Backrooms: Has YouTube Just Saved Hollywood?

21:37Richard Osman:Now do rom-coms YouTube, please. That I'd like to see. Or heist movies. Oh, that's what I'd like. Come on YouTubers, do some heist movies. There's not enough heist movies around. Verticals will do heist movies. Yeah, vertical heist movie in the tower block. And you've seen Obsession as well. Yes, I really recommend seeing both films.

22:00this episode is brought to you by Lloyds now I love it when characters are part of the club you wouldn't know anything about that would you Richard?

22:07Richard Osman:The Thursday murder club in some ways reminds me of the A-team I now would like to map each of those characters onto the A-team and feel I probably could I mean Elizabeth is Hannibal and it's not even close yeah that's exactly right and Ron is howling mad Murdoch well there are definite perks to being in a club just ask the members of Club Lloyds because with Club Lloyds you can bank on Lloyds to give you more wherever you are. If you join Club Lloyds there's all sorts of benefits you can choose between there's for example six free cinema tickets. They've got an annual coffee club and gourmet society membership which would be mine.

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23:09Join myself, Alan and Micah for daily debates, unfiltered takes, and the most special of guests, all from the heart of New York City. Yeah, that's right. We're excited too. See you soon. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the Unreal College Deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom colour Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th.

23:50Terms at aka.ms slash college pc.

23:59Richard Osman:Welcome back, everybody. Now, Mobland. Tom Hardy, should he stay or should he go? What's going on there, Marina? There is drama on the set of Mobland. A drama. This is the Paramount show about an Irish crime family in London that was co-created by Ronan Bennett and Guy Ritchie, who directed some of the episodes of the first season. The showrunner and EP is Jez Butterworth. One of our great playwrights. Yeah, one of our great, yeah. It stars Tom Hardy, but also Helen Mirren and Pierce Brosnan. Friends of mine. It's kind of held together by, I would say, having watched it by the Tom Hardy performance.

24:35Anyway, but it's a huge hit for Paramount, really big hit for them. However, there's been some fallout. I read last week that Tom Hardy had been fired from Mobland. It was a sudden spilling out of all this stuff. Tom Hardy was said to be very angry. He didn't love the scripts. He didn't love that it was becoming more of an ensemble piece. And his anger manifested itself. Again, all of this is reportedly and allegedly, because you'll see how undermined it becomes later on in the story. It manifested itself by him apparently offering lots of script notes on Jez Batwa's scripts. Ronan Bennett and Jez Butterworth co-wrote the whole of the first season I don't know if that's the but anyway

25:12Richard Osman:and by the way for season two which is this is what we're talking just as a recap Jez Butterworth wrote Jerusalem he wrote some of the best plays of this century he's been a writer forever Ronan Bennett wrote Top Boy you know again these are both people at the absolute top of their profession Tom Hardy a great actor yeah so I don't know who do you take the script notes from I would say the script writers he's well he was staying in his trailer apparently and he was being late for Pierce Brosnan and Helen Mirro. Don't be late for Pierce and Helen. It was described as career suicide. Anyway, the lateness thing supposedly particularly annoyed Dame Helen in some highly dubious bystander quotes that I read in the Daily Mail.

25:52Richard Osman:Do you mean made up? Well, I'm just saying this is an insider who talks like all tabloid insiders. Oh, that's interesting. She expects better. She holds people to a high standard. She's 80. She's been there and seen it all. the behind the scenes crew watch it all and believe that she no longer looks as happy working on scenes with him. It has all become quite personal between them. It's got a very interesting way of talking. It's like she's in Howard's End or something. I agree. She talks exactly like a tabloid bystander or it could have been a man. In fact, it would have been a man. We're going to get to that later.

26:20But Helen Mirren then unfortunately put a picture on Instagram of Tom Hardy and she said, love you now and always which seems to me like the bystander had got things a little bit wrong about the relationship those two.

