Another music site bites the dust and will women's creative value be recognised?

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1:09Hello and welcome to another episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hey, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm really well. We've got some fun things to talk about. The first thing we're going to talk about today I'm excited about because it's Brooklyn Beckham, who I'm obviously aware of. He's in my sights. He's always been in my peripheral vision. What can't he do, Richard? What can't he do? He's got something new on the horizons, which we will get fully into. We shall find out. We're also going to talk about women in Hollywood and why women sort of buy all the books.

1:40They make all the good films now. And yet Hollywood still won't make films with them at the helm. They've completely dominated music as well over the last 12 months. So we'll talk about that. And finally, we are going to talk about, still in the area of music, that a pitchfork, which was a hugely influential music publication, music criticism publication, has essentially been shuttered as we know it and it's being folded into GQ by its new owners, Condé Nast, and I will try and explain why I think you should really care about this. We're going to talk about magazines folding. Yeah. Shall we start with Brooklyn Beckham?

2:14Let's not. That's a lovely way to start a show. Okay. Now, Brooklyn's had, at the age of 24, he's had a number of careers already. I literally can't wait to read his crime novel. Former model, footballer, former footballer, former photographer, former monograph author, and now chef. What can't you do? What can't you do? Now, Brooklyn has teamed up for a collaboration with Uber Eats. He's had quite a lot of trolling online and people saying this is ridiculous for his cooking skills. Anyhow, but according to Uber Eats, I'm going to actually read you this from the press release, Uber Eats host Brooklyn Beckham is reimagining the food delivery status quo.

2:51Now, let me tell you how he's doing that. Status quo are involved as well. Yes. Okay, now I'm interested. They've got you now. Uber Eats' general manager says the company is very excited to be working with one of the world's most talked about foodies. Which in some ways doesn't actually commit to a position on either side of it. But anyhow, let me tell you what he's doing. He's doing a pop-up restaurant where five dishes created by Brooklyn will be available for precisely two days this week. Between the hours of 5pm and 10pm. To London customers only. And actually on the first of those days, only if you're like an Uber Eats premier customer.

3:25So I don't think we're talking about the launch of the Hard Rock Cafe here in terms of like a sort of international concern. However, would you like to know the dishes that he's doing, Brooklyn? That Brooklyn's doing? Yeah. Yes, please. Chicken tikka masala, 15 quid. Nanny Peggy's English breakfast sandwich, 12. Nanny Peggy's English breakfast sandwich. It's an English breakfast in a sandwich. Is it a serving suggestion or is it a recipe? That will be one for those who order it to debate. Deep fried buttermilk cauliflower,£10. Prawn and pork dumplings, tenner for five dumplings. And spag bol at 15.

3:59Will he be cooking them personally? I'm guessing yes. You're guessing wrong, Richard. He will be represented by actual chefs. But what I love is that Uber Eats told the Evening Standard that, don't worry, Brooklyn will be compensated for his time and involvement in the campaign. Oh, my God. That's what I was going to ask. I was going to say, please, God, tell me he's getting a lot of money for it. So, yeah, I think he does get quite a lot of money for all these things. So there has obviously been quite a lot of resentment. He's talked a little bit about doing this particular campaign. He's trying to move into the food space with some form of venture or another.

4:35He's copyrighted a number of things. I think hot sauce labels, sweatshirts, NFTs, everything you'd expect. but he has taken quite a lot of heat as it were for this latest one of his careers. He's only 24 I should say. I think it would probably be better if someone said to him look it's fine to have hobbies. It's absolutely fine to have them. Then again he is making a huge amount of money from each of the hobbies that have become a... But here's the interesting thing. That Uber Eats thing, firstly we're talking about it. Secondly lots of people are talking about it. Thirdly it will sell out. Now why is that?

