Bake-Off, Boris' Book and Bad Movies

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1:25EnduranceWarranty.com. EnduranceWarranty.com.

1:32Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment, questions and answers edition. I'm Marina Hyde. And I am Richard Osmond. We're still apart from each other. I cannot infect you. Your COVID has not passed. It has not cleared. It hasn't cleared. I must keep you safe at all costs. But by the way, we've got such, someone wrote in something so nice. um would you remember we're talking about ai commentary um on local sports you mentioned that oh yes i was saying that the thing i would like if ai can do anything i would like it whenever you're walking through like a local park and there's a cricket match going on or a football match going on i'd love it if somehow ai could commentate on it for me i would sit and i would sit and watch the whole game that that was my that was my ai dream well this is like hearing that flying cars are reality because listen to this chris wright has written in and he says I thought your listeners might like to hear this story.

2:23I'm an expat in Singapore and my 10-year-old son plays cricket in a local competition here. The competition is dominated by Indian kids and the games are live streamed on YouTube, which is great as it allows my family to tune in live from Australia when he's batting and bowling. A few weeks ago, I got a message from my brother asking who is providing the colourful commentary for the game and I had to wander around the field looking for the commentator who I couldn't find. After making inquiries, it turns out that$50 of the match fee goes to a guy living in the middle of nowhere in India who commentates on four hours worth of local 10-year-olds playing cricket based on the live stream, a team sheet and presumably some messages from the scorers.

3:01It is a great service and well worth the money. That's so cool. That's so cute, isn't it? Can you imagine that? If you were a kid and you had all of that. I've watched an unbelievable amount of small boys cricket games and actually Kieran used to do the scoring on a sort of whatsapp for all the different parents so like sometimes they can't you know if people are working and couldn't make it there then there would be like this sort of group and he would do some sort of commentary on that um but this is of a different level and i'm absolutely gripped by it i now want to watch this specific um version of it so chris please get in touch and like give me a link to the link to that feed and i will watch it but i absolutely love the idea of this It's literally, Richard, it's nearly flying cars.

3:46Your dream is nearly a reality. It's nearly a reality. I have a tiny bit of any other business. A friend of mine was listening when you were talking about showing the shining to your nine-year-old child. And lots of people have told us about the inappropriate things they've watched with their children. And a friend of mine, he shall remain nameless, he said when our youngest child was five, he and his wife often watched Grey's Anatomy. yeah he said his wife watched it more than me but that Grey's Anatomy is one of those things we're watching and sometimes if I was out she would watch an episode without me and I I was fine with that he says so I come back in one day and his wife is sitting on the sofa with the five-year-old and watching this thing and my friend looks at these two characters on screen and says I thought I thought those two had split up and his wife said well it seems not and then And this five-year-old daughter said, hmm, they're not really back together, Daddy.

4:40It's just breakup sex. And at that point, the five-year-old was no longer allowed to watch Grey's Anatomy. Well, how precocious, in the most charming way. In the most charming way. I have a question for you, Marina, from Thomason, who has a question about Zack Snyder, the, let's say, controversialist director of things like Man of Steel, Justice League, a lot of the DC movies. Anyway, Thomason's question is this. Do you think Zack Snyder is aware his fans are as toxic as they are and purposefully doesn't care? Also, what effect will the success of James Gunn's Superman have, if any, on them? I ask because I find it ludicrous that no matter what happens, they've decided on their version of reality that continues to change as facts change.

