Bad Bunny, Bondage & Dragon Sex

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1:12Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina High. And me, Richard Osmond. Hi, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? Yeah, I'm okay. Do you have a nice week, a nice weekend? I'm doing a lot of work at the moment. Oh, no. Yeah, I know. Oh, my God, are you okay? Yeah, I'm, you know, struggling through my struggle. Don't worry, we won't be talking about my struggle today. Okay, that's good news. What are we talking about today, though? We're talking about female desire, Richard. No, but actually. Wow. Which is very much my struggle. We're talking about female desire across all the entertainment industries and the sort of slowness.

1:51Of the realisation that there might be billions and billions of dollars in us. Yeah. Yeah. There's money in hotness. Okay. There might be as much money in it as male desire. Who would have thought? Okay, that's crazy talk, but we'll get there in a minute. We're also inevitably going to be talking about the Super Bowl Bad Bunny's halftime show, which I thought was amazing. And a little bit about, which has a slight Super Bowl angle attached to it, so I'm going to shoehorn it in, what's happening at the Washington Post. Oh, great. That segue I look forward to very much indeed. I mean, listen, the subtext is always this on this podcast, but shall we talk about female desire?

2:28Yeah, running like a golden thread through this podcast. But female desire is strangely beginning to having a moment across lots of different industries, entertainment industries. But I do think there has been a sort of cross entertainment failure to appreciate or a slowness in appreciating that female desire is good business. Yeah. The female gaze pays. Yeah. I think there was probably a delay in believing it existed at all. Yeah, in the world. Yes. But particularly romance on a sort of sliding scale of explicitness. Yeah. For me, I think we have to start with publishing because so much of it comes from there.

3:13When you think about IP and what gets made and what gets adapted and all sorts of things, I sort of feel like publishing is the kind of patient zero of this. Yes, I think so. I mean, you can go all the way back to Fifty Shades of Grey. So Fifty Shades of Grey was seen as an outlier. They were like, oh, there's this Twilight fan fiction written by E.L. James, who'd worked for many years as a production manager in TV, and sold 150 million copies worldwide in various different forms and various different sequels and prequels and so on. And then the movies were absolutely huge. But essentially self-published?

3:48It was essentially self-published, It's like almost all the big publishing sensations of the last 20 years. Such an interesting industry. It is an interesting industry, isn't it? You think, oh, you missed that one as well. Anyway, so self-published Fifty Shades of Grey. Female erotica always existed in publishing, and this was very much sort of gone over the top and become very mainstream, and you could read it on the tube and what have you. But definitively, it was labelled as erotica, and it was like, oh, wow, that was a flash in the pan. Let's do a couple of absolute copycats. They've had their fun, the ladies.

4:24Leave it there. The ladies have had their fun. I don't think this need detain us any further. Meanwhile, underneath that, what was happening is huge amounts of self-published erotica. And erotica, fan fiction, all sorts of things, ways in which women could find their way into writing about female desire because there weren't the publishing contracts that said, would you write this for us? So they were going, well, I'll write it for other women then. And lots of it was fan fiction. And, you know, people like Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca Yaros were sort of sitting at home writing stuff. And those two, if you haven't heard the names of now, the two biggest writers in the whole world.

5:03There came a point where when mainstream publishing got comfortable with it or found a route into it is when it sort of got bolted onto fantasy. So fan fiction is sort of fantasy anyway. you know, Fifty Shades of Grey comes from Twilight fan fiction. So there was always an element of fantasy. But when it got bolted onto traditional fantasy fiction, which men were comfortable with and became romantic. They're happy with dragons. If there's a dragon in it, they'll allow it. Yeah, allowed. And the women are saying, great, if my heroine is allowed to have sex with that dragon, I am also comfortable.

5:38And suddenly... Dragon sex is massive, by the way. I mean, so I hear. and so this genre romanticcy took off and is now the biggest genre in the world by quite some way it's kind of a subject genre although it's enormous just like outsizing bigger than many of the other genres but yes it's a sort of romance sub-genre and as so often when publishers go I tell you what why don't we get more people to write cosy crime books because that was successful five years ago and actually it was all this is the stuff the stuff it's for something to be big now you have to have started writing it five years ago you can't there's no there's absolutely no shortcut and this stuff was being written all the way through the last decade and into this um and is absolutely beyond enormous now and a lot of it was driven by book talk which i think is slightly waning now which is interesting but it was massively driven and it was reframing it it was reframing it from erotica into romanticy And then, you know, this expression spicy starts existing and, you know, there are levels of spiciness and, you know, BookTok, it becomes a communal experience.