26:33Richard Osman:That's unlike a bystander. Also, it seems that maybe Tom Hardy hasn't actually been fired and that the producers are going to have a sit down with him and maybe they can work it all out. Richard, I would say two things. First, that this is very unusual that this much stuff has come out into the open. Yeah. And second, that this drama is so much better than Mod Bland. I mean, just enjoy it, right? I mean it's very very watchable this particular drama I you know I which I don't necessarily feel about Mobland I've not seen Mobland I have to say that I'll say this which is try and imagine the maker feel by election but in a T in a fictional TV show set in about some Irish gangs in London it's sort of like that or you know like those the thing I did notice this there's some big personalities involved Jess Butterworth is a big personality Guy Ritchie is a big personality Tom Hardy is a big personality.

27:22Richard Osman:There are 12 executive producers on that show. Let me count how many of them are men. Hold on. One, two, three, four. All 12 of them are men. And you sense, that's the trouble often with men. If you get a group of men in a room, they get so emotional. Well, that's what I, you see. They get so dramatic. Listen, I'm a huge supporter of the experiment, if I can call it that, of men in the workplace. I'm a huge supporter of it. I've been thrilled that they've had a go. But I do sometimes wonder if they're too emotional for the performing arts. And I don't want to say that because, you know, I love to think that people can buck their biology.

27:56But can they really have it all, Richard? It doesn't look like it. Can they have it all? No. There's so much testosterone on that set. If I walked on that set, I would grow a beard. Literally, just by osmotically, I would absorb it. Actually, there's some misconception about Tom Hardy and Guy Ritchie and Jess Butterworth. They don't actually have beards. They're clean shaven every single morning. And by lunchtime, they've got these fulsome things that you see them in. because there's so much testosterone on that set.

28:21Richard Osman:The same with Guy Ritchie and Tom Hardy's accents. Yes. You talk to lots of people who went to school with them. And they're like, oh, that's interesting. They used to speak like that. Yeah, they didn't used to wear those caps. Something in the waters or in the something. And as I say, I mean, it's very, very watchable. We don't know how this will play out other than, you know, as I say, I would love the experiment of men in the workplace to continue. So I hope everyone can work this out. but it's you know it's happened lots of times before it's interesting if an actor is really badly behaved that's what we're talking about here when the story first comes out you're like oh my god he must have been so badly behaved because if you've got a big star like Tom Hardy and he is brilliant I mean he's so watchable in everything he does look at him in Peaky Blinders and all sorts of things he can really carry pretty much any scene he's in so if you've got him in your show then you're delighted and the same with it if you've got Pearson Helen there as well you're delighted but you want to keep him in your show if you're paramount because they need these big shows that go on and on and on.

29:17Exactly that. And you build up big libraries as they did with Yellowstone. So you think, wow,

29:21Richard Osman:you must have done something really, really awful. When the news first came out it said that he'd definitely been fired. Now, of course, everyone's slightly backtracking and going, we're going to sit around a table and do this or the other. So maybe it was just a warning shot because it doesn't happen very often that actors get replaced. Charlie Sheen, when he got replaced on Two and a Half, I mean, the stuff he had to do to get fired was completely insane. But you can see that on these, on another Paramount show, look what happened on, Yellowstone, eventually Taylor Sheridan, Kevin Costner. Again, you know, I'm just wondering about that hormone, but there was so much butting of heads that he wasn't there for the end, Kevin Costner.

29:57Richard Osman:Chevy Chase on Community, again, I mean, you have to really, really do, I mean, any, always read about Community, I think that was a troubled set in lots and lots of different ways. And I love the show so much, it's amazing what came out of it. Yeah, it really is amazing. Isaiah Washington and Patrick Dempsey on Grey's Anatomy, I mean, any of these shows. Or they've had a few. Yeah, any of these shows that are ensembles, because that's the thing with actors, is I think it's quite hard for them. If they've got something that's an enormous success, it's quite hard for them to accept that success might not be down to them.

30:26Richard Osman:I think Katherine Hagel was nominated for an Emmy for Grey's Anatomy, and she publicly asked to have her name removed because the work she had been given to do wasn't good enough. She's saying to Shonda Rhimes, no, this is tat. She did later admit that that was perhaps slightly unclassy. but yeah it's quite hard Roseanne Barr is another one that they you know essentially she came back and then they removed her immediately replaced her with every single other person came back from that show they renamed it The Conners and you know it continued but you really have to do something pretty spectacular as an actor to get replaced on something so I guess we'll watch this space with Tom Hardy and Mobland but I'm just As I said it's very entertaining just enjoy it Yeah exactly but it is you just think maybe one executive producer who's a woman might be helpful.