5:21Yeah, I mean, this is the sort of emblematic, well, it's not, well, I mean, there's so many toxic fandoms, but Zack Snyder, who's a big DC director, when he made Justice League for DC, for four years there was a fan campaign release the Snyder cut I mean Zack Snyder is a particular sort of guy and by the way during the making of that film something awful happened and his daughter took her own life and it was a sort of and he does credit the fan movement with sort of bringing him back to filmmaking so it's a more nuanced story than it could be but I think in general yes I think he's definitely aware of how toxic it became game um and i think he probably got a lot of toxic stuff as well um but he's a particular type of person he's he has an unproduced screenplay for the fountainhead which i always feel is a character note in a director the ayn rand book beloved beloved of uh of tech bros everywhere yeah beloved of tech bros everywhere and terrible people um he's personally he's very very obsessed with director's cuts he always does one sometimes he does two director's cuts you're like um so um you know that critics of whoever ever any studio ever are always just like well the director's cut is better you know i would personally much rather sit through nine and a half hours of heaven's gate or whatever it is um zach snyder does actually claim i think never to have seen the warner brothers theatrical release cut of justice league same like did it no i have actually seen it but um i didn't see it in theaters um but i think it's really interesting as always with these things if they're not doing it to you then there is a sort of secret delight that they're kind of doing it in your service and will you explain who the fans are and the they use they're a very toxic online um group of people who would just say you know i want release his cut release and we're kind of obsessed with it and like all of these things that i think they're sort of mirrored in those Star Wars fandoms who kind of went absolutely nuts about The Last Jedi and said, I don't know, that the character of Rey was a sort of terrible, perfect little feminist that, and they completely hounded Kelly Marie Tran off social media completely.

7:43And she was subject to sort of terrible racist and kind of sexist bullying. I don't know. a lot of critics nowadays feel that they're under constant siege from fandoms and that that fandoms take critical reviews as kind of personal attacks on them and what I think all of this shows is it's become so interesting you know fandom has become such an identity fandom has become and to some extent you know and those old you know I have friends who before way before it was cool who would say to me this is literally the most uncool thing you could do would go to things like star trek conventions would go to you know that was all uncool and then suddenly it's like oh no comic-con's very cool all of these things have become cool and they've become much more mainstream to some extent but rather than being for kind of shy nerdy outsidery kids who were quite nice they have become places of huge aggression and that's one of the big stories of in fandom of the past decade or two is the idea of fandom as a kind of identity.

8:52It's part of identity politics. And like all the rest of identity politics become very vicious. It's like a football team. It's like having a team. Suddenly Star Trek fans can be Millwall fans. I totally agree with you. But I was thinking about this just when you were saying that. But it's sort of like factions within the fans of one football team. And you can say, OK, yes, there are the people who think of themselves as the kind of OG fans. And then there are the prawn sandwich brigade and there's some kind of friction between them. But it's not really like this kind of inter-Neesan warfare, which is really odd because it's like, these are battles between people who essentially, supposedly love the same fiction.

9:33You know, they love Star Wars or they love whatever. And it becomes this real sort of, and it's definitely a story that is something of the last decade or two, not even two. So, you know, whose voice matters most? Who's purist. Who's purist? Who's liked it longest? Who's liked it in the right way? Rather than feeling like it's a lovely kind of camaraderie, a brotherhood and a sisterhood that you all get swept up in because you basically like the same characters, it's become, like everything, a battleground. And I would say that the Snyder fandom was a particular example of that. And to anyone else, like any of these other purity spirals or anything like that, within about a month or two of it running, to anyone else on the outside, it looks just completely deranged that people have gone this nuts about a director's cut of a movie.

10:27And yet, and it's become bigger and bigger. And as you always say, those voices are just the loudest. Most people who like Star Wars are not like this. And most people who like DC are not like this. but it just those the loudest voices really have taken over and it has become fandom in so many ways and in so many different strains of fandom have bizarrely become a form of identity politics well you have to be obsessional you have to want to there are certain types of people who will spend eight hours a day on bulletin boards and almost everyone in the world will not do that and there is something about your personality that if you are able to spend eight hours a day on a bulletin board, it says something about you.

11:09I loved this expression, a purity spiral. Yeah. Oh, there's some really interesting things about how purity spirals form. And there's actually an incredible deep dive article about one, which I'll try and put into the show notes, about a knitting circle. No, no, I mean, it's quite extraordinary, but it becomes so completely awful and it becomes caught up with all different types of identity politics. It's honestly just some people who got together and formed an online community because they like knitting and it becomes beyond toxic. It's really such an interesting long, deep dive article. I thoroughly recommend and I'll put that in the show notes.

