The State of the World — with Ian Bremmer

26:49And that is going to lead to more displacement and also reduce morale on the part of the Ukrainians. Russia's also in the last couple of months done unprecedented damage to Ukraine's critical energy infrastructure as winter approaches. And that's going to make it a much harder winter for the average Ukrainian. Only about 40 million people live in Ukraine right now. There was over 50 million before the war. And those numbers, I suspect, are going to continue to go down over the next several months. You refer China's, quote unquote, managed decline. That's your term. And I like it. What do you mean by that?

27:32Well, I'm talking in part about the relationship between China and the United States that, I mean, we are heading towards confrontation, but both countries are trying to avoid sudden crises and ensure through a lot of high level communication that the relationship doesn't deteriorate any faster than it needs to and any more broadly than it needs to. The Americans are doing that, I think, in part because we've got our hands full with a couple of different wars and an election cycle. The Chinese are doing that because their economy is performing worse than I've ever seen it, certainly since the early 90s, maybe since the 70s.

28:19I was just in Beijing a couple of weeks ago. I spent the week there. And every provincial government is bankrupt. and real estate is in crisis. That is 70 % of Chinese consumer wealth and about 30 % of Chinese government revenue. And they're not gonna come close to their 5 % growth target this year. This is a new Chinese economic leadership put in place by Xi Jinping. They are suddenly telling the president, we're not gonna be able to perform like we told you we were. not a good place to be on your first year. And that's also the 75th anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party. So there was a lot of panic going on among the top economists a couple of weeks ago in China.

29:11And that's why they're all trying to run around and say, what do we do? What kind of stimulus do we put in place? It was it was the it's the same kind of transition that we saw when they went from zero COVID to suddenly overnight, we're just going to rip up the QR codes and everyone can do what they want. Remember, Scott, you know, for a year, a solid year, this was Chinese officials crowing internationally about how they cared about their people. And the Americans didn't, the Europeans didn't, the Japanese didn't. We didn't take care of our citizens. We let them get sick and die. And the Chinese were the one country that really cared.

29:47And they literally ripped that up overnight, overnight. It was as if they had nothing to do with zero COVID. So the Chinese leadership got it wrong. They didn't get good information. And now for the second time in only a few years, we're seeing the same thing. The Chinese leadership thought they had like a decent control on their economy, thought it was just incremental challenges that they'd be able to effectively respond to this year. Nothing major required. and then suddenly, almost overnight, realizing that isn't the case at all. It really is striking. It's like, you know, humans are adaptable and it's been so incremental.

30:26But the changes I think about it, pre-COVID, call it late teens. I was in China two, three times a year doing business, advising American companies on their efforts in China, advising some Chinese companies on their efforts in America. And I have not been to China in four or five years and have no plans to go back. And I realize that's pulse marketing. But as I think about, I mean, the freeze is pretty deep here. Would you agree with that? Yes. And you see it across the corporate community. Now, if you are a big Western multinational with exposure in China, you don't want to make announcements that you are making layoffs.

31:11You don't want to make announcements you're taking money out because, you know, that will that will get you punished by the Chinese. But quietly, everyone is trying to reduce exposure. The only part of the Chinese economy right now that is actually performing and keeping their numbers up is the manufacturing sector. And it's manufacturing without consumer demand. So there's massive overproduction right now. And that's leading. That's not politically sustainable in other parts of the world. It's causing backlash, you know, complaints of dumping, all of this sort of thing. And it's making the relationship between China and other countries more confrontational.

31:50So they're really in a corner here. They're going to need structural reform. It's essentially a major financial crisis. And in fact, the one thing that I was quite surprised by when I was in China was just how much violent crime there is right now. A lot of people talking about, you know, stabbings and people driving their car into crowds and high profile suicides and some that got public notoriety and then immediately taken down off of WeChat and some just people talking about things happening in their own neighborhoods, happening on their own street corners, that sort of thing. Now, I mean, if this was happening in any normal country around the world and by normal, I mean a country that you get reporting out of information out of, it's all we'd be talking about.

32:38But because it's China and because very few people go to China right now. I mean, there just is nowhere near the level of travel that you saw pre-COVID. And because the Chinese don't actually report on any of this stuff, we're not really talking about it. And I think that's a really big deal.