31:18Richard Osman:Do you know, by the way, the connection between Mobland and Backrooms that we talked about earlier? No, I don't. So in Backrooms, there are two characters who work with Chetel Ejiofor in the furniture store. You know the young stoner guy? Yeah. He is not American. He's English. He's Finn Bennett, and he is the son of Ronan Bennett. Who writes Mobland. Yeah. He's terrific as well. He's very good. Yeah, he's very good. But yeah, so there you go. A little connection. I won't always be able to do connection between our first two stories, but I have today. I love that. Have I blown your mind? Yes, you have.

31:53Yes.

31:54Richard Osman:The more usual thing about actors being replaced, certainly way back when, is because they asked for too much money. My favourite example of that is Valerie Harper, who was on the sitcom Valerie in the 80s. Got paid a lot of money. It was a big hit the first season of that. asked for too much money so they fired valerie from valerie and replaced with someone else and called it valerie's family that's bad and also monk which is one of my favorite shows of all time his assistant uh in the first few seasons disappears mid-season completely disappears and is replaced and she was amazing and then you look it up you go oh it would have been a huge hit so all the male actors got a raise and she didn't so she asked for one and they fired her so there you go but again that's um that's showbiz that is showbiz yeah yes well showbiz if you're a woman for sure uh talking of women how's that for a segue i love it uh bell burden tell us about bell right bell burden is the author of a book called strangers a memoir of her sort of disintegrated marriage now it's been an absolute monster hit since it came out earlier this year it's already going to be adapted as a film for netflix and gwyneth paltrow's of course she is Yeah, I know she sort of plays just sort of meta versions.

33:07Since her on retirement from acting, she's sort of playing ironic meta versions of herself, as far as I can see, after that Marty Supreme role, which was sort of hilarious. Anyway, it is the story of an unexpected marriage split. If you haven't read it, I've actually just read the magazine serialization because I don't particularly read bullets like this. But it's a...

33:26Richard Osman:I thought you were going to say I don't particularly read books. No, I don't. It's a story of an unexpected marriage split. It's unexpected on her part. True story, by the way. A true story, yeah. He's a hedge funder. She is a stay-at-home mother. And during the pandemic, they decide to move from their New York place for lockdown. And they go to their waterfront house in Martha's Vineyard. I've got to say, thus far, I'm not sympathetic to either of them. Well, yes. Okay. And then during this time, the husband of a woman rings her to say that her husband is having an affair. Her husband leaves her and says, basically, you can keep the kids.

33:59She's completely hit for six emotionally.

34:01Richard Osman:He sort of leaves literally like the next morning without any, he just packs a bag and bubbles off. Yeah, and goes. And she's hit for a sixth emotion. She tells this, as I say, I read the magazine serialization, which I thought was sufficient for me. But other people have been completely gripped by this book. And, you know, going through and saying, were there signs? But what she says is that, you know, part of the sort of stakes of the book is, is she going to go off a financial cliff edge? She's going to lose her house. She has a prenup, which her lawyer before marriage has advised her not really to sign.

34:33And what's clear from this is that she has kind of given over aspects of her financial control to her husband. I have kept up with the feverish discourse of this. I like the feverish discourse. There's now a new backlash. A New Yorker article came out saying that this wasn't the whole story and that actually Bell Burden had concealed her wealth. She has a number of family trusts. she's basically worth tens of millions so she was never really in what anyone normal would understand as any form of financial jeopardy and some people are saying oh this fatally undermines the book others are saying well she wrote about a very rich lifestyle all the way through you know they've got a waterfront house in the largest of india work it out and anyway the emotional truth and the devastation is the same um and she clearly didn't pay enough attention to her finances or whatever which is interesting but other people are saying you you have to disclose everything and you haven't made it clear so I think this is interesting so Belle Burden has responded in a statement that says that she tried to own her privilege as much as she could when um she wrote Strangers but she feels like you know the emotional truth of it is a book about her heartache and her betrayal um and also that a reminder that we should all pay attention women particularly to finances within their marriage.