11:47Do you have any, have you ever been aware of like a, like some, like a sort of provisional wing of extremist Thursday murder club fans? Not especially. It was interesting with the film that there were certain things that changed from the book that people got very exercised about. But as far as I can see, in quite a fun way, it seems to have been, oh, we'd have loved this, we'd have loved that. I hope in the next movie they do this, they do that. And so, yeah, that feels like quite a healthy, enjoyable version of this. But to speak to the actual question, to Thomason's question, do you think Zack Snyder is comfortable with that?

12:23Do you think actually it feeds into his brand and to the movies that he makes? Well, as I said, it's always nice when they're not doing it to you. And I've never seen him come out and say, this is absolutely disgusting. Don't do this in my name. But as I also said, it's something so awful happened to him in his personal life. It's probably not the number one priority is dealing with this particular aspect of something that he mostly can't control. but I think you know I think it's very difficult for people you just anything you say to some extent just makes these things worse but as always when something quite fortunate is happening in your favor you have to really set a step back and think yeah but what's the right thing to do here because otherwise as I say it can be just you know oh well I won't get in the way of this thing that is singing my praises to high heaven.

13:19Well I've got a question for you Richard about Bake Off outfits from sarah o'day i hope i've said your surname right sarah she's watching the new series of bake-off and once again find myself screaming at the television why are the contestants always made to wear the same outfit two days in a row we the audience know it's filmed over the two days so they could have two outfits aren't they sweaty and covered in flour from the first day thank you sarah for that question uh this this is i could probably answer this myself but uh the lovely wardrobe mistress on house of games and lots of other shows i do and she works with lots of uh on lots of big entertainment shows sharon smith works on bake off and she does all the costumes and wardrobe mainly for the talent so because and she is i love sharon to bits but she she loves having her voice out there she does it every time we used to do like on pointless if ever we did like an east ender special we would we would do like a little pre-titles tease on the square and it would always be Sharon walking out of the house going, Oi Zander, I'm having your baby.

14:19So I knew that Sharon would be delighted to turn us a voice note and tell us the exact answer to Sarah's question. I will say this. I think in the history of this podcast, every single time someone has given us a voice note or filmed something for us, they always start by saying, Hello Marina and Richard. I'll say this. You can tell the sort of relationship we have that that is not how Sharon starts this, but she does have an answer to your question, Sarah. Hello, Marina. In answer to the question regarding bakers wearing the same outfit for two days, no, we don't try and pretend that it's all filmed over one day.

14:53There's clear parts where we sort of say, well done, bakers, get some rest tonight and we'll see you in the morning. But they're kept in the same outfits pretty much because there's lots of interviews that are filmed across the two-day period. And those interviews might be social media or they might be interviews that go into the show. So it looks far smoother to have a one-hour show where everybody's in the same outfit rather than jumping in and out of different tops and distracting the viewer. it's easy to keep them all in the same thing and they also do get messy for continuity if they make a mess on one day that mess is still there the next day on their tops unless it's something really drastic like our wardrobe department pretty much look after the judges and the presenters they don't really get too involved in the bakers unless something drastic happens like say for example a mixer exploded and they got completely covered in cake mix then we would obviously go into the rescue or their button broke fell off or their zip broke or something like that but other than that they're just kind of left to it they're just asked to bring nice bright colors to wear underneath their aprons and off they go i hope that helps that does help thank you so much sharon she'll be so happy to have her uh her voice on the podcast but it is that thing sarah you don't don't please don't scream at the tv but if you are making a show like that that you are you are making so many other things these days you're not just filming those two days you are filming so many clips social media clips all sorts of things also there might be something if you know if you do a uh an interview with someone on the first day and they say something which actually would work perfectly on the second day and suddenly you can't use it because they're wearing something different so as a producer it doesn't make any difference to anyone that people are wearing different clothes but as a producer it just makes your life so much easier in an edit it also has that thing of especially early on in a series if you are getting to know a whole series of different people and you're not quite sure who's who if they are wearing something distinctive you notice them and remember them more easily whereas if they're suddenly wearing something else the next day there's a bit of our brain in the very early parts when we're not sure who people are where we get confused between people as well so it just makes everybody's life so much easier so if you're watching it again this is always the question if it is something that makes you scream at the television and it doesn't make any sense there will always be a reason there'll be a production reason why it's easier and by all means by the way if any anything else like that crops up do ask us and we'll always be able to ask somebody if not always Sharon but I love that I have a question here from Mark and James O'Moran and about the traitors island and they said my son and I are loving the first series of the Irish version of the traitors it's really good if you haven't seen it we've noticed that the round table looks the same as the one used in the UK version of the show is it the same table if so how is it transported it is not the same table there we go that was a nice easy one they made their own absolute copy because again on a on a tv crew you are surrounded by these brilliant people who can make anything and it's absolutely cheaper to get one of those brilliant people to make an exact copy of something than to dismantle it in the castle up in scotland send it over to ireland dismantle it and send it back so yeah it is not the same table but it's a a testament to the art of set designers that it looks exactly the same That's a nice easy one.