33:03Lowe's knows how to help make your home holiday ready for less. Get Select Style selections, vinyl flooring for just$1.99 per square foot, and have it installed before the festivities begin. Our team can help you every step of the way. See a Lowe's Red Vest Associate or visit lowes.com slash holiday install to get started. Lowe's, we help you save. Basic install only. Date restrictions apply. Subject to availability. Install by independent contractors. See associate for details. Contiguous U.S. only. Hey, business owners. We know you know the importance of maximizing every dollar with the delta sky miles reserve business american express card you can make your expenses work just as hard as you from afternoon coffee runs to stocking office supplies and even team dinners you can earn miles on all your business expenses plus you can earn 125 000 bonus miles for a limited time through october 29th the delta sky miles reserve business card if you travel you know minimum spending requirements and terms apply Offer ends October 29, 2025.

34:05Ford Blue Cruise hands-free highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in Blue Cruise-enabled vehicles like the F-150, Explorer, and Mustang Mach-E. Available feature on equipped vehicles. Terms apply. does not replace safe driving. See Ford.com slash Blue Cruise for more details.

34:36So as a means of beginning to talk about the U.S. election, what I'd like to do, Ian, is I'd like to go through all three of these, the war in the Middle East, the war in Ukraine, and the impact of China's managed decline. And do for us some scenario planning. How do each of those play out differently in a Harris or a Trump administration? Let's start with the war in the Middle East. Okay. So Biden has been one of the most strongly pro-Israel candidates we've ever seen, presidents. And it is unclear that Harris would significantly alter that. She's made, you know, repeated statements that the alliance between the U.S.

35:25and Israel is sacrosanct and the U.S. will do everything to defend Israel. She clearly is much more concerned about the Palestinians, about their ability to self-govern, about getting them humanitarian aid. I think some of that is because of the changing demographics of the United States on Israel-Palestine, young people in particular being much less motivated by a pro-Israel policy, much more sympathetic to the Palestinians. And some of it is that as a lawyer, she's just generally more interested in rule of law and international norms and feels like the Americans are supporting a policy that undermines that and that undermines U.S.

36:08influence around the world. So I do suspect that under Harris, U.S. policy on Israel, Palestine would be more aligned with the Europeans than it is right now, where with Trump. I mean, actually, if anything, he is a little more hawkish than even Biden. He would he certainly has is I mean, he's indifferent to what happens to the Palestinians. He says he no longer supports a two-state solution, though he did when he put together the Abraham Accords. And he was the guy that, of course, recognized the Golan Heights as Israeli territory. He moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He has no problem with further illegal settlements of Israel on the ground in the West Bank.

37:00I suspect that he would be fine with a more assertive and expansionist Israeli military strategy in the region, including against Iran's nuclear capabilities, which he might be inclined to help Israel with. So there's a little bit of a difference there, but it's not it's not dramatic in my view. Russia, Ukraine. Russia, Ukraine is much more different now. Both Harris and Trump would want the war to end, but their modalities would be very different. Trump is much more of a unilateralist. He's not interested in coordinating with the Europeans at all. He would call Zelensky and call Putin and basically say, you're going to end this war.

37:48You're going to accept a ceasefire, territorial delineation where it is right now or else. What's the or else with the Ukrainians or else we cut off support with the Russians or else we sanction you a lot tougher? And would he follow through on that? Would the Ukrainians and the Russians listen to him? Interesting question. Certainly a better deal for the Russians than they're getting presently or then they'd get under Harris. But that doesn't mean that Putin would find it acceptable. There's a big difference between, you know, Trump's rhetoric with Russia in his 2017 presidency and actual policy towards Russia, which was harder line, the Javelin anti-tank missiles to Ukraine, tougher sanctions than it was under Obama.

38:34So I think that there's what was clear is if Trump became president again, the Europeans would feel very much cut loose from this process. And that would be that'd be a crisis for Europe. If Harris comes in, she would want to coordinate a policy towards Ukraine that would lead to a ceasefire, but she would coordinate that with NATO and then take that joint policy with the Ukrainians if she could make it happen and try to get everyone to force Russia to the table. Would that work or would that just be a continued drip, drip, drip as the Russians continue to fight? Very interesting question. Hard to know.

39:18But I mean, certainly Biden's policy, Russia, Ukraine has been great in keeping the alliance together. Hasn't been so great for the Ukrainians long term. And then if you want to go to China, Jake Sullivan, the national security advisor, went to Beijing a few weeks ago, spent 14 hours with Wang Yi, the foreign minister. than he spent an hour and a half with Xi Jinping. And the purpose of that trip was to ensure a stable transition in policy if Harris becomes the president. I spent an hour and a half with Wang Yi when I was there a couple of weeks ago. He told me he was very appreciative of the effort that Jake and the Biden administration have put into the relationship, the time, the communications and the rest.

