Vulnerabilities in Space + Updates on the Wars in Ukraine and the Middle East— with David Ignatius

26:02We were behind. The United States had an incredible catch-up effort. We put men on the moon. Nobody has equaled that to this day. There was the era of the space shuttle. We were totally dominant. But then, for some reason, the United States lost interest in space, to the point that we had to buy launch capability for satellites from other countries. We just didn't have the rockets to put big satellites in orbit. Russia supplied that for a time. And then along came commercial space. Along came Elon Musk. And with SpaceX, the history of trying and trying and trying and finally getting it right, he has extraordinary low-cost launch capability.

26:46and that's been matched by others in the industry. So the things you can do in space cheaply, it's a much broader array. The communication satellites that are beaming brought that internet down to Earth, I don't think were imagined 10, 15 years ago. 5 ,000 satellites is a lot. Amazon's about to put 2 ,000 at least of its own in space to do its business. There are other companies around the world that are jumping into this as well. So the cost advantage is significant. All this stuff is in low-Earth orbit. It's very vulnerable. The Russians have just, our intelligence community says, have been thinking about the mismatch between all that we have and the little that they have and saying, if we needed to take out those low-Earth orbit satellites, we could use a nuclear weapon.

27:40We just created a debris field in low-Earth orbit, so nothing could pass, really, for a generation. So that's the vulnerability. But on the basic question you're asking, GPS was a brilliant idea that was developed initially for national security purposes and just got better and more refined year by year. Russia tried to copy it from the beginning. It was very, very poor. It had nothing like the resolution fidelity the U.S. had. China has a system called Beidou that they've been working on very hard. It's pretty good, but it's not as good as GPS. Europe has its own system. India has a system. Japan has a system.

28:28Everybody knows This is the backbone of everything that you do, but it's vulnerable. It's vulnerable to attack. It's vulnerable to spoofing, other mischief that can be done to interfere with a salad. So I think one thing I want to do in this book is get people thinking about the technologies that are part of everyday life. I mean, who doesn't go a moment without a cell phone? But without a GPS to locate where that phone is and allow it to work and exchange signals, the system would be untenable, wouldn't work. So a couple of thoughts listening to you talk about this. One, they're vulnerable, but so are civilian populations.

29:17Isn't part of this process to communicate to adversaries that an attack on our satellites would be like an attack on a civilian population that would be an act of war? Or do you think it's more realistic to develop technologies that make these things stealthy and more difficult to take out? So I think our vulnerability is greater because our dependence on these systems is greater. It's asymmetric in that sense. That's why Russia thinks if we obliterated everything in low-Earth orbit, we'd suffer, but the Americans of the West would suffer more. So that's why the balance of terror prevails and nuclear weapons may not be as applicable.

30:00I think hardening satellites, I think developing redundancy. I think finding ways to avoid vulnerable communications from satellites to Earth through the kind of thing that Starlink uses, mesh networks in space. You've got 5 ,000 satellites spinning around. They're creating their own internet as they were in space using mesh networks up there to exchange signals so that they can download them to Earth at the most appropriate opportune time. And technologies like that are really helpful. We now have a Space Force that's first job is to figure out what's up there. What among the hundreds and hundreds of satellites might have attack capability by monitoring, not just from Earth, but close up to take a look?

30:52And they've seen some extraordinary things, which I try to describe in the book. The very cleverly configured Chinese seemingly attack Russian satellites that are structured like Matryoshka dolls, where a little satellite pops out of a big satellite and then goes toward the target. So then Space Force will think, how do we harden the system so they're less vulnerable? Another thing we haven't talked about is the ability to use high-powered microwaves or lasers to beam malware into satellites from a distance without people on Earth necessarily being aware that that malware had been implanted, that it could be activated in a time of crisis.

31:34So you want to harden satellites against that kind of risk. And then finally, inevitably, the U.S. will want its own offensive capability in space. I have no idea what that's going to be. This is the most classified area I've ever encountered as a journalist, as a writer, to try to penetrate. You just don't get answers when you ask, okay, like what weapons are you developing? But I'm sure they're developing some. I had one of those aha moments in technology. I remember the first time I bought something on my BlackBerry or took a picture of a check and it automatically showed up in my checking account.