6:45And, you know, and by and large, it's women either enjoying men having sex with other men or women enjoying women having sex with mythical beasts. Yeah. Tends to be one of the kind of a very interesting sociological through line. I mean, the biggest audiences for these MM stories, male-male stories, are women. And there's all sorts of reasons why that might be the case. But it's quite clear that people want to have desire and hotness, but they feel so much emotional baggage having, as I said, been the kind of object of the male gaze rather than be the subject in romantic stories, that almost women being removed from these kind of intimate situations completely allows them to just experience the desire on a kind of conceptual level and not bring their own baggage or their cultural baggage to it.

7:35Yeah, and the fandoms as well of the people who read these things, because they have some control, it's almost like they are a director of this as well, which gives them another form of control over the action. This is the thing, this is where it crosses over, so it becomes absolutely enormous on Booktop, it becomes absolutely enormous in publishing, a huge amount of money to be made from it. And these increasingly smaller and smaller subdivided subgenres start popping up, as they do in traditional pornography, right? It's more and more and more specialist things. And so one of the things that crops up is gay hockey porn.

8:15Yeah. Right? Romance. Gay hockey romance. Gay hockey romance. I'm so sorry. Not porn. Of course they're having sex with each other, but it's not pornography. No. It's romance. Yeah, it is. But with a lot of banging. okay yeah fine yeah banging heavy romance i call it bhr so rachel reed who is a you know an author thinks i you know i want to do some uh bhr and so she starts writing heated rivalry and again an awful lot of this like almost all phenomena is just someone doing the thing that they want to do in the same way that that's you know that when i started writing the funny crime books it's because that's what i wanted to write not because it was out there so she was writing what she wanted to right and she shared funnily enough on instagram the other day the dm she got from a publisher saying i don't suppose anyone's got the rights to these books i don't suppose you'd be interested in someone buying the rights and her just going oh my god i mean firstly that's mental but secondly of course i'd be interested in someone buying the rights well they are very business-minded i think that's very interesting about these women who write these things that there's a sort of open so i saw someone describe it as an open elite community and another to give you an example of what people also thought was an open elite community, which was something like Silicon Valley at the start, where these guys who were sort of outsiders, but they all shared a lot of ideas.

9:31You know, they didn't keep stuff hidden because they wanted to share in order to disrupt all these things. They say that a lot about these women who write these books, that they're very good at kind of engaging with people sort of below them on the rungs and trying to reach down and pull them back up. And sharing how they sell. Because they're not being published by traditional publishers, because traditional publishers were looking elsewhere, they have to find their own ways and monetizing what it is they do. And by monetizing, we don't mean, oh, I want to be a millionaire. It's I want to keep writing these books.

9:57So I want to find a way to fund myself. And I can do that by finding these communities and serving those communities and by amplifying other people in those communities. And by interacting with them. Exactly that. Colleen Hoover's like never often. She's always interacting. It's interesting, HarperCollins, they've just reported a 6 % sales increase and they specifically cited heated rivalry. Yeah. I mean, it's an absolute phenomenon. But again, comes from somebody not trying to work out what the market is, but writing the thing they wanted. And at the heart of this is female desire. And the heart of all of these huge hits has been that female desire has not been represented.

10:34I don't want us to think we're just talking about money here. Because if you think for one second that I'm thinking about money when I'm watching a compilation of all the kisses and heated rivalry on YouTube, then do you even know me? Okay, I'm not, it's literally not even in my transom. Seriously. Not in my transom. No, it's not in my transom. Which, of course, is the title of your new ice hockey novel. And so, you know, if you're Rachel Reid, who's just writing the stuff that she loves to write and engaging with the community and sells the rights, not to a huge network or to a huge streamer or to somewhere where you think, oh, this is going to be the biggest show in the world.