5:13Well, as one of London's most committed ironists, if you don't think I've got a calendar alert in my phone for 5pm on Thursday, then you don't know me very well because I will be one of the people buying it just to see. So, yes, the reason I guess we're talking about this is because it's a sort of way into Nepo babies, which will probably phrase you to see quite a lot these days. I sort of feel Nepo babies, I think we have made progress on Nepo babies. Bear in mind that in the sort of late Middle Ages, Nepo babies were being given things like bishoprics. Yes. There was a whole point in the history of the British Empire where people would say, you know, what are we going to do with Johnny?

5:47You know, his brother's going in the House of Lords, obviously, because he's the elder. He's a semi-adequate middle-order batsman and he likes to drink. How about he runs 50 ,000 square miles of India? That's what we used to do with Nepo babies. They used to have an ambassadorship, not a brand ambassadorship. I think so, yeah. But you used to send them on the grand tours, do you, in the old days? I mean, they're all family. They're all Nepo babies. The original Nepo babies. And we're comfortable with them. On that David Beckham documentary which we've spoken about, he comes across rather well, Brooklyn Beckham.

6:14Oh, you think he's perfectly sweet. He seems a very, very sweet guy. And what else is he going to do? The whole point is, as you say, if your father was landed gentry and owned Hampshire, then that's what you would do. Now, Brooklyn Beckham happens to be in a position where his father was one of the greatest footballers of all time. And his mum was in one of the biggest selling music acts of all time and then became an enormously successful fashion designer. Neither of which, you can't really follow in the family footsteps. You can't go, my dad used to play for England, so I'm going to play for England.

6:45But he's got to do something. And if people are willing to throw money his way, you know, at least... And they are. He had an online show called Cooking with Brooklyn, where each episode cost something like$100 ,000 per episode. And it looked like it was thrown together. Probably 62 people were involved in each episode, you know. Having said all that, Richard, I do think that people... Obviously, it's the level at which you go into these things that people can't really stand. I mean, as I say, it's fine to have a hobby. You don't necessarily have to make a business out of it. And he had a photography book, which is...

7:17I was going to ask you about that. It's iconic. Yeah, OK. For ironness, it is iconic. He had a photography book, a monograph, called Brooklyn Beckham, What I See. And the most notorious caption is a sort of... There's a picture of some background and then a big black thing right in the sort of centre of the frame, which you can't see. and the caption is elephants in Kenya so hard to photograph but incredible to see I kind of admire I admire the hustle there's another one which is a really out of focus photo of Victoria Beckham's birthday in a restaurant and the caption was I like this picture it's out of focus but you can tell there's a lot going on you see everything he's doing is what anyone else his age would be doing it's absolutely not his fault in any way whatsoever No, this book was launched at Christie's.

8:02It's not really his fault, but I think it probably is our culture's fault. Well, there's something about the culture about, in fact, we might get onto it when we talk about magazines, about how there is no grand culture anymore. Everything is siloed. And so, you know, if you can get 100 ,000 people to really, really, really like something, then you're profitable. And, you know, you can certainly do that. And so these big organizations, of course, they jump on board. And I sort of think there's something not quite right. Listen, we were on a plane recently and there was an amazing group of women, all of whom were makeup influencers.

8:35And they were flying out to New York and being flown out there by some big company. And I thought this is so great because they were smart, they were funny, they were obviously making their own money in a really good way. They were providing a service that people were enjoying. One of them was putting on her mascara during turbulence on camera. Respectful work. So I think absolutely fair play. So that world of influences, I get people, when someone's got a skill and they're doing something and connects with people, I think it's a perfectly valid way to make a living. The Nepo baby thing is slightly harder, isn't it?

9:06Because it's questionable as to whether he would be where he was without his parents. I believe that it's answerable, actually. I don't think it's questionable. My question is, would he be? Your answer is? No, I just don't think you'd quite have made it. But again, and it's an older brother thing. The younger kids seem very chill. But he's the oldest and his parents are such high achievers. He's got to do something, hasn't he? He's got to find his way in the world and find a way of being himself. It's just, yeah, it leaves an uncomfortable taste, the fact that there's money he's making. Well, it's so often in industries that other people really struggle to get ahead on.

