How To Find The Secret Traitor: Episode One Reaction

0:02Hello and welcome to this special Traitors Reaction episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde and me richard osmond well here we go again well a red cloak we'll get to it i am at secret the new series has just begun for won't we say anything it was really interesting when we talked to kate phillips director of content at the bbc you remember she talked about those three g's all the generations those shows that everyone can watch together isn't moving this show to 8 p.m richard just an acknowledgement that it is a family show and that you know if you can get a couple of the swear words out then you can put it on at eight o 'clock and we already know that children are watching it with our parents and that it's a multi-generational obsession so this is just the confirmation of that right yeah i think it's fantastic because it's you know everyone's bedtimes after 9 p.m really you know whereas if it's nine till ten that's a that's that's a little bit much especially if you're doing two nights in a row and i know where you'll watch these things on catch up now but it's it's fun as a family to sit down and watch something the night it goes out And it's fun to go into school the next day and talk about it and go into the office the next day and talk about it like we always used to.

1:12We're just going to have to get right onto the absolute massive twist in the format, which is the idea that there is a secret traitor. I mean I'm really glad they've done that I know there will obviously be a backlash against this because first of all lots of people have just come into Traitors really recently via the gateway having not bought into it before have come in via the gateway drug of the celebrity version and then will be thrilled that so soon after that ended so triumphantly and was just this unbelievable rating smash this which was filmed before that went out so we they couldn't know quite how nuts it would go um has come on and they have changed it um obviously with any format as it ages um the players become sentient and almost i think that what's so significant is that everybody almost everybody sat in this current version sat in their claudia interview and said oh i want to be a traitor now in the old that was fascinating wasn't it but in the old verses everyone would go i want to be a faithful and you get uh the odd person with a glint in their eye and a sneaky grin saying, oh, I wouldn't mind being a traitor.

2:20Now, everyone, and as you say, they won't have seen Alan winning the celebrity traitors. They are all saying they've watched it. They absolutely understand what they're there for. They understand the rules. They understand the gameplay. They understand all the different strategies. And almost all of them are saying, I want to be a traitor. I want to be a traitor. They understand how strong the position is. But this is so radical what they've done because The Traitors has never been a whodunit show. It's a bit like Columbo. It's a like How Do You Catch Them show. And not telling the audience who the secret traitor is, is a huge call because they could have said, okay, we're going to let the audience know who the secret traitor is, but the traitors themselves won't know.

3:06Correct me if I'm wrong, Richard, but surely the Diane and Ross relationship in a previous series has been the only thing that has been hidden from audiences. So she was able to, Diane was able to have that kind of TV moment where she said, no, no, no, Paul's not my son, but Ross is. And that was one of those moments where you're like, oh my God, you know, now you've got three layers of unknowing, which you've got the audience don't know who the secret traitor is. The traitors don't know who the secret traitor is. And the faithful don't even know there is a secret traitor. So we're in a known unknowns and unknown unknowns, Donald Rumsfeld type situation immediately.

3:48Finally, finally, Donald Rumsfeld comes into the equation. Rumsfeld has entered the game. Yeah. The producers understand that the first few episodes of Traitors are meaningless. All right. And we all understand that as viewers as well. We bought into it. Okay. You know, I will say to the producers now, it's okay. We get it. We understand that we don't need to get rid of any traitors. We understand all of that. So they're giving you for the first three or four episodes, because it can't last very long, because the secret traitor can't nominate themselves. So we're going to work out very quickly who it is.

4:19So there will be a gameplay element where we discover who the secret traitor is within the first four or five episodes. But it just means for those first four or five, we're thinking, oh, I wonder who it is, in my opinion, Harriet. but that's long as i say it's radical we've never we've never had things we don't know the audience is allowed to feel with traitors and in a way as previously discussed that's what made it quite a hard sell that you know everything and in fact that's been that kind of inside out version of the format's actually been brilliant and people have loved it so the powers of the secret traitor are that they create a murder shortlist of three people um the only player who they are the only player who knows all the identities in the game and they're working for themselves and the traitors non the non-secret traitors need to isolate and banish this supposed person fairly swiftly i would have thought i my view is this there's less to it than me as the i that's my opinion i think it's fun i don't think it can last very long and so i don't know entirely know what it gives to the end of it other than you know it's it's it is a different thing for us to watch a traitors episode and to be questioning whether someone is a traitor or not so we've never had that before so it's quite a fun thing to have i think we would tire of it very very quickly because a lot of the fun of the traitors is hearing someone talking about being a faithful and we know that they're a traitor or hearing you know yeah we we cannot because we don't know who the secret traitor is we cannot believe anything anyone is telling us at any time so we can't see if someone is being accused of being a traitor for example we have a certain physical guttural reaction to that which is no no no they're not they're faithful they're a fact you can't and we can see them on their vt going i can't believe that they raised my name and it's i feel gutted they're raising my name for the first few episodes now we are not going to have that pleasure at all please can Can you put your producer's hat on and tell me why they didn't retain that thing where the audience is within the confines of editing tricks and various other things.