35:50One thing I will say about this, I've spoken by chance to completely to a number of very rich women about this book since it's come out. They're all obsessed with it, like genuinely obsessed. And what I find fascinating is this kind of deep fear and the sense that they might, you know, they're gripped by the idea that she missed red flags in her own marriage. Again, like this is the grinding agonies of the super rich, you know, A life of indolence can be quite exhausting.

36:20Richard Osman:Yes, you've got a lot of time on your hands. Treating your marriage as a sort of detective story where you've got to keep... Whereas the female labour in that marriage, because it's always the husband in these particular cases who are rich, have got to sort of keep an eye on, you know, am I missing things? And maintaining this is almost like me maintaining the interiors of somewhere, keeping them up to date. It's almost like owning a football club. Yeah. You're just like, oh God, I'm just the capriciousness of fate and of these... And they have a sense... what I found extraordinary of the people I spoke to, the sense that does jeopardy lie around the corner for them?

36:55So anyway, so to go back, like, okay, did she misrepresent it? I can see for her that she felt like there's such an ingrained class thing here that she wouldn't really be talking that. It's not the Kardashians where, like, all the money's up there on the screen and they want to talk about it all the time. She's a sort of waspish East Coaster who clearly has massive generational wealth.

37:18Richard Osman:Yeah, her grandmother was a famous magazine editor. No, no, no, she's from, you know. She's from money. I think, yeah, and I think she makes it, you know, to most people fairly clear that she's got a lot of money. Having said that, the book does keep suggesting that she might lose the house or not be able to buy her husband down the house or whatever it is. See, I think, again, this happens. Same as saltpath. Well, I think saltpath is slightly different because I think there were some factual inaccuracies there that were probably unacceptable. I think in the case of this, again, I've only read the sort of long form extracts in various places, but it's really well written.

37:53Richard Osman:As you say, it absolutely touches a nerve because it's not about woe is me, I'm going to lose my house. It's about have I been living with a psychopath all of this time? And did I misread things? You know, have I been an absolute idiot? I've been wrong about everything. Yeah, it's like an exhumation. It's like an autopsy going back to try and see what happened. And that is incredibly compelling to read. when she writes it as you say she is rich but she doesn't particularly know that if you know in in the same way sometimes rich people don't know that they're rich but she's not professing poverty there's obviously bits as you say where they say you're going to lose that the house but that to me is like the editor has said and maybe maybe that's what i think we should talk about they didn't trust they didn't trust in the emotional honesty of the i think the reason people love the book is because it's about do i trust my partner in a really really good way and it's weird that And I bet it has come from the editor, that kind of the idea that...

38:48Richard Osman:Understandable. Yeah. Often when you're writing fiction or you're writing even TV fiction and they don't understand the stakes for your protagonist, they always say, could she need money? It's like one of the things that people always say, could she have some sort of financial pressure put on her? You will never ever see a show where a good person is moved to crime where they don't have a relative in a care home. Yeah. It's just saying, to keep it in, we need another 11 grand. I've got no way of getting it. And he goes, hold on, didn't I have a chat yesterday with that guy who said I could smuggle some gold for him?

39:18Okay, so let's get on to who the editor is. The editor is someone at Dial Press, which is a Penguin Random House imprint. I don't think we would be talking about this quite so much had this editor also been the editor for, oops, another memoir that was huge but has since suffered a really big backlash. And I'm going to talk about that one because, my goodness, that was The Tale by Amy Griffin. Amy Griffin is honestly one of America's richest women. She had illegal, because these things are not legal or not yet legal, although her husband is a big investor in psychedelics firms, she had illegal MDMA-assisted regression therapy.

39:56Her memoir is about her recovered memory of being raped multiple times by her school teacher when she's in middle school, so starting when she's about 12. Now, this book was picked by Oprah for her book club, picked by Reese Witherspoon for her book club, picked by Jenna Bush Hager for her book club. Again, it was on the bestseller list for a long time. Since then, a lot of questions have arisen, including one former schoolmate is suing, saying, these are my memories and you've stolen my story, saying she was the rape victim. And it wasn't this teacher at all. It was a different teacher. The teacher who Amy Griffin effectively, people have been able to identify him because you can work, yeah.

