Bond and Meghan Markle’s Big Gamble

0:00Tron Ares has arrived. I would like you to meet Ares, the ultimate AI soldier. He is biblically strong and supremely intelligent. You think you're in control of this? You're not. On October 10th. What are you? My world is coming to destroy yours, but I can help you. The war for our world begins in IMAX. Tron Ares. Rated PG-13. May be inappropriate for children under 13. Only in theaters October 10th. Get tickets now. Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina High. And me Richard Osmond, hi Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? I'm really well, it's lovely to see you.

0:41It's very nice to see you. I've been squirrelling away this week. I've nearly, nearly, nearly finished the new Thursday Murder Club book. I can't believe it. You have really put some pace on in the last few weeks. I'm over 90 ,000 words, so I could stop now. Just put the handbrake on. But it hasn't finished. I could just leave it where it is. But we've got a title as well now, which I'm not allowed to say, but I'm hoping maybe we could exclusively reveal on the podcast at some point. I'm going to force you to do that. Excellent. Yes. And your week? Yeah, it was quite strangely quiet, but I'm looking forward to a rambunctious morning.

1:15Yes. Because what are we talking about? Oh, if you're looking for rambunction, you've come to the right place. We're talking about Megan's new show on Netflix with Love, Megan. Yes, we are. We are also, as you know, we talked about James Bond last week and there have been significant developments. Haven't there, Jess? Almost within minutes of the podcast dropping. Of minutes of the podcast dropping, but I have a lot of insider stuff on that, which I think is really interesting and quite sad in some ways. But also, by the way, we're not ignoring the whole what's cool and what's not cool for Argo that happened after our Questions and Answers edition.

1:48But we are going to talk about that in our Questions and Answers edition this week. We can't do it now. Oh, we're talking about it. It would take up the whole thing, but I have things to add. Oh, my God, really? How brave of you. Right. Anyway, after its debut is delayed for the LA Wildfires, next week is going to see Megan's show, a sort of lifestyle show, launch on Netflix. And actually, last week, she did a little sort of Instagram video explaining that her brand, that What Three Words brand... American Riviera Orchard. Every time I have to think about it, American Riviera Orchard, is sadly no more.

2:23That brand is now As Ever. As Ever. As Ever. Now, I tell you what, that is a great name for the fragrance that you know I believe she will at some point launch, As Ever. Megan, As Ever. She claimed in that little Instagram video that in that sort of, I'm so excited to share this with you. I always feel when people say, I'm so excited to share this with you, that whatever's coming next will be appalling. Anyway. If you have to say, I'm excited, you know you're not, because you show you're excited. I mean, just talking, you could see, oh my God, she looks really excited. Whereas if you're going, me, I am excited.

2:52Do you think, well, tell your face, love? I'm so excited to share it with you. Anyway, she says that Netflix are my business partners. That's a real citation needed. I would love to know more about that particular deal. So when they stepped away from their royal duties, Meghan and Harry signed various deals. One was for him to do this book with Penguin Random House. One was with Netflix, which was sort of 100 million. And one was with Spotify, which I think was in that kind of overall creator thing. Maybe they were around$20 million. Yeah, and the story of it all is you start off doing the projects you want to do.

3:21and then when no one watches them you do the projects that the people pay and you want to do. Well Netflix managed to get them and that was the biggest ever debut that the Meghan and Harry documentary that was I think their biggest ever documentary debut at the time I don't know if it's been surpassed by Beckham but it's only something like that would have surpassed it. It was huge. They came out of the traps quite quickly with that because that was watched everywhere and it was number one all around the world and that's what they don't forget that's what they want Netflix. They want globally appealing shows.

3:45As we know they paid Meghan and Harry like$100 million for sort of overall production deal. She does say they're going to sell her products in whatever those may be, in their bricks and mortar stores, which is a whole separate item. And we're going to come to that on a different episode of the podcast, because it's very interesting what Netflix are doing, moving into these kind of bricks and mortar things. But there is a trailer for the Netflix show, which actually dropped a while ago. I mean, you know, it's lifestyle. She's picking some flowers. Some celebrity friends are dropping over. Mindy Kaling, there's a chef.

