Andy Burnham - Our First Indie-Kid PM?

20:50Richard Osman:But we are 100 % definitively in an era where American popular culture is under the yoke of about five people, all of whom are billionaires and all of whom have quite thin skins. Yes. And it's interesting that so many people are moving away. We should do something on China Maxing in a future episode because lots of the cultural, the cultural pull is moving past even somewhere like Seoul and it's just moving east. And I think that lots of interesting stuff or just compelling stuff for young people, Gen Z, but particularly Gen A, is now coming from China. And I think that... But of course, because of all this nonsense.

21:26Where, of course, they have no censorship.

21:29Richard Osman:So, yeah. More good news there. You're right. There's plenty, of course, for optimism. Oh, the world. It never gets any better, really, does it? Well, you know. Yeah. I suppose medical science advances. Yes. Yeah, that's good. You know, and AR will be very helpful in that, I'm sure. should we go for a break let's and after that we're going to be talking about whether andy burnham is cool or not we're not going to be talking politics we're going to be talking music

22:03Richard Osman:this episode is brought to you by the lloyds 5k house deposit lloyds are offering a 5k house deposit which was last seen in 1996 what are your entertainment memories of the 1990s i feel guilty talking about the 1990s because you look back and it was it was such a golden era we'd never had it so good and we didn't even realize because we were young and we just thought we were entitled to it all we absolutely took it for granted yeah uh brick pop was absolutely in its pomp oasis playing to a quarter of a million people you had blur and suede i'm so sorry spice girls amazing movies at the cinema train spotting i mean it felt a time of absolute optimism but at the time you just assume that was the way that a very british type of optimism yeah But part of the optimism, of course, is that mortgages were more affordable.

22:47Richard Osman:And that is what Lloyd's is dealing with right now. Yep. Last seen in 1996, Lloyd's are now offering 5K deposit mortgages to first-time buyers. Search 5K first-time buyer. 1996 average first-time buyer deposits based on ONS data. Subject to status, your home may be repossessed if you don't keep up repayments. Conditions apply. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller.

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23:40this summer serve up the cookout classics heinz ketchup and kraft singles every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick rich ketchup we all know it's not a cookout without heinz and kraft welcome back everybody now um listen we move on from uh from that fraught first

24:05Richard Osman:half to ask a simple question, which is, are we about to have our first Indy Kid Prime Minister? Marina, for our overseas listeners, interesting developments in British politics at the moment. Interesting and strangely familiar. Yes. We're going to have a new Prime Minister. Yeah. We're recording this on Monday, but as events advance, in due course, we will have a new Prime Minister. And unless something absolutely classicalism happens, that Prime Minister will probably be Andy Burnham. It will. We're not going to talk about politics. Don't worry about that. I have a very specific thing that I wanted to explore, which is, is Andy Burnham cool?

24:41Richard Osman:Now, I know you don't think anyone's cool. So actually, what I'm going to say. No, that's not true. You know that's not true. Are we about to have our first indie kid prime minister? We've had all sorts of prime ministers on Desert Island this before and political leaders. Cameron went on it. He chose a Smith song. He chose this charming man. He chose a killer song. He chose a Radiohead song, the fake plastic trees. But he's not, he wasn't an indie kid. I mean, those are the ones you would choose if, you know, you sat around with an advisor and decided which songs to choose. He's talked about Loving Eton Rifles by The Jam as well, which must, I mean, imagine being Paul Weller and hearing that.

25:12Richard Osman:Boris Johnson went on. He just pressure dropped by The Clash. I know somebody who saw David Cameron at a party once, like sort of Pogo going to a town called Malice. Oh, really? Sorry, you're just not allowed to do this. I know. You're banned off this. Kemi Badenock recently went on Desert Island Discs. She had a couple of songs from Hamilton. She had Don't Stop Till You Get Enough by Michael Jackson. Weirdly, she had Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann as well as one of her desert islanders. But anyway, Andy Burnham. Andy Burnham makes quite a lot of this kind of, I'm just, you know, this indie kid from the north.

25:45Richard Osman:Is he posing or is that for real? Now, my evidence is he did a wonderful piece. I don't know if people know The Quietus. The very fact that he did this piece with The Quietus at all tells us already he's got bona fides. If you are looking for something to subscribe to, The Quietest is very, very, very good on music and culture. And it just introduces new things all the time. They did curated playlists. And anyway, they do a feature called Baker's Dozen where people choose their favorite 13 albums. So all the evidence we're going on for Andy Burnham is his 13 favorite albums and the stories he tells on each one.