32:10I had one of those moments, I think about a month or two months ago. I was on a plane and I used Starlink. And within two minutes of connecting to Starlink, I got a call on my phone and the quality, it was FaceTime, and the FaceTime call was perfect on a plane. I mean, it really is powerful. It's amazingly good technology. Yeah, it's intoxicating. And a few days before, I had flown over the west coast, or excuse me, the east coast of Florida and saw a Starlink or a SpaceX rocket flying into space. I'm like, you just got to give it to this guy. I mean, he's not doing a photo sharing app. He's putting satellites into space.

32:50But wouldn't the rest of the world pray for our problems in the sense that our vulnerabilities and our problems are a function of the fact that we're dominating this final frontier? You know, we're 25 % of global GDP. We're, you know, we have the biggest military in the world, but I think we're maybe 40 or 50 % of the world's military, maybe a little bit more than that. But it feels like we just dominate space. Isn't this an example of how America is leapfrogging ahead? So this is an example of the continuing dynamism of the American technology sector, as is the creation of large language models.

33:25Most things in technology, we're not as far behind as we were. we were. I think my response would be in a characteristically American way, we end up sharing the technology that we create with the world and it enhances the world's ability to do the things that we do. The internet was created in the United States initially for very limited purposes to share defense information among different labs. We ended up sharing that with the world and encouraging a governance system through ICANN that was not controlled by government, but was controlled by people who were technically competent and knew not how to protect the system.

34:08We made it open. Sadly to me, Paradox of the Modern World is that that super open communication system that we created and gave the world ends up empowering closed societies that can control it and adding a degree of instability to open societies that can't control it. Who could have predicted that? But that's the way it turned out. But we continue. GPS is a perfect example. This was an American idea. It was developed initially in secret. We shared the technology with the whole world. Everybody's got one. Everybody's better off for having one. We don't say boo about it. And I think the main thing that the U.S.

34:51tries to do is get some order and regulation for space so things don't bump into each other. That whole command and control system for space, the U.S. runs. We're trying to spin off parts of it. But again, I think our problem is we create these fantastic technologies and then become vulnerable to them. Look at Internet hacking. Look at the vulnerability of everything we do in the United States to the assaults on the technology that we created. What do we do about that? We don't stop creating the technology, but we do need to think more about how to protect it. You said it's sort of the intersection of these technological developments and geopolitics.

35:34What do you see as the biggest threat? Maybe it's more than one. Is it some sort of malware? Is it a cyber attack? Is it a war in space? Is it AI becoming sentient and super weapons? If you were to try and guess what are the most frightening potential headlines we might read in the next two or three years and involve technology, what is your best guess? So, on the purely technological front, I think I do worry about the speed of warfare as AI systems increasingly make decisions, because with hypersonic missiles, the decision time for human beings isn't there. So I'd liken it to what DeepMind or AlphaGo did to playing chess or Go.

36:30So as I understand it, AlphaGo understands every move that any human being ever made on a Go board and then can think of any move that could be made that no human being ever thought of. Same thing with chess. It's not just a compendium of every move in the past that was made. It's something much more creative than that. So applied to warfare, a system that with that power could think of strategies, vulnerabilities, ways to exploit weakness, that even the most aggressive military planners couldn't think of. and I know the person who was worried most about this before he died was Henry Kissinger.

37:17I talked to Kissinger at length. Kissinger wrote a couple of books about it, that AI presented enormous opportunities in ways we all know, but from his perspective as somebody who'd spent really his whole career thinking about arms control, the real threat now wasn't the weapons, but the AI systems that would drive use of the weapons. And as he died, that was the thing topmost in his mind, and he was right. So give us, you cover these conflicts, give us your sense of the state of play of Ukraine or the war in Ukraine right now. It feels like we've been distracted with a bunch of other things and haven't spent that much time thinking about it.

37:56So just to briefly describe Ukraine as it seemed to me just over a month ago when I was last there, I visited with President Zelensky. It's always inspiring. In this case, it was inspiring and depressing. He described a situation where he was still then waiting for congressional approval of the weapons. And he said, if we don't get them, we have no choice but to retreat. And he drew me a little map of the battlefield and said, we have 2 ,000 rounds a day, the Russians have 8 ,000. We just can't hold these lines. as you draw on that we have to reduce shrink them. We have to take some of our positions out.

38:39So that was happening. I fear it's happening now. If you read the news, the Russians are advancing in the East while they wait for the weapons to arrive. When the Ukrainians get the weapons that we're sending them, I think the wisest course for them is to consolidate their positions, to make sure the Russians don't gain any more territory and prepare for next year offensive operations that could begin to push the Russians back. The Russians are in it for the long haul, too. They just put in place a team in their defense ministry that's going to be about a war economy for as far ahead as we can imagine.