11:05She could sell it to Crave, which is this tiny streamer that with respect, like, almost nobody has ever heard of as a Canadian streamer. Because, as I said before, you know, you need a rink for a couple of days and otherwise it's hotel rooms. and but honestly and you it's not expensive romance is not expensive apart from period romance which we'll get to it's not expensive to make and essentially because they have these really engaged fandoms it's almost enough if the fandom really show up and they always do which is why again it's odd that people don't understand that these are kind of quite bankable the fandom show up and then a bit more ripples out that's enough okay as happened with this show it's so incredibly nuts how how mad it's gone yeah i would say it's wonderful in in publishing's defense this is quite a difficult area to predict you know if you if you were to go you know 18 months ago and go okay which book or you know online blog is going to be enormous and you said it's going be heated rivalry that you you would be some sort of sage to work that it is quite hard to work out which is going to be big.

12:12But the thing is, when something in this area does go big, it goes absolutely crazily enormous. And this is off the back, by the way, of the narrative has been for a few years now that millennials and younger generations are less interested in sex. They don't want to see it on their screens. They don't want to read about it. They don't even want it in their lives. That's what they tell surveys. That's exactly that. By the way, boomers and Gen X tell their doctors they drink 14 units a week. So we all say stuff to surveys. Everybody says stuff to surveys. They do want sex. Because if you look at shows like Heated Rivalry, Tell Me Lies, which is absolutely massive with later Gen Z and also Millennials, these kind of spicy, if this word, show, people absolutely are obsessed with them and they have these incredibly engaged fandoms.

12:56But I think if we talk about TV as well, because I think there's reason in the kind of current era why romance has felt difficult for TV. And it's partly because they tend to end romances. they tend to sort of wrap up and so you're looking at a limited series rather than you're looking at what people want which is always, I've made this investment and I kind of want something to be returning. But period romance is expensive but then look at Bridgerton, you know, and they found a way to kind of follow it almost anthology style, different stories or Nobody Wants This or Emily in Paris. These are all romances essentially of different types.

13:36So you know it's still growing in sales as a genre. And something I did hear, which I thought was really quite sad, is that it's much harder to sell the rights to current romance series that people are writing right now, because teenagers, YA stuff, people are reading so many fewer books. And so the things that make it really big are things like The Summer I Turned Pretty, which came out in 2009, because those things have these kind of built-in fandoms and people remember them but the series being published now have smaller fandoms amongst kind of this particularly the sort of ya star yeah well i think i think possibly because this genre has been ignored and so actually there are also because they're reading fewer books and that's just a sad reality but there are a lot of things on the shelf that weren't picked up at the time which are still oh you can go back and get them which are at which are provable there will come a point where that pipeline sort of comes to an end and you know the newer stuff gets sold and listen we'll all have moved on but i wonder you know so this idea that of the younger generations are less interested in sex they don't want to see it on screen and now it's the biggest phenomenon in the world and i wonder if because desire was traditionally seen in in hollywood as male desire and even female desire was seen through the lens of what men would like women are the objective desire not the subject of it and so you know throughout the 80s and 90s and Bruckheimer and everyone there's a million movies that are sort of about male desire and you know would bring young men into the cinema and then I think because the next generation of young men were absolutely super served with pornography which is the thing that they were after in the first place you know it was not titillationist I mean there's no point hinting at it for me you know just showing me pornography and so that entire generation of young men no longer needed you know to see sharon stone uncross her legs in a movie and that be the kind of a highlight of their year because they were absolutely super served their desires were completely super served and so because male desire was uh hollywood's and publishing's point it disappeared because that audience was completely being served and they weren't interested in that stuff anymore and meanwhile the the female desire was can i remind you of the other sex had gone nowhere yeah yeah and because it hadn't been showed those audiences show up it's really interesting when you look, you know, just speaking and thinking about those kind of romance titles, they found, you know, when they see that women are buying like one of these books a week.

16:03So they really show up and they really continue to sort of, you know, they do it regularly. But it is a cultural thing too. I do think that something like heated rivalry, first of all, the male-male thing is interesting. There's, as we say, the male gaze is what made a lot of it. But I think that the biggest audience for male male stories written stories either online or in um in books is female and there's something about where we've got to that women actually prefer it if you take women out of or not prefer it or like it as much if you take women out of the picture completely and they they don't sort of bring all the emotional baggage of imagining themselves in whatever situation and they can actually just experience the kind of desire as a kind of general abstract concept.