40:05So I think that if Kamala were to become president, I think that U.S.-China policy would remain very consistent with where it is right now. Trump, of course, sees China policy and sees much foreign policy through a more economic and transactional lens through the lens of tariffs. He has talked about a 60 percent across the board tariff on Chinese exports. Six months ago, 12 months ago, China wasn't sure if they would prefer Harris or Trump. Trump might be someone they could do a deal with. Trump also will antagonize a bunch of allies, creates more flexibility for the Chinese, potentially. This trip, everyone in China says we want Harris.

40:49Why? Because the state of their economy means they can't handle the uncertainty. So another thesis, I find that Americans, because of our prosperity and our blessings and the fact that we really haven't been attacked, I mean, you could say 9-11 was an attack, but domestically, the homeland has been pretty kind of attack or threat-free, that as a result, we always believe that all peace is a good peace. And I would put forward that there is a bad peace and there are good wars. And what's happening in the Middle East over the mid and long term might be seen in retrospect as having been a good war, where we end up with stronger alliances in the Middle East and what might end up being a sustained peace.

41:33Your thoughts? Well, first, more broadly, I agree with the thesis that there are good wars. There aren't many of them, but there certainly are. World War II was a good war. The Americans took way too long to enter it and to fight it, and we almost lost as a consequence, but it was a good war. We needed to win that war. We needed to enter that war. The first Iraq war and defending Kuwait was a good war, in my view, and one that we needed to enter. And I think the Ukraine war, which we are partially responsible for because we told the Ukrainians we were going to bring them into NATO and then we didn't.

42:09And when the Russians invaded in 2014 a little bit, we did nothing. And basically a blinking yellow light. We're finally late defending Ukraine. I think that's a good war. Israel, Palestine, Lebanon is more complicated for me for a couple of reasons. First, the United States is losing a lot of influence around the world as a consequence of supporting Israel in a full throated way, in an undifferentiated way, which is virtually isolated compared to other countries. You see, I mean, at the Security Council, the Americans making vetoes that even the allies of the U.S. won't stand up for, the French, the Brits, for example.

42:56The fact that in countries across, say, Southeast Asia, the Americans are losing influence dramatically. Indonesia is the largest Muslim population in the world of any country, and the Indonesians were strongly pro-U.S. and anti-China 10 years ago. That has now flipped, and it's flipped almost completely because of Gaza, which is considered to be a domestic issue by the Indonesian population and the government. Malaysia also flipped. Brunei, who cares? But still, same thing. Singapore, a little bit. So there are places that the U.S. is definitely losing influence because of that. Now, having said that, Scott, I agree with you that there are the Israelis and the Gulf states are aligned here and they're becoming more aligned irrespective of the Saudis saying that they need a Palestinian state to do a deal to break to get to finally open relations with Israel.

43:59Generally speaking, Israel is in a strong position vis-a-vis the Gulf states and also in terms of its own defense and military capabilities. Now, what we don't know, and even leaving aside any humanitarian concern for the two plus million Palestinians living in Gaza, leaving aside any humanitarian concern for the over one million Lebanese that have been displaced over the last month. The question is, will they have any capacity to take action against Israel or against the U.S. and its allies in the region or more broadly? Are we going to see more radicalism for a generation, which the U.S. intelligence agencies believe we will, on the back of the way that this war has been fought by Israel?

44:52And yes, a lot of Hamas operatives and leaders have been killed. Lebanese operatives and leaders have been killed. but the humanitarian damage that has been attendant to that as a consequence of the war is utterly staggering. And I assume a price will be paid for that at some point. But and that's again, that's leaving aside just the humanitarian point, which as Americans, I think we shouldn't leave aside. We certainly are the history of our country is not that we leave it aside. But implicit in that statement is a very rational argument that I would reduce to, you know, are you creating more terrorists in your killing, right?

45:36With this incredible humanitarian disaster, I would argue on both sides, but obviously in terms of civilian population, the Palestinians have paid a huge price. You know, I do think it's important to note that the Israelis have prosecuted this war with a lower civilian to enemy combatant mortality rate than any war we've prosecuted. And what I come to, or the argument I would put forth is it's about incentives. And we, at the end of World War II, continued to bomb Hamburg and Dresden, despite the fact we had won the war at much greater civilian-to-combatant mortality ratios. And when asked why, Eisenhower and the generals responded, they need to know they lost.