39:23Putin isn't giving up. So for me, the thing, sadly that people need to focus on is giving Ukraine the resources to keep fighting as long as it's why it pay that cost until it can get to the point where it has the leverage to push the Russians and the Chinese toward negotiations for a just negotiated settlement. I can't describe what that would look like. Let me tell you one other thing about about what you see in Ukraine, which is interesting, I think, to your listeners. Ukraine has developed an incredible entrepreneurial ecosystem. Ukrainians are making their own drones now that can reach far into Russia.

40:11They have attacked 200 miles east of Russia. In one case I read about recently, they've taken out roughly 15 % of Russia's refining capacity. They're building drones because Russia's gotten better at EW, electronic warfare, that can jam the signals that allow guidance and successful targeting by drones. They're putting AI at the edge in their drones, the cheap little drones. They make them in furniture stores. They're just kind of cheap little wood, but they fly. And then they're putting very sophisticated AI systems that can map the terrain. And even if they're cut off from any communications with satellite guidance or with their home base, can still get to their targets.

40:57They're doing that on their own largely. Some American entrepreneurs. The Ukrainian war has become, if you remember from your history, the Spanish Civil War, the International Brigade. In Kiev now, there are entrepreneurs from all over the world. I met Australians, Portuguese, lots of Americans. And they're just coming there to help the Ukrainians think of ways to survive. It's a fascinating little world. It deserves more journalism to describe it. So, you know, with technology, their technology is really good, and they have stayed ahead of the Russians. I think they can stay in the field, to come back to my point, until they have enough power to negotiate with Russia from a position of strength.

41:42Now talk a little bit about your sense of the war in Gaza and how technology is playing out there. So, technology's failures in Gaza, Israel's technology superpower, Israel's technology, it appears from the New York Times reporting, was sufficient that they captured plans for what Hamas would do on October 7. But human failure, the inability of senior intelligence officers to take seriously what junior intelligence officers had seen in the collection, is part of the tragedy. October 7, Israel just didn't see it coming. Israel didn't see the trench system, the underground metro, as they call it, the tunnels.

42:32I mean, it turns out in this tiny area, Gaza is like 25 miles long and seven miles wide. In that tiny area, there are 350 miles of tunnels. Imagine that, you know, just crisscrossing at every level. Israel didn't really have an adequate sense of that. And I'm working a column today about Israel beginning to think about an endgame that doesn't obliterate Hamas, that may not be possible, but begins to develop alternative non-Hamas governance in Gaza, which means turning to the people Netanyahu hates or the Palestinian Authority. But there are a lot of Israelis, especially in the IDF, who think that's the only way to go.

43:21I share that view. how do you think this thing if you were to try and play it out and you've written about okay what is what what about the day after how how if you had to speculate this plays out and then what does it look like after there's some sort of resolution so i think the first thing is to realize that rafa in a sense has been overplayed by by both sides. Israel does not at present have the military forces for an all-out assault on Rafa. This is more noise than it is an actual attack plan. Every time the U.S. says, we don't think you should attack Rafa, the Prime Minister Nanyahu seems to think he has to say, I'm going to attack Rafa.

44:13But there aren't those plans at present. And people in the IDF agree with people in the U.S. government that doing this carefully, not necessarily in a rush, makes sense. And they understand more to the point that unless you've thought clearly about how you're going to maintain order once you've cleared Rafah. You're not going to kill every Hamas fighter in Rafah, just as they didn't kill every Hamas fighter in Gaza City or Khan Yunus. They're still there, a lot of them. But they're not strong enough to threaten Israel. And if you create an alternative security presence, they're probably not strong enough to dominate Gaza going forward.

44:59A lot of Gaza Palestinians, I know from my reporting, do not like Hamas. So I think people we're finally beginning to think about the day after issues. What does stability look like in the long run in a way that is better for Israel, is better for the Palestinians? And turning the page to that point has taken seven months, but that's where things ought to be. So just to say one final personal thing, I've been covering the Middle East a long time. I think Hamas has done enormous damage to the Palestinians. I think having sympathy for Hamas just doesn't make sense to me given how they've operated.