26:20Richard Osman:Shall we go through a few of them and see if Andy Burnham is actually cool or not? I've made my mind up already. but we'll go through them he was born in the same year as me Andy Burnham and the further you go down this list the more obvious that becomes he's got Beatles in there he's got Smith's Hatford of Hollow which was the year zero of turning from a kid who likes Culture Club into being an indie kid that's the album that did it for everyone Andy Burnham's got that on his list but then he goes for this is where I start thinking oh this guy's for real he goes for Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues their second album which I think is one of the greatest albums ever written.

26:59Richard Osman:He says he wants Sick Bed of Korkudan played at his funeral, which is, I'd say, it's a bold choice, Andy, but you absolutely go for it. But the definitive thing with Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues is if you are Andy Burnham's special advisor, you wouldn't say, oh, and by the way, at number three, I put Rum Sodomy and the Lash by the Pogues. Oh no, I believe all of this. You can't talk about them in the way that he has talked about them without absolutely it being completely real and authentic. We're going to come later to whether even things that are authentic can seem inauthentic in the world of politics.

27:34But I 100 % believe all of this.

27:36Richard Osman:He goes for the stone roses. I mean, Andy Byrne could not be more northwest if he tried. He's from Liverpool, was an MP, and Lee was mayor of Manchester. So I think very cleverly, almost uniquely, manages to have a foot in both of those camps. He's created this kind of overarching northern identity that somehow managed to bring them together. Yeah. Imagine if he'd done that for a southern identity. Imagine how much the country would absolutely hate him. They go, oh, this guy goes, you know what? I'm a little bit Guildford and a little bit Godalming. That's me. And that's Andy. So when he talks about the Stone Roses, which is his fourth album, which, again, you can't be an indie kid in any way whatsoever and not have the first Stone Roses album on there.

28:18Richard Osman:But he talks about how he used to go to the Hacienda. Yeah, but on the Thursday, not the Friday. The Thursday, which was student night. Saturday was like the big rave night. And he says, you know, I was very much Thursday night. I was a lager guy. They said, did you take ecstasy? He said, you know, I genuinely, I'm not being a politician. I genuinely didn't. We are about to get our first Indy Kid Prime Minister, I think. It'll be a while before we get our first rave Prime Minister. But that'll be next. But he said... I think you'll find David Cameron went to a few parties. I wouldn't dignify him with rave.

28:53Richard Osman:There's no more Indy statement than I saw the fall at the Hacienda. It's absolutely impossible. He also said, and I don't think, there's two words in this put together, I don't think a single British Prime Minister has ever said before. And that is, he said, talking about the Hacienda, there would be a few members of Inspiral Carpets hanging around. I don't think anyone who's ever been British Prime Minister has ever referenced Inspiral Carpets before. He also talks about meeting Tony Wilson when he was up in Manchester and how they developed quite a close relationship. And Tony Wilson, before Andy Burnham was the King of the North, was probably the King of the North.

29:29Richard Osman:And I saw Andy Burnham described the other day as Harold Wilson meets Tony Wilson, which I thought was very nice. He then goes, here's where we know for a fact that we are going to have an indie kid prime minister. His next album is George Best by The Wedding Present. and again to find out the age of a tree you cut it down and count the rings if you want to know the age of a certain man or woman in this country and they say one of my favorite albums is uh wedding present is george best by wedding present then they were born in 1970 you can almost almost to the month work it out by the way a great album he then goes on to talking of great albums the lars by the lars liverpool band but to but but to be someone who recognizes that lars aren't just There She Goes and to recognise they released one of the great debut albums in the history of music we should do like a bonus on The Lars because they are amazing yeah Billy Bragg yes that's an interesting choice William Bloke the album he's gone for and says Upfield is his favourite song because I mean he's very polarising and again if you were Andy Burnham's Spad you'd be saying oh I don't know are you sure about Billy Bragg but one of our most tender and beautiful songwriters yeah I think you might have thought Chuck one out for the Corbynite.

30:42Richard Osman:Yeah, exactly. Radiohead, OK Computer. I love all the way through this interview in the quietest. It's so good because he's saying, yeah, I saw Radiohead at Glastonbury. He said, and it's just after I lost the leadership election to Corbyn. And you realise that this music, which is sort of the music of your kind of teen years or 20s or, you know, literally these people who've been in the middle of like the hugest stories in British politics are sitting there listening to karma police. And you're thinking, wow, I mean, those lyrics must hit a bit different if you're trying to run the country. Strokes he goes for.