9:43And it's in difficult industries and that's what really sort of gets to people. Well, acting is the crazy one. I mean, acting is all Nepo, but it always has been. Yes. All of these people are Nepo babies, all of whom we would consider legends. So forget all the kids now who get slagged off. George Clooney, Nepo Baby. Jamie Lee Curtis, of course. Ben Stiller, Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, Charlie Sheen, Laura Dern. Michael Douglas is an 80-year-old Nepo Baby. But Hollywood, it's a town that's entertainment and you work in the family industry. Britain's greatest Nepo Babies. Mattie Healy, lead singer of the 1975.

10:19And did you go out with Taylor Swift? Twice out with her. Once very briefly and once fleetingly briefly. Oh, there's a career in that. So he is the son of Tim Healy. He used to play Dennis in Alfie de Zane Pitt. And Denise Welsh from Loose Women. But that's not Nepo, baby. Because they are not able to get you into the rock world. No. I think what he's done there is written some songs that people liked. And sung them and then sold records. Also, Barney Walsh, who hosts, as we know, Gladiators with Bradley Walsh. Yes. I felt he was worse this week than he was in the first week. he's almost like a radio active isotope he's getting worse at quite an extreme sort of half life of quality presenting I like him, I like the two of them together but do you know the greatest Nepo babies in Britain, I tell you Paul and Sophie from Gogglebox who are the niece and nephew of the Chuckle Brothers Really?

11:10Hey, that's how they got where they are today That's good though, isn't it? That is fantastic, I did not know that fact That's our version of Kirk Douglas and Michael Douglas Yeah, so much better Okay, obviously I will be sampling Brooklyn's food as cooked by representatives of him, and I will get back to you on how it tasted next week. I cannot wait. Well, you'll have to, and we'll be back very shortly after this break. I refuse to. I refuse to go to an advert. I won't do it. You're going to an advert now. Raise the rudders! Raise the sails! Raise the sails! Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.

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13:43Welcome back, everybody. We want to talk now about, there's an interesting trend in the last few years that women tend to be dominating pretty much every cultural field, music, books, movies. And yet they don't seem to be dominating the economic realities behind those industries. Does that sound too blurry a focus? It doesn't. I was reading, because you were telling me about this particular phenomenon, that women had dominated the UK's music scene in 2023. and they accounted for the most weeks of number one since the inception of the charts in 1952. And it's quite clear that you're kind of living in an era of female artist domination and the biggest, biggest people, and obviously you're looking at things like Taylor Swift and Beyonce's tours, which they've become these kind of phenomenal brands.

14:30Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo. Yes, exactly. And the book charts, tell me about that, because this is your specialism and not mine. Well, yeah, the book charts. I mean, see, that's the interesting thing, is women tend to consume more stuff and certainly books books fiction books it's almost 66 to 33 percent female dominated readers yeah and the biggest books bonnie garmas gabriella zevin i mean sarah j mass rebecca yaros all of these people selling absolutely bundles of books and my experience just in in the publishing industry it's very very very um female dominated when we were selling Thursday Murder Club you go on a sort of beauty pageant of the companies who've offered on the book and I think we met five companies and they all had all their heads of department would come in and chat to you and there were 40 people we met that day and one of them was a man gosh 39 women but at the end of three different meetings the head head head head of the publishers came in to say hi and all three of them were men now I'll say this about all three of those men they are they're all brilliant they are i mean they're good you know they're really really good but there was also a number of really really really good women around that table and publishing has been quite female heavy for a long time so it's not like oh you know certain industries say yeah but we need the supply chain you know you know the women who entered into this industry in the 90s need to be becoming the ceos books have had that for a long time but why is this we think Now, in movies, there's incredible female stars and female directors.