40:40There's never been any other complaints against him. He, I think, has had to sort of go into hiding. Both of these books, Bell Burden's one and Amy Griffin's one, were edited by someone called Whitney Frick at Dial Press, who understandably now is receiving quite a bit of pushback. What she said about when Amy Griffin's memoir began to be questioned was book publishers are not investigators. This is Amy's story. We trust her and all of our authors that they are recounting their memories truthfully. Well, okay, this is a recovered memory on the late psychedelics, but okay.

41:13Richard Osman:And also this is exactly what they said about Salt Path. They said, no, we have to trust the author. I have to say that I think that if you know your book, a book even might be big, and lots of people have said this over the last week, if you know a book might be big and it might have a book up and a monster hit, as I always say, there is always a backlash because people do remember things differently. Maybe we're all unreliable narrators and we can get to that. But if you know that book, why can't they be fact-checked to some degree? And that is a protection for the author as much as for the reader or whatever it is.

41:43I've got a theory as to why this is. A bit of a rash.

41:46Richard Osman:Okay, I have a commercial theory. About why there's a memoir fakery issue at the moment. Oh, no, about why publishing never checks. Publishing never checks by Richard Osmond. No, I honestly think that no one expects any books to be a hit. I think when something comes in like this, they will do everything they can to make something a hit because hits are so few and far between in publishing i mean vanishingly few and far between one in 30 books might turn a profit one in 60 might be like a phenomenon and so statistically the book you are currently working on the bell burden book is not going to be a hit no these books got massive advances doesn't matter okay but if you're paying that much in advance you i think you should pay for some form of fact checking because you've actually essentially backed yourself.

42:33If you're giving multimillionaires already a big advance and there's a bidding war, then you are backing yourself to say, I think this will be a hit. As much as I can know anything in publishing, which is not a lot, as you say, then in which case, why not invest in something that can help the author as well? Because actually, it's not clear that Bell Burden at all felt she was misrepresenting anything.

42:55Richard Osman:It doesn't sound like she was particularly. Do influencers misrepresent? Yes, of course they do. sort of write us into their lives, but they sort of don't. And they curate and they downplay some things and they amp up others. Yeah, I think if you're Rainer Wynn and Saltpath and you're saying you don't have a property and you do, that's one thing. I think if you're saying I did worry... Well, there's a number of things with that one. If you're saying I worried about my financial security and the financial security of my children, I'm sure she did. I mean, anyone else in her situation wouldn't because she's obviously backed up by quite a lot of money.

43:26Richard Osman:But I imagine that's definitively what she felt. If you're saying I've had my memories recovered. Oh, that's different. Come on, is this not a red flag for a publisher? I would have thought on that case, yes, I definitely would have thought so. But again, they're probably thinking, well, this is unsuable because she's telling us that she had her memories recovered. And as you say, they go, oh, no, you'll never identify that guy. And that's the problem is we live in a world where you can identify anyone now. I agree. And so therefore, this is something that it must be. We said this with a thought pod.

43:53You're going to have to catch up with this world.

43:55Richard Osman:Baby reindeer. Yeah. Yes. The same thing keeps happening. But I think where the boom in memoirs, and obviously some of those are going to have question marks over them, I always think of it as like the My Truth era. The books we're seeing published now or quite recently, they were probably bought at a point where the absolute moment of peak woke. U.S. publishing in particular became so woke that even fiction was kind of fraught with danger. Like, oh, can you really ventriloquize the person of a different race? can you, you know, a different gender, a different sexuality. In the end, you get to the point where first-person articles or memoir are the safest genre.

44:34Richard Osman:Because you mustn't deny anyone's truth. You can't deny anyone's truth. The act of fiction itself is almost political and not in a good way. So what you're left with is people saying my first-person story, very powerful, etc., you know. So not this is a thing that happened to someone, this is the thing that happened to me. I can talk about it because I am me. And no, I'm not allowed to tell any other truth. No one else is allowed to tell anyone else's. And I think that lots of these books were commissioned during that time, and where a particular sensibility was abroad, where almost nobody can pretend to be anything.

