Could ITV Poach The Traitors?

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1:53Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment, questions and answers edition. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. Hello, Marina. Hello, Richard. How are you? I'm all right. I was right on Tuesday's episode. I've yet to watch another episode of All's Fair. There's still time. There's still time. I just, I don't have the itch. Don't have itch? Not drunk enough. I just, yeah, there's a world in which you've had three cocktails in which you could possibly... I might do. Well, you might just dive in for a moment. I wonder if I could ask you a question. Please do. Well, not me, but Bedware Gulledge has a question for you.

2:25That's a good name. Bedware asks, I would be interested to hear your takes on the furore, which has surrounded the release of Mary Earp's autobiography. When a book is sold for serialisation in a newspaper, how much influence does the author have over what excerpts are published in the paper? Mary Earp, so former England No. 1 goalkeeper, then England No. 2 goalkeeper, and now internationally retired, but still plays for PSG. There's been a huge backlash against her book, All In, which was serialised in The Guardian. And in the serialisation, there was a lot of airing of Dirty Linen, endless beef feuds, sort of drive-by on Hannah Hampton, England number one goalkeeper, on Serena Wiegman.

3:03Then Sonia Bonpasta, the Chelsea women's manager, chimed in to protect Hannah Hampton. And Mary Epps herself has done a number of interviews and online posts in which she said she's tried to sort of do clean up on this backlash and shift the blame to the way that the extracts have been done which is why you're asking this question Bedwick and I understand it and in some cases she's made it even worse so anyway in order to answer this question I've spoken to various people like ghost writers agents and people who do the extracts for these books so how a book like this would work the women's game is very different to the men's game your management are going to think there's a moment for you to cash in and whereas you can be quite long past retirement if you're um in the you play men's football and think actually i will now do my book for women there's this perception that it's kind of a trolley dash you've got to do it while anyone knows who you are yeah and so what happens is that they they find a ghost writer and they they talk a lot the person said marry-ups will have and i think her ghost writer was deborah linton and i think they talk they talk and by the way in sports biographies often completely above board they are traditionally written by ghost writers they're credited and you know some you don't have to be at writing books when you are literally an international and exactly so we team you up with someone who's amazingly good at writing books can do it but not everyone else has to be able to do it and also a lot of ghostwriters a lot of um non-fiction writers love to tell the story of sports people because it there's so much incredible emotion so much jeopardy so much it's you know interesting stories to tell more interesting than saying you know the autobiography of a light entertainment presenter yeah it's interesting that prince harry's biography there was a lot of interesting stuff to be told in that one but you know was primarily known for doing like that amazing andrea agassi book anyway what that ghost writer will then do is shape the book um into a narrative um some kind of an arc rather than just sort of full list and then we get move on to serialization now serialization when you write a book if you get it serialized it's great for two things it's great for publicity because it gets your book out there in places that so that people know it's happening um and you also get money you're paid for that so that comes back against your advance or whatever it is.

5:10So you'll be you'll be pleased with that. Now, The Guardian was a good place for Mary Epps's book to be serialized because there's a lot of women's football cover coverage. There's no paywall. So it's it's a really great place for your book to be out there. OK, now in the old days, what happened and still really to this day, you when you're doing a contract to serialize a book, you you buy a certain number of words, but you've bought the book and you can basically take what you like and you've bought lock stock and barrel and you can you but you'll say okay we're doing a 6 000 word serialization or whatever it is but you're allowed to take pretty much whichever 6 000 i mean you can't just take individual words and then put them together no in a different order that i believe would be transgressive and of course the way this has always worked is that they pick the most sensational or the funny or the dramatic bits but that's not just what they do and we'll come and the most newsworthy bits presumably the bits yeah the bits but that are going to there's a headline that other people are going to think i've got to mention that when you're doing the ghost writing um the book it goes without saying that mary ups signed off yep on every single thing she told those stories she told those stories and she would have been shown the manuscript the answer is there anything here you don't like okay i bet some people don't read it yeah well of course it's fine i said it all so i'm sure it's yeah yeah anything i said is okay but i do have time to read my own book like some of the forms i sign yes i don't know when's the last time you ever like read a form yeah I mean, a long time ago, right?