4:17She wants to create, as she says, she wants to create joy in every moment. What would create joy for me is people stop talking about creating joy. There's something so sort of extreme and religious about that. But also in every moment. In every moment. Honestly, you can have too much joy. Don't you think? She says she's always loved taking the idea, taking something pretty ordinary and elevating it. Like Harry. I was just, oh, you beat me to it. Sorry. But also, of course, we don't actually think that. I'm joking. No. But Netflix says this is going to reimagine the genre of lifestyle programming.

4:51At this point, they've just got to say anything because they're$100 million in the hole for these people. OK, so I think we should start by talking about what type of show she's fronting to achieve this. Can she do it? Can she become a guru? That's the interesting thing because actually the prize is enormous. If you can become a Paltrow or a Martha Stewart, then the money is sort of endless. And it's possible that she can do. Certainly, you know, everything you see looks great and the celebrities look great. And, you know, she's chicken roasted chicken. Yeah, but that's what people like. People like Instagram.

5:25That's really interesting because you see, I'll tell you what, I know that Netflix is looking for that kind of programming where people just say you can have it on. I will come to whether I think you can have Megan just sort of randomly on as a form of wallpaper because she's so polarizing. But anyway. But she's not polarizing if you like her. If you like her, then you want to watch it. It doesn't, the lovely thing about TV ratings is it doesn't matter that people don't like you because they just don't watch. You know, you don't need most people to watch a TV show. I'm true. And I'm going to come to that at the end of this whole thing because I really want to talk about hate watching.

5:55You know what? I'd be fascinated because I don't buy that hate watching thing apart from the first half an hour or something. And apart from your Instagram clip, I don't buy it in terms of if you, you know, Megan wants to have that show running for 10 seasons. Right. And that's a, that's not a hate watch thing. That's a lot of people. Well, I agree, and there's lots to talk about. We'll get there, we'll get there. But let's look at what the show is. There's a lot of, there appears to be what I would call a lot of farm-to-table bullshit. It's the kind of rosemary cocktail garnish of it all. They should have called it that.

6:24You know, that slightly religious way of talking about, you know, laying the table, tablescaping in the parlance of the NAF. Tablescaping? Yeah, oh my God, it's, you know, this whole. And so the aesthetic is somewhat trad wife, somewhat luxury would-be mogul, because it's very expensive. It's that sort of... Listen, by the way, maybe it turns into brilliant sass halfway through. We should say it hasn't fully dropped and we don't know. Maybe it's just like an absolutely groundbreaking programme. Maybe it's a sitcom. Yeah. That would be a hell of a way to launch a sitcom. To be honest... She's an actor.

6:57Yeah. Could be. That would be great. It would be absolutely brilliant if it just became like a carburement enthusiasm actually ripping the whole format apart. And you can never make proper sitcoms after this. Yeah, amazing. And Prince Harry plays Jeff. Which is Prince Jeff. Yeah, Prince Jeff. Which is a great idea. But anyway, I don't think we're going to see that. I have to say that sort of dollar for dollar, the deal that Penguin Random House did is much better than the Netflix deal. But remember, they both did deals at the sort of time when they sort of stepped away from Royal Duties. And that book, his book sold so unbelievably.

7:29Insanely well. And I think they paid 16.5 million or something like that. They were made out like bandits on that. That made a huge amount. And also the documentary they did for Netflix did good money. Everything else Netflix has invested in them has not really paid off. The polo series that Harry did, for example. So this is a big swing. And if it works, then actually that 100 million will look like good business. But it's all she's got to go with. The TV they've made is like TV that they think people should be watching rather than what people want to watch. You know, there was some series called Live to Lead, which was about global justice activists.

8:03Yeah, no thanks. That's not going to be a rating smash. I'm sorry to break it to you, but, you know, the polo documentary. Yeah. All of that's just been a washout. The story is themselves, and it only ever has been, but they can't continue to complain about their terrible treatment at the hands of the royal family because they don't appear to have any contact with them to speak of. They live in the lap of luxury. They've got Netflix money. Yeah, they've got Netflix money. Which is even more than queen money. So they cannot whinge anymore. So they've got to find a new thing to do. Well, I think they've got to find joy in every moment.

