Can Song Lyrics Get You Arrested?

0:00The Rest is Entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, show business is full of people who start out as one thing, but then take on some completely new role that completely eclipses it.

0:10Richard Osman:And before we get on to how Octopus Energy has done that, a few examples. There are people who start out, you know, bands as singers, as actors. A good example would be Victoria Beckham. She started off in a band, Richard. She was in a band called the Spice Girls. You're going to tell me next that David Beckham used to play football before he became an advertising guy. They have earned far more from their second careers, these businesses they've built up, than they ever did in their first ones. So the idea that she's a singer, that gets her through the door, gets her known, the culture knows who she is.

0:42Richard Osman:She then thinks, I'm going to see if I can do something else. And she has the audience who, if she does it well, goes along with her. But do you know what it reminds me of a lot? Tell me. It reminds me of Octopus Energy, because Octopus Energy has also outgrown its own introduction. It's the UK's largest energy supplier, but is now also one of the country's biggest installers of heat pumps, solar panels and batteries. The list even reaches the driveway with a major electric car leasing business as well.

1:14Hello and welcome to this episode of the Restless Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hines.

1:20Richard Osman:And I'm Richard Osman. Hello listeners, hello Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? I'm very well. I'm going to be interviewing John Grisham next week. So if anyone has any questions for John Grisham, I think he's one of the greatest thriller writers of all time. So any questions about writing about his specific stuff, the amount of movies they've made of his stuff, what he spends all that money on. Anything you want, if you send that into the rest of his entertainment at goalhanger.com and I will put your questions to John Grisham. But talking of questions. We have many. Can we begin with The Fringe, which is currently going on in Edinburgh?

1:52A question from Bonnie who says, I'm an American, don't worry about it, and I've noticed that quite a few American comedians are going to be performing at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival this year. In a past episode, you explained how the Fringe is no longer the place where you get discovered for a TV panel show and it's expensive. So why would American comedians be performing for a month in Edinburgh? What's the benefit to them?

2:13Richard Osman:Well, funny enough, because, yeah, we did a couple of years ago, we said, you know, now this thing of, you know, the Fringe is very expensive and it's not getting the career moves you once got. And that was an issue. But it wasn't an issue for long because, you know, as always, creativity and art sort of self-corrects. And so now you get the situation in Edinburgh where you don't have to suddenly put up 8 million posters and spend a load of money on marketing and publicity because you were only ever doing that for about four people anyway, who were the four exec producers of those big panel shows.

2:42Richard Osman:And now you don't have to. All you really have to do is do a great show. Edinburgh, if you go up this year, it's got far more like it used to. you know there's far more people just doing good shows i talked to david o'doherty who sort of i would call him the king of the fringe he would he would not call himself that but you know he said the whole point of going to the fringe he said is 28 days of doing the same show absolutely honing it seeing exactly what audiences respond to what they don't respond to and you know in a place where you know there's an audience who really really wants to come and see comedy he said and outside of you doing that show 28 times and making it better you're seeing 20 other shows that are better than yours.

3:22Richard Osman:And so every day you think, okay, I need to be better than this person. I need to absolutely raise my game. And that's what the fringe always was. And David is saying, well, look, that's what it's becoming again, because these marketing costs are coming down. And so if you're an American comic, it's sort of exactly the same. It doesn't really cost you any more than a British comic to come in. All you've got is an airfare to put on top of everything else. You know, accommodation is still expensive for acts who are up on the fringe, but certain venues now like the monkey barrel give very very good splits on the door for the money you're making so for the first time if you talk to comics this year people are starting to make a bit of money at the fringe if they're coming along with a really really good show if you're a first timer it's still difficult of course it's difficult all these things are difficult and you know sometimes it has to be a lost leader but the fringe seems to be recapturing a lot more of what it was and a lot more of its spirit and again it's that amazing thing and we about it all the time with AI, with everything is creative people will find a way.

4:18Richard Osman:And if there's something about what you've grown, which at the Edinburgh Fringe has grown, you know, for years and years and years, it will endure. And comics want to be there. Comics want to be with other comics. Comics want to find someone where there is an audience for what it is they do. And it is finally becoming a lot cheaper. And it's becoming a lot cheaper because they're not having to worry about getting on the panel show circuit. And because so many of them are already making money by doing their own videos. And so many of them making money on Instagram and TikTok and things like that.

4:48Richard Osman:There's a lot of shows up there at the moment with people who are very, very online. So I think it's a rare sort of thing of, you know, sometimes they go, oh my God, there are salmon back in the Thames. You know, somehow we've cleared it up. And it feels a bit like Edinburgh this year. It feels a bit like the salmon are returning to the Thames, which is great. A couple of recommendations from David. In fact, the thing about David O'Doherty is he always knows who's next. You know, he's the first person he records. Sam Campbell, to me, Lolly Adafopey. Loads of people. He's always on it. Paddy Young, he said his show is great.