6:35Yes. Anyway, nowadays, because they'll always try their luck, agents do try and push back on some bits and say, well, if you take that, that's obviously just going to be the only story that comes out of the book, and we don't really want that. And sometimes they'll get a fair hearing, or sometimes the people who are contextualising will say, okay, we'll take it, but we're going to put in what leads up to it and whatever happens. So I've talked to the people who buy and extract and run these serialisations, and they will say to you, we're not running a trailer for your book so a lot of people just think can you just basically run a trailer for my book no the extract for the readers needs to work as a complete story it needs to have a beginning a middle and an end and not just be some sort of giant teaser that i'm sure you'd love it if you were the author of the book or the subject of the book you want to get a microcosm of the narrative within that and i think the merry-ups book i think does contain that and so someone like um rob fern at the guardian who didn't extract this book but he extracted for example, the Virginia Giuffre memoir that The Guardian ran a few weeks ago, talked quite interestingly about that and thinking, well, we knew we wanted the Prince Andrew stuff because obviously that's the most newsworthy and that's going to be the bit.

7:40But we also wanted that moment where she first walks into sort of Mar-a-Lago and she's scouted basically by Jelaine Maxwell, Virginia, because you wanted the absolute very start of all this and then the bit that everyone's... So to find a way of doing that is kind of quite difficult and it's sensitive and you have to sort of trust a publication with your sensitive material. So what went wrong with Mary Earps's book? I would say that that process has to be, you've got to be pastorally cared for by a manager who's going to say at the ghostwriting stage, they will extract, if you're going to, or certainly the selling of the rights, right?

8:15You're going to say they're going to pick out all these bits. And her pretending or genuinely perhaps thinking, I don't understand why they've done this. It's kind of not acceptable. but you should, it's a failing of the kind of agent or management care that really, if she really didn't understand. And if she did, then you can't really blame the extractors. What were the, I love the way you say the extractors, as if they're like the SAS or something. Yeah, you can't claim the people who've chosen those things. She obviously aired a lot of her dirty linen. What were the specific things that she's been in trouble for?

8:47There's so many, there were particular drive-bys on like Hannah Hampton, on Serena Weigman. And if you're going to attack teammates and people who are still playing and people who have got to play in a game that Saturday, which is why Sonia Bompasta got involved from Chelsea. I mean, yes, it's difficult. And no one has stood up for her. And I think that's because they think what she's done is unacceptable. And the way she's done it is unacceptable, her teammates. And I've noticed that they've been sort of conspicuous in their silence. But what I think is interesting about why there should be particular care taking this night show, I think to some degree it's a failure of management.

9:21because they're supposed to look after you. Women's football has become like a really odd entertainment space. It's a very different form of fandom than the men's game in lots of ways. And I've seen people say, oh, it's like being a K-pop star or something. You know, you get completely picked apart for people's amusement. It's idiosyncratic. It can be toxic in a different way to the men's. And I think that not understanding all of that or her not having been made aware of it, and then to say to her, you maybe want to stop trying it making it worse by all just going on saying oh this is to do with the way my book's been extracted i don't i don't think that's fair in this case and i think the extract you know the extract was done fairly but maybe she didn't understand what serialization rights mean which is that they pick off these bits and everyone will cover them it's interesting so it's good for the guardian to have these extracts for sure it is good for the publisher yeah to have these extracts for sure because as you say it's one of the key drivers of early sales certainly is if you can get it serialized even even these days because there was a period where serialization was not important because newspapers had really declined and the internet hadn't quite caught up but now it sort of doesn't matter where it's been serialized because that story is everywhere yeah it's literally because everybody scrapes it and puts it on their own site exactly so if you if you're and as you said building it not behind the paywall is is amazing because suddenly you know everyone's reading it everyone's seeing it so it's incredible publicity for that but not great publicity for mary irbs and as you say i'm badly advised i get i guess but i wonder if that is a lifetime of being in a sport that where she felt underrepresented and she was trying to get her voice heard and it wasn't being heard and maybe underestimating quite what a big star she had become and underestimating what a big story women's football had become and how it is now right in the heart of our culture in a way that's incredibly warming but someone is going to be the first victim of that.