18:01Right, everybody. Shall we now proceed to a break?

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19:13Welcome back everybody. Marina, a question for you from Darren York. He asks, are films able to achieve box office success through a rage baiting, so bad it's good campaign is that is that is that commercially viable oh good question darren in our imagination we think that this has happened quite a lot but actually normally that happens um after release things become cult classics and so on and the audience finds them and embraces them and they become um something that people kind of go back to and they you know they become sort of as I say cult classics funnily enough if you listen to our bonus episode on rocky horror which um isn't bad um the rocky horror picture show but there was a significant flaw in it if you've listened to that episode which lent itself to audience participation which meant that it became that sort of a cult classic so every now and then you get some that are absolutely deliberate um and that they lean into it um fewer than you'd think lots of old b-movies um became you know like sort of killer clowns from outer space attack of the killer tomatoes but sharknado which was made by sci-fi um that was marketed as in even though that was you know relatively recent it was marketed in the way of those old b-movies and the tagline for that was enough said so that isn't that i would say is an instance where they definitely lent into doing it.

20:44Now, one of the really interesting ones that people think was marketed as so bad, it was like with Snakes on a Plane. When that came out, that was New Line Cinema. And when it was announced and people were like, sorry, Samuel L. Jackson's going to be in a movie called Snakes on a Plane. You might remember it, it sort of blew up and it became a sort of, you know, a meme and everything beforehand and fans were suggesting scenes and dialogue. the whole title was obviously very memeable um now so new line took the view that they were going to lean into that whole thing and they did include some of those suggested fan scenes and they did include you know and yet it lost money so that thing that you said at the end of the question which of what you're saying is it commercially do you ever really want to say that something's so bad you can code the language and kind of euphemize it you might want to say don't miss the madness or see it while you still can and there are films that sort of do that or everybody's talking about it yeah everybody's talking about it exactly but you're not honestly saying that this thing isn't very good is just like never do that it's really bad vibes um so you might call it the ultimate midnight screening movie or you you might do anything you can to get audience participation a lot of them start out like i'm certain ones like i mean cocaine bear that was you know everyone you can't make a movie called i mean kerry russell did that but you can't make a movie called cocaine bear without everyone thinking this is obviously supposed to be bad and i'm not you know zombie strippers i'm supposed to go i need to go and see this because they're just making a joke about it um yeah there were there was a movie that actually did surprisingly well um like a little tiny movie it did surprisingly well a horror comedy there was something called the velocipasta which i love um and it's actually just a funny so what i quite like about it is this guy this guy called brendan steard directed when he was at film school he was like either nyu or the tish you know he was one of those new york skip film schools and his phone auto-corrected velociraptor to velocipasta and he was like well i mean what's that film what would that sorry okay fine i'll make that um you know a priest travels to china he gets bitten by a radioactive artifact i've seen bits of this but i haven't seen the whole thing oh pasta like pasta like a yeah like like a like a priest like carbs and he yeah no not like not no not that one um harder to to personify anyway and he turns into a dinosaur when he gets angry um so certain things like that but i mean that's a tiny little sort of you know independent sort of student thing really um most of them start out serious even these things that are like unbelievably bad, like Tommy Wiseau's The Room, that starts out serious.

