The Making of The White Lotus, Scott’s Surprise Cameo, and Hollywood’s Shifting Landscape — with David Bernad

24:23Because, you know, as a producer, I live in Los Angeles, this is where my family is, this is where my friends are. I want to be in Los Angeles. So I'm not incentivized to leave. But if Netflix or Paramount or Sony or HBO comes to me and they say, you have$10 million to make this movie or show, and I'm looking at the math, and I can get 15 extra days if I go to Toronto, and I can pay more for cast or pay more for directors if I go to Vancouver, it's an easy decision, to be honest. Even though it makes my life harder, it's not something I want to do. And so it is so much easier to make movies and shows in Los Angeles, full stop.

25:04But until we solve the production tax credit issue, I think this will always be a conversation. Yeah, both cities you mentioned, you mentioned two cities in Canada. Is Canada, is that your go-to if you're talking about talent versus economics or stack rank it? What do you think of the most popular places on a risk-adjusted basis when you look at costs versus access to talent and beautiful locales? I've been fortunate. I've shot in every tax. I've shot Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta, New Orleans, or Louisiana. Like, I've shot in every one of these prominent rebate cities. You know, the thing as a producer, what you're weighing is, you know, there's always weather.

25:44Weather is always a concern and an issue. And each of these cities have different challenges. You know, Los Angeles, again, is the beauty of LA is, give or take, maybe a month or two, you're going to get great weather. But then you're also looking at local crew, local casting. And does that city have, you know, a crew base and a talent actor base for, you know, for these smaller parts that it makes it worthwhile to shoot there? You know, I'm doing a movie for Netflix this summer. We're going to be shooting in New York, New Jersey. There's a really prominent rebate there. um now in new jersey i know a lot of productions are going there and so that for me would be number one um i've had a lot of success in atlanta and in new orleans louisiana i think those are both really great cities to be honest my favorite city i've shot in and i've shot a movie there and the tv show there is montreal crew's amazing montreal is the best city in north america great great food great nightlife and so montreal is actually a really it's funny because i Mike White and I shot a movie there, Brad Status, a Ben Stiller movie, which I think you would love, Scott.

26:49And I've since told a lot of friends to go shoot productions there. And it's a really, they have a great tax credit, great crew, great local actors and great lifestyle. Second thesis, that the opacity of information when you run something on Netflix, you don't know how, other than them renewing the season, you don't really know how well it's doing. Jennifer Aniston's agent knew that Friends was the anchor to the Thursday night and could kind of reverse engineer to how much ad revenue they're making and had the confidence to go ask for a million dollars per episode per cast member. And now that you really don't know what's working and what isn't, it's essentially what I perceive is a giant flow of capital from the industry, from the human capital to the shareholders of Netflix.

27:38Am I oversimplifying what's going on there? I have a controversial take on this, because this is an issue that I've debated a lot. And I've been on all sides of this. So I had a show on NBC called Superstore, and I knew the numbers. We did 113 episodes. It's the most successful sitcom on NBC in the last 15 years, 20 years. And I knew all the numbers, and we would renegotiate every two years, whatever it was. And I wouldn't say that we won the negotiations. right i did a show for amazon called jury duty did not know any of the numbers we're not told a single number and when we renegotiated i would i would i feel like i won that negotiation and to me it's it boils down to as as a you know a seller of products in the supply and demand world of hollywood you don't even need to know the numbers because you can feel the numbers when you negotiate.

28:36And ultimately, the success of a movie or show, in my opinion, having that information doesn't really, has not benefited me in my anecdotal experience. The energy from the buyer will dictate how well your show did. Because I saw the numbers on Superstore and I thought it did amazing, but what I discovered in my negotiations is it wasn't profitable for them. And it still isn't profitable, I'm being told. And that's a different conversation to the funky number, you know, the funky economics of studio accounting, but you can feel the energy in a negotiation when on the other side, if your show was working or not.

29:15And so without knowing any of my jury duty numbers, I know the show worked by the nature of the negotiation and how bad they wanted that show for a second season. That's my opinion. And I know that might seem ignorant, but again, like having information has never really benefited me. In White Lotus too, In our renegotiation season to season, we don't have the full scope of that show's numbers, but I know it's done well by the nature of HBO's desire and demand for us to do another season. We'll be right back.