8:34Yeah, they've got to create. No, create. I'm so sorry. No, she is the presiding intelligence. She's not foraging for joy. No, no, no. She's the godhead. You're the person, you know, you're supposed to be the worshipper. It's difficult because in the type of show this is, all these kind of shows, she's had to return to social media, which, by the way, she spent a huge amount of time slagging off and how toxic it is. But then she's had to come back on it. So there are people who are native to those, particularly like Instagram and that kind of platform, the Kardashians. And you can see those kind of plot lines and it sort of works.

9:03But I think that because of her position and because of what's happened to them and who they are, they have to be more buttoned up. And they can't surrender. You're never going to see, you might see her crying in the Meghan and Harry documentary about this or that. But they can never do that again now because it's over and that plot line is finished. And they can't really do the extended universe in the same way the Kardashians because their extended universe very quickly is King Charles. And people who are not going to appear on this program. Imagine how much of a hit this would have to be before King Charles went, do you know what?

9:32I actually... I need this more. I might go down there and cook a roast chicken. Can she become... The question of whether she can become a guru is interesting. There are like housewife influencers, tradwife people. There's people like Nara Smith, Hannah Neilman. But they're on TikTok and they're on Instagram. This is not Netflix. It's weird. This sort of feels like looking at it. It feels like something that should be on social media rather than a platform. Even Gwyneth Paltrow, when she went on Netflix, and I've watched every episode of The Goop Lab, She knew that what that show had to be was not like all the rest of her lifestyle stuff that she does on Goop.

10:08It had to be the absolute fringe woo woo. You know, they had to be going with Wim Hof. They had to be doing the like psychedelics and all of that stuff. And it had to be really out there. So you think Megan might have might do psychedelics. No, that's a headline. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't think she can do. As I say, she's too buttoned up. She can't be that sort of person. But the big gurus are clearly no one is as big as Martha Stewart. Gwyneth, for a time, was a sort of Gen X Martha. Meghan clearly wants to be a millennial Martha. Goop was, and I say that, was the lodestar for celebrity brands.

10:44You get to be that thing that they all want to be when they start wanting to be just celebrities. They want to be a tastemaker and they want to be a revered CEO. And whatever you think about Gwyneth Paltrow, she really did a nice job with that. Yeah, it's interesting. She did a nice job. She created a brand around her personality, but it's very coherent. She has got very good taste. She is incredible at drawing eyebrows. She's incredible at drawing eyeballs. Which are harder. I find eyebrows easier to draw. As soon as you get to eyeballs, I'm like, honestly, I'm just going to colour this in black.

11:18But eyebrows, I can do. She's very incredible at drawing eyebrows. But Goop is really faltering. I think in the last year, you know, it's not a start-up anymore. It hasn't ever made a profit, which isn't unusual in a startup. But how can you call it a startup anymore? It basically started in 2008. So it's been going a long time. And that thing that they always talk about, you know, it's going to get bought, there's going to be IPO or whatever. It's sort of always receding. I think they had three rounds of layoffs in the second half of 2024 alone. Yeah, but beautifully scented. Yeah, amazingly.

11:48But I struggle to think how Megan can actually do it. We do live in slightly different times now. I think so. If I were being cynical, I would say that the brands that really work in that area come from the ground up and have an authenticity to it. And, you know, I'm sure that people are playing a part, but you believe that someone is in their own house doing their own things and you attach yourself to the one who you most feel like. This feels like there's a path Megan could have taken where she starts this from the ground up with no money, films it herself and, you know, gets an organic audience who fall in love with her.

12:21Organic in all sense. Organic in all senses. But Netflix is one of the few places who will give you 100 million. You're not going to get that from Instagram or TikTok. There isn't the money there. So she has front-loaded the success of this. And if it fails, it's hard to think she'll make an awful lot more money than the first bit of money that she got. But if it succeeds and it does become a goop, then great. I think it's hard. If I were her and Harry, this is a deal I would have done. This is the program I would make if I were Meghan. If that's her lifestyle and these are her people, But it gives her, as you say, the things she's done before, you know, the podcast with archetypes, which again is about who you are as a human being.