23:27They become more popular because they can't become part of memes. I personally don't think, as I said, Sharknado is really the only one I can think of them saying, you know, enough said. But even that isn't saying, what you're kind of saying is like, there's a tornado of sharks, right? Come on, why would you not want to see this? So you can code it, but you cannot say, I don't think. It's just why you are nonetheless getting people to leave the house and pay money to see something. You're either deliberately setting out at the beginning to do something that catches a sort of kitsch aesthetic. But once, if you're doing something that isn't trying to do that, it's very hard to turn that into money.

24:07It's difficult to turn ironic watching into money. I couldn't agree more. Try and make me a cult classic. Someone tell you, you say, go on, come up with a cult classic and you can have all the ingredients. It's like someone saying to you, oh, my God, I've read loads of self-help books. I could do one of them. You couldn't, OK, because your heart's not in it. And you think, oh, I could do something so cynical. It's really it's very, very difficult in any kind of artistic project at all or even a literary project or even a self-help book to think I'm that cynical. I can see all the elements of how they do this and I can produce something like that.

24:42Something gets in the way and you won't make something brilliant by accident, but you also won't make a cult classic. you'll just make nothing what it your heart sort of has to be in it which is why the things that do become cult classics they would really definitely trying very hard and it's also that thing of you say oh but me and all of my friends we watch it we we just watch it and laugh at it and and so everyone i know so this must be making money that mainstream culture does not do that there is a part of our culture and we're absolutely part of it that will do that and would enjoy that.

25:16But in terms of actually making big box office, you have to find the heart of culture. And the heart of culture does not ironically watch things. No, you can't. You have to mean it. I mean, obviously, within a fiction, you have to mean it. Yeah. Oh, God. Talking of cynicism, I'm so devastated to have to ask this question, Richard. But I've got to ask you a question, because Simon's written in to say, with the first anniversary of the release of Unleashed by Boris Johnson approaching. Could you guys give us an update of how sales have gone and how that works commercially? Yes, I will. So we worked out that his advance had been£2 million.