31:18Richard Osman:There's a few more modern things. Big Thief, Capacity, which is an amazing album. There's New Order. But the one I really, really loved is the Cortinas and Falcons. So the Cortinas are huge, you know, one of those bands that the North absolutely, they're like the gods of the North. And he said when he was running for Manchester Mayor, him and Steve Rotherham, who was mayor of Liverpool, they went to see the Cortinas. And he said, there's this song where he says, the lyrics are, I'm only a paper boy from the Northwest, but I can scrub up one in my Sunday best. And he said that really felt like me, because I was, you know, that sounds like me.

31:51Richard Osman:So we were sort of belting this song out, and it really made us feel proud to be from the North. And, you know, this is great guitar music. But that is from a song called, this interview is about two years ago, and that's from a song called Take Over the World. and Andy Burnham said, I love that song and it brings back memories but sadly I didn't go on to take over the world. Well, look at you now, Andy. Well, this is a suggestion that you can never be cool as a politician. Yes, it's an impossibility. I think it is. You can be charismatic and that really matters. And, you know, someone like David Runciman has written really interesting on politicians who are sort of required to be a form of celebrity but also still be trustworthy.

32:29It's interesting actually when I was talking to James Kanagasori about people, celebrities becoming politicians. What we talked about, one of the things we talked about is that because we cycle through these people so quickly, now politicians, celebrities are these kind of great constants in public life. And so in many ways, they are seen as more trustworthy than politicians. And what Andy Burnham has actually genuinely tried to do is create an outsider status for himself, which, by the way, I think coolness almost, it's very, very hard to be cool when you are the figurehead of a system. For sure.

33:03You know, being an outsider is cool. It involves not having to compromise and to be able to dream impossible dreams, whereas politics, I suppose, is the art of the possible and all about compromising. So you can't really.

33:15Richard Osman:It can't be cool. But one thing you can do, and again, you talked to James about it. One thing that is absolutely key is can you be authentic? And I thought the interesting thing going through this list is, so Andy has this kind of image of himself as, you know, oh, I'm just a normal guy and I drink lager and this is the sort of music I like. This interview in The Quietus and this list in The Quietus absolutely 100 % screams to me authenticity. I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting and actually it's quite a niche thing and we're talking about it because we love all those things.

33:46We love music and things like that. The more mainstream things that politicians will try and even authentically attach themselves to. I mean, if you look at Keir Starmer, he plays five-a-side football once a week. He really loves football. He is a completely authentic football fan. He cannot basically hardly even talk about football because it's football as well. But because we're in the middle of the World Cup, it's really interesting. Cass Horowitz, who is a sort of comms guru, he was a comms guru for Rishi Sunak. He did a post on LinkedIn just before the World Cup started saying, politicians, please just don't post about the World Cup this summer.

34:23And he said that talking about football has become the ultimate high stakes authenticity trap because the public immediately assume it's a calculated focus group play to neutralize your elite narrative and prove that you are a regular person. And it's really, honestly, anytime, even politicians who absolutely love football, you'll know, it used to happen much more, just try and stay away from it to some degree, because it just always looks like bandwagoning. And strange as it may seem, we literally do not know, need to know, or certainly don't care what cabinet minister thinks about football. I noticed Farage was doing, he is, by the way, I want to talk about him, actually, because I think he's, in terms of his cultural hinterland, I believe it is, I mean, I talk about the tech.

35:06I've talked about the tech barons not having one. He has absolutely nothing. I once interviewed him and just honestly for something, I think I've talked about this in the podcast before, but I'm going to mention it again because I think it is so weird. I said to him, what's your favourite film? And he literally just couldn't, what was clear is not that he couldn't think what his favourite film would be or what would be a good film to be his favourite film. He couldn't think of the title of a film. And in the end he said, what, you know, that person, and then he remembered Four Weddings and a Funeral, but for some reason he obviously didn't want to say that.