5:21Richard Osman:And Paddy is the guy who is on the Weekend Update desk on SNL. So people will already know him. There's a lot of SNL alumni up there this year. Bella Hull, one of the writers, also doing a show up there. Bollywood Spider-Man, he says is terrific. Kate Dolan, he says is terrific. But again, this is why I love the Fringe. And this is why it will never die. he says the show that everyone is talking about, it's a guy called Ollie Horn, and the show is simply called The Most Toast. And the entire show is, Ollie, by the end of the show, will work out which audience member has eaten the most toast in their life.

5:56Richard Osman:And as so often with Edinburgh, when you go, but that isn't a show, and then you turn them and go, oh, it is a show. Yeah, it's a miraculous creative journey. I love these. There's some really good ones. It's exactly what you want, right? Consequently, quite bad asking you the next question. from Natalie Craig who says what's the worst thing you've ever seen at the Edinburgh Fringe? Oh that's it bonus points if you were involved in it Oh well that makes my answer much easier because when I was 16 there was at Lewis Technical College we were doing a play of Danton's Death which is sort of a play set in the French Revolution and I was in it so I went up for three weeks we did it in an old Masonic Hall and you know I was up in Edinburgh I loved it I went to see those of stand up I went to see people like absolutely starting out like Alan Davis and people like that you could just go and see their show and then you're doing this awful awful we had to stand by the door in the interval so so people couldn't leave uh that was absolutely often sometimes it's just or just one well i mean it's certainly not the worst show i saw but but the show where i was in the smallest audience was myself and someone else who's now a very big tv producer we're in an audience of two watching um a new zealand comic who absolutely gave it his all and you know it was but you know it's sort of you know you do have to make eye contact um and that was reese darby who became murray and fly to the concourse oh my god but it's right that was the only year that there was two people at his show he's never had that brilliant and again that's the great thing about the fringe you turn up and there's two of you and you're watching something but you go oh actually he's quite he's actually quite good this guy and then the next year you come back and everyone's watching the same guy and that's the beauty of it and i'm so glad talking to david and talking to a few other the comics who are up there at the moment, that that spirit seems to be coming back to the fringe.

7:39Richard Osman:I've said before, I used to go up every year with my kids as well from the kind of age of seven or eight onwards. There's amazing stuff. Probably the best show I ever saw was The Amazing Bubble Man, where he put my son inside a bubble. I have seen him. It was incredible. Yeah. I've heard only good things actually this year from people who are there at the moment. So I think it's... It sounds great. It feels like... And again, I mean, testament to the people who put it together and testament to the comics themselves and testament to that industry, which is, it's, you know, it keeps regenerating.

8:09Richard Osman:And Edinburgh is a great place to take the temperature of it. And at the moment, the temperature seems fine. I have a question for you from Emily Brampton and her son Connor. Thank you, Connor. They ask, what are your top three movies where the villain wins? Loads of my most favourite movies of all time this happens in. And I've got to have some honourable mentions that don't make the top three. I suppose things like Miller's Crossing or The Godfather, they're films about villains. So some villains win against some other villains. So I think I probably can't classify that as this, but obviously they're incredible movies.

8:47Seven, that's an honourable mention for that. The Usual Suspects, this is hard to leave this one out.

8:53Richard Osman:Yeah, Usual Suspects would be my number one. Yeah, so clever. Okay, there are some spoilers here. I mean, I'm not going to say, but if you've not seen these movies, then. so I would say that at number three Silence of the Lambs I know that a villain gets dealt with but the master villain lives on and wins One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and it's interesting both those two are two of the only three films ever to have won all four major Oscars Best Picture Best Director Best Actor and Best Actress and the other ones It Happened One Night which is a sort of screwball thing with Clark Gable and Collector So that's the way to do a clean sweep of the movie is to have a bid and win.

9:34It's interesting. And my winner, which is actually one of the very, very, very few films for the title to be the last word of the movie, is Chinatown.

9:45Richard Osman:Yes, I thought Chinatown. And I thought of these so quickly and I realised it's funny. There's a movie I really recommend if you haven't seen it because people don't talk about it so much anymore, but I absolutely love it. It's Robert Altman, The Player, and it's a Hollywood satire. and it's hugely influential and obviously there's lots of stuff from the studio that we watch now is kind of derived from it but there's a very funny bit where Richard E. Grant is pitching the movie that they eventually end up making and he's like, and he's trying to explain that at the end, like, you know, effectively the villains win because that happens and then in the end this is not how the movie that they eventually make ends because it has to end on and up and have like Julia Roberts and Bruce Willis in it but actually I realised how many of my all-time favourites the villains win in.