46:24Is there an argument that as horrific as this is, this damage, that you're creating an incentive system where it essentially gets people, quite frankly, to think twice before continuing to constantly arm, rearm, and have a zeitgeist and an entire constitution that is just basically attack Israel and attempt to affect what is, I see, as a genocide. I see one side, Israel is accused of genocide. I think they could, they don't. I think the proxies would but can't. Is there something to the notion that, quite frankly, counterpunching much harder creates a safer region with incentives that finally line up not to stop attacking Israel?

47:10It is an unanswerable question, Scott. But I mean, of course, it is hard to argue that the Palestinians don't know that they're losing. They've been losing territory for a long time now, right? I mean, again, in the West Bank, while the war has been prosecuted in Gaza, they're losing a lot more territory illegally to the Israeli settlers with the support of the Israeli government. I don't think that helps Israel's cause personally. They've gone from the good guys to the bad guys. In terms of global perception. They've managed their brand terribly. I would argue, like when you and I were kids, and they were the good guys, they were the David, now they're the Goliath.

47:52Well, of course, and to be fair, some of that, even if they had handled this war as well as possible, which they have not, but even if they had, and even if they had showed so much more restraint and gone in with a multinational force after October 7th, and, you know, Macron said, I'm willing to fight with you. Okay, well, let's do this together, and let's be targeted. Even if they'd done that, you know how much anti-Semitism there was running up to October 7th. A lot of people would have said they were the bad guys and would have said that because they're more powerful, because their military is more capable, because they're a lot richer, because the Palestinians are living in a horrible environment.

48:31And the Palestinians own some of the blame for that. And so do the Gulf states for not doing anything about it. So does the Americans, so are the Israelis. There's plenty of blame. But you're not asking me who's responsible. You're asking me, what's the smart strategy? I have a hard time believing that after the, you know, the the massive depredation, the, you know, sort of 90 percent of Gaza Palestinians without enough water before the October 7th, 50 percent without enough food before October 7th. and then following that on with one-tenth as much humanitarian support getting in for the last year, I don't think that that is going to lead to better behaved, more quiescent Palestinians willing to work with Israel over the long term.

49:18I don't believe that. Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, look, my mom was Armenian before she passed. And, you know, the Armenians for generations harbored irrational hatred towards Turks, Turks that had done nothing to the Armenians, but historically they had. More recently, we've just seen about 120 ,000 Armenians ethnically cleansed from mountainous Harabakh, which oddly, former President Trump just tweeted about a couple of days ago, but otherwise nobody talks about it because we're living at a time of greater impunity where if you have the military might to ensure that you're in charge, you get to win.

50:05And that's what happened. The Americans complained, the French complained, but Baku is about to host their COP summit for global climate as a petro state. And they're occupying that territory and the Armenians aren't going to get it back. And that's just the way it is. So I think that we're heading towards a different global order, going back to the beginning, one without global leadership, one that feels more anarchic, one where the relatively loose rules and norms that we have, that we largely, the Americans, have created with allies to try to reduce instability around the world is breaking apart.

50:44So that's why I was just in Asia. That's why our allies, the South Koreans and the Japanese, are talking more about getting nuclear weapons. I don't think that's a good thing. Why? Because they're concerned that the Americans might not be willing to defend them and countries might be willing to use nukes in a more likely in this environment than they would have 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, because those norms are eroding. I think there's lots of stuff like that happening that makes our world more dangerous. Yeah, I would agree that the world's policemen did, in fact, have some upside. So I'm curious if you, well, I'm going to ask you, I want to return to the domestic, to return to the homeland in our remaining minutes here.

51:27Curious, A, if you have any predictions about the election. And also, I mean, most of the smart people I know have said it's a toss up. They kind of shrug their shoulders. They might have a thesis, but then they shrug their shoulders and say it's within the margin of error. What do you think about how such contrasting candidates and the fact that it's a toss up, what do you think it says about America? And just curious if you have any thoughts or predictions about this election and what might happen after. I think, I mean, we're saving this for the end, so it's an abbreviated conversation. It deserves more.