16:06But again, it's such a financially a male dominated industry. Completely. The biggest movies, I guess, of 2023 were, with the exception of Barbie, all directed by men. But that also means that the biggest flops of the year were also directed by men. And so you're looking at things like The Flash, Indiana Jones, The Dial of Destiny, Mission Impossible, Dead Reckoning, whatever our Fast Transformers iteration we're now on. These all did really quite badly. And it's interesting. There was a really interesting article on Puck the other day, which said which was kind of taking a look and saying that actually the biggest hits of the last five months have been without exception, female driven, female skewing.

16:45So you've got Mean Girls, which, by the way, just this weekend has had its second week at the top of the box office. You've got The Colour Purple. Sorry, that's not, I guess you wouldn't say maybe that's a massive hit so far in the UK. But you would have Taylor Swift and Beyonce's concert films, which were huge. Hunger Games Ballad of Song of Birds and Snakes. And Wonka, which is definitely female skewing. And actually quite a lot of these have got a sort of funny thing that they're doing at the moment, the movie studios, which is that they're musicals. But the trailer doesn't tell you it's a musical.

17:15And so they kind of hide what's called the musicality of the film. So it's interesting. But, you know, Catherine Bigelow won an Oscar for her locker. She was the first woman to win a Best Directing Oscar in 2008. The pace of change has been very slow, really. That women, I mean, if you look, things like Mamma Mia grossed more than Iron Man. And people sort of say, oh, yeah, that's a blip. That's a blip. They always explain these kind of female kind of big, big hits as a blip. and then they say these things, what we call a four-quadrant movie, which is what a film industry term for, it appeals to all four quadrants of the supposed movie-going demographic.

17:53What are the four quadrants? Males over 25, males under 25, women over 25 and women under 25. Those don't feel like quadrants. They don't, of course, they just feel like everyone in the world. Well, there is everyone, but also quadrants should be equal. Men and women over 25, there's loads of them. Yes. There's hardly anyone under 25 anymore, isn't there? Well, what they're trying to do is, and you get these kind of quite black, you know, this is why superhero franchise, high concept, things like this, fantasy things. Yes, they've tried to appeal to literally everybody. And because they spend such enormous amounts of money on these movies that you kind of need everybody to be able to consider themselves as part of the potential audience.

18:26And everything has to be hit in Hollywood now, doesn't it? Everything has to. Because they launched so few films. And because they spend so much. You know, if you're spending$350 million on a movie, then you've kind of got everyone to go and see it. The kind of death of the$60 million budget movie means that it has to be absolutely massive. But the pace of change has been very slow, as I said. One of the things that's quite interesting is, yeah, what you were talking about earlier is, do men want to invest, as in proper serious, like almost venture capital type of money, into women or men who are not like them?

18:59I was talking to someone in the hairdressing world the other day and he said something really interesting. He said, you tell me why, in a business that is totally dominated by women and gay men, the only four people to ever have made big big serious money out of hairdressing are straight men okay Fidel Sassoon, John Frieda, Nicky Clark, Frederick Fikai and I was like and he said you know what I just he said I think they kind of see you as decorative and they don't they they like having you might be fun to have around but they don't want to give you their big dollars to invest in your company make a huge kind of international business and there's a lot to be said about that in Hollywood as well.

19:36Women have always been essential to the movie making process and they were actually essential to the development of film in the first place. But in terms of getting the big bucks and big investments, we continue to invest in these male-led tentpole movies that is a bit of a worry because if you think of those for the last five months of which of these female skewing movies have made all the money, what's on the slate coming up in the next year is more of these tentpole movies because it's a little bit like the old supertanker it's quite hard to turn around it takes so long to make these things that in the pipeline are all these other kind of marvel movies all the sort of similar things are coming down the line that there is really no guarantee that there's going to be a return on it and i think that it would be great if they suddenly started thinking that they might back women a little bit more and get and maybe just dispense with the idea that every movie has to be a four quadrant movie all i'm thinking is i'd like to watch a movie about a supertanker that's what I'm thinking no but it's exactly right I mean Jason Statham stars hold on Jason Statham in Supertanker yeah I mean that's this is sort of the movie I'm talking about isn't it but yeah that's really good I'm so looking forward to Supertanker 4 that's a two quadrant movie yeah Supertanker 4 180 degrees but it's exactly right that women are by and large have become the audience the influencers as to what films do well and yet So many Fast and Furiouses, Indiana Jones, all these things.