6:26The audience is not all seeing. Why do we not know who the secret traitor is? Therefore reducing the power of the non-secret traitors, which I agree needs doing at this stage in the life of the format. But why do you think they chose that to not tell the audience? I think A, because we haven't had that before. So as a viewer, we'd be given something new that we haven't had. I think it's something we'll tire off very quickly, but it's not to say that it's not unwelcome because we're all sitting wondering who that person is. And there will be in the next couple of episodes a clever use of that secret traitor.

7:05And that will sort of pay for itself. And I think they're aware that by the end of the series, we won't really remember there was ever a secret traitor. I could be wrong because there might be a situation where they're brought back. They might echo it later on. I think it's just something to - Or they're replaced. Or they're replaced. But you could see this series, we were bang straight into the castle. We were absolutely straight into the action in a way that we have not been in previous series. In previous series, we've been on that train for like, you know, 30 minutes. And we've queued up and the people on the ends have been thrown out or we've gone off a train.

7:39And, you know, those people have gone out. So there's been like a cold open, like a James Bond style cold open in previous series. And there wasn't that at all here. We were banged straight into the action, which I think is probably quite a good thing if you're a producer. So they have this thing, this bit of business. We'll have everybody talking. I absolutely could be wrong. I think it will have the law of diminishing returns. But I don't think it'll matter. Particularly, I think it's less exciting than it sounds. They did a short version of this, apparently, in the Norwegian version of it in season four.

8:13And it lasted one episode. And in the turret bit, which I think they call the conclave, that secret traitor stayed hooded and they ran the voice through a voice changer. But it was a one episode. It was a one and done thing. But I suspect we will see something very similar here. We're not going to keep the secret traitor and the traitors apart for the whole time. As I say, we're all going to work out who it is. Mathematically, we're going to work it out within five days, whatever happens. So the producers have five episodes, really, to have a bit of fun with it and do something interesting with it and use it to put the cat in among the pigeons.

8:50A lot of the stuff, so Blood on the Clock Tower, which is one of the big kind of werewolf mafia games now, is absolutely huge. and a lot of these social deduction games have so many different roles like a secret traitor like a detective like a village idiot so there's a million different versions of these games that people have been playing forever and ever and ever and the producers can dip into these games and use the ones that will work for them and they can do that over the next few series as well which is taking one individual and giving them a special power and this is their first attempt at doing this really apart from the seer which they tried in the previous series slightly backfired yes i agree because it rather ruined charlotte's brilliant gameplays have finished her funnily enough in the celebrity version there was a fan theory that i saw grew ridiculously popular which was that celia imry was claudia's a secret detective role and that she worked for claudia in some way purely off the back of the fact that a she kept saying i'm just going to go and do some detective work now and they thought that was enough um but also that there are as you say these roles in games and so people who kind of particularly plugged into those things think oh they're going to make they're going to cast a new type of um a new type of um operative within the format yes if you play uh blood on the clock tower and any of those you you'll be very aware of there's loads of things on youtube where you can watch extraordinary live action versions of this and they are immensely complicated immensely tactical way too tactical for and boring for tv but but to play absolutely extraordinary and if you're a game theorist extraordinary to watch as well and this is the traitors producers dipping their toes into this and thinking actually there is more fun we can have here but it has to be something that's immediately apparent to the viewer what it is my issue with it is i was talking to one of the producers because they're at the castle they spend their day at the castle they do the tasks they sit around the round table, but they're all constantly doing VTs to camera.

10:49They're being asked questions about who they are, what they're doing. Now, if you think it through, there's three traitors who are talking about being traitors when they're doing their VTs. There are normally 19 faithfuls talking about what it is like to be a faithful and what it's like to be in the castle. Now, one of those people is also a traitor and is having to lie in a VT, which is not something you've ever seen before. Yeah, their Aston is going to say faithful and they're not going to be faithful there is producer trickery because they cannot include they cannot talk to them normally and so if they're including something it has to be them saying them saying something about being a faithful i talked to one of the producers and they said look we absolutely talk to them normally talk to them about being the secret traitor all of that's all that footage will be there but we make sure we edit it in such a way we're still talking about the show we're talking about the day we're talking about gameplay so they're still present but no one at any point is lying or pretending to be something they're not but they're they are holding back those bits of information which for a couple of episodes I don't mind but again it's one of those things where you do think as soon as you start putting those extra you know social deduction game rules in there it's for a viewer it's it can get immensely complicated you have players who have watched all the international ones that are sort of available so you have to do something radical I am fascinated to see how long it plays out I feel like I've been a damp squib on it and I don't mean to be who do you think the secret traitor is if you had to put money on it now because everyone's probably got a name in their mind i feel like i'm being managed into thinking it's judy who's the mother of roxy who's that they're the kind of secret mother and daughter relationship in that or amanda who's the retired dci um because people sort of you know you feel like we want to but i don't know i i honestly i couldn't tell you right now um can i say i i think that's the issue is I feel like the producers are having to manage us.