45:08And actually, what's ironic is that some of these people seem to have been pretending some of the powerful, quote unquote, first person pieces seem to have been the least reliable and most questionable of all.

45:20Richard Osman:I mean, does anyone, any of us truly know ourselves? No, probably not. And I, but it's, I think it's a function of that particular era where memoir felt like a really safe genre because it couldn't suddenly become cancelled because everyone was saying, how on earth can someone pretend to be a Mexican woman? Or how on earth can someone pretend to be people? Which is crazy because if you or I tell an anecdote about someone else, it's usually fairly factual, although we'll ramp up certain bits. If we tell an anecdote about ourself, that's the, that's the biggest lie we've ever told. But I mean, honestly, the spin we put on that.

45:50Richard Osman:And then, yeah, I guess there was five guys with knives and they were all coming at me. And it just is absolute nonsense. The worst lies you tell are the lies about yourself. I agree. Any recommendations, Marina? Yes. You know, I've been banging on about microdramas and thinking, oh, someone clever and someone brilliant. Even though I, you know, there's a lot that I've had sex with my billionaire CEO, werewolf boss. I know that, but we were talking about microdramas. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I know this whole first personal confessional is like, yeah. It's powerful, though. That'll be the express. Yeah.

46:24So Issa Rae, who is the brilliant creator of Insecure and has now turned her attention to microdrama. She's produced a 57-episode vertical microdrama called Screen Time that's about sort of two couples that are on a double date and things turn very weird. There's a hacking situation. I looked yesterday and it had 160 million views on TikTok. This is the first breakout, one of these things that is completely, a very recognized creator who's brilliant has done it. People have been completely gripped by it. And it's the first one on TikTok that has kind of blown up in this way because there are all these other platforms, as I've talked to you about before, like things like Real Short or whatever.

47:06Yeah, which are, well, Crunchyroll's anime, but things like Real Short that are specifically dedicated microdromer platforms. But this is done on TikTok. It's a recognized creator and it has blown up completely. It's called Screen Time. Have a look.

47:23Richard Osman:And I would say if you add the success of that, which is a phenomenon to the success of Backrooms and Obsession, we are in a moment, I would say, a transitional moment. It's not even a transitional moment. The transitional moment was two years ago. Now we're seeing that we were in a transitional moment and nothing goes back to what it was, which is why sometimes the things we talk about, about building, you know, BBC and all the different public service broadcasters together, why it's so important now. Because the fight is not what it was. It's not all these channels are against each other. It's the whole world has completely changed.

47:54Richard Osman:And if we want some of the traditional jobs and some of the traditional media we've had, we have to understand that everything has changed. I'm going to talk about traditional media, though, because I just finished this latest series of Amanda Land, which is superb and reminds you of what terrestrial television at its very, very best can do. beautifully written beautifully acted so british so funny very very charming feels fresh feels new uh and so yeah amanda then six episodes uh series two uh it's just yeah i mean what a you know it is joy to be alive in uh such a time yes that that is made but everything has already changed things are not changing everything has already changed and we just all have to get our mind around.

48:37But lots of it is incredibly exciting.

48:39Richard Osman:Exactly that. There's still brilliant people working. Creatives are still doing the same things they were always doing. There's probably more money now for creators. There's probably more money for young creatives who didn't have an entry into the industry. There are lots of ways in which this new world is better than the old world. But we also have to try and protect and bulwark the bits of the old world which we know work right on that on that clarion call we will be back on thursday with our questions and answers edition and for our members there's the third part of my series in which i was talking to james canogasorium it's i don't want to say is taylor swift a basic bitch but it's saying is everything becoming generic and if so why are we all basic bitch oh we is everything but yeah are we all becoming basic i definitely am um i'm not becoming it that's how i started but it's a very interesting chat about genericism.

49:30That's if you want to join and for every listening and bonus episodes, it's the rest is entertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday.

49:37Richard Osman:See you on Thursday.

49:47Good energy in. Good energy out.

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