How To Get Rich From Fan-Fiction

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1:01Hello and welcome to this episode of the Restless Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. Hello Marina. Still getting over our bonus episode from last night about celebrity traitors. If you haven't listened... We will not be speaking about celebrity traitors on this. Do not worry if you've not seen that first episode. As soon as you do then feel free to listen to that bonus episode but do not listen to it until you have, in the meantime, some lovely bestions. Do you remember we talked about last week, we talked about our own theme tune, the theme music of The Restless Entertainment.

1:32Oh yes, and who wrote it. And who wrote it, who was a composer called Tim Garland, who sometimes composes library music. Grammy-winning composer. Grammy-winning, he has written to us. No. He says, I wrote the theme, Living in Style, and I thought I'd drop you a line to prove what you said, that we composers don't know how our music's going to be used, and it's lovely to find out. So sorry, he has not heard the podcast. wow Tim I mean that is unbelievable well yeah it's not totally clear is it oh no oh I think that's totally clear he said it's lovely to find out got involved in any of our biggest arguments here so I'm guessing he's never heard before I mean Tim we played this at the Albert Hall it's been yeah he says it's been a joy to write in different musical styles and also crucial that as a composer one has a genuine love of them I wrote this theme after watching High Society I told you I could come down a big staircase to it and was moved again to recall the story of the big beautiful impact Louis Armstrong's band made in a world that was not afraid to show its prejudice.

2:30He says, talking of not knowing where my music was used, I recorded a rather tricky piece for bass clarinet, only to find out years later it had been used in a Scandinavian advert called I Can't Stop Farting. Amazing. Obviously I did what any self-respecting composer would do and tried to find it on Google, which resulted in getting a whole load of medical adverts in my feed for months afterwards. I still have never seen the advert. Any clues, anyone? Can anyone help Tim Garland, composer of our great theme music, to find out about this advert in a way that will stop him having flatulence-related products beamed into his feed for all eternity?

3:08Well, there's going to come a time where they'll welcome it. You know, so, I mean, you might age into it, Tim. How lovely, though. What a lovely sounding man. That's amazing. If you know that I can't stop fighting, but do please tell us. And thank you so much, Tim. Everyone not opening a private browsing window because you just don't want to invite it. Why are you on private? Honestly, you would not believe me. You know, let's just say I'm looking at porn because that's going to be easier than the actual explanation. Can I ask you a question? Please. This is about something that's been in the news.

3:41We've had a few questions on this. Richard Milnes asks, what is the deal with the Tilly Norwood AI actor? And could I get one of Marina's hot takes on if and how this changes actors' negotiation power? Tell us about Tilly Norwood. Tilly Norwood is an AI actress, actor, created by a company. We know that she exists because at a tech conference, a woman called Aline van der Velden announced... She's a Dutch comic, right? She says, oh, everybody is clamouring to represent her. I have agencies in Hollywood. Sure. Okay. Yeah, I'll come back to that. Clamoring to represent her. She's like a fake. She looks like a normal human being.

4:21She talks relatively like a normal human being. And she's been launched as, oh, this is the next big AI star. I think this lady said, I want her to be the new Scarlett Johansson. Don't doubt it for a second. I'm sure you do. That sounds like that would be really profitable. I want to open the batting for England, but it doesn't matter. You never know. Never give up on your dreams. Now, what does this actually mean? We were offered her, actually. We were offered Tilly Norwood as a Q &A subject for this podcast. Oh, you are kidding me. And I thought, what does that actually mean? It doesn't mean anything.

4:52We email her some questions. Do you know what? What a grift. What a grift from start to finish. Anyone in the world can do this. And just because you've got one and people are talking about it, it is so pathetic. I'll tell you what, we'll interview her if she comes down. Does she fancy it on a rainy Wednesday in Stoke? Can she do it on a Monday morning in the basement at Spotify in person? I don't think so. What's the name of this lady who's invented her again? Aline van der Velden. Aline. You can invent all the AI actors and actresses you want. You do it until the end of time. Why is anybody booking your AI actor?