11:20Yeah you live in a world of this is my truth but actually sometimes your truth is not very palatable to others and I think thinking that this is my story and I can tell it how I like is a naivety that you you just can't enjoy any longer but I do think there is something peculiar about the fandom around women's football that I think is interesting and that it's much more like other forms of entertainment fandom where people i just think it's quite odd in some ways and it's it's definitely different to the men's game although as we see here can be just as toxic well if it was the men's game you'd immediately be signed up for talk spot breakfast yeah as a as a guest host this is amazing this person isn't it it's hard it's hard with footballers you can see when they've immediately retired they're quite uncomfortable having a go at colleagues it takes them a couple of years before they can really start taking the gloves off oh taking the gloves off um that's what i would have called it that's what she should have called it mary erps taking the gloves off i thought you're talking about the kardashian show because they wore their gloves so much that could have been called gloves off gloves off is an um oh my god gloves off is an unbelievably great title for this autobiography what's it called uh it's called all in yeah it should have been called all in yeah i've just let them all in that's a terrible name for a goalkeeper's gloves is there time can we pulp it well i mean i'm sure you delight many of her her teammates former teammates didn't there any boxing autobiography called gloves off there must be come on i'm gonna look it up yeah you know looking at out there tyson fury gloves off i knew it was good i knew it was good so i guess mary epps couldn't have had gloves off gloves on one glove on one glove off that's what i call it the mary epps story the kind of subtitle of her book is is learning to be unapologetically me yeah maybe and now you're having to learn to be apologetically you i have to warn you that the my truth genre is on borrowed time one glove on one glove off richard for you a question from chris atkinson says previously mega popular bbc shows such as bake off and the voice have switched to rivals after becoming a success as the traitors is not a direct bbc production is there a chance a commercial rival could steal the rights yes absolutely is a chance and people always get annoyed like when Bake Off went to Channel 4 and people had a go at Love Productions for doing it and I think I think it's cheeky of the channel to take it but uh you know I understand why but if you're Love Productions this is you came up with it it's your show you know you've created it and if someone's going to pay you more money for it there's not a business in the world where you wouldn't then just sell it to some somebody else but yeah the traders you might be happy with its impact I mean exactly by the way sell if the traders went to Channel 4 it would still get amazing ratings but it wouldn't get what it gets on BBC One and that's just that.

14:01It would be a cash-in job like you know Love Productions had this huge hit which they weren't really able to cash in that much because you can't do big commercial deals when you're on the BBC and they're on quite a few series of the BBC and I think they took the view I wonder now if after a long career in television if we're allowed to cash in which is what they did and continued to do so it's worked for them it's worked for Channel 4 very very nicely so Traitors with studio lambert is they make it for the bbc bbc have got definite one year left on the deal if studio lambert then decide to take it elsewhere the thing that kicks in which would almost always kick in which is there is usually a one year sometimes a two-year window i suspect a two-year window on the traitors where you are not allowed to show it anywhere else so if they did want to take it to channel four if they wanted to take it to itv and if you're either of those companies why would you not want it they could do it but we'd have to wait a long time for the next one it would cost ITV a channel for a fortune to buy it that's for sure you know there's been Studio Lament have got you know lots of big hits Gogglebox and all sorts of things and people are always trying to poach them and you know there's ways and means of keeping things on channels and making sure that you're still being paid but yeah they could take it I doubt that they would as you say the idea that it's so massive but in like 5 series time if we've moved on to Who knows if I see a return.