51:59But, you know, as someone who looks at the world more than I look inside the United States, the common thesis this year is throw the bums out. We're not happy with where our country's going. We want somebody different. We just saw that in Japan this weekend, stable Japan. We've seen it, you know, even in India where Modi's so incredibly popular, but has to govern in coalitions, South Africa, UK, Austria, Germany, France. I mean, you name it around the world. This is what we're seeing. So this election in the United States with inflation having been high and now it's coming down, but the prices haven't gone down and illegal immigration having been really high and now it's coming down, but the illegal immigrants are all still here.

52:45You know, whoever's holding the bag is probably going to lose. So, I mean, you know, ex ante, your view of this election should be it's a change election and the Republicans should win. Having said that, Trump is the least attractive, least fit candidate the Republicans could possibly run. I mean, any other Republican candidate would win easily, in my view, certainly against Biden and against Kamala Harris as well. But but Trump is not any other candidate. He is a uniquely unfit candidate. And therefore, it's a toss up. That's that's so that's my thesis. And if you ask me, like, you know, if I had a bet, what would I bet?

53:27I guess I would bet that Trump is going to win by a really slim margin because I ultimately I think that structural vote for something different really matters. And it seems to me that the Harris Democrats are playing defense and Trump's playing offense. And on balance, defense doesn't turn out the voters effectively. But those are very soft theses in in an environment where everything is within the margin of error. So I don't like your other friends, Scott. I don't I don't have a strong I don't have a strong view. I could I could easily be surprised on this one. I think we're all going to be.

54:09I'm more worried about the disinformation environment. I'm more worried about how Americans. I mean, you're right that the two candidates are so different because the people that are supporting the two candidates believe completely different things. And it's getting worse and worse and worse every day. And we see it in our mainstream media. Lord knows we see it in our social media. I mean, we even saw it in the response to FEMA and the hurricane. We saw it in response to the pandemic. And now it's in our election. If you're a Dem or a Republican, your views of what matters and what is true has never been more different than your fellow Americans since the Civil War.

54:48And I think that's what's driving these candidates being so radically different. And that bodes badly for what happens to the U.S. after next Tuesday. Well, just going back to incentives, and this will be my last question or thesis. The dangerous thing about an autocracy and why it's so effective is that I see it again. And Jeff Bezos, it appears, was incentivized or forced. Supposedly, a representative of one of his companies was meeting with Trump. And there was pressure applied to someone you would think would be immune from pressure in a capitalist society, being the third or fourth wealthiest person in the world.

55:22And the story running around was that he was essentially pressured into pressuring The Washington Post to not issue an endorsement. And this is the danger I see of an autocracy, that the upside of supporting this person or supporting each of them, I don't want to say it's bigger than autocracy because you get the sense he's a bit of a kleptocrat and will do money good for you regardless of the Constitution or the DOJ to pay you back. and on the flip side, go out of his way to use the full power and influence of the government to prosecute his political enemies. Whereas if you don't support Harris, the downside I see is much less because I think she has respect for the law and she's not going to go after her political opponents and might not get appointed to be ambassador, but she's not going to weaponize the DOJ against them.

56:09So all of the incentives on a risk-adjusted basis, I see these heads of investment banks, I know they support Harris, but I keep seeing them hedge their bets because they're worried that Trump would be more punitive and lost than Harris. I see this as just, I never recognized just how effective autocracy is, the perception of a lack of concern for the law. Your thoughts? Yeah. And it's because people are insufficiently valuing the importance of democratic institutions and rule of law. Those are long-term things that they don't care enough about. And America's really good. Capitalism is really good at valuing short-term things, but not long-term things, not public goods, not negative externalities.

57:00And I mean, you remember after January 6th, there were a lot of American CEOs that finally said, you know what, we've got to value this. If you were a member of Congress and you refuse to certify a free and fair election, those are table stakes for democracy. We're just not going to, our PACs aren't going to give you money anymore. That's it. And you and I know a lot of the CEOs that made those decisions and I was glad they did it. That didn't even last a year. And it's not because those members of Congress apologized and changed their behavior. It's because, well, you know, it's kind of convenient.

57:32We want to like give him money again. And, you know, let's get in the game. And we, you know, our competitors are going to do it. And it was such weenie behavior. You know, it was, I mean, again, this is from someone, these are from companies that didn't need to do it. Jeff Bezos doesn't need, he is wealthy enough, powerful enough. He can stand up. You know, it wasn't comfortable or convenient for me, um, to, uh, to go after Elon when he did something that I thought was really problematic. He's not an enemy I need. Believe it. But I can't live with myself if I can't be honest about what I think on the global political stage.