5:30If there's going to be AI actors in the future, a studio will have their own AI actor because then they own it. An agent is not going to sign your AI actor Because an agent, if AI acting goes anywhere, will have their own AI actors, which are controlled by them. And they will use their talent to write for these people and do stuff for these people. This is 100 % a grift. The one good thing about it is it's brought out SAG-AFTRA and everyone just saying, no, come on, this is absolutely pathetic. It's great that the first version of this is quite so obviously a money grab and quite so sort of poorly done that everyone's able to go.

6:07oh yeah a lot of Hollywood agencies are interested in your AI actor I don't I genuinely don't think that the the none of the like CAA WME UTA the big ones you think they're going to annoy all their actual real life talent I mean somebody showed it to Emily showed Emily Blunt she said I haven't heard this story and they showed it to her during the interview and she was like oh my god agents don't do this it's like I'm gonna lose Emily Blunt so I can have Tilly Nord okay is Tilly know we're going to get her ass out on the red carpet like emily blunt is and take her next movie all the way around the world and promote it okay no they're not having having said all that there will be agencies who provide who essentially provide ai actors and actresses and they are already they're already out there and they they will be very very successful and they will make huge amounts of money the talent agencies will not do it on books in that way in any way because they will annoy their human talent.

7:00A lot of these jobs that used to go to actors, to human actors, have already been automated. There's lots of voice work you hear. Yes, lots of voice work. You know, around all the time in phone systems. In the old days, you would have actually got someone to do the voiceover of. It sounds ridiculous, but so much of this stuff has become automated. And there will be a point where there's all sorts of people who, you know, at a certain price point, this is already automated. It's not automated at the Emily Blunt price point. or anybody else. I'm only using her because she was shown the article and forced to react to it in real time.

7:32And again, that journalist thing saying Emily Blunt has spoken out. If she hasn't spoken out, you showed her something and she reacted. You shoved something in her face in the middle of interview. She's had to say it. Yeah, if you ever see an article saying someone has spoken out, just take a look. Did they actually speak out or were they shown something and did they say, oh yeah, this sounds like a terrible idea. I mean, this type of journalism could certainly be automated. Increasingly. I think it has been. I think real people ask these questions and soon they won't be. If Tilly Norwood is looking for a job, there are jobs in journalism for her.

7:58Oh, yeah. I'm sure she's perfectly good and whatever, and you don't, you know, have to... She's not nuts, and you don't have to drug her and all the other things that people say about human actors. You don't have to drug her. You know what? Probably better than Emma Watson. He's great, but you have to... Wow. What? Am I wrong? Wow. Yeah, that's unbelievable. You're so in your fans. I've seen the films. Anyway, it does show that media outlets will print any of these things if it's to do with AR. And I love to say that this is a fake person. But we're going to keep seeing this stuff. And many of the jobs have already gone over to AI.

8:30And people just don't like to think about it. None of those big jobs are going to go over to AI, of course, the big human actor jobs. But huge other parts of the supply chain are already going over to AI. The studios are already doing this. So she's a sort of harbinger of one type of thing, but she's not a realistic threat on her own. No, what she is on her own is someone trying to take advantage of knowing they're going to get free publicity, which they have. And we're talking about it as well. But that's why I'm talking about it quite so bluntly, because I want to say, yes, we are talking about it.

9:02But it is a grift. This isn't, you know, a studio could absolutely one day have an AI Robert De Niro. Right. That is worth some money to them. And Robert De Niro can make some money out of that. And there would be three people writing it. You know, that is a possibility. This sort of nonsense, though, that you're going to build this huge star is, there will be an accidental AI star one day for sure. But just going, oh my God, guys, I've had the best idea. I'm going to launch an AI actor. You think, you know what? Stop being so 10 years ago. I mean, it's such, it's so boring. And yes, hopefully we hear nothing more about her.

