How to make a billion in showbiz

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1:25Hello and welcome to another edition of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osman. Good morning Marina. Hello, how are you? Yeah, I'm not bad. How are you? Very well, thank you. I never know whether to say good morning because sometimes people are listening to it in the afternoon or the evening. So good day to thee. Good time of day to you. Good time of day. We have a lot to talk about. We do have a lot to talk about. We're going to talk about a very interesting story that people might not know quite so much about. Francis Ford Coppola self-financing his own new film to the tune of$150 million.

1:56We're going to talk about that. Kevin Costner also part self-financing his own new film to the tune of many millions of dollars, which we will also link in together. And talking of millions of dollars, the Sunday Times Rich List came out. We're going to try and give you the formula for becoming a billionaire in entertainment. Spoiler, it's quite difficult. Yeah, it's quite hard. And we're also going to talk, have I got news for you, is going to America. They're going to make an American version of Have I Got News for You to tie in with the forthcoming presidential election slash apocalypse. And we will talk about that too.

2:28Shall we start with Francis Ford Coppola? And Kevin Costner, because it's the Cannes Film Festival. Explain the Cannes Film Festival to me, because you read about it, it feels like the Met Gala for film. Yes, I suppose it's the one that everyone's heard of. It happens every year, and if you've made a film, you decide whether you're going to premiere it, if it's quite a big film at one of the film festivals. And then it's in competition. Sometimes they don't always have to be in competition, but the films that we're talking about today are in competition and they're in competition for various prizes, but The Palm Door is the most sort of famous one.

3:02There are also many, many people from the industry trying to get distribution, trying to get funding for their films. It's a sort of a bit of a jamboree, a bit of a bum fight, a bit of a, you know, bake-off for people trying to get access to finance. A bake-off for people trying to get access to finance? That's Dragon's Den. Yeah, well, I mean, it's a little bit like that, but more glamorous. Everyone's in floor length. Coppola's new movie, Megalopolis, subtitled A Fable. He's 85. It cost$120 million, entirely self-funded, which is sort of extraordinary. 40 years in the conception and the battle to get it made.

3:36And very briefly, I'll summarise the plot. I have not seen this because it's just premiered, but it's an architect trying to rebuild New Rome, a sort of New York analogue, very recognisable New York analogue, while corrupt politicians get in his way. And that's Adam Driver. And it's sort of what it's like to be an artist at the end of Empire. Horizon, an American saga, is the Costner movie. Now, this is not one but two movies. This is coming out this summer. He also has three and four planned. So they're going to release the two parts of Horizon, an American saga. I mean, this is genuinely mad.

4:08And he's self-funded this as well. He's partially self-funded it. He says his accountant's furious. Imagine he wasn't thrilled about the recent divorce either. although she didn't get quite what she was going for. Anyway, I think he's mortgaged some of his land. He won't go hungry. But he's contributed between 30 and 50 million, they think. Again, he has tried to get this going for 30 years. It's going to cross the Civil War. But at the moment, it's a story about the expansion of the American West. And this bit is pretty simple. It's about time Hollywood did a movie about the Wild West. Yeah. My son Kevin Costner did one.

4:40The two that have been made of those cost 100 million each. Sorry, again, the figures are important. We don't like to filter all entertainment through this, but they are really important in this particular case because these are very, very expensive films. I almost want to say last of the big swings. Kevin Costner has left Yellowstone, the most successful show on American television, and he left it to basically do this because he couldn't fit this in with it. Both of them are sort of passion slash fantasy projects. That's a very thin line, isn't it, between a passion project and a fantasy project.

5:07Yeah, and you know, if we've been here before, Kevin Costner, when he directed Dancers with Wolves, people are like, what, it's basically, there's hardly any talking. You know, he was a huge movie star at the time and his movies made many, many times what they cost to make. And he went and did this thing, which ended up winning him Best Director and Best Picture over Goodfellas. Well done to the Academy. You have cocked it up again. And Martin Scorsese, but anyway. But are they going to be ginormous flops, I suppose is the first question. Because Kevin Costner has been in ginormous flops before.