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32:01take yourself back 22 years if you and you had the knowledge of knowing where this business is going to be today or if someone's starting out in the business any kind of macro thoughts on their career that this part of the business is going to be the easiest place to find employment this is the medium the size of the screen any advice to a you know a 22 year old Dave starting in this business? What, what do you see as the major themes and how does someone foot their efforts to trying to take advantage of those themes in the industry? Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. And I, I, you know, I do a lot of coffees and zooms with people and my advice to anyone starting in the business would be if there's anything else on earth you can do, I would go do that.

32:44So, so your general advice is don't. Yeah. That would be my advice. Like, cause I think this is a, it's in, and you talk about a lot about this, I know, and it's an incredibly difficult business. And I think making a living in this business has gotten harder and harder for whatever reason. And I think that I, this is something that I wake up every day and I live it. I breathe it. It's something I love and I feel incredibly fortunate to be doing. And I can't imagine doing anything else on earth. And unless you have that kind of energy and passion for creating content, I would go do something else.

33:19And I look back and I like, you know, think about my personal journey and I don't even, there's no straight line to it. It's just a series of decisions that I made in the moment that somehow worked out. And I think there was a, you know, and again, there's an incredible amount of rejection and nose and closed doors on my journey. And I remember people would say to me, oh, you're so lucky. And I would think to myself, well, you, maybe, but you also haven't seen the insane amount of hours and dedication and sacrifice I put into this in my 20s and 30s to get to this level. And still, you know, something like White Lotus happened as a result of COVID and a bunch of series of fortunate events that led to White Lotus.

34:03And so it's not like there's no straight line and there's no advice I can give other than go do something else unless you are willing to kind of sacrifice your, you know, 70s a week and most of your life to this business. And, you know, I was reading an article yesterday. there was some, you know, some article with this like, you know, 35 year old podcaster that created a network about true crime that she's, you know, clearing like 40 million in profit every year. And I found myself thinking about like, uh, I'd given myself like advice on my younger self. I'd be like, get into pod, you know, you're in, you know, but I'm like, get into some, some other new media business.

34:43Cause the, you know, it's making film and TV is really challenging, really heartbreaking, and again, just difficult to make a living. And I'm saying this as someone who's incredibly fortunate and who's doing it. And that would be my advice. A little cynical and a little bleep, but it's true. What have you worked on that surprised you most of the upside or the downside in terms of its commercial success? Like what did you think was going to be bigger than it was? And what was bigger than you thought it might be? I mean, jury duty is a good example, and I don't know if you've seen it, but it's an interesting anecdote.

35:18It originated just, I was watching a Netflix documentary on a couch, had a kernel of an idea, called a producer friend. It's about 2017, 2018. We started talking about it. We kind of came up with this concept, brought it to writers. It was a long journey. When we went out and pitched it, basically everyone passed except for this woman, Lauren Anderson, who was taking over a segment of Amazon. At that point, it was called IMDb TV. They rebranded to Freebie. So, you know, Amazon proper had passed on it. It didn't fit their algorithm or whatever their calculus was. And we just so happened to have perfect timing with this woman, Lauren Anderson, who basically invested in us and bet on us.

36:02It was a crazy concept. It was a verbal pitch, 10 minutes. And they gave us, you know, a healthy amount of money to make a very experimental show. and you know when the show launched no one watched it and they've got bad reviews and didn't it didn't really work and then over a weekend someone on tiktok posted about it and all of a sudden it just became this hit and it moved from freebie to amazon proper and then was a hit on amazon and so it was i still don't know why it worked and maybe people just maybe it was so original and and but But it kind of came out of nowhere. And that one surprised me the most.

36:43I think, you know, I did a show called White House Plumbers with Woody Harrelson. Fantastic. And Justin, yeah. And that one was a surprise. I think when that came out, I think we just kind of, it came out too late. I think that one was delayed because of COVID. And I'm really proud of that show. And I think by the time it came out, people were over, you know, nonfiction, historical nonfiction. and I feel like oversaturized with political dramas. And that one I feel like should have worked better than it did. And I'm still very proud of it. And that one, that was when I also worked on for 10 years before it was made.

37:22And that one was really personal to me. And I wish I had done better. But again, there's no rhyme or reason. You can't really time it. And that's why it's a tough business. You can't really, all you can do is control what you make and whether audiences find it or not is so out of your control and really comes down to a lot of times timing in the universe. As my listeners will know, I bring on guests mostly to talk about me. So let's bring this back to me. So I met David through a mutual friend, Ben Stiller. You've been friends with him for several decades. I've only been friends with Ben for a couple of years.