10:31Richard Osman:Yeah, and Chinatown is not really a spoiler because I think you're aware from the beginning that Jack Nicholson's character is very put upon and he's not going to have a hero's arc. Another case crack, Mr Gettys. Yes. Can I add one more, by the way, because I thought it was almost perfect top three, but I'd add No Country for Old Men as well. And again, sometimes if you've got like an uber-villain, the whole point is they're kind of unstoppable and unbeatable and you want them to come back. because that happens because that happens because that happens terrific question thank you so much for that I love that should we go to some adverts let's go to some ads

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11:19Richard Osman:there might be one in the middle yeah you never know in Marvel's ones There's going to be a mid-credits scene, and then there'll be an end-credits scene. I remember the first one I really remember. Well, two, I remember Ferris Bueller's day off, where he tells you to go home at the end. But also Smokey and the Bandit with Burt Reynolds, where they would do bloopers. It just feels like a secret little glimpse into a different world. Yeah, and it doesn't quite have to be over. Yeah, exactly. And it's just a lovely little added bonus. You've done everything. You've made your show. You've given everyone everything.

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12:53Richard Osman:Welcome back, everybody. Marina, Oliver Ng has a question for you. I like Ng as a surname. There's a wonderful writer called Will Ng. I've always liked him. It's his real name, not even a stage name. Hello, Will, if you're listening. Oliver Ng says, what are your thoughts on Rockstar Games announcing an extended preview of their new game Grand Theft Auto 6 on Netflix? The trailer will be available on Netflix six hours before it's on YouTube. What is in this deal for Netflix? and is it a significant move for the games industry? Yes, this is interesting. This is happening next week. I think it's August the 27th.

13:24The game doesn't come out till November the 19th. It's been more than a decade since the last game. And, you know, we should say, and obviously we'll be talking about it more at the time, but this is definitely a claim to be the biggest entertainment release of this year. Definitely. Yeah, probably. On anything. Absolutely. And it's definitely a marketing first. I mean, some people are really angry because, you know, the gaming community is so relaxed. but some people are really angry because they say you know it's a paywall it's like okay well it's a paywall for six hours because they're going to have this thing yes it's a marketing first as I say it might signal a new era where publishers team up with the streamers for GTA it's for Rockstar and for Take-Two who make the game Netflix will have given a great deal for this it's almost more interesting to me in terms of why are Netflix doing this because we've talked about it again.

14:17We talk about it all the time. What they want is appointment to view stuff. This is basically six hours of appointment to view. They think that they will get a few subscriptions. Now we talk about churn and maybe some people will just buy for a month so that they can be online and be part of the conversation online the second it's come out. And they don't want to wait six hours till it's free on YouTube. They want to be talking about it straight away. So maybe people will pay for a month and maybe they'll say, wow, Netflix, this is interesting. okay let me i've not heard of much about this thing let me well that's the thing one of netflix's

14:48Richard Osman:growth areas or areas where it sees there could be some growth is games right they want to get into gaming and they have they do not have they are real like it's like a meme you know all of the stuff they people really laugh at them for their gaming i'm sorry to say and that's something that they have to turn around so if they've got these people for six hours then perhaps they've got something that they want to advertise off the back of that or something they want to drive people towards. So if they are spending, if they've got money coming out of their gaming marketing budget anyway, this feels like maybe this is the biggest bang for your buck that you're going to get because it's such a huge deal.

15:20They really want event television. They really want appointment to view. They really want anything that might drive new subscriptions. And they do want to establish themselves in gaming. So it makes massive sense for them. It'll be interesting to see what it does if we get any figures back.

15:36Richard Osman:And for Rockstar, they sort of can't really lose. Despite, you know, there might be a little bit of upset from people, but, you know, that's good. It keeps your name out there. It's only six hours anyway. They collaborate with everybody in different ways. I mean, as I say, this is like one part of an absolutely massive marketing campaign, which we'll be talking about it when it happens because it will be huge. Well, I wonder, the interesting thing about the whole Rockstar thing, as you say, it's been 10 years since the last game, and I wonder what the psychology is and we will discuss it when it comes out they made so much money just money that you couldn't spend in a million lifetimes and what that does to their through line of where they want to go next and stuff like that I mean I'm very very excited about GTA 6 but it's like they're a prog rock band from the 1970s who made so much money in 1972 with a US number one album that they don't come up with another one until 1981 who knows let's see Yeah, let's see.

