you know, nag and this and that, but stay in touch, be in contact, be better. Because look, I was very present as a father and, you know, did the soccer dad and, you know, took red eyes to the East coast so I could be around more for them, you know, when I had to travel and all of that. But it takes work. And I don't think I, I didn't know that. I didn't. You strike me as, as someone who's very, I don't know, feeling, wants a real intimate, deep relationship with your kids and your partner.

44:33And yet it doesn't sound like you had that growing up. If, where did that sense of belonging and concern and care and intimacy, where did that come from? How did that develop? Look, I should be clear. I have a loving relationship with my mother. We're just not especially close. Um, uh, I, I, that's surprising. Like, I mean, everybody has an image of you on radio and that's may not may or may not be the real you. I would imagine someone like, I don't, I'm not especially close to my father. And it's because quite frankly, he didn't make much of an effort with me. And that encouraged me. I connected the dots or connected the non-connection of the dots pretty early and decided I didn't want that with my boys.

45:19I wanted them to feel very close to me. So I was going to make the investment. You know, that was hugely shaping for me. When you spend time with your sons, and you reflect on your past, what were the influences or kind of... um so i'm when my kids were younger i modeled myself after my dad my dad was very present in our lives growing up but he was you know he's norwegian raised in the lutheran church didn't talk much didn't share many feelings but he was there he was physically there so that was my model for when my older boys were younger you know by the time my my third son and our daughter came along, it was the older boys were older and, you know, you're doing different kinds of parentings for a 10 year old as, as you are with a one year old, you know, but as they became teenagers, the need to work at this became clear.

46:15And that came from my wife that came from my wife. And, you know, it's funny because my wife is also going to listen to this by the way. And I think, you know, she is the binding force in our family because of her upbringing and because of what she experienced as a young person. And now her interactions with her sisters and her mom and the extended family are super close. But it takes effort. You have to make the phone call. You have to get on the plane. You have to, you know, do all the events. And even when there aren't events, you just, you go, you know, and you say hi or whatever. So I will say that my guess would be, and it's not a guess, we've had this conversation.

46:58I am in my interactions with people. I'm very much like my father, right? I don't, unless I've got, interestingly, unless I've got a microphone in front of me, I don't share thoughts and feelings a lot. And I know that frustrates her. And I'm working on that. You know, we've been married 27 something years. But here's that word again. It's work. It's work, right? You got to work. any other thoughts on being a good partner? You got to talk more. You got to talk more. You got to. All right. So clearly this is Kai's therapy podcast and his family background. So when, when my, when I was a kid growing up and my dad, you know, we lived in suburban New York.

47:40We lived up in Westchester. My father got on the 605 train from, um, Scarborough, went down to Manhattan and took the train back in the evenings and was home about 615, 6.30, right? And my mother literally greeted him at the top of the basement stairs with a martini. But my father would come home and piss and moan about what had happened at the office and what terrible things boss did and this guy and blah, blah, blah. And I promised myself I was never going to be that because I didn't enjoy, you know, I was a kid, but it just, it was like, wow, dad, what are you doing? And as a result of that, I don't think I have in my adult life and with my wife, I really work at not pissing and moaning, but that's the wrong answer.

48:31Right. That's the wrong answer because then you shut down part of yourself or a conversation and that's not cool. That's not good. So we think a lot about masculinity or trying to shape of modern form of masculinity. And I'm blowing smoke a little bit here, but it's true. Serve your country. You're in great shape. I know you like to run, you know, good provider, you know, good family man, married for decades. Do you, do you have any thoughts about trying to, what masculinity means in a modern age and how we, how we shape a modern form of masculinity? So my dad, at some point, maybe I was 16 or 17, we were having a conversation about growing up and getting older and, you know, going out into the world.

49:20And he said, you know, Kai, sometimes you just have to be gentle. Just be gentle. And I think, you know, masculinity, as we all know, can be really toxic. And it can be dangerous and destructive. And if in a drive to improve American masculinity, we can all be, we men can be more gentle, right? There's something there. Kai Rizdahl is the host and senior editor of Marketplace, a popular American radio program that focuses on business economics and the financial markets where he's been since 2005. After graduating from college, Kai spent eight years in the United States Navy and later as a Pentagon staff officer.

50:11After earning his master's degree, Kai joined the U.S. Foreign Service, serving in Ottawa, Canada, and Beijing, China. He joins us from his home in La Cunada. Kai, I mean this sincerely, you're a role model, mostly because you have a very handsome voice. But I just am, I love your service. I love your fearlessness. I love how good at what you do are. I really appreciate your time. Thanks, God. I appreciate it.

50:42Algebra of happiness. Are you a friend of your friends or are you a benefactor? I was really moved by this story I read about kindness and generosity. And I went something like this. A mother in a very wealthy household used to, on a regular basis, ask neighbors who weren't as wealthy for flour or for salt. And the kid said, I don't get it. We have salt. We have eggs. Why are you doing this? I said, well, they ask us for help occasionally, and I like them to feel like we're friends, and it's a mutually beneficial relationship. So occasionally I lean on them for stuff such that they feel like there's some equivalence in the relationship.

51:17I thought that was so moving, and it was also really informative for me. I'm now at a point in my life where I have some influence, I have some money, and because I like to think of myself as strong and successful, I don't like to ask for anything with my friends. I love to give. Someone needs to borrow money. I'm down with that. Someone needs a ride somewhere. Someone needs help with something. Someone needs advice. Someone needs help with their kid, a letter of recommendation, whatever it is, time with their... I love, and I'm virtue signaling right now, I love to give. I am very uncomfortable asking people for help.

51:57Why? Why? Because I'm a bit arrogant. It's a manifestation of narcissism. It's a manifestation of being self-centered, of insecurity, always wanting to feel like you're the strong one or you're better than that person. And here's what a real friend does. A real friend, if they want an intimate, close relationship with someone, asks that person for help on a regular basis. Because this is what it comes down to. It comes down to a question. Amongst your friends, are you a friend or are you a benefactor? And that is, are you reticent to ask people for help? Do you not want equivalents in the relationship?

52:37Do you want to feel superior to them? Or do you want to be their friend? Because friends want to help each other. People don't want to feel like they're always leaning on you or they're always asking because you know what's going to happen? Eventually, they're going to stop asking and they're going to feel less close to you. Good friends lean on each other. They ask each other for help. They ask each other for advice. So are you one of the blessed people that's aggregated a certain amount of emotional, psychological, economic security, and people come to you for help? Do you want to be friends with that person?

53:07Then go out of your way to ask them for help. They want to know that you need them. They become invested in your success, and you become more intimate. You become stronger friends. and I'm going to do this because I read this thing and I realized I'm not being people's friends. I'm being their benefactor because I want to feel strong and superior. And that's bullshit. I shouldn't be living that way. I should be a friend of them. I should be a friend of them. And when I need advice and when I could use help and there's so many things I don't know how to do or I don't know how to handle, you can't imagine how much it means to people when you reach out and you ask them for help.

53:43When you reach out to someone and you ask them for help, what you're saying is, I think you're impressive. I care about you and I trust you and I need your help. Reach out to people. Ask for help. Be a friend, not a benefactor. This episode was produced by Caroline Shagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to The Property Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn, and on Monday with our weekly market show. Support for this show comes from Nordstrom.

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