9:39She's got a very English name. Yeah. Tilly Norwood. I mean, genuinely, Tilly Norwood sounds like someone who would open the batting for England. Do you think? Yeah. No, I don't think so any longer. I think there's been a changing of the guard in people who'd opened the Batting for England, and I'm pleased to say so. Well, this feels like a different podcast all of a sudden. Yeah, anyway, we're not doing that. We have a question from Donna Karen, who has taken the time to say, no, not that one. Wow. Well, she doesn't know which one we're thinking of. But there are two other Donna Karens, aren't there?

10:05No, but I wasn't thinking of the fashion designer Donna Karen. When I heard the name, I was thinking of our listener, Donna Karen. So in which case, this is the fashion designer. Right. Because I'm thinking of the listener. Right. She spells her name differently. Let's just move on to her question. Wow. Is sound on nature documentaries real? If so, how do they get microphones there? And how does this work underwater? That's a good question. Yeah, I love this so much. This is a question. This, it won't show you to know, is not my area. But I know a man whose area it is. So I asked the wonderful Steve Backshall.

10:39The last time I saw Steve Beckshaw, he was in the House of Games studio and a pigeon got in. And he showed us how to catch and safely take a pigeon out of a studio. By the way, that's a huge thing. That's so helpful. We had one up in the rafters in the front. It was an absolute nightmare. Oh, really? Yeah, you just couldn't get it out. They're so high and you just can't get it out. Yeah, you need Beckshaw. What did he... How did he... Sorry, this is a sidebar. How did he... Marina's written in saying how to get a pigeon out of the studio. What is Marina? Yeah, Marina Hyde. no not that one in a humane in a humane way how do you get a pigeon out of a studio yeah and so there was a pigeon there and he's flying up and then he's on the floor and someone had the bright idea of saying steve is there any way he goes yeah i can get rid of a pigeon we're going oh my god this is going to be amazing he's going to do something like with his throat or something it's going to be and he literally just walked up behind it really really really slowly and then just grabbed it with both hands and then took it to the scene dock and out it flew so it was I mean, it was impressive because I've never seen anyone catch a pigeon before, but it wasn't like, oh my God, it's not like a hack.

11:43I see. I was thinking it was in the rafters because that is... It was for a bit because it was a bird, so it was fairly mobile. It was able to, yeah. Thanks for explaining birds to me. Yeah. I mean, if it had been in the rafters, that would be... To be fair to Steve Batchel, he could have done both. He would have been swinging up there. Anyway... Can we get on to the answer, please? So Donna, I asked Steve about the sound on NatureDocs, and this is what he said hi richard and marina it's steve bashaw here thank you so much for your question i am a avid listener to your podcast so um this is a really big topic actually in natural history filmmaking there's been a couple of really big documentaries in recent years that have focused just on sound but it hasn't always been that way you know conventional what we would call blue chip natural history filmmaking you'd have a lone sometimes lonely camera operator who could be in a hide for months on end and they'll classically have like a thousand mil massive lens filming wildlife from a distance could be a kilometer away so just impossible to record sound and some of them wouldn't even bother taking a microphone at all and then the sound would be put in later so that would either come from library or it could be what's called foley sound which is where sounds are essentially faked up in a studio i've been to one of those foley studios and it's absolutely bonkers.

13:01So they'd be recreating the crunching footsteps of an arctic fox walking through snow or of a moose sneezing. And essentially it's just some bloke in a dark room with a tray of gravel and the cardboard from an empty toilet roll. That though isn't done anymore. So now we might use a parabolic mic. That's essentially like a satellite dish around a gun mic. And they're super, super directional so you point them at a distant animal and you can hear them and what they're doing the downside is they are so sensitive they pick up everything so i was trying to use a parabolic to record the wheeze honk of a hippo one of the sounds of africa it kind of goes like that and essentially all we got was two hours of wet soggy hippo flatulence completely unusable not surprisingly because it is it is so so sensitive um so close-up stuff then you might put radio mics out close to things so we put them inside dead carcasses to hear the cacophony of sound as vultures and hyenas scrabble over the spoils seriously it would put you off your tea and then there are um legendary soundies like chris watson gary moore mark roberts who've made it their life's work to pick up wild sounds for real and they might use tiny microphones in situ so for example putting them underneath the leaf that a column of leaf cuter ants is about to walk over and the leaf almost gets turned into a tiny drum so you can hear their their miniature footsteps mics can be pitched up um high or low so you can get the infrasound bellows of mating alligators or the ultrasound squeaks of bats on the wing and some of this has led to new discoveries in nature, especially underwater, where we started realizing that, for example, the fish are talking to each other and sometimes to you.