16:33Oh, a question for you about illegal activities in songs. Charlotte Keir says, often songs include references to illicit activities, most often in revolving drugs. I was wondering whether artists need to be careful about what they include in their songs. Have the police ever investigated an artist based on their song lyrics, or do artists have a form of lyrical immunity?

16:53Richard Osman:Lyrical immunity. Hi, I'm just slashing my badge. Yes. Of lyrical immunity. Yeah. It's such an interesting question, question and it's really really come come much more to the fore in the last kind of kind of five or six years in the british courts because of drill music and the lyrics to that and there's there's there's a culture around kind of boasting about things and so there's been lots of cases where lyrics have been brought into courts as evidence and weirdly there's been a huge increase in the amount of appeals against convictions that were based on those lyrics so it's a really really really current issue in the british courts particularly in the states yeah it's it's always happened.

17:29Richard Osman:I think that the first time someone was convicted on the basis of lyrics was in 1991. There was a guy who was, you know, being accused of being a dope dealer and he said he wasn't. And the police found the lyrics including the lines, I am the biggest dope dealer in town. If it's for personal use, I think you don't get prosecuted. But if you're the biggest dope dealer in town and those lyrics were ruled as proving motive and he was charged harder these days to do that. So I think we understand that sometimes you might say that you're the biggest drug dealer in town, but you might just say that because it's a good lyric, exactly.

18:05Richard Osman:2017, the rapper Tay K recorded his song The Race while he was on the run from capital murder charges. And the song and the video, essentially because the lyrics described in some detail his flight and illegal activities he did during it. So that was counted as admissible. And that's mainly what... It's so hard to cover your tracks. I know. You just say everything. And as I was talking to a British judge about this this week, and she was saying it happens a lot, right? There are a lot of times where lyrics now, especially from trial music, are brought into court. She says almost always now they are inadmissible.

18:45Richard Osman:She said it's very, very easy. Any defence counsel, if the prosecution brings lyrics into court, she said they will literally just say, I just I put it to you that Bob Marley did not actually shoot the sheriff he said and that's such an easy way of just saying that you can say whatever you want in a song it doesn't it doesn't mean that you shot the sheriff uh she says however if there is evidence anyway about particular times and places and people and those are referenced explicitly in a song names yeah real names real Yeah, exactly. And the lyrics absolutely mirror the evidence that is placed in front of the court anyway, then it becomes admissible.

19:28Richard Osman:It becomes extra evidence in court and you're more likely to be prosecuted. If you are referencing something for which there is no other evidence whatsoever, then it is not admissible in court. So it's such an interesting work. As I say, there's lots, especially in drill music, lots and lots of stuff which is pure bravado, but also there have been occasions where real crimes have been referenced, but the court seems to understand the difference of those two. And I think maybe five or six years ago, they didn't understand it quite so much. But these days, if you admit to it, and it's something that we have other evidence for as well, then it will be used against you.

20:04Richard Osman:If you say something that there is no physical evidence for, and there's no sort of phone mask evidence for, there's no kind of, you know, eyewitness evidence for, then it will not be admissible. Interesting though, isn't it? Yeah, really interesting. Good question. Thank you for that one. A question for you, Marina, from Brenda. Your mum's been on. I don't think it's my mum. My mum would have a very different question. Yeah. My mum's question would be, why can't I find Morse on ITV4 anymore? That would be my mum's question. Brenda says, I have a question about the proliferation of BBC radio stations.

20:36Richard Osman:As I write, there are four versions of Radio 1. two versions of Radio 3 and 4, four versions of Radio 5, keep it simple, Brenda, and Radio 6 has just launched Indie Forever. At a time when the cash-strapped BBC is ending much-loved TV programmes, this does not seem to make sense. Ah, right, yes. Well, radio station extensions have done very, very well, particularly actually for commercial radio. People really, really like them. Yeah, absolute 70s, 80s, 90s. Yeah, like they're targeted versions that feel like they're tailored for them. So you might say, oh, I love the master brand of Absolute and I've just want the 70s version or whatever it is.

21:12So it's good for audiences and it's good for commercial radio and therefore just radio in general. And it's really been the story of the evolution of radio in recent times because they've been able to do this. But they've managed to do this by launching on the Internet, which costs nothing because they're sort of just playlists, really. And it's quite cheap. It's not like the days of trying to get FM capacity, which was very hard to come by and was expensive. There's now DAB, which has led to much more capacity for the commercial stations. They used to be really annoyed because the BBC had tons of FM capacity and they didn't.

21:49But DAB, DAB, is still limited. So what they've come up with is this thing called DAB +, which is a way of getting more radio stations into the same amount of capacity.