37:57And we hit it off and you reached out to me and said, is there any way I could talk you into doing a small cameo in the White Lotus? And my first response was, well, how much would that cost me? And so I'm super excited. David was generous enough to include me in a small role where I'm, well, you explain it. Who am I, David? I want to say one thing. Your podcasts, both of them are, you know, if my Spotify rap, it's number one, both your podcasts. And if I had to define my personality or someone asked me, who kind of encapsulates your personality and point of view in the world? It's Scott Galloway.

38:37And so that dinner with Ben was a, for me, meeting my number one celebrity crush. And I have a text thread with six of my guy friends and we've been texting every day for 15 years, I want to say. And it is the embodiment of male friendship. It's everything. It's every concept, but you are a frequent point of conversation. And this is the ultimate compliment. I think we use your, we will reference you or use one of your articles or something you said on one of the podcasts to prove a point. And so just that you are, you are my friends, my friend, Neil Paris, Joe Port, Neil Shalik, these guys, we talk about you every day probably.

39:18So meeting you was a big, big thrill for me. Getting to, you know, developing a friendship with you has been a big thrill. And so we were casting a part for a lawyer. And we needed someone that, you know, was kind of, could deliver emotionless, very just to-the-point dialogue. And so we were on set and I said to Mike, I'm like, what about Scott Calloway? And Mike's a huge fan of yours also. And so, you know, I was thrilled when you said yes. I was nervous that maybe he wouldn't be able to deliver. and so if you don't mind i'll tell you the story so we were in i was in kosamui you sent me the first your first recordings i listened to it i almost shit my pants because i was like i don't know if there's socks there's socks i don't know if this is gonna fly and i think i had then i heard you mention it on on i think on pivot and so i was extra nervous that i was gonna somehow to disappoint you.

40:18I did not want to disappoint you. And so I called you. I think I got, maybe I was back in LA or I might've been still in Thailand. And I called you and I said, would you mind possibly re-recording? You know, I was trying to be subtle about it. I didn't want you to think that I was nervous. You were so managing me. You're like, it's great, but we think it can be better. I sent it to the editor. The editor was like, I don't know if this is going to work. and then I was like, I had the, you know, I will give myself credit. I had the smart idea of sending Jason Isaacs over to your apartment. Just, you know, I was like, maybe Jason can help you read with you.

40:57And I remember I was like very anxious. I was like, Jason, call me as soon as you get out of there. Jason called me and he goes, we did an hour of takes. It could be all dog shit. Maybe there's something in there. And I have to say, genuinely, you are great in the show. in that in those hour of recordings we found gold and as soon as mike heard it he loved it honestly like it was it was like okay this is great i know mike told me he wrote you so you so you know i'm not full of shit and and i will be honest like in all my text thread i was like keeping everyone updated i'm like we might have to cut skull from the show i'm freaking out i love that i love that talk about it too and so i was really nervous but i'm glad it worked out and i I'm hoping this is the beginning of a long Hollywood career for you.

41:45And when you win an Emmy, you have to thank me on stage. That's all I ask. Well, you don't know this. I've had five TV shows already, Dave. They've all been canceled within two or three weeks. So I have a face for podcasting. But I'll give you my side of the story. I thought I did an amazing job. And I sent it to you. And you were very supportive. And I remember telling my ticket here, oh, my God, I killed it. I was so good. And then I got the message from you saying, we think we can do better. and this handsome guy shows up to my apartment with movie star good looks. I didn't know who Jason Isaac was.

42:14I didn't put the two and two together. I'm like, dude, you're the guy from The Patriot. And he's actually one of these very accomplished British actors. And by the way, I think in The White Lotus, the first two episodes, I think he kind of owns the screen whenever he's on it. I think Parker is amazing because he's just so quirky. But I think Jason kind of owns the screen whenever he's on it. But anyways, he came over. He was on his way to a tennis lesson, this like handsome guy. And he's like, I'm here to help. And we went into my studio. And for an hour, I'd hit a line and he'd go like, okay, this is the situation.