14:54So one of my favorite bits in recent years in my job, I was doing a piece of camera underwater about clownfish, the famous Nemo fish, and one of them swam out of its anemone home right up to my mask and gave me a right telling off. It was a kind of a, which was, you know, essentially go away and leave my home alone. And because we had this new bit of tech we recorded the whole thing this conversation between a naturalist and a fish all possible with a little bit of snazzy filming kit oh my god i mean that raises the bar for every other contributor ever doesn't it steve steve i love you it's a nothing i literally already loved you but i love you even more now steve bachelor being told off by a clam fish okay i'm done i'm done honestly i thought ben shepherd was great last week telling us about the tipping point machine.

15:44But that is, I mean... Very different answers. That is bar raising. Wow. That was absolutely fascinating. Oh, my God, I need to go home and watch a document. I need to actually find the clownfish footage immediately. Yeah, clownfish talking to Steve. Yeah, not talking to. Give him a dressing down. Give him a dressing down. Donna, thank you for your question. Who knew that it would elicit such a terrific answer? He also does an amazing podcast, Steve. He's got a nature podcast called That's Just Wild, which I would strongly recommend. Steve if any of your listeners have a question that Marina and I could help with we'd be very very happy to you know something I'm pretty good on on the big cats um you're not bad on arachnids so yeah anything anything they need to know you just ask us we owe you one thanks so much Steve right shall we go to an advert yes shall we

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17:49Welcome back, everybody. Marina, Marcus Dale has a question for you. Marcus says, after watching the Ryder Cup, I need you both to lift the velvet curtain on how golf is broadcast on TV. how do they time all the pairings all teeing off at the same time how do the camera operators follow such a tiny white ball is watching in real life worse than on screen ah okay this is very good i've got a lot on this okay let's deal with the ball first it is very small but they've got high speed cameras that can do the equivalent of several hundred several thousand frames per second sometimes because when the ball's coming off the tee it can be going over 100 miles an hour they also have these telephoto lenses that have image stabilization and they now have this tracking technology which you know like shot link or track man or whatever it is um and which has sort of radar and optical sensors so that when you watch the trajectory it's kind of you'll see it overlaid over the picture anyway your understanding of the game is so much better when you're watching it at home on tv for sure but obviously when you're there you you get the atmosphere even if that atmosphere is you know some people throwing some drinks in someone's hair and just i mean obviously that was amazingly un-golfy i have to say golf is a fun thing to go and see for a couple of days the rider cup did not look like a fun thing to go and see that i mean definitely rather watch on tv yeah yeah it just obviously that the whole lot of that was just a poor league but if you are going to a golf tournament uh or and then i think if you're a spectator you have to say okay we are going to do three things all day and so you say okay well we'll see everyone sort of tee off on the first or the second which is so you've kind of got that and then you'll say let's find a good spot somewhere near the middle towards middle to end ish so maybe i don't know ninth or tenth or whatever it's good if you get a par three because then you can see it all and it's quite sometimes you can be sitting on a bank and you can just sit by a green of a par three for like a couple of hours and just see everyone yeah but it's you know what's happening good because you can see then you get to see everything yeah um i mean i can't but i know i know what you mean but you know what i mean okay and then at the right moment you want to make a break for the 17th or 18th the 17th at this ride the rider cup we just had was great because it was a par three obviously so much happened on the 18th this last one i'm i've heard from people who covered it it was an absolute nightmare because there were so many people inside the ropes like all the entourages all the vice captains it was much more than they've ever had to deal with so I think that was very very difficult um in terms of covering it and you know you you are between ropes and being sort of herded around quite a lot and so in terms of the directing of it you've got the people who come come out and do it and my husband actually one of his first jobs when he left university was working for transit world sport and you know he was in the buggy with a cameraman and a sound guy oh that's fun but there is someone who fully understands and can anticipate things about the whole golf tournament because they're watching it on the TVs.