58:15Like, that's just who I am. And if I lose money for that, who gives a shit? It doesn't matter. I lose a client for that. I don't care. But, you know, I do think that if you spend all of your time, I mean, maybe the problem with a person like Bezos is once you become that rich, The only way you become that rich is by that becoming the only thing you value. Right. It shows that money is the only thing that is truly important for you. That is that is what you orient all of your time and being towards. And if that's true, there's not much space in your value set for valuing democracy, rule of law, a community, a family, any of those things.

58:52and therefore, you know, having his guys get the meeting and, you know, telling the people of the Washington Post to go scratch, it does reflect who he actually is as a person. But, you know, we as America are incenting a lot of the wrong kinds of behavior by lionizing someone like that as a captain of USA because they are not leading by example. That's pretty clear. Ian Bremmer is the president and founder of Eurasia Group, the world's leading political risk research and consulting firm, and GZero Media, a company dedicated to providing intelligent and engaging coverage of international affairs.

59:32He's also the author of 11 books, including the New York Times bestsellers, Us vs. Them, The Failure of Globalism, and his latest, The Power of Crisis, How Three Threats and Our Response Will Change the World. He joins us from his home in New York and off to his new office that he purchased because Ian is a baller. Ian is literally, Ian is the guy, he's like one of my peers that has just like killed it both, both in terms of influence and actually knows how to build a business. Ian, I always enjoy our conversations and I'm glad you continue to thrive. Me too, Scott. It's great to talk to you, man.

1:00:07Good to see you.

1:00:19Algebra of happiness. One of the people who sent in a question said, I don't always agree with you, but I enjoy your comments. To me, that's arguably one of the nicer things I hear from people. And that is, what is your job if you're an academic, if you're a thought leader, if you're someone engaged in discourse, you want to inspire thinking. And this is the fear, and I fall into this a lot. There is a narrative out there. As soon as you get on social media, it's going to shove you into a bubble that it perceives as your narrative, and it's going to surround you with content and other people who have signed up for a certain narrative.

1:00:58And unfortunately, kind of the narratives out there, the ones that people digress to are generally political. I'm either a progressive or I'm a conservative. It used to be religions, or it used to be nationalism, or your country, or whatever it might be. But now it's basically left or right. And you're treated like an apostate if you veer from the party line. And that is not how we move things forward. We have to be able to think, okay, generally speaking, I agree more with these people, more with these people, whatever it might be. But if you don't have issues where you kind of color outside the lines, it probably means you're not a critical thinker because nobody has, no political party, no ideology, no religion has a monopoly on the truth.

1:01:38And there's so much incentive to sign up for the narrative and you get so much positive feedback. If I go on, you know, Meta has decided, figured out I'm a progressive. So all of these, I've been suggested as a follow to a lot of progressives. So when I put out a thing saying that the October surprise might be this shithead comedian who insulted Puerto Ricans and there's 400 ,000 Puerto Ricans in Pennsylvania, this might be the October surprise that swings Pennsylvania to Harris. Five or 6 ,000 likes, because, oh my gosh, my my algorithmically chosen progressives love that shit but if i come out and say you know i don't think i think trump actually going on rogan was a great idea i think the energy distinct of distinct of the ridiculous rhetoric that was at that msg meeting the energy there i think was really surprisingly strong given that they came to the bluest of blue i thought it was smart for trump to go on rogan and people treat you like you're an apostate i knew when i put out an endorsement of Harris, I was going to lose subscribers because I have a lot of people who are center-right and a lot of conservatives who listen to our stuff, and I like that.

1:02:46And I knew when I put that out, I would lose subscribers. And we actually lost more subscribers than we ever had off a single post. But here's the thing. If you're wealthy and you have people who love you unconditionally, you have an obligation to speak your mind. And it's okay. It's okay to be wrong. It's okay to disagree. It's okay to move the ball forward. Progress is a function of evidence and argument. And when we all bark up the same tree, we get stupid. If you put out a viewpoint that is not part of your posse, not part of your tribe's narrative, that's okay. If you have a civil discussion around it, people will forgive you, and you're both going to be fine.

1:03:25Are you a critical thinker, or have you just signed up for a narrative? Progress is a function of the former. This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez and Caroline Shagrin, and Drew Burrows is our technical director. Thank you for listening to the Prof G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We'll catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. And please follow our Prof G Markets Pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

1:03:57I'm Italian. Yeah, yeah. Come here at night and look at my skims.