21:01Another flop this year, effective flop. There's a sensibility in lots of industries, which is male skewing art is default art. And you have to break away from that to make something that appeals to women. And I think it's probably the other way around. I totally agree. It's not a niche genre. It's way more than 50 % of your audience. Things women like is not a niche genre. and in fact throughout the whole of history things women like tend to be the things that make the most money. It's a fascinating one. Books I genuinely find interesting. I like the meritocracy of the thing that the book charts are 66 % women and that books are read 66 % of the time by women.

21:45I think that's great but there's been a lot written in books recently. Three or four years in a row all the big book prizes every single person on the shortlist was a woman. There and no male, no men on any of those shortlists and people started going, what's happened to the male novel? And you think, I think the male novel's okay. I think, I think. Fears for the male novel. Yeah, no, I think it'll. I think it's going to be good. And TV, like the biggest stars, Claudia Winkerman, Alison Hammond, you know, people, they can make a show watchable for everybody and it takes such a long time to turn that around.

22:20I mean, people were quite hotly defending the fact that now of those big Saturday night shows, there are no women hosting any of those ones in that big slot. I can't remember what they all are, Gladiators, Michael McIntosh. It's all men, with the exception of Claudia doing Traitors when it's on. Exactly, and Strictly. Yeah. When it's on, but again, yeah. What's your view of what's going to happen, though? Do you think that all of that money, the real money that gets made, which is venture capital money, which is studio money, which is publisher money, do you think that's going to start getting diverted 66 % to women?

22:56Well it is the smart business decision it's almost like it reminds me almost of that kind of Moneyball sort of thing where you have to forget everything you think you know which was Moneyball with famously the Michael Lewis book about the Oakland A's and the coach Billy Bean who starts kind of scouting players and he dispenses mostly what people did was think does this person look like a ball player? And in fact he thinks no no I'm going to do it all by the maths and he has incredible success with this team that having discounted all those kind of things that you come to the business of scouting or whatever with, thinking, yeah, does this person look like me?

23:27Does this person look like the type of person who would do well in this particular team role or whatever it is? And I think, actually, they need to unlearn lots of those things and actually just to look at the pure mass of it all, to get some sort of financial analyst to explain this is where the dollars are going. Because to a huge extent, movies has been such an odd business. You never know what's going to work. Nobody knows anything. the famous dictum William Goldman said about Hollywood. And there were certain bankers in the business. And actually, this is quite an interesting thing. Disney.

23:57Disney has always been female skewing. I'm not including some of the things they've bought under their umbrella, Star Wars, Marvel. But things like Pixar and the Disney catalogue of its own hits that they're now sort of remining and making as live action. It's really interesting that none of those hits that I mentioned earlier in this item have come from Disney. And, you know, Disney have had loads of misses. I remember seeing them at Comic-Con like a couple of years ago. And the guy said, you know, announcing the things on the slate said, have you ever wondered how the wishing star, the one that so many Disney characters wished upon, came to be?

24:34Answer, no, please, dummy, you haven't made a film about it. But they have. And you see that they're getting down to sort of dregs. It's like, why don't you just sort of back some people to make something interesting? obviously Greta Gerwig was as I've said before on the podcast I do have a slight problem with the fact that it was all done in the service of Mattel the big toy corporation but she did something really clearly phenomenal and amazing with it and the idea that women can't do these things and that there isn't the audience must surely just on the numbers alone be dispensed with I think so, I think that when you have, industries by and large tend to be, certainly the movie industry tend to be run by people who are maybe 20, 30 years into their career.