16:51Well, that's because the idea of men is so often so much better than the reality of men. I mean, God bless us. But not all men, of course, and there's lots of terrific ones out there. I'm related to some of them. But you know what I mean. But yeah, no, I, and also, but it has fulfilled something like heated rivalry, a sort of cultural yearning. It's really interesting that, I can't remember which it was, one of the sort of entertainment sub stackers or newsletters or someone, had an interview with the casting directors of Heated Rivalry, which you think is like quite a niche back, you know, last week or the week before.

17:28And the amount of new subscribers so that people could read about the casting of Heated Rivalry is extraordinary because that is so deep background, as it were. But it was very interesting. They had done the chemistry reads on Zoom, which I thought was incredible to be able to get that. And people just wanted to know, you know, how was this thing done to me? People understand that it's lightning in a bottle, but they want to know how it's done. Yeah, the audience wants to know. The industry really wants to know. Yeah. How have you made all this money by spending so little money? Yes, because by the way, these things, as I keep saying, don't have to be expensive.

18:02Some of them are, but the things that are kind of... The next series will be. Yeah. Well, it's very interesting because it won't be HBO'd. They'll be tied in for a couple of seasons after that. You'd hope because HBO have still got the same license. the money they paid to license it will be the same. So they're doing really well out of this. But I think that something also that I've noticed in that there's something like that other juggernaut, Bridgerton, you know, in Heated Rivalry, there's a cottage features very heavily. And I'm not going to spoil it if you haven't seen it. But also in Bridgerton, this idea of, they kind of retreat to somewhere he calls, the guy in it calls a cottage.

18:42And this whole thing, it's funny that these two massive juggernauts at the moment have that idea of like retreating from the world to a place which doesn't it's like a pastoral idyll I mean we obviously this has been going on since antiquity but removing yourself from the world where you don't have to think about the epstein files or that like a pussy grabber's the president you have to think any of these things just an innocent world where a couple of men are banging each other for your entertainment there's a fire pit or in the case of bridgerton there's just like a night it's actually like a massive estate but it's called a cottage it doesn't you know but you're there's a sense that people want these kind of, this withdrawal from the world, from the horribleness of it into a sort of, I don't know, it is a form of pastoral idyll, whether you can completely retreat into it.

19:25I don't know. I mean, a lot of writers have had a lot of things to say about that across the centuries, but. I mean, and the question is, of course, it is huge now. And funnily enough, I mean, romanticism has always been, has been enormous for a few years now has made a huge amount of money, but sometimes publishing is not quite the lightning rod. that the whole of culture, you know, you can still talk about romanticism, people have not heard of it, even though these are the biggest authors in the world. Whereas heated rivalry, I think, is finally the thing that is the lightning rod where suddenly broadsheet newspapers are allowed to write about, hold on, what's going on here?

20:00I mean, I'm doing one right now. I don't know why I'm interested to ask about it. Listen, you've got to have a catchphrase. Where is Hollywood in all this? Where are movies in this idea of female desire? Well, I find this quite interesting because rom-coms are, to all intents and purposes, pretty dead. Every now and then you'll get one like, I don't know, Anyone But You, or something that comes along and it does work, but it's not like everybody's seen it. The big one that is coming, and it's not a rom-com, is Wuthering Heights, which opens on Friday, which is gothic romance. We'll be talking about that next week.

20:38Come on. I it is that is really I think it's tracking to open maybe 40 or 50 million that I think is going to be massive as I've already said um but I think there's a lot of people thinking I wonder what will happen with that if there are two incredibly hot leads that people show up for yeah and there's obviously Emeril Fennell is someone who just I think she's so finds a way to get some zeitgeist right yeah and people just can't start talking about it and you know I couldn't care less about people foaming at their mouth about, you know, what's she done to this book. Grow up. It's a book. Adapt it a different way if you want.