5:41Waterworld is the famous and people used to call that Kevin's Gate which is a play on Heaven's Gate which was the Michael Cimino movie that sort of collapsed we're going to link them all in the biggest flop of all time the most famous flop of all time and it sort of collapsed it collapsed not just a studio a really old prestigious studio United Artists but it collapsed the genre of westerns for a long time and it collapsed really what was called the new Hollywood which were all the filmmakers like Scorsese, Coppola, Brian De Palma all these people like this and they were given suddenly free reign.

6:13And the 70s is this extraordinary creative time. And you can read about it in that great book, Easy Riders, Raging Bulls by Peter Biscount. But at the end, this has become so bloated. These productions become so enormous. And Heaven's Gate is an enormous flop. And I think his director's cut was something like four and a half hours. I mean, absolutely crackers. Heaven's Gate is always the byword for that. It's a trope name, as you might say. And people used to say that about Waterworld because Kevin Costner has been in big flops before. But actually Waterworld is a weird one. It was sort of marketed in the end as a flop because you could do that when that movie came out.

6:47You could say, oh my God, go and see this. And people would go and see theatrical releases that they might think would be a flop just to have a look. You cannot do that anymore. Because in the old days, people, you would go to the cinema once a month and go, what are we watching? Oh, it'd be a lot of fun to go and see Waterworld. Whereas now you have to have a particular reason to go to the cinema. And it's quite rare for people to get excited enough to go and see a film. Completely. And you've got to get them to come out. And even though he's been on the most popular show in American television, it's very hard to get people to still come out.

7:17Also, the other thing was with Waterworld. Back then, you could make your profits back on video sales. This does not exist anymore. But there's something about these kind of older, and in Coppola's case, he's 85, he's really quite old, these last big creative swings. People have been saying, we need artists to do this and to take these massive swings in the name of art. and I mean the Coppola movie does sound quite extraordinary there was a moment where a person came onto the stage at Cannes and addressed the man in the movie oh yes I saw that but like a real life actor comes onto the stage that was one of apparently the least nuts things to happen I mean it is genuinely extraordinary there was some boos, there was some cheers very Eurovision it is very but somewhat more expensive in terms of the staging and I don't know Coppola has obviously been a huge critic of things like superhero movies and franchise movie making maybe in general.

8:09And I do think those things have sort of killed cinema and they've almost been like over-performing hedge funds for so long that they squeezed out everything else and now there's nothing to put there in their place. Here's the fascinating thing, I think. So someone like Francis Ford Coppola, one of the most iconic directors of all time, Godfather, that was his big one. And two and three sequels. Yeah, Apocalypse Now. So, you know, he's a genius. Yeah. And he finds himself in a place in Hollywood. If you're a genius, by the way, and all of those people, the Spielbergs and the Coppola's who grew up in that system in the 70s, they are used to, there's a muscle memory of every time they have an idea, someone funds it.

8:48And they go and make it, and it's a masterpiece, and occasionally they have a flop, but then sometimes you'll have a huge hit. So he gets to a stage, he's 85 now, but he's been working on this film for a really long time. I mean, at least sort of 20 years he's been sort of putting stuff together. there so he'd got to the stage where he would have an idea he would go into a studio and say so i've got this idea it's set in new rome which is like new york and it's the end of days and it's you know the end of the republic of america and they would go not for us francis and he's like sorry they go no just it's not i just don't think because we're doing iron man seven so it's just i don't think it's going to work for us so most directors then at that point just go i'm going to retire and play golf and be bitter and he just went you know what i'm just i'm going to do this myself.

9:30I'm going to do it myself. I made so much money over the years and he sold his vineyards. Most people would retire to their vineyard. He sold his vineyard and used it to make the film. By the way, if you want to know where the money is in Hollywood, he didn't even sell all his vineyards and he made about half a billion dollars selling his vineyards. He's got an incredibly successful vineyard, which I have actually been to. Yes, he hasn't just got a couple of acres and some cherry trees. He's got a proper business. I'm joking, Sting. If you've got a bigger vineyard than that, I don't want to denigrate your Tuscan estate.