15:23Right now, we're all, yeah. I mean, right now, how could they be unhappy with the reaction it's had on BBC One? It's also the director of programmes at BBC, Kate Phillips, commissioned this show. So you can't say, oh, then the regime changed and the bosses changed at the moment. She's absolutely at the heart of it. And by the way, can I just say, we're having, we're very pleased to say, we're having Kate Phillips to do a Q &A next week. We are. She's the head of all BBC content. So any questions you have for Kate. I don't know if there's anything about the BBC in the news. it's your interest at the moment if you'd love to ask a question about it we've got kate next week and she's terrific and do please dig deep yeah and she's behind she's sort of come from an entertainment background says behind all that stuff but you can you can ask her anything about any of those shows so yes i there's there's an absolutely no reason why you would take it from the bbc at the moment claudia is there claudia is happy studio lambert are not a company that is looking to cash out because they've already cashed out a number of times they're not then it's not a situation like love where we thought you know what we're waiting for the one big payday quite rightly and they did it studio lambert have had their paydays a number of times they make race across the world for the bbc so you know they make stuff for um everybody i would think it's safe up until the point where it's down to lower ratings and it would still do a pretty good job for an itv or a channel four but it's less interesting to the bbc at that point studio lambert might say we'll take it elsewhere and claudia would probably step back and someone else do it but that would be in a long time I think I think it's safe and sound I think you talk talking to that amazing gang at studio land but I think they knew even a couple of months ago they were all going you know what this celebrities is pretty good yeah everyone was like it's gosh this is better than we thought it was going to be even though you know and it's you know they're very talented but they were kind of going this yeah I think this is quite something I think they have been taken by surprise about quite how well it's landed and quite what a huge thing it has been and what's coming next i'm so excited that it's acted as a gateway drug into traitordom for people who had not watched the original version and now will be able to in january yeah it's like all the people watching the curling at the olympics who then watch the world curling championships for the next four years but then they disappear for the but these i think these people will be back in january they are sticking around but you know i think that the relationship between the bbc and studio lamp it's very very strong exactly you know they're they're all everyone's everyone's rowing the same boat in the same direction and they're very happy to be doing so so this this this is not immediately at risk for anybody so i wouldn't worry about that i think it's staying on the bbc uh and uh i think it has a very healthy future there too questions about that format and anything else to um to kate phillips please addresses the rest is entertainment at goalhanger.com and we're going to be talking to her next week which will be lots of fun we are indeed um should we do some adverts?

18:09Let's do that.

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20:25Welcome back, everybody. A question to you, Marina, from Al Jones, or possibly AI Jones. Let's take a look at how he phrases it and we'll make our mind up. You have asked a question about Fortnite IP. Is this correct? I think it's AI Jones. No. Al says, I'm curious about how collaborations with major IPs work in games like Fortnite. When a popular franchise, e.g. Simpsons, appears in the game, does Fortnite typically pay for the rights to use the IP? Or do the IP owners pay to have their brand featured on such a high visibility platform? That's a good question. The answer is that it can work in either of those ways and actually sometimes also both at once.