45:40I think having sympathy for the Palestinian people and their suffering or aspirations for statehood and dignity is entirely appropriate. But Israel's goal of making sure that Hamas never governs Gaza again, I think that's something that makes sense for everybody, especially the Palestinians. Well, just a couple of theses and you respond to them. One, I don't think a two-state solution which I think most people agree is a decent goal, is possible with either Netanyahu or Hamas in charge. Do you agree with that? Yes. And what you said about having empathy and sympathy for the residents of Gaza, I mean, right now it's got the greatest concentration of child amputees in the world.

46:27I mean, it's horrific. And a lot of people, I've talked a lot about this issue, And a lot of people say, Scott, you need to differentiate between anti-Semitism and being anti-Israel and being anti-Semitic. And I think that's a fair statement because my understanding is about Netanyahu is about 30 % support. So there's a lot of people in Israel that are kind of anti-the current Israeli leadership. Where I don't think there's as much sharp relief is people say you can have a lot of empathy for Palestinians and be anti-Hamas. Because my understanding is, I don't want to be clear, people, children, people under the age of 18, victims, humanitarian aid should absolutely, we need to protect it and make sure it gets there.

47:14But my understanding is Hamas actually has still a great deal of support among the Palestinian people. And that a lot of these houses that the IDF goes into have connections to tunnels, weapons, pictures of Hamas leaders that, you know, just as we held the German people accountable for the Third Reich, is there really that much light in between the Palestinian people and Hamas? So I think there's enough light and distance that equating the two and essentially imposing collective punishment on the Palestinians is wrong morally and it's also wrong strategically. It's a guarantee for unending conflict.

47:58You're just not gonna kill all the Palestinians. They may hate you, but you've got to find a way for them to have stable governance. Gradually, over time, things change. The U.S., in fact, held the Nazi party responsible for what happened in Germany, held the Japanese war machine responsible for their war, but didn't hold the people of those two countries responsible. and indeed tried to help from a very early moment when the war ended, to help those people begin to develop prosperity, democratic political systems. And today, to me, Japan and Germany are among the most successful democratic countries I know, precisely because we didn't impose collective punishment on the people.

48:49and uh you know i've spent i've been covering this scott for this way too long since 1980s 40 almost 45 years i've lived in a palestinian village i went back to visit that that village uh in december just to see the people who'd taken me in and i'll say a couple things about them one interesting thing about the west bank is it hasn't blown up during this nightmare war Everybody was afraid it would, but it hasn't. Why? Well, probably, Palestine is, you know, Israel is sitting on them hard, but they don't want the disaster that Hamas brought to Gaza to happen to them. I may be naive in thinking that there's a way to a successful two-state solution.

49:37I know it'll take years. I know that both countries are really far from it, But I also know that if you don't start now, you're just going to be stuck. I've watched Israel and the Palestinians stuck in this misery for too long. I want it to move to a different place. And I try to explain in my journalism how you do that and spend the time going village to village in the West Bank just to make sure I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy to think that you could get to something better. So that's what my reporting tells me. For the purposes of pushback, and also not to prove a point, but to learn here, I have a tremendous respect for your domain expertise, and I try to keep an open mind about this.

50:23But when you say that we didn't hold the German and the Japanese people accountable, I would push back. We killed 3.5 million Japanese, including 100 ,000 in one night. 5.5 million Germans were killed by the Allies, including we continued to bomb in Hamburg and Dresden well beyond when it had strategic objectives. other than convincing them that they needed to know that they lost. And then holding the Palestinian people, the way you're framing it is that the Israelis are taking a more, what I call, inhuman approach to the Palestinians and the allies did in World War II. And I disagree with that.

50:58And they're dropping leaflets, they're leaving voicemails. My sense is that they are doing their best to try and root out the combatants who Hamas, you know, are using civilians as ammunition. why is it you think that Israel is holding Palestinians to greater account than the Allies held the Germans or the Japanese? I don't see the data to support that. So I take your point that during that all-out fight in World War II, the United States killed a lot of German and Japanese civilians. The United States' position nominally was to reduce to limit civilian casualties. Unlike the British that were conducting strategic bombing of Germany hitting cities, the U.S.

51:47position was, let's hit military facilities. But that got blurred, and I don't disagree in any way that the killing was horrific. There's evidence, Evan Thomas's new book about the road to surrender in Japan, it makes clear that And Truman and Stimson thought that they were choosing a military target in Hiroshima. It wasn't. The aim point was right in the middle of town, killing civilians. But they thought, they convinced themselves that they had ruled out what the military wanted to do, which was bomb Kyoto and shatter the symbol of Japanese culture and civilians there. And they avoided that.