20:44So you're getting it in your headphones, right, you know, go up to the 12th because Faldo's imploding or whatever it is. That's a good reference. Well, that was the era of when it was. Someone watching TV is understanding it best. The only difference with all of this is, of course, at the Masters, which I particularly hate Augusta National Club because, okay, why you're not allowed to see, remember, you're not allowed to see the score on the screen when you're watching the Masters. Watch any golf tournament and then watch the Masters. And you'll be like, sorry, what's going on? What's the score?

21:15Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm not allowed to see it because the footage is controlled by Augusta National Club. For what reason? For me, two reasons. Power, because they can. They can. And two, they just probably just hate the fans. Probably hate the fans in some really kind of inchoate way. But you're not allowed to see the score at the Masters for most of the time. Every now and then they'll flash it out like it's a present to you. Oh, I'm so sorry. Thank you so much for letting me in my hovel at home watch this. The whole of that tournament is a sort of real power game and whatever, and I find it absolutely ridiculous.

21:47That is a tournament where perhaps it's better to be on side. I think 100%. My friend once rang me and said, oh my God, I'm in the clubhouse right now. There are literally only two black people here, me and Condoleezza Rice. Yeah, it's a thing. Can I say atmosphere, Richard? Atmosphere. There's a lot of atmosphere or gust. It always has been. it's a you know a bucket list thing but it's it has a very rarefied atmosphere but a day out of the golf is it's nice but funnily enough the rider cup is slightly easier as a director than most other golf tournaments because there are you know on the first two days that you know there's four pairs playing at any given time usually someone's on the tee someone's on the green someone's spotting all of those things if you watch any of the big majors or anything there are you know you've got first couple days you've got 100 people playing and you know the last couple days fewer and which is why you often you're watching something and you hear a cheer from somewhere else on the course and then you then you cut to that to someone doing a party go well I think I know what happens here because I just heard a massive chair but essentially you can't cover everything all the time in that sport because there there are three or four things happening that are important at all time but that's why I like watching golf because you know that's what happens but right with Ryder Cup is slightly easier but on that last day when you had those 12 games going what 11 games going off at the same time that's that's what makes it such an exciting sport is because there is always because all 11 of those games are incredibly important and almost at all times someone has got a putt to win or tie the whole i mean the directing of it is brilliant it is so anticipatory and it's constant having to make a really quite important decision of where you're going to be and so absolutely full the coverage was great there was one part where you're just like oh my god who is that inside the ropes that's not just like right in front of the camera like great i've missed the part now okay fine and you've got that amazing iconic thing in the rider cup as well of uh red for america blue for europe so you can you can literally just look at the bottom of the screen and see instantly what the state of play is and that's a that's a great thing to have so i think hats off to everyone who put together the rider cup in what i imagine were trying circumstances richard a question for you from Golda.