21:15It's ludicrous. You're welcome. You're welcome. It's in the public realm. Do your own movie. Yeah. Anyway, so I, but I think that will be interesting. And if people feel like, oh my gosh, you know, again, yearning, kind of S &M, bondage, whatever. If there's this sense that there's some sort of thing happening and they can't quite put their finger on it, but they think it might involve female desire, then let's see what happens after that. Can you imagine the bad movies that are going to be made in the next few years? Yes. And the bad books that are going to be written, but also the good books.

21:44That's the thing, isn't it? Yeah, but there's one sort of entertainment industry that I don't think is slow on this because it's always been built on this, and that's music. They've always known that female fandoms and obsessive female fandoms, I mean, now it's being monocytes, and we talked about things like K-pop and all this kind of structure around that. but buying merchandise buying all that stuff that is an industry that has always been very forward on this and I can't really fault them for you know it's now the women are all the biggest artists in the world apart from a couple and so I don't think we can fault music but and the other place that you cannot fault for this because it's a billion dollar industry that's built almost entirely on female desire is micro dramas which we've spoken of before which these little vertical dramas you watch them on your phone and they're like It's a two-minute episode, and eventually you have to pay to watch them.

22:36And it's hard to overestimate quite how obsessed Hollywood has become with these now. It's like AI and Silicon Valley microdramas are for Hollywood. Everyone is setting up their own microdrama department and spending hundreds of millions of these things. I've seen it. This is not my line, but I like this line. Microdrama is described as only fans for women. which is yeah because and it's funny the sort of the big tropes in them are you know whether or not you like it are secret boss relationships kind of billionaire alpha male really old style Mills and Boone stuff there's a lot of you know can I is werewolf a species I don't know interspecies romance yeah so there's werewolf stuff vampires which have had a bit of a cultural lull in terms of no one wants to bang vampires no they do in micro dramas Oh, do they?

23:25They're back. They don't want to stop banging my... Oh, really? They love vampires, werewolves, all of that. Okay. But also what you see in microdramas, which is sort of interesting, if you think how long Hollywood or traditional TV takes to play out stories, people want quick intensity. And it's really interesting that Heated Rivalry was in development, I think, with someone else, not Crave, for a long time. And, you know, that was a much more conventional form of development. And they said to the guy, the director, a guy called Jacob Tierney who wrote and directed it there's no way they can kiss before episode 5 and obviously within like the first 15 minutes of the series we have now they're having sex in about 15 minutes so it's sort of interesting that micro dramas do that like you get to it really quickly people don't want there's a sense of people don't want stories to hold out on them they want what they want they want to know what they're getting and by the way I don't mind that I often think that there's you know you can make millions selling courses on how to write screenplays and how to write and how to construct stories and things like that.

24:27And it's always, the beats are always exactly the same. And you hold back this till kind of halfway through and you hold back this till two thirds of the way through. And this is where the jeopardy comes. And this is, the audience must know this and you must know this. And that to me seems to be changing. And I quite like the fact it's changing. You know, we bought, we grew up on that diet. And so we intrinsically understand it. I can't watch a movie if someone is falsely accused of something. I can't. This is why you can't go on Traitors. this is one of your real hang-ups but I just I mean you just like Harrison Ford has been accused of this the bad guy's going to get away with it I know that two hours in it's going to be fine yeah but I have to wait two hours for that I don't want for Harrison Ford to be exonerated I can't stand with you I don't want to wait two hours for that and it's the same thing as look I know these two guys are going to bang yeah you know and who wants to wait two hours for that exonerate for Harrison Ford in the first 15 minutes and then let's have another movie do something else do something else with your film you know make it something you know you can do other things but I do genuinely think that the way that Hollywood tells stories is changing and that actually micro dramas are ahead of that curve that you you you just you have to give different beats and it's you know it's a beat every three minutes it's very very different you show kids old films they're like when's it gonna start this this is unbelievable and i kind of get it you know there's a we'll always have test cricket but uh it's it's it's kind of it's kind of nice also just to see something you think oh you're just trying to entertain me every three minutes yeah this is great it's like that's why i like comedy comedy there's only one rule which is tell me a joke tell me a joke tell me a joke tell me a joke and drama hasn't been like that you know and for good you know most of the great dramas in the world because we delay we delay the moment and then you know it hits us like a truck but you can make you can write books you can make entertainment you can make movies you make tv shows that give you what you want all of the time and it just means that they become slightly different things and in the hands of creative people it's interesting to say to them no just entertain me all the way through yeah just just do that and the amount of people i've said before when you talk about microdramas every single writer and almost all actors go oh my god that's amazing oh i'm really interested because it's a different way to do something and it's so boring being told you have to write something the same way every time yes i know that's less to do with female desire but it's it's indicative of the same thing wasn't it which is we tell different stories in different ways now Yeah, absolutely.