52:36So are we holding Israel to a different standard than we followed ourselves? Maybe. We live in a different time when you see war on your TV every day in a way you didn't during World War II. It's immediate and present and visceral. I've talked a lot to people in the IDF. I've known, covered Israel for all these decades. I have very good longstanding contacts in the IDF. And I asked them, what accounts for the high level of civilian to Hamas casualties? And by most estimates, I know these Israelis are pushing back on this, but by estimates of U.S. intelligence, the ratio is unusually high and well beyond what we imposed after some time in Iraq and Afghanistan.

53:35So what accounts for that? What's going on? And when I asked that question, IDF, IAF, Israeli Air Force officers, tell me about their rules of engagement, about the algorithms they use to try to reduce civilian casualties. But then they also tell me about the overrides that exist. I just, I look at these numbers, Scott, and I think too many civilians have died relative to the number of fighters, more than was necessary. That's not to say that Israel is unique in that, doing things different from what the U.S. did during World War II. I'm not taking issue with that. But could they have done this differently?

54:19Could they do it differently right now as they plan the RAFA operation? Could they think carefully about how to reduce civilian suffering and death in this next phase? That's what the U.S. has been saying. And I think that that's the right question. ask. I don't think that's a double standard at all. It's a standard. So things that are being done that I just find abhorrent, you know, there are Israelis who are blocking corridors of humanitarian assistance. They are not the IDF. The IDF is opening them up. There were police units reporting to right-wing members of this governing coalition who closed those corridors, And the IDF came in and opened them because they know it's not in Israel's strategic interest to do this.

55:06The IDF hate settler violence in the West Bank. You know who the biggest enemy of that is? The IDF. Because they've got to keep the lid on. And these crazy settlers who blow down from the mountaintops and, you know, go on wearing masks and kill people and what they say are revenge attacks. That drives the IDF crazy. And tell me if you think this is an unfair question, but I want to pose it anyways, because you really do sit at the intersection of warfare in D.C. and geopolitics. But the scenario I always imagine is a jihadist or radical cartel is elected to lead Mexico. And they incur into Texas under the auspices of you have been demonic to migrants.

55:54You've been putting our kids in cages. And it's based on this flawed, blasphemous ideology called evangelical Christianity. and we have an obligation to our God to come in and we've gotten aid and we've spent years building tunnels underneath the Texas-Mexican border. We come in and this might be fair or unfair, but on a per capita basis, kill about 30 ,000 Americans and then take 5 ,000 back and hide them in tunnels under Mexico. And the question I was asked is, what would we do? And I believe our response would make Israel's response look gentle. Is that fair? I don't think it is entirely fair.

56:41I'm just thinking about the wars that I've watched. There was a nightmarish problem of ISIS violence that was sweeping across the Middle East, just truly horrific, pornographic violence, just crazy ways of killing people and, you know, subjugating women in particular to beastly conditions. And the U.S. decided to fight back. So how did we do that? Well, the first thing we did was to get an ally, a local ally. The one thing we didn't do adequately in Iraq or Afghanistan, but we got people who were prepared to fight and die to do the operations on the ground. And so the first thing you'd think about with Mexico is there'd be a lot of people who would be potential allies and you'd want to work with them.

57:32And then we thought about the need to move slowly and carefully so that the shaping of the operations against ISIS took months. People wondered, what the heck is the U.S. doing? Why is it taking so long? I remember I was able to go into Syria with the Special Operations Command repeatedly. I kept thinking, why are we going faster? And the reason was to shape it carefully so that when you went in, it would be quick and decisive. So they went in, the capital of ISIS was Raqqa. They didn't take Raqqa. They got all around it. They began recruiting tribes that had roots in Raqqa. They took the town next to Raqqa called Tabqa.

58:16They staged operations to to squeeze, they began to get the civilians out of Raqqa. So the people in Raqqa mostly were the fighters. So when we say there's a better way to do this than the way you're doing it, we have some authority in making that claim. So how would we deal with Mexico? I mean, I don't know. But I mean, And the right answer surely is we ought to find a way in that nightmare, a hypothetical scenario you describe, to do a better job than Israel, tragically, with the greatest sympathy for the dilemmas they faced, than they did. Because too many people died. We might be forced into that same situation.