9:59I don't wish to denigrate your Tuscan estate is the first line of such a great lost poem so he puts in 120, 150 million dollars as his own money and it means he makes whatever film that he wants and it's fascinating seeing the reactions to this film because the reviews are all in and I was just some of them like the Times called it a head-wrecking abomination folly of gargantuan proportions, there's another review numbing excess but then a lot of filmmakers are saying that it's sort of a work of the imagination unlike anything we've ever seen before yeah essentially what you're doing you're seeing a filmmaker's vision without any studio so when people always say oh god studios are awful i mean they're the worst and their notes are terrible and they make everything bad hopefully we're all going to get the chance to watch this film this is what happens if there are no notes and i think several things about it i think it's a shame that francis ford coppola can't be funded to do a movie of course that's a shame and we understand the reasons why i think it's brilliant that he's done it anyway and he has said do you know what i sort of don't care there's things i want to do before i die and this is one of them i want to live in a world of goldmantuan follies i just no one else and so few people can afford to do them yeah and if he's just decided it's his money you can't take it with you can you richard but exactly that and you know there's a few very few people now can fund movies we know that and the streamers can fund movies but francis for coppola goes well look i can fund a movie so i'm going to i'm going to fund this my own movie and the fact that everyone has gone to see it got a seven minute standing ovation as you say which is and some booze yeah but i definitely want to see it so do i you know it looks amazing and he's also said i thought about this idea of the fall of empire and the fall of america because and it's all based on the fall of rome and he says and actually now it's being released he says i really see it in our culture i see culturally we might be at the end of the american empire there are things happening now that that happened in rome so he's doing it for a reason uh his wife passed away in april very very recently and the film is dedicated to her he said the most beautiful word uh in the world is esperanza which means hope god bless the guy you know people like steven soderbergh the great filmmaker just said look i mean it's a work of incredible creative imagination hollywood owes this guy absolutely culture owes him and entertainment owes him and he's put his money out there and it's listen who knows who knows what this film will eventually be like when we see it but wouldn't it be lovely if we all go and see it it would be i mean i don't think people i don't think that will happen but it doesn't it doesn't really it doesn't sort of matter but but the trouble is is that whilst i love that he's taken this enormous swing and i think it's brilliant and cool and sort of hilarious and follies are brilliant uh it's not scalable nobody else has got so you are still left with this problem where franchise movie making has sort of hollowed out lots of hollywood and lots of cinema and they haven't worked out how to creatively fill that and to revive things.

12:56See, that's the thing. So I absolutely get the USP of Coppola. I get the mindset, why it's made. I get the whole thing. The Costner thing is harder, him thinking, I'll tell you what, people would like me in a Western. Well, they have liked him in a Western before. Yeah, but if you're going to spend 40 million, it just feels a weird thing for him to go, this is the hill I'm going to die on. Well, he loves Westerns. Think of Darkest World. he made that other which is actually better probably that one called Open Range in 2003 you know and that had sort of Robert Duvall in it and you know I'm not quite sure I'm feeling the same about Sienna Miller I mean you're not going out there for the stars you're going for Kevin Costner maybe and and do you think this is something that will happen more in the future people funding their own movies because if you're Tom Cruise you can fund your own movie Spielberg could fund his own movie I know neither of those have particular problems getting movies funded but given it is now almost impossible to get a movie funded i mean it's so mind-numbingly difficult if you are someone who's sitting on you know two three four hundred million all these people with their you know tequila companies you know nothing stopping you know george clooney selling his cider press and uh and funding his own movie yes and when core jefferson picked up his uh oscar for the screenplay for american fiction he said instead of 200 million dollar movies please can we have some like 10 20 million dollar movies or even 20,$10 million movies.

14:15It's doable. And then Bradley Walsh could fund those. Yes. Yeah. That's not a bad idea. Like a new United artist. Yes, of a type. And there are ways of doing it, but there has to be the recalibration. We were talking about this last week in terms of things like star salaries and what type of work you eventually want to be involved in. If you want to keep doing big franchise movies in which I can't think it's particularly rewarding as an actor to do lots of those characters, or you want to work in interesting things, there's going to have to be a real calibration of what you accept or you do one for them and one for me.

14:48Oh, we have another exclusive. Joyce