12:43Yes, and I don't like that feeling because the whole point of the show is that you're all seeing. You're artfully editing this in a way that's leading me in a certain direction, which you've never, I mean, of course you are doing that as a producer all the time because you're making your narrative as compelling as possible, but not deliberately in that way, misleading somebody, deliberately throwing out red herrings. I think it's, I was delighted to see her in there, Harriet. So Harriet is the crime writer. and they've had people who are authors before but you know harriet is like like a million setting author she's like like a real deal big big crime author area and brilliant as well she wasn't in that first episode much i thought i don't think i saw a single vt and she's quite a compelling character she must have known for a while she was in this because her new novel is out the middle of february there was a book festival recently where a crime writer a celebrity crime writer who does not write their own books was going to be interviewed and they said to harriet would you interview this person and she said no of course i'm not going to interview that person they don't they don't write their own books and so everyone's like okay that's good we love uh we love harriet uh so i think she's a compelling presence she'd be a very good secret traitor instant folk hero uh but it's it's that's the first time i've ever seen on the non-celebrity one someone who i sort of know shall we go for a break and then talk about who the three traitors are please let's do so

14:11hello everyone this is an exciting one actually genuinely exciting to celebrate the launch of the new series of the traitors you know how much we love it we are giving you and a friend the chance to get a taste of the ultimate game of deception and tactics that is the live traitors if you sign up to our free newsletter by visiting the rest is entertainment.com you will be automatically entered into our competition to win two tickets to the traitors live experience in central London you'll be able to take your seat at the round table complete missions to build the prize pot and of course find and eliminate who you think are the traitors it's genuinely a really really amazing experience you'll love it if you win the tickets we'll also give you 500 pounds spending money towards transport and accommodation to enter our prize draw sign up to our free newsletter now by visiting the rest is entertainment.com that's the rest is entertainment.com entries close on the 30th of january terms and conditions apply don't they always and very very best of luck

15:11welcome back everybody now richard let us discuss the three traitors i would say two strong traitors and a liability that's my which is uh the perfect combination i think stephen and rachel seem perfectly capable of being strong solid let's get through to episode six or seven traitors and Hugo looks like he'll go to pieces. But I tell you, the last person who'd like they were going to go to pieces, Alan Carr. So who knows? What was your take? Hugo is that, yeah, he kept saying that Claudia had inserted a layer of middle management as he kept putting it. Which is true. He's a barrister. He's a barrister.

15:48Are you a Casey? Then in which case, Hugo, you are middle management. So I actually thought that Rachel had the potential to be quite brittle some that she was very prickly about certain things you know there is that need to have that sort of bravado i'll throw anyone under the bus if i there were there were a couple of contestants who sounded slightly like they'd wandered in and off the apprentice you know i'm brilliant at reading people there's no one like me at reading people all this sort of stuff there was sam who said i've always seen myself as a leader not a follower it doesn't really matter how you see yourself sam yeah that's the thing with leaders and followers you're now being seen yeah um yeah hold on why is no one following me i'm a i'm a leader this is guys why is it why is no one following me you want to say i'm a leader the sort of family relationships whether covert or over are interesting um yeah and i thought funnily enough i thought and you we may find there are others i always thought it might be quite fun if they had two people who were sort of amicably divorced or something like that you know just to sort of one you're not quite expecting i think we're often expecting a parent and child relationship um and in this case we've got roxy and judy there's that funny sort of ross and nettie issue they by chance they people as we always say that when there's absolutely nothing to go on people completely illogically will say well hang on they once met in london eight years ago something weird's going on here which yeah if i if i we know that one of them must be a traitor if if ever there's a pair the absolute instinct of everyone is well one of them must be a traitor so by the way netty doesn't know that and ross does know that the second that netty went up to him you can see ross just go oh great okay now now now i know that there's a well he's making it worse because of his behavior that's not like a man he's giving off the prickly vibes and like oh dear this is suspicious and therefore he's it's becoming a self it will become or we may well become a self-fulfilling prophecy what would you do with your shortlist the next night if you're the secret traitor if i was a secret traitor it depends what the secret trait has been told about what their role is and that's the problem is we don't know what the role of the secret traitor is we haven't been given enough information of course if i'm the secret traitor if i think my job is to stay in the game as long as possible then i keep putting the same names up every time because then we because if I put three new names up tomorrow we're ruling out more and more people who are who I am definitely not if they vote out Maz then tomorrow I'm putting James and Nettie up again and just choosing one yeah new person I would I would just keep doing that but if I'm being told look don't forget by episode four you are going to do this or you're going to be in the tower then they can have a bit of fun with it so I guess if it does look identical we'll know that secret traitor has been told to stay in for the long game other variable is if someone emerges as quite a strong leader amongst the faithful and has a good idea who one of the traitors is and bear in mind the secret traitor knows who all the three traitors are they just don't know who the secret traitor is then you there may be if i'm not saying this will happen but say james netty or maz emerged as someone who happened to have a great theory you'd think well hang on a second i'd rather keep them in uh in order that they can lead something that they can potentially lead a banishment at the round table of a traitor you can definitely use it to throw someone under the bus not often you'll be able to put all three names on a short list that would throw one of the traitors under the bus if that makes sense but it does genuinely depend on what they are planning with the secret traitor and currently we do not know what they are planning with the secret traitor so again it's quite hard to engage in any gameplay theory at the moment it's your theory as a producer that what they would do with the secret traitor is that they'll say let's see how this plays out we may have a moment where we bring them together or if it works brilliantly and it becomes compelling in a different way then we don't have to bring them together with the others because you know they may have a red cloak reveal in the turret or they may not do they give themselves the options that they can ride both horses until one of them becomes a better goer You always have both options and you can always change what you're going to do.