12:58Again, it's what she feels we ought to be listening to rather than what we want to listen to. Exactly. They've gone through that period. I imagine she'll be able to pepper some of that stuff into what she's doing. I imagine if she's got people around for dinner, she could have interesting people around for dinner. I mean, we're focusing on the roast chicken, but at the same time we find out something about being a social justice warrior. That, I imagine, is what they want to do. But this is the way around to do it. If you're going to do something... Well, this is the last throw of the dice for Netflix with these two.

13:24Oh, for sure. They're coming to the end of the deal. They're like, this is it. We don't want any more of the worthy documentaries. It doesn't feel unreasonable, though, as a throw of the dice. It doesn't seem crazy. Well, I also agree. And if I may now begin to talk to you about hate-watching. Yes, of course. Okay, hate-watching. Variety, which is the sort of magazine that covers Hollywood, they did a survey with this... It was actually run by a sort of polling company called Canvas, and they did it in 2016. and it suggested then their figures that hate watch dramas increased viewership at twice the rate that love watched dramas did.

13:57And they did this, they cross-referenced tweets, positive and negative, with Nielsen ratings, which is the US TV rating system. But they did it again in 2023, seven years later, and they found it had an increased 79 % hate watching just in the previous year alone. Netflix accounted for 50 % of all hate watching comments, all of them saying, I'm hate watching. I agree, maybe people lie about why they're actually watching it. But also, as you know, comments are absolutely, I mean, that's not a polling organisation's job to look at comments. But it is popular. What's the show, a worldwide smash, that is a worldwide smash because people don't like it?

14:33They say, people will always tell you, Emily in Paris, and people say, I hate watching it. Everyone says it. I think they love it, but they can't say it out loud. I agree. Having said that, it helps when these shows come and they're bingeable. So you've got Hangover and you'll watch like four hours of it. it's like a four hour doom scroll or whatever and you'll get completely involved in it an eyeball is an eyeball as we've said before an eyebrow is an eyebrow we all know one when we see one and hate watching it causes release of dopamine adrenaline, serotonin so I do think that chemically Megan's show could have a whole lot going for it maybe not the psychedelics I think people sometimes hate watch the first episode of something certainly in the old days appointment to television you would do it I don't buy it.

15:19Of course it adds some things and it makes a noise, but you cannot have a career in television, you cannot have a career in any of the creative arts without connecting with an audience who love what you do. You can't do it. I agree with that, but there are certain shows that don't... We do know that social media has, to a large extent, changed sometimes the way we watch television and that people want to be part of various conversations, they want to second screen it, they want to be... So it has changed, not in all cases, but in some cases. And there are certain shows that are sort of lightning rods for that.

15:52And often, you know, a show that, there's many shows that come out on like New Year's Day and everyone's like, I watched it when I was hungover on New Year's Day. I hated it. But of course I watched the whole thing. And there is a lot of that sort of stuff about and people like go into a frenzy of being part of the conversation. I think it is actually a thing and I do think it makes a difference. I think it's guilt watch, not hate watch. That's what I think. I think people feel, yeah. I know what you mean, but I think they enjoy being part of a negative conversation. Sorry to say, people enjoy being part of a pylon.

16:20Otherwise, it wouldn't keep happening. And Megan is an absolute lightning rod for that. I was reading there's one of the... I think this might be the worst article I've ever read in a national newspaper. I've got a third worst I've ever read. So I was reading this article. It was about Megan and it's about her. Everything she ever does, she copies. So it's saying, oh my gosh, she's not got an original thought in her head. By the way, the secret of all creativity is nobody has an original thought in their head. That's the point. It's how you package your unoriginality. But can I just go through some of the things that they accused her of?

16:51She wrote a book called The Bench and there was another book called The Boy on the Bench and it said both of these books explore themes of father-son relationships. They feature similar titles. Yeah, it's got bench and colour illustrations. Most books have the same colour illustrations. But the author of The Boy on the Bench addressed the allegations and she said, this is not the same story or the same theme as The Boy on the Bench. I don't see any similarities. But still they put it in the article. I mean, literally the author of the other one herself I said, no, no, I know it says bench. I have to get to 40 paragraphs.

17:19That's three. And then the archetypes podcast, of course, we talked about. They were saying, oh, interestingly, just six years earlier, there was a book called Archetypes. And both of these works delve into the concept of archetypes and their influence on personal identity. Yeah, that's what everything does that all the time. And also, yeah, that's a word in the English language. So people are going to use it. So that's not so. I'm not saying it's original, but she hasn't directly gone. Ah, a book called Archetypes, you say. Let me look into what that word means. I am interested in that. I'm going to do that.