42:46I'm about to fire you. And you don't know what to say. And you're a little scared. Hit the line. And then he'd be like, no, hit it again. Dial it up. And I walked away. Or he would say to me, this guy's such an asshole. And you just found out. He's like, okay, that's good. But now this guy's such an asshole. And you just found out he's having an affair with your wife. He's like, let it sink in. Let it sink in. Now hit it. and he made me do this over and over with different situations and different emotions and different feelings. And I walked away from that hour with such an appreciation for just how fucking hard it is what you do.

43:20Because I thought, oh, I've been in boardrooms. I know how to own a room. I know how to deliver something unemotionally. That's not it. That's not enough in Hollywood to really get across the board. There's so much more that goes into it. and people don't appreciate just how fucking difficult it is to bring out the emotions and the resonance and the logic and move an audience. And I'm not saying that scene was able to do it, but you're able to do it, and so are other creatives. And when this guy walked out of my house, my tech guy was there, Drew, and he's on the line now. And I remember saying to Drew, I'm not sure, but I think that guy just turned chicken shit into chicken salad.

44:02it. And he was so good. This is an actor. I'm not sure he's even directed before, but he was in my face, sweating, burning calories, giving me weird, strange advice to try and get my voice up, down, try and put me in the right frame. And I remember thinking what these people do, whatever they're making, they're not making enough because what this is, is hard. And it It was such an illuminating experience for me. So thank you for that. It gave me a new appreciation for the art form because I think a lot of people think that acting is just like showing up and being who you are. Oh my God, it's not.

44:41It was one of the most difficult taxing hours I've ever had. It was really, I can't imagine what it's like to be on set and have all this alchemy and it's not working. And then to try to coach people through it. It's got to be, you know, you are juggling, I would think, just a ton of plates, except the plates are actors, directors, cinematographers. It must just be incredibly difficult. Your thoughts, David? Imagine that experience with 200 people looking at you and, you know, the stress of a schedule, trying to get to the scene, losing light and all of that. and for actors to be able to perform on set under that pressure and deliver great performances, it is a true talent and is not easy.

45:27But, you know, it's funny, Jason Isaacs is an incredibly accomplished guy and he loves acting. I think he took so much pleasure in that hour he spent with you. I think he like really, he's the kind of guy who would talk about acting and would be acting 24 hours a day if someone would pay him or he would do it for free, honestly, but yeah, I've, you know, I make little cameos in most of the stuff I do. And I pop up in White Lotus. And every time I'm on set and I'm in a scene and I don't have any dialogue, usually it's kind of, you know, I'm doing some sort of action. I'm like, thank fucking God I don't want to be an actor because it is a hard, hard job to kind of, and also to give yourself to a camera and be that vulnerable.

46:10But, you know, it also speaks to how talented directors are to be able to manage that, you know, So, you know, everyone has an ego, right? And so you're basically going up to someone and going, that was kind of shitty. Can you do it a different way? Or your instincts are off, do it my way. And how do you deliver that in a way that doesn't offend them and, you know, get what you want out of the actor? But yeah, it's a, it's tough. It's all, it's a tough business. And again, it speaks to, you know, great performances are not easy to come by. So just as we wrap up here, a lot of young men listen to the show and they hear someone successful like you and they think, I'd like to be that guy.

46:48Can you talk a little bit about growing up who were really the big influences in your life, people or kind of situations that sort of changed your life? Yeah, I mean, this is something that I, you know, I really love about your work and what you talk about and something that really resonates with me. And, you know, my parents are both Hungarian immigrants and my grandparents are all Holocaust survivors. And, you know, my father is someone who, you know, he didn't speak the language when he immigrated from Budapest. She ended up in Montreal and eventually in America. But he's someone, my grandfather made sure my father, you know, really learned what work ethic is and an appreciation for work.

47:25And that's something my father instilled in me. And he was probably my first mentor, but I had a English teacher and a basketball coach named Mike Hibbs who changed my life and introduced me to storytelling. And it was so tough on me from a place of love and a place that really responded. So when I started at UTA and I was in the mailroom, nothing was ever going to be as difficult and challenging as my basketball coach and English teacher and how he pushed me. And that mail mentorship really changed my life. And I told my English teacher, Mike Hibbs, when I was in high school that I was one day going to fly him out to a premiere when I make my first movie.

48:04and I flew him out for the White Lotus premiere two weeks ago. And it was almost 30 years to when I told him I would do that. And having him there was so moving for me. I think moving for him and, you know, he's someone who's dedicated his life to mentoring young men, whether it's on the basketball court or in the English class. And I think for me, I wanted him to see what his mentorship meant to me and what I was able to accomplish. And I feel very fortunate I have that relationship. And you talk a lot about this. And even my text thread, I was referencing my six buddies. We push each other every day.