35:35so he said you know the guy who did that so I said Richard Curtis I was like Love Actually he's like yeah Love Actually I was thinking there's just no way that your favourite film is Love Actually there's just no way but also the fact that you couldn't even think of it I mean just say The Great Escape or Dan Busters or something

35:50Richard Osman:Bridge on the River Quiet yeah come on that's easy he literally couldn't think of one I believe he has zero cultural hinterland at all I can't imagine there's a big I think there's some discourse about like why isn't he on Desert Island what would he authentically choose you're telling me that guy ever listens to music, ever watches anything, he doesn't exist. He doesn't have that. If you cannot name a film, and then you literally can't think of the name of a film, it's ridiculous. And so for him, I think the idea of having, whereas for someone like Obama, now Obama you knew had a mega cultural hinterland and they became sort of curators.

36:24Even during the time he would put out stuff of what he was listening to. Was he cool? I don't know. I mean, he was probably the person who most people thought as a politician had something closer to cool than anyone else if he isn't cool and i don't think he

36:38Richard Osman:quite is then it is impossible for a politician yeah to be cool so his yeah his curated music lists are always extraordinary so i think the most recent has kendrick lamar chapel uh rowan rosalia the burner boys on there i mean you know absolutely but again so beautifully curated you kind of think oh is there more than one hand in this i don't know is that there's there's a little bit of everything i quite like andy burnham's list because there's there's sort of not a little bit of everything no it's really just kind of no this and then this and then this and then this um but um yeah I think that if Barack Obama is not cool then no one's ever going to be cool and be a politician some people found him cool all the way through and of course once the you know bits that people couldn't get quite so much on board with like the extra judicial killings and so on have faded into the background and worse has replaced it or whatever then people have a sort of glow about him but he could deliver he could deliver lines brilliantly so when he did things like the white house correspondence dinner and he would do it was like watching the stand up obviously he's a great public speaker but i remember there was one time when i think he did literally just draw the mic at the end of it you're like okay yes really extremely professional and well done but i do think and again we're not this is not uh talking about politics at all but i do think that the one thing you need in the current media climate is authenticity and i just thought it was interesting looking at that list of albums and thinking well certainly in this area He has an authenticity.

38:02Richard Osman:He has an ability to talk with an authenticity. He has, and don't forget, some people just aren't authentic. Some people never find out who they are. And this is a guy who does seem to have a good idea of who he is. And if you can get that across, then it will serve him very well. The Lars versus the Bond market. So I can't wait to find out who wins. Do you know what? Genuinely, I put my money on the Lars. Knowing Lee Mavers, I think I can absolutely see it. Actually, on that album, I owe you. There's a lot about monetary policy in there. if you only know the last from there she goes um then my god have a have a listen to that whole album is just a work of genius he disowned it lee mavers he just can't he went through every great producer there was and just said no this is all terrible this is all this is not what i'm hearing in my head and even now says that the album is awful but um he is wrong about that no it's it's uh it's an extraordinary record and that authenticity means i can definitively answer the question are we about to have our first uh indie kid prime minister yes i believe we are he has he has all the bona fides he has the credentials I'm not by the way making a valid judgment and saying it's a good thing I'm just saying as a 1980s and 90s indie kid myself he is definitely one it's a true thing it's a true thing okay moving on from Andy Burnham Quentin Tarantino I love it when he pops up yes has made another foray into the discourse to say that there have been no good movies this was a couple of weeks ago he said there are no good movies since the lockdown since the pandemic and he said they were all defined movies since then by flaws implausibilities audience pandering miscast performers or just plain stupid shit okay I personally love that he's out there talking about I love all the positions he takes he always sparks something and we'll get on to what he sparks in a minute he does always spark something he you know he's always said I'm only going to make 10 films I personally wish he'd do more I absolutely love it you know what he's doing next though which I could not be more here for yes a play he's doing yeah he's going to write and direct a West End farce set in the 1830s called The Poppin' J Cavalier.

40:02And he's doing it with Sonia Friedman, the fantastic theatre producer and also Sony. So there's some suggestion that Sony Pictures, there's some suggestion that if it takes off then maybe he'll turn that into his final film. And it's for real.

40:15Richard Osman:They're doing table reads at the moment as we speak. So it is definitely for real. Oh, I know. I literally will... I am all over that, OK? And I love that he takes these strong positions, whatever you think about him. and he certainly, he put stuff out there. I don't think he's right. I mean, you know, look at what's happening in horror. There's been lots of good things. By the way, he doesn't think he's right either. He doesn't think he's right. It's just some stupid shit he said. Yeah, exactly. But Gen Z are going to the theatres. We're having a sort of correction from franchise IP in the way that all of these things he would like.