17:46That's not what happened there. The initial launch of American Riviera Orchard, Megan faced allegations, air quotes again, because that's how they always write, which means one person on Twitter said, of mimicking Goop. A promotional video showcased Megan preparing a roast chicken, which is very reminiscent of Goop's early content. Yeah, people cook roast chicken. Critics, again in air quotes, one person on Twitter, pointed out the parallels which extended beyond content with both brands. I mean, if this isn't a rip-off, then this is how you can tell that she's ripped it off. Both brands focusing on wellness, lifestyle tips, and personal growth.

18:20Yeah, again, I think maybe she hasn't gone, lifestyle tips and personal growth. That's interesting. I could deal with that. The logo of As Ever has come under fire. Okay, so the logo of As Ever. Oh, I saw this bit. This is such bullshit. It's a palm tree flanked by hummingbirds. And that has drawn, air quotes again, immediate criticism, immediate criticism. Do you know who from? I love this. It's drawn immediate criticism for its striking resemblance to the coat of arms of Pereira's, a small town in Mallorca. The town's emblem, dating back to 1370, is a palm tree between two birds. The mayor, Shiske Mora, said, we don't want our coat of arms being perverted and urged Meghan to reconsider because of the distress caused to residents.

18:58I can tell you exactly what happened there. The news editor's like, right, what does this look like? Get on a plane to Mallorca now. I want you to hear, I want to get the mayor, I want as many people saying that they are up in arms about this. Take a picture, say she's going to be in the paper if she just gives us a quote. Just saying that, you know, it's had a long history, this thing, and, you know, she shouldn't be cashing in. And then whoever wrote this article has surely delivered. And then the name, as ever, they're saying an Arizona-based photographer called Jen voiced her frustration, air quotes, as her photography business, named in honour of her late grandmother, is also called as ever.

19:32She tagged Megan and Netflix into her posts and said, this, by the way, I quite admire Jen because she's shooting her shot here. She's like, she's called it as ever, and that's fine. And she knows, you know, Megan's allowed to call it as ever. She says, when the most famous people in the world start using your business name of over 12 years, that you named in honour of your grandmother, seems like they could throw me a little bone. Yeah, Gem. By little bone, what do you mean? Do you mean a little parcel of cash? I'm not living in your pool house. Yeah, come on, man. Let me live in your pool house.

19:58I don't want to be in the main house. Could I have a pool house? The best rabbit hole I went down, though, is this. It says, with Love, Megan, viewers, quickly drew comparisons. By the way, no one's seen With Love, Megan yet. So viewers, again, has to be in air quotes. Quickly, air quotes, drew comparisons to Emma's Kitchen, a series by Emma Weymouth, the Marchioness of Bath, established in 2015. I probably went down a rabbit hole. It says, again, I'm quoting this terrible article, both shows feature similar formats, with hosts sharing personal recipes and lifestyle tips from their respective homes.

20:25Critics, air quotes, highlighted not only the structural similarities, structural similarities, someone cooking in their house, come on, you know, seen James Martin, but also Meghan's choice of attire and set design, looks like a kitchen, which appeared to mirror elements of the previous show. Now, Emma's Kitchen, listen, I'm sure it's terrific, I've seen loads of it. There was literally one person on Instagram whose entire account is anti-Megan saying, look at this show. And it's a little Instagram thing. She's done like 150 posts in nine years, Emma's Kitchen. This is not a thing. It's a thing that someone's found on Instagram.

20:56This entire article, I won't even say what newspaper it's in, every single bit of it, every single paragraph just drips with disdain for Megan. There's nothing that stands up here. I think if I was Megan, I'd be doing this show. If I was Netflix, I'd be doing this show. I wouldn't have given them 100 million in the first place. It might work. I can say chemically, I think it has a lot going for it. I think it's going to hit a lot of people's releases. Yes. I think, as you say, a lot of people will... It's a real farm to cortex show. Yes. Listen, whether it's hate watch or whatever it is, a lot of people will want to have an opinion on it and will want to have watched it.