20:09But the one thing you can't do is get rid of the fact that there's something in that format that's going to tell you who the secret traitor is sooner or later because they can't put themselves on a shortlist. So they are aware it has a redundancy in there. So they would have planned for a short term version of it would be my guess. But again, as I said earlier, I trust them. Me too. They will be having a lot of fun because we've just seen it. So we're talking absolute first reaction to having seen it. They have had four months to talk through what a secret traitor might do and what would happen if X happens, what would happen if Y happens.

20:48So they've had months and months and months to think about a clever twist that we might not have worked out in the last 20 minutes. And furthermore, they have edited it and done all of that. We will again have the nonsense from people saying, well, why can't they just have two edits? One where you know how, who the traitors are, you know, one where you don't know who the traitors are and one where you do. It's like, yet again, just to cover that one off, it takes a very, very, very long time to edit a show like The Traitors for broadcast and doing two versions of it would take a very, very, very, very, very long time.

21:20But they're having their cake and eating it, which is, we know who the three traitors are, but also there's a secret guessing game. See how you like this. It is extraordinary how it reduces the power of the traitors just at such a stroke. Who had become so powerful? Here's my issue with it, is it doesn't particularly reduce their power at the moment because, you know, there's 19 people to choose from. I mean, who you're going to choose. It's sort of random at this stage. What it does is it reduces our enjoyment of their discussion about who might go. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Although they said, well, we wouldn't have chosen any of these.

21:57Yeah. But it reduces our understanding of who they are as people and what tactics they are going to use as people because we're not able to see what that is until the point they have full control. so the producers have definitely given up a whole series of very good things here and i am absolutely certain they've given it up because they have something even better which is to come if this is your first civilian traitors after watching the celebrity one and you're like oh it doesn't feel as good as the celebrity ones that's because you knew the celebrities straight away you will know these people very very very quickly and you will be absolutely as engaged with them as you are with the celebrities, I would say by episode three.

22:39I'm completely gripped already. I love it. I'm so thrilled it's back. A great brightening moment for January. In an otherwise dark world. And talking of brightening, I'm glad there's a Sussex Copper there and I'm from a family of Sussex Coppers. So I'm hashtag Team Amanda. But yeah, the viewer in me is absolutely delighted it's back. The producer in me is annoyed that I don't know full details of what they're going to do with this secret traitor. So I'm going to be spending the next week, all I'm going to be doing is thinking about that. And that slightly takes away my being in the moment of watching it because there'll be something and I want to work it out before it happens.

23:19Yes. Yeah. But in a way, I don't want to work it out before it happens. You know, I want it to be like an Agatha Christie. Well, it has become more of a whodunit show because of this device, which has never been before. It's always been a Columbo type. We know who did it. Let's see how they work it out. Thanks, everybody. Thank you so much, everybody. There's another episode of The Traitors tomorrow night. I'm sure we'll do other reaction podcasts as the series progresses. But tomorrow we do have for our members the first part of a two-part special about the KLF, which I think is one of the greatest stories in British music.

23:58Just two guys who shouldn't particularly have been in a band together, being in a band together and being so successful. they end up burning one million pounds. And it's just, it is so full of good stuff, that story. So it's a two-parter. First one tomorrow for our members. If you want to become a member, go to therestisentertainment.com. You can sign up there, add free listening, all of that. If you are not a member, then we will see you all next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday.

24:34Thank you.