25:59So he was given£2 million to write this book. And we gave a few updates on how it was selling. But now it has settled, so we know exactly what it's, you know, it's not still selling. so I've looked into all the numbers this week and spoken to various people at various publishers about exactly what we think about who's made what's money I wish you hadn't had to do this but carry on well it's not all good news it didn't do terribly did not do certainly most political memoirs absolutely disappear and it hasn't done that but it's a question of whether they paid Boris Johnson too much you'll be shocked to learn that they did so Boris Johnson we know how much he's made which is two million pounds that's his advance and then it's a question of on top of that you hope to make royalties so i can tell you now for a fact he has not made royalties so he has not earned out that two million pound advance so since it came out it sold in hardback 150 000 copies which is not terrible it's not great you saw that in a week sorry yeah it's not amazing and it's certainly not two million pound advance level i mean it's not even close to that it's it's absurdly far away from a two million pound advance level so he sold 150 ,000 copies now one of the key things in this world is is your average sale price so when you look at the nilsson ratings they'll show you how many you sold plus they will show you your average sale price almost all books are discounted amazon will discount them quite heavily so you'll see the average sale price now the average sale price for boris's book i think the recommended retail price is 30 the average sale price is 17 and sometimes again if you see that written about in the press they go oh it's half price and it's not it's put at 30 pounds so that you know you can discount it and still be making money and 17 pounds is actually a pretty good per unit sale price you look at some of the freedom at fadden books that are huge at the moment it'll have an average sale price of four pound 30 or something like that but for even for a hardback 17 is is not bad so you multiply 17 by 150 you get somewhere around 2.5 million so the book in total has grossed 2.5 million in hardback you want to add in your audio and things like that as well let's say three and a half million it's made the publisher who in this case is harper collins if a book makes 3.5 million the rough rule of thumb is once you've taken out retailers and what have you the publisher will see back about half of that so they'll see back about 1.75 million now you've got to take all your costs out of that as well it's not like a movie but there are substantial costs so maybe that takes them down to 1.3 1.4 million something like that so they have paid boris johnson 2 million i'm going to say and this is again not just my numbers but various people i talked to maybe they've made back 1.3 1.4 million so they're losing 600 000 they still have the paperback to come they have overseas sales neither of those are going to be enormous is he big in japan for this but not so much not so much he's not like the verossa he's not like the veloci pastor uh harper can say they've made money on this but i've speaking to every single person i can from every single side of the business no one could work out how they have made money as we talked they weren't serialization rights because boris johnson's got a you know it's column with with the daily mail so over the over the you know the lifetime of this book it may well be that harper collins would be able to say we will probably wash its face we'll probably clear that two million but this this is not a book that is kind of they were hoping to sell half a million for example you well you say it's not like a movie but it did have a he did do a christmas advertising campaign for this book which i yeah i only remember because he was writing his naughty list in this advert and on one of the pages right at the top he wrote richard osmond without any question purely because of this he always does that he lets you know that he's like why are you showing weakness johnson you should have just pretended you'd never heard us talking about you but regrettably he must have heard you analyzing his book sales and and and he allowed it himself to reveal himself as being very upset by it um oh listen he's i mean he's right as i say he's made he's made that two million which he doesn't have to pay back doesn't have to pay back a penny of that but certainly if he'd sold half a million he would have made another what would he have made on top of that he would have made at least another million and a half plus every single sale of every single paperback for the rest of history he'd be making money on at the moment anytime anyone buys his book he is not making any more money so he's made a lot already but he's not making another penny harper collins say they've made money i don't possibly see where they are i heard i i've heard this theory a number of times but i cannot back it up but i say it anyway because i've heard it from a lot of people which is political memoirs tend to get massively overpaid for and i've always slightly wondered why because you think oh at the end of you know when someone's memoir is out they can no longer sort of do you any favors and harper collins almost always do the big political memoirs so certainly for people from the right and the thing i've heard a number of times now is that a publishing company might make a deal with a sitting politician while they're still in power for their memoirs after they're out of power.

31:41And a politician knows that of the things they can cash in on when they leave power, one of the big ones is a memoir. That's one of the big sort of chunks of change that you can get. You know, Boris knows there's two million. And if you are pre-agreeing a deal with somebody while they're still in power, then actually there is some sort of payback for you. You know, you do actually get advantage of that person owing you a favour because they're still in power. I'm not saying that's what happened here, by the way. I'm not saying that Harper Connors has ever done it. I'm not giving any specifics.

32:11But certainly if you were to say, oh, by the way, at the point where you do leave power, shall we pre-agree that you'll get a million pounds for your memoirs or whatever it is? And that sort of makes some sense because then you don't really have to make money out of it because you've already got your money's worth in a different way. But this book has not sold terribly. 150 ,000 hardbacks is a good sale if you had a half million pound advance. Then everyone's laughing. Boris Johnson's making royalties. HarperCollins are making money. But if you pay somebody two million pound and you sell 150 ,000 hardbacks, then everybody is losing out apart from the person who has given two million pound in the first place.

32:57I think that about wraps us up for today. Yeah, isn't it just? Pleasure as always. A great pleasure. We will return tomorrow with a really interesting bonus episode, I think, because it's about script doctoring, which is a sort of deliberately unsung part of the movie business. But there's lots of interesting stuff about that. People who have sort of flown in for a week just to punch things up and get paid a huge amount of money for a very small amount of time and usually have their names kept off the final script as well. Yeah, it's fascinating. And it always has been for like how many decades of Hollywood history.

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