26:44And I think that I suppose the sort of big takeouts of all of this are that people, yet again, less late to wake up. But I definitely think that yearning is an actual genre now. Absolute yearning. But also almost immediate satisfaction of that yearning. Yeah. Well, unless the kind of bondage and the kind of edging of it all, if I may, is a thing, which surely it's going to be in Wuthering Heights. I mean, I've seen the trailer a few times and we'll have to see. Yeah, there'll be some yearning in that. I see, yeah, there'll be some unresolved yearning in that. Yeah. But what people want, they do want anticipation.

27:22Again, but sometimes, as you say, they want to get into it very quickly. they want emotional safety they want fantasy but with some form of control female control and they want intimacy and not just sex for definite and they have not seen intimacy in movies for how long really they see a lot of sex but they don't necessarily see intimacy in the same day and all it took all along was a great big dragon who would have thought but it is It's a fascinating story in 50 % of the entire population of the world sort of being culturally and creatively ignored. And then riding in to save a lot of industries.

28:10The money you can make when you kind of go, oh, perhaps I will serve that audience. Fine. You'll get your turn. Will I get my money? I'm looking forward to whichever celebrity writes their first Romantic novel Why hasn't that happened? Because they're too busy getting them to write crime novels I wonder if someone's out there doing one now, they will be Let's go for a break, shall we and after that, talking female desire we're going to talk about Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl We will do See you next time.

29:08Let's go.

29:46Welcome back, everybody. We're talking about Bad Bunny and we're talking about the Super Bowl. Should we do this? Does anyone not know who Bad Bunny or the Super Bowl are? Let's remind everyone, the Super Bowl is America's biggest sporting event. And biggest TV event. And biggest TV event in their football. It's marked, as always, by more people talking about the ads in the middle of the game, occasionally talking about the scandal of the halftime show. One day they'll talk about, guys, you'll get there. One day they'll talk about your sport. It was boring though. It was a boring match. Yeah. Thank goodness in our big sporting events, we don't talk just about what happens in the gaps between it happening.

30:20Otherwise it would just be, did you hear what Mark Chapman said to Dion Dublin? I could not believe it. Mark Chapman is very much our bad bunny. But the Super Bowl is beyond enormous in America. It's not the FA Cup final. NFL games are far and away. I think 80 of the top 100 broadcasts of the year are NFL shows. It is enormous. It is enormous, enormous, enormous. And the Super Bowl is the biggest NFL game of the year. And as you say, culturally now you have these adverts and you have this halftime show, which make it an entertainment spectacle as well. It is probably the biggest entertainment event in America by some way.

30:55I would say it's almost impossible to think of anything that even comes close to the impact of this all at once. A lot of people have a lot of opinions on it. And that is no different this year, thanks to Mr. Bad Bunny. Yeah, Bad Bunny did the halftime show, which I have to say, I absolutely loved it. The staging of it, beyond phenomenal. As a technical masterpiece, though, whoever did the Steadicam, give them the Emmy already. Unbelievable. Is there a Steadicam Emmy? The blocking the camera work, the amount of people involved. It began with a little film section in kind of the fields in Puerto Rico, where Bad Bounty is from.

31:32Very high grasses in the stadium as well. There were so many people involved. People playing dominoes. There was a market having their nails done. All these kind of everyday things. The casita from his tour, which has become a part of his iconography, a little Puerto Rican. Sort of like the home he grew up in, essentially. There was a real wedding during it. everybody was waiting for this performance to be some kind of political thing. Well, let's talk about that. So, you know, the reason we're even speaking about it is that Bad Bunny was announced as the Halftime Act. Apple sponsored the Halftime Act.