21:00in the form of sort of mutual partnerships. But Fortnite's made by Epic, and for people who don't play it or haven't seen it, it's a game, but from limited time periods, other IP, intellectual property, appears in the form of skins. This is like a way you can look, as your avatar can look. Themed weapons, maps, like little mini games that come off the main game, new bosses to fight. It's kind of like a metaverse where everything gets chucked in, so you can have it's quite hard to explain I mean 15 years ago it'd be like I'm sorry I don't know what you're talking about but then you probably still feel like that way now but it's as I say it's a bit like a metaverse where everything gets chucked in and you can have memes and pop stars and movie characters and fashion brands you can play as Mary Earps yeah you can play as Mary Earps one glove on one glove off yes exactly that's the skin and like a sweet little anime character who's now given a machine gun because they're in Fortnite and so that's what can happen in fortnight even though it wouldn't happen in the game that you click came from so if it's somebody else's ip um epic would usually usually pay um a licensing fee to them so like disney's like star wars does various things with them and you get characters props and the kind of music cues and then sometimes but what they can do then within the game is charge for those skins and so you know consumers will pay and so they will make money um you know anime things like my hero academia or whatever if you've got simpson skins for example there is money to be raised yes from that and that money is going somewhere if someone is promoting something so they that then they will usually pay epic so say um nike nike have marketed jordans via the game which is quite a simple one to explain but there's lots of different kinds of marketing and advertising and you then sometimes you have a revenue share model where like lots of people have done concerts like um ariana grande Travis Scott, Metallica, they've done these virtual concerts.

22:58The NFL have had some very, very successful kind of mutual partnership. And sometimes even other games publishers or games themselves, like Halo, will do a crossover. And again, that's a marketing thing. It's interesting that you said in your question, other games like Fortnite, it's really, there aren't really very many other games who do this, or certainly not to the scale. It's almost like Fortnite have eaten everybody's lunches because it's so massive and they went really early into this because at the start, when this started happening, people thought, oh, I don't want to degrade my IP by putting it, but they were able to persuade a number of people and then people saw how well it worked because it brings people in.

23:36So I think I mentioned that Metallica have done a concert. Okay, most Metallica fans might be middle-aged. I'm not categorizing all of them, but they might be middle-aged and they might not play Fortnite. If they say to you, Metallica are doing two virtual concerts, then Metallica don't do a lot. so you're hearing they're doing two virtual concerts in fortnight that's bringing those people into fortnight even if it's only temporarily they might get into it so it's it's the absolute prime game for any of these profit crossovers and there are certain ones that i remember in the summer we were talking about grow a garden and like someone like travis kelsey had done a sort of collaboration and there are collaborations on roblox but they're they are fewer although grow a garden has fallen away i don't know if i oh no has it it's weird well i told you that what was stealing up on the inside was stealer brain rot which it was stealer brain rot for absolutely miles and miles and that's been really yeah but he jandall the creator grow a garden slightly ruined that game do you remember i told you about the weimar inflation that happened in grow a garden so then it was stealer brain rot but i think stealer brain rot itself has now been surpassed by 99 nights in the forest which is currently the number one game on roblox and you've got to survive 99 nights in the forest which is of course and postocoglu's autobiography yes exactly and actually they've made it wonderful for children really involving so yes that's the answer to that but it's interesting fortnight is such a behemoth and no one else really does it to the same degree they they're kind of like you you would go there first with a lot of these collaborations whether you know it could be fast food it can be video games it can be anything there is it's a state it's a status trade-off essentially which is fortnight want to constantly be updating their game which they do all the time themselves all sorts of different mods all sorts of different ways to play it so for them you think oh we could have a simpsons version of this i mean that's they go yes we would like that that's a fun thing for us if you're the simpsons you go what go into fortnight yes i see the status of that so on that who's paying who absolutely wouldn't know because they're both getting a lot out of that because if you're fortnight simpsons is like such a great legacy brand that makes you feel good that you It gives you an extra bit of luster.

25:46Everyone's winning on that. As you say, if you're Nike and you've got a new product, you are going to have to pay. But if you look at the status of who is involved, like Travis Kelsey, when he's doing Grow a Garden, that would have been one of 50 things in a meeting with his manager. And he said, we've got this in Grow a Garden. And he'd go, God, no, of course I'm not going to do that. And then he'd say, let me just take you through the demographics of this. Let me take you through your demographics, which are here and very healthy. let me take you through the demographics of grow a garden which are very healthy but also very different to your demographics so this is like this is free money for you and with grow a garden they're going who can we have who could do it like travis kelsey oh he's never going to say yes and so again with that no one's having to pay anyone because everyone's making money so there's some things which are pure advertising so if it was for example a very specific simpsons movie thing then there might be money changing hands but if there's two um bits of media that have their own fandom and have quite a substantial fandom, then the joining together is very, very clearly understood these days that brands tend to multiply each other rather than divide each other.