59:03We might kill an equivalent number of people. But I hope we wouldn't have to. that we'd be smarter, and I hope Israel would be smarter. David Ignatius is a prize-winning columnist for The Washington Post and has been covering the Middle East and the CIA for more than four decades. He's also written several New York Times bestsellers, including The Increment, Body of Lies, and Blood Money. His latest novel, Phantom Orbit, a thriller, is out now. He joins us from his home in northwest Washington. David, I could have gone two hours here, and I really do appreciate your measured, thoughtful view on these things and the way that you add texture.

59:43I found this really interesting, and I learned from it. Appreciate your time. I enjoyed the conversation, too. They were tough questions. We'll be right back.

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1:01:30Algebra of happiness. I think a lot about drinking and alcohol. I love alcohol. And I've said I'm good at it. It makes me, you know, I'm a slightly better version or actually probably a tangibly better version of me a little bit fucked up. I'm more emotive, I'm more affectionate, I'm funnier, I'm more engaged under the influence of alcohol. And I know how terrible that sounds. I have decided to start reducing my intake of alcohol because whenever I do a physical and they ask me how many drinks a week I have, I figured out I'm drinking about a bottle of Maker's Mark every one and a half to two weeks, which just can't be good for you.

1:02:07And then after listening to about 10 minutes of Peter Atty or Andrew Huberman, it's clear I might as well be, I don't know, guzzling a gallon of Clorox bleach the way they describe it. So I'm trying to take down my alcohol intake for selfish reasons for my own health. Well, here's another reason I want all of us dads to think about reducing our alcohol intake. I went out Friday night with a friend. I went to the premiere of Mad Max Furiosa. I went afterwards to Chilton Firehouse, which is the coolest room in London. When I say cool, great lighting, hot people, great drinks, great service. I just absolutely love it there.

1:02:47and I went with my friend and I had two makers in ginger. I've been trying to limit my alcohol intake. As a matter of fact, right after doing ketamine, I didn't like the smell of alcohol. And I tried to lean into that and started ordering grapefruit juice and soda and really liked that. But now I'm toddling back and starting to drink again. See above charming Scott. And then at two, I thought, okay, I'm going to get my wheelie and get out of here. But I had a third and then so i'm feeling really good and i am watching uh my sons this weekend and my oldest is staying in boarding school my youngest and so i'm fucked up okay fine i go home go to sleep i get up i sleep in an hour two hours later than i would because see above i'm fucked up and i'm hung over i get up i just want to have greasy food i take another nap i want to take my son and the dogs out for a walk.

1:03:37My son is being not difficult. He's being what a 13-year-old is. He's being a 13-year-old. So I don't get them out for a walk. I let the dogs out in the backyard. And basically, we go the whole day without doing anything. The bottom line is, shitty dad. Shitty dad. And what I'm going to do and I want dads to think about is I'm not saying stop drinking. What I'm saying is, at some point, does it make sense to stop chasing it? That's what I do when I drink. I think, wow, I love the way this makes me feel. I love this atmosphere. I'm going to do number three, maybe number four, and I start chasing that feeling.

1:04:19And real maturity, I think, comes from the notion of, okay, I love the idea. I love the idea and the concept, and I've tried to always do this, of leaving a little too early. A little too early. I love that. I've done that in businesses. I've started businesses, and when they're jamming, I sell them or I leave. I think it's okay to leave the stage while everyone is applauding. I like that. Modulate. Leave a little early from social environments, and don't have the third drink, Don't have the fourth drink. Wake up at a reasonable hour the next morning. Don't be fucked up. Don't be hungover. Be the dad you want to be.

1:05:01We're not going to chase it. We're going to think about what would it require. Would it really take that much discipline to leave an hour earlier, to have one or two fewer drinks, and then be up an hour, two hours earlier and be totally engaged in what you're supposed to be engaged in on the weekends. The weekends are no longer about nursing your hangovers and recovering from the shitty health impacts of alcohol. It's about nourishing your relationship with your son. This episode was produced by Caroline Chagrin. Jennifer Sanchez is our associate producer. And Drew Burrows is our technical director.

1:05:39Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network. We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn. and on Monday with our weekly market show.

1:05:54A lot of riffing, a lot of humor, a lot of insight, a lot of daddy, a lot of papa dog, a lot of markets. Even the non sequiturs were elegant, yet generous, yet moving. Oh my God, what did I eat today? How do I recreate this? How do we bottle a little daddy? How do we bottle today's daddy? Put a label on it and become billionaires. Billionaires, Jennifer. You need a jet. How do we bottle this? How do we bottle this? Let's start a podcast. Oh, wait.