48:41And those friendships really ground you and they keep you humble, but they also push you in a way. And I would say that's really why I'm here today, honestly, talking to you, were those relationships. And whenever I've known you for that long, but it seems like you're always in like eight time zones away. How do you, and I know very little about your personal life, how do you, and maybe you don't, how do you establish any sort of momentum or attraction in a relationship? I don't. I mean, I'm single. I'm 44. And, you know, that's a part of my life I feel like I've sacrificed to kind of get to where I am currently.

49:22And I've tried to maintain those relationships, but part of being a producer and part of being a producer is actually there doing the work, it almost becomes all encompassing. So it's hard at night to give yourself emotionally or in the morning before work, because you're either your tank is at zero or you're distracted. And that's something that, you know, I've, that's something that I haven't figured out also in my life and how to find that balance and something that I'm, you know, I need to work on and be better at because, you know, and it's, and, you know, I have another really great mentor, one of the partners at CAA, who right before I went to go do White Lotus season three, said to me, he sent me an email and he said, you know, I really, I'd love for you to come by CAA and see me before you leave.

50:08And I thought he was gonna talk about some work stuff. And I went to his office and he said, um, you know, I don't want to talk about work. You're doing great. And I'm really proud of you. What I want to talk about is your personal life. And the fact, I don't want you to end up like me and how can we change that part of your life? And he, He, you know, and he took an interest and that's, you know, that really meant a lot to me. And it's something that I've been thinking about. And how do I, how do I find that balance? And that's something I haven't figured out yet. And what do you do for sort of meditation or relaxation or just to stay kind of centered, given the amount of anxiety and insecurity in your industry?

50:43I mean, I'm not just, I listen to Pivot. I'm not kidding. I'm not joking. That's what everybody needs. I'm not joking. Like, I'm not kidding when I say, you know, all my downtime, every flight, you kind of narrated my experience in Thailand. You know, I must have been on 45 flights last year, you know, in and out of Thailand. And I would listen to Prof G or your pivot. I mean, I, for me, you know, I watch a lot of reality TV, to be honest, and listen to podcasts. and, you know, finding a good hobby or getting into meditation, something I need to also figure out. I have a lot of work to do on myself is basically what I'm learning from this conversation.

51:22But I haven't found that thing yet that helps me fully disconnect. Because, you know, even listening to Pivot or listening to, you know, that to me is partly is that work. I basically have taken a lot of good stock advice from you. You've made me some good money, so I owe you a dinner next time I see you. I think I owe you. When my kids hear me in the White Lotus, I owe you. I haven't told them. I can't tell you how excited I haven't told them. We're going to watch it. It's going to be, you have brought, you are going to bring so much credibility to me amongst my 14 and 17 year olds. So I owe you.

51:58A couple, just a couple more serious questions before we go. Anyone in your life you lost or that's not around that you wish you could say something to? Yeah, when I was working at UTA, and I was an assistant. And that was one of the best experiences of my life, going from the mailroom, working for a partner, David Kramer, there, who also was a huge mentor. Like, he was a huge mentor in my life. And he would, every Monday morning, I'd come in and he'd say, how many scripts did you read this weekend? And if I, you know, and I would say six, he goes, that's not good enough. Eight, that's not good enough.

52:30So he really pushed me, my work ethic. And I met this young assistant named James Caplan, James Caplan, who was working for these directors, dated in Ferris, and we struck up a really amazing friendship. And he helped me find the strength to leave UTA and go kind of really pursue my creative dreams. And we were starting a company and we, we'd actually sold our first project. We were negotiating a producing deal together. And, you know, we, he died suddenly. He had a brain aneurysm at 28 and he collapsed and I rushed to UCLA hospital. I was there at his bedside and he passed away and he had just gotten married.

53:11He just directed his first commercial. And again, we had just sold our first project. And, you know, I dedicate every movie and show I do. I put him in the dedication and I think about him every day. And for me, I don't think I'd be, I definitely want to be where I'm at now without him and that relationship. And we talked every day and we were such a great sounding board and it was such a huge loss. And so, you know, I wish he was here to kind of see what I've been able to accomplish and for me to tell him I love him and how much he meant to me and how much, you know, his support as a friend, you know, during some tough times and in my 20s really, really helped me.