26:49And so people are very, very happy to be in different fields and for everyone to, you know, the collaborations you see between the wildest companies these days, because they recognize that it works for everyone. Yes. But Fortnite is head shoulders and I think full torso so above all the others in terms of this. Now, a question for you, Richard, from Emma Withill, who says, having recently become slightly obsessed with the new musical production of Paddington, Paddington the Musical, I can't stop thinking about Paddington's costume and how all the elements come together to work so convincingly.

27:21Can you explain what goes into making Paddington move, speak and sing so expressively when there are so many components at work? Yes, particularly if you're doing a stage show, because there is no CGI or anything like that, so it's a real thing on the stage. So this is a, I think it's in previews at the moment at the Savoy Theatre. I'm very happy to answer this question because I'll answer anything which is McFly adjacent. And the songs in this have been written by Tom Fletcher from McFly. So it's got Paddington, it's got Tom Fletcher from McFly. What could possibly go wrong? So Tara Zafar is the person who designed Paddington Bear for the stage.

27:57She's been working on this since about 2019. She was the head of makeup at the 2012 Olympic ceremony and she made the PG Tips Monkey. so come on I mean has anyone had a better career than that that's incredible I would like to know well okay well done well done Tara carry on so Neil Scanlon approached her he was one of the chief creature makers on Star Wars and said look we've got to do Paddington it's going to be live how do we put this together so she's been working on it a long time she said the first thing we thought is we started thinking what we didn't want most importantly we didn't want him to be surrounded by loads of puppeteers yeah okay so not like you know like War Horse or something like that which is amazing but it's a different very different vibe We wanted audiences to see the little bear all by himself, vulnerable, in the middle of the stage.

28:37So what they've ended up with, there is an actor, Artie Shah, and she's four feet tall, Artie, she's in a bear costume, she's in a bear suit for the onstage bear presence. So while backstage, there's an actor, it's currently James Hamid, who's controlling the bear's facial expressions, provides the voice and controls the robotic, you know, how that all works remotely. So you've got someone who can do all of the movements actually in the suit, and you've got someone who can do the expressiveness and the acting who is backstage at the same time. So you've got Artie in the costume, you've got James doing the thing.

29:10The face. The face. Tara says that there is an awful lot more to it, which she won't give away because she does want it to be magical, and quite rightly, because what's more magical than going to see Paddington, the musical and seeing Paddington for real? And what she does say is that Artie, who's in this bear costume, She trained for it by sitting in a sauna fully clothed for a week. It's a very physical performance. She's super professional. The bear suit is quite hot. It's made out of sustainable wool, but that's still wool, right? Yeah. And she also assures us that no bears were harmed in any of this process.

29:46That's a training montage, isn't it? Just sitting in the sauna ready to just get... More and more clothes on. Yeah. Wow. Okay, that's incredible. I really need to see this. I want to go and see this. Well, it's gone. The question is being asked. I'll say this at the beginning. And thank you for the question. This bear has gone viral. You can see all sorts of clips of this bear. And it does look amazing. But how is it done? Yeah, so that's in previews at the moment. It's at the Savoy Theatre. But if you watch it, then hats off to Artie and to James. Gloves off to them both. I think that about winds us up for today.

30:21Yeah. We will, of course, be back tomorrow with a bonus episode. part two of the outrageous MTV story and if you want to sign up it's therestisentertainment.com ad free listening all that sort of thing don't forget we'd also love your Kate Phillips questions yes please send questions about anything to do with TV anything on the BBC for Kate Phillips and we will put them to her that's therestisentertainment at goalhanger.com and otherwise we will see you next Tuesday see you next Tuesday

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