23:55From Vera Wang. Not that one. From Golda. Golda asks fan fiction is in no way a new phenomenon so would Richard receive any cash from a published Thursday Murder Club fan fiction? It's an interesting time to ask that question because funnily enough there's a book came out last week which was massive, sold 50 ,000 copies in its first week which is called Alchemised and it's essentially it started off as Alchemised, written by someone called Sen Lin Yu, not actually their name it's a pen name anyway this starts off as alchemize was harry potter fan fiction yeah it was it was it was a sort of draco hermione fan fiction draymione and then it weaved in the original uh book i think was called manacled and it was draco and hermione we've done lots of handmaid's tale stuff as well and went huge online people went absolutely crazy for it i've not read it but i assume it's very well written because there's a lot of stuff out there and for this to have risen to the top i'm guessing it's good but huge around the world it's come out as i say as as alchemized so the interesting thing for golder's question is it was enormously popular this thing but it absolutely was based on draco hermione based on margaret atwood's the handmaid's tale and in order for it to be published every single one of those references had to be taken out so the whole thing had to be rewritten and those kind of universes had to be expunged and new universes and slightly new law had to be put in in its place but it doesn't seem to have affected the popularity of the thing so from manacled to alchemized got a seven-figure movie deal instantly straight straight out of the um pocket there's sold 50 000 hardbacks in in the uk last week it's done very done very well in the states as well so it's it's an enormously profitable thing to do but yes legally you're not able to publish that traditionally in the jk rowling universe or in the margaret atwood universe you have to do a different version of it so this author absolutely gained popularity through writing fan fiction but then has as rewritten it in in order to monetize that in a different way and the same thing happened with el james so yeah 50 shades of gray which was enormous And that was Twilight fan fiction, really.

26:14That's what it started as. But you wouldn't necessarily know that from the final version, from the Fifty Shades. It becomes something different because you do have to hide your workings. So I think most authors are comfortable with there being fan fiction. I mean, there's always been things that are based on stuff, you know, like Bible stories or the million kind of Greek myths that are retold. But this really is someone's IP. You know, it's really someone who's created these characters. and it's great that people love them and want to do something with them but when it gets to the point that someone is suddenly going to get a two million pound movie deal out of it if you were jk rolling you might go um i wonder if maybe some of that might be because those are my characters so you have to rewrite it but this seems to work for everyone to do that so in terms of if there were thursday murder club fan fiction it's you're very comfortable with people exploring that world that's nice it's something you want and you know having having their own versions of it in their mind the second someone's making money from it i guess there's copyright issues i mean not as big copyright issues as um all the massive tech companies scraping every single book and putting it into their large language models which is genuine theft at least this is people who like what you're doing and want to add is there a slash fiction version where i get together with bogdan I mean, has someone written that?

27:38I'm just saying if someone wrote that, I would read it. Yes, if someone has written that. Then I would read it. I was reading that from a herenamide. So, yeah, it's lovely that stuff does inspire people. And it's an incredible way for young writers, just, you know, the thing about writing, as you know, there's only two rules, which is read lots and write lots. That's all you can do. And if you are doing fan fiction, you're doing both of those things. because you're reading something you love you're taking it in and then you're writing a lot and by the time you've done five years worth of fan fiction if you are a good writer remove your stabilizers yeah then your writing has become good and you can see instantly that people like it and that's the time where you go oh okay i trust myself to do my version of this and then i'll let other people do fan fiction of it's like copying drawings by artists or paintings of artists you love it's a fantastic way to learn lots of things yeah and then you do you start going I don't but what do I actually think what is it that I would do and you but by that time you've learned all these building blocks you've learned all these skills so I think fan fiction is a wonderful thing and the amount of people who've come from absolute obscurity to making an awful lot of money via the route fan fiction self-public fiction all of these things it just it's there's more and more and more and more and the story of publishing now is that that's the route through that's where that's where people are coming from but yeah so alchemize um out last week been absolutely huge it is fan fiction hasn't yet sold as many as 50 shades of grey but almost nothing ever in the history of publishing has but they both come from the same place and that feels like a really positive thing as you know this week we're doing something a little bit different which our bonus our bonus episode came last night it came right after the first episode of traitors so it's come slightly in a different order this week but if you haven't listened to it It's free.

29:28Yeah, and it's free. It is. So dive in, but only once you've watched episode one of Traitors. Please, please do not listen until you have. Unless you're not going to watch Traitors, you just want to hear people talk about a show you haven't and are not going to watch. You must do what you wish. But yeah, it was a lot of fun to record. So I hope you enjoyed it. But for everyone else, we will see you next Tuesday. See you next Tuesday.

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