53:48And last thing, anybody, and this can be serious, not serious, you'd just love to give a shout out to and have them be surprised that if and when they hear about this, you just are thinking of just something, someone you're thinking about and anything you'd like to say to them and it'll get back to them. Yeah, I mean, Neil Paris, it's really my group of friends because we talk about you every day. Neil Paris, Neil Shaw, Joe Port, Ravi Patel, Evan Winokur, Mayar Seti, that's my text thread. Like I told you, you come up almost daily, and I think they were the first people I told that I was coming on the show.

54:25I think there's probably a, you know, like in every great group of male friends, they're probably jealous, they're competitive, but also proud of me. And so I think I'm really, yeah, I think. And also each of them are like, you better shout us out on the podcast. Well, box checked. David Bernad is the Emmy-winning executive producer for HBO's The White Lotus. He's also known for producing Uncharted, Jury Duty, Enlightened, and, and I didn't know this, White House Plumber. He joins us from Los Angeles. David, you are so far ahead of where I was. I didn't appreciate just how precious and wonderful it is to have to kind of the friend group you have.

55:06And what you're going to find is that you are the average and there's signs of this, of those five guys. And so you guys building and loving each other, it just, it's, it's, it's, it's not only incredibly rewarding. It's a smart thing to do because you guys will progress and you'll fall together. And I'm telling you in 15 years, you're going to look back hopefully on your kids and your career and you're going to feel great. but it almost means nothing. It's almost as if it doesn't happen without that text group. And you're just a great example. Just so happy for your success and that you found you have your like tribe of people to share it with.

55:42Thanks so much, David. And again, thanks for the opportunity. This was such a treat for me. Thank you, Scott.

56:00algebra of happiness when you're overwhelmed with information overload how do you respond this isn't about stress management it's about how to if you're in an organization and you just have so much information and different different touch points or you are barraged with information that you find is like outrageous or there's too many things going on i'm obviously speaking about what's going on across our government right now and i think it's a purposeful strategy to sort of blitzkrieg you with information such that you don't focus on their true objectives or what's really important. And it's easy to feel kind of flat-footed in how do you strike back.

56:37And I, for about a week, just felt sort of overwhelmed and didn't know what to do. And I don't like the idea of being offended and outraged and responding to everything. And I think there's just some basics around communication and responding effectively when people are kind of in your face or things are happening at work that you feel overloaded by because there's so many things that upset you. And the first is to respond in a thoughtful way and recognize you don't need to respond to everything. You need to prioritize. At the end of the day, what's really important here? There might be things that are outrageous.

57:09The most recent one is I've heard the Trump administration is thinking about advocating for or pardoning Andrew Tate. Yeah, that's outrageous. Who the fuck cares what some loser in Romania that was, you know, spending time sex trafficking or in a webcam business and trying to sign up vulnerable young men to his crypto. Who the fuck cares? But that's look over here. That's not important. You don't have to respond to everything. Take a beat. You don't have to respond immediately to everything and shout into Twitter or into TikTok. That's not, the world doesn't need to hear from you on everything.

57:48And then bring, when you do respond, one, bring, pick one or two issues that you feel especially strongly about that you think deserve priority and that you, one, have some domain expertise in and also bring in outside experts and facts and try and be very thoughtful and methodical and unemotional. If you can be offended, you can be manipulated. And when you're offended all the fucking time, it just shows, quite frankly, you're a little bit weak and a little bit easily manipulated. This is how you effectively counterpunch. Because keep in mind, a lot of people will try and overwhelm you. You know when you get in an argument with your spouse and they're losing and they immediately start bringing up something else?

58:25Okay, don't go there. Don't go there. Or they try and gaslight you with something else. Be disciplined. Be an adult. Be a warrior around this stuff. That is, slow down. You don't need to respond to everything. Pick the one or two issues that are most important to you. Come with data. Come with experts. Be reasoned. Be thoughtful. This is information warfare, right? This is storytelling versus storytelling. You don't have to respond to anything. And if you can figure out a way not to be offended by everything, that means you are a mark. You are what they want. You are easily manipulated.

59:04This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez. Our intern is Dan Chalon. Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prof G Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

59:48leaders ready to hit the gas on innovation. Time's running out. Claim one of the last few spots at daily.com slash VA25 before the checkered flag waves.