40:48And I think that streaming in a way, TV, and obviously lots of people migrated to television, but television is now so expensive, paradoxically, that a series is going to cost, I don't know, 120 million. You've got to make lots of them. In a way, I think it's an interesting time and a time of flux, and I disagree that there have been no good films since the pandemic. Do we have to do this top three?

41:11Richard Osman:Well, I've got a top three of my favourite films since the pandemic. Do you have a top three? I do. One is a bit of a cheat, but yes. Cheat how? Well, listen, we'll get to it. Okay, number three. Okay, number three. You see, I have to say the numbers now, just because I absolutely don't trust you. Number three, yes, thank you, just because you can't trust even now, is Nope, which had a terrible title, but it is in the horror genre. It's Jordan Peele. It's actually really good, and it's a shame. It's not completely what it is, but it's all about us not filming things and not being able to look away even when it's dangerous.

41:47It's really good, and so it epitomises that. number two i really absolutely loved the souvenir part two and i this is a bit of a small one because lots of people won't have seen this but if you haven't seen joanna hogg's work the souvenir itself is amazing um it's this is a sequel to it um it's a sort of semi-autobiographical story about a young filmmaker and souvenir part two is amazing and number one i am going to say barbenheimer and i know that's unfair but what i want to say that's fine that's okay but it's Because what it showed us is, look at this extraordinary thing. It is a possibility that rose up organically as a phenomenon.

42:26But here is someone making a film about something extreme. I mean, it's Christopher Nolan. The director is the star. He's making something extremely, you know, you're making a film about the Manhattan Project. And then also, here is a movie effectively made in the service of a toy company, but nonetheless manages to be kind of staggeringly original and cool and bring masses of people to the theatre. So I would say that both of those and the phenomenon of them being yoked together was very, very cool. And it showed you a whole range of possibilities within filmmaking.

42:58Richard Osman:So Nope, Souvenir Part 2, Barbenheimer. In some order, but I'll do it in that order. Well, that's the order you've done it. I know, that's fine. So your favourite film was Barbenheimer. Okay, I'm going to say that. Of those three. Because of what it represented, yes. But actually, probably Souvenir Part 2. I'm going to go for three sort of comedies in a way. but I mean all sort of bittersweet comedies Rye Lane is my number three the Rain Alan Miller movie the sort of South London rom-com with David Johnson written by Nathan Bryan and Tom Melia it's a really really really funny cute, charming beautifully made movie that you just think oh how lovely to see something so perfectly formed I've yet to meet anyone who didn't enjoy it number two, I'm going to go for The Holdovers the Alexander Payne movie Paul Giamitti where he's sort of, I think it's set in the early 1970s and he's a teacher who has to look after all the kids who...

43:52Richard Osman:At a boarding school. At a boarding school who don't go home for Christmas. In fact, it's just one kid in the end. And it's, again, really, really, really beautiful movie. And number one, it won't surprise you, I haven't gone for Barbenheimer, I've gone for The Ballad of Wallace Island. Oh, I knew you were going to do that, yeah. Tom Baston and Tim Key. It's such a beautiful, funny film. But there's three films there, none of which outstay their welcome, all of which have just beautiful writing, beautiful performances. None of which cost crazy amounts of money at all. And I absolutely get what Tarantino says because he has a very visceral approach to filmmaking.

44:23Richard Osman:He wants something new and spectacular and something that shocks him and surprises him. And none of these movies would do that to him. But all of these movies, if you're a writer or if you have any sort of love in your heart, I think you would enjoy all three of them. OK, so now to get on to what it sparked. Obviously, the minute he says something like this, everyone's like, great, this is a hook for us to publish lots of lists of things that are actually good, like we've just done. But what I want to say about that and this new idea of these lists coming out all the time, this is now like a genre, a vertical.

44:53It is an entire permanently reiterating editorial product. Really interesting appointment very recently. The New York Times has appointed someone called Gilbert Cruz to be their head of canon. Now, he used to run the book review section. There's a very small, some people say, oh maybe he didn't do so well on the book review section is he being sort of moved aside but actually this is a whole new job they've never had a head of canon before now in terms of what is canon

45:20Richard Osman:it's like the civil war yeah I know the word itself has been invented sort of it's gone over many many times it started actually in the 1300s where canon meant the collection of books of the bible that were accepted by the Christian church as genuine and inspired by the 20th century it sort of meant the classics and fandoms talk about canon, the sort of body of works taking place in their particular fictional world that they can't, and that started really, the Manchester Guardian apparently in 1933 had said, oh, just because a story contains the word elementary, my dear Watson, it doesn't mean it's part of the official Sherlock Holmes canon.

45:59And you've got all these fandoms to watch Star Wars, is this canon, is this just off canon, whatever it is. But the New York Times has appointed someone for this to do this job permanently, which seems odd. But these lists now form a huge amount of what you read online. And we used to have lists. They didn't exist in the same way. We would have power lists. You know, people do a media power list like once a year, but it was kind of niche. It was almost industry or you'd get trade publications doing them or you'd get, you know, the Sunday Times rich list. Then you'd have the listicle era, BuzzFeed and all those sort of things.

46:33but it is now one of the most important things in digital media and it's happened very, very quickly and you'll notice this happens all the time. And what they are really saying, the New York Times, is that the most successful products, cultural products that they produce are not criticism any longer. They are these giant definitive lists, these proprietary rankings of books or films or restaurants or whatever it is. I'm all in favour. Yeah, and it's become a huge market movie. You know, these books, once they say, you know, the top 50 books of this century or whatever it is, they reprint with that on the cover.

47:12They're not just quick listicles. You'll notice that something's changed. It's not just a kind of quick thing. You've got to get buy-in from all your biggest critics and from, you know, say you're doing movies. You get directors to cut it. And this was the panel that chose this. But what you're creating there is something. First of all, they're obviously saying this is one of our most important business products that we create. And what you're saying as well is this is an evergreen piece of updatable content. They are a mass market content format now and they do so much better than reviews. The Guardian does this a lot.

47:46You'll notice that they have the 20 best somethings ranked. And those always perform incredibly well. Furthermore, they last longer. They're sort of evergreen. Then they sit on your site and people come back and back to them and they use them as a form of curation. And that thing that we keep talking about, taste, and how taste is becoming in such a sort of noisy and crowded world, really important. These kind of big legacy media brands are moving increasingly into these things where you can keep updating the list and you can change it and it can become. But these are the most significant cultural products they produce, not criticism and reviews any other.

48:24Richard Osman:Yeah, because, you know, we have enough canon now in various different areas that the new has become slightly less interesting and less important. And actually just constant ways of dipping into the old, I think, is fascinating. I did that Guardian top 100 books thing where you had to do your, you know, 10 favorite books. And when they put it out, the comments underneath were just, they go, oh my God, where's this? Where's X? And actually, funnily enough, the Guardian had done it in quite a smart way. They've got loads and loads of writers. Stephen King, all sorts of people did it. And not only could you look at the top 100, but you could click on any person you wanted and read their top 10 and read their comments about it.

49:01Richard Osman:So people say, where's X, where's Y? You think, well, there's going to look in some of the lists. You don't have to just look at the top 100. That's literally just, you know, everyone's votes are put together. That's why Middlemarch is number one. I know you think it's boring, but like a lot of writers, for whatever reason, don't think it's boring. and like my top 10 I have middle march on it but there was only two of my top 10 were in the top 100 so but you can click on mine and look through my favorite 10 books and you know that's useful to people I know I know I mean I'm someone who will always buy the book that's out this week but most people want to look back through 200 years of literature and go what shouldn't I read you know that when the New York Times did it some best books of the 21st century and you know I'd looked through that and that's where I discovered Lonesome Dove.

49:47Richard Osman:Or that's when I realized, oh, I really should read Lonesome Dove. And I've been banging on about how brilliant that is. And that was, funnily enough, in my top ten. And someone said to me, why is everyone talking about Lonesome Dove all of a sudden? And I think because it was in that list. It's a really, really good way of rediscovering things. It's a really good way of discovering things that maybe kind of passed you by a bit. And if you look at writers like, you know, Barbara Pym, for example, but who's been, you know, rediscovered her brilliant things for the second time. But, you know, a lot of that is from lists.

50:18Richard Osman:A lot of that is from people saying, you know, what are the 10 most overlooked novels? Who are the 10 writers we should read? Not everyone wants to say The Great Gatsby. Sometimes people would like to say, yeah. You want to recommend things that you think actually, or maybe people won't know this. I mean, I love the list. But the search traffic stays so gold for the publishers who are publishing these things. Because people say, what are the best books of all time? Can you help me out here? Yeah. So it's really interesting that these lists have actually become enormous and huge. And I think that's not going to be the last head of canon, you see.

50:52Richard Osman:Yeah, well, funnily enough, he sent me an email, which I thought was spam. So Gilbert Cruz is the guy's name. Yeah, Gilbert Cruz. Yeah, asking about the best crime novels all the time. I thought it was spam. You better dig it out of your inbox. Gilbert, I apologise. I had not realised that. But it also leads me on neatly to I'm doing some bonus episodes, which are essentially what is the best ever US sitcom. What's the best ever UK game show? But I'm doing it in my traditional World Cup thing. I'll have a couple of guests on. We'll talk about all the best things there possibly are and find a winner.

51:22Richard Osman:The first one we're doing is US sitcoms. What's the best ever US sitcom? And because the great James Burroughs passed away this week who directed Friends and Frasier and Cheers, and did more than direct those things as well. So we're going to find John Robbins and Maisie Adam are joining me. We're going to find the greatest US sitcom. That one, I think we're going to make free to everyone. After that, it's for members. Oh, I'm dying for that. Yes, I think it's going to be an awful lot of fun. Listen, I mean, you know, we talked about authenticity just now. I cannot be authentic without saying I love a list.

51:57Richard Osman:I love putting things against each other and seeing what wins. Well, so does the market. Yeah, so does the World Cup. Yeah. Recommendations? Do you know what? Ingrid is filming at the moment and she's, I can't say what in, but she's being an astronaut. And so we've been watching lots of astronaut things just to see what they're like when they're in their craft. And we watched Return to Space, which is about the growth of SpaceX. And I absolutely loved it. It's really, really extraordinary. There's quite a lot of Elon Musk in it. And actually, there's quite a lot of Elon Musk acting like a human being in it and showing some emotion, but also sort of showing what it is that he's achieved there.

52:42Richard Osman:But the main thing about it is the astronauts and the people behind the scenes, the technicians and the people who work on this stuff. I just, it makes you realise what an extraordinary endeavour going to space is and what a team you need to do that. So I absolutely love that, Return to Space. And that's on Netflix. I thought it was absolutely fascinating. I loved it. How about you? oh my god i can't believe the pettiness of mine compared to the oh great of that okay i want to recommend a trailer which i sent to you on your holiday and i sincerely hope you watched uh please can you just everyone watch the trailer for a new national geographic documentary docudrama maybe yeah in uh which i think it's going to be on disney plus in which tom hiddleston is playing time detective to go back and solve the mystery of the final hours of pompeii i think it's called pompey out of time i'm going to find a way of making you do a full item on it because it's if if you are a ironic admirer of tom hiddleston's intensity as i am there is so much to enjoy in this trailer that i just want you know let's do your homework guys and then we can talk and i'm just going to find a way of forcing it and the other thing i would like to recommend you're not just going to recommend a trailer no i'm going to recommend roy keen being our Roy Keane's rant on, he was asked by Gary Neville on the overlap, that their podcast to put something into sort of football room 101.

54:08And he chose Wags, who put their husband's names on the back of the shirt and then photographed themselves. It's so special. Judge Roy Keane has allowed that for the children of players. He was like, we know who you're married to. You'll be separated within a year. I love you, Roy Keane. I love you. it's just it's very special

54:28Richard Osman:Roy Keane is sort of the Quentin Tarantino of football absolutely yeah so our bonus episode this week Marina is the final episode of the vibe shift the series I did with James Kanagas and it's about the sort of end of peak woke and where things are going now it's really interesting and if you want to be a member it's therestlesentertainment.com you get all those bonus episodes you get ad-free listening all of that stuff as always you do not have to be a member and for everyone else we will see you for a Q &A on Thursday see you on Thursday

55:10Richard Osman:hello everyone we've got some exciting news to share with the listeners of the rest is entertainment we do indeed we are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third of the regular price that's right with the code summer 26 you can head to therestisentertainment.com and claim an annual membership with this brilliant discount. So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama, behind-the-scenes stories and industry gossip but have none of the ads and why wouldn't you, it is a no-brainer. Plus you can catch up with all of the archive of our members-only shows you may have missed, including Marina's latest series of Vibe Shift.

55:42And we've got lots more of those special series planned, but remember this deal will only run until the end of August, so don't wait around, head to therestisentertainment.com now. Legally, we can't say drinking Storm makes you smarter and more focused. But with zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine and immunity support, you're smarter and more focused for drinking Storm. Storm. Good energy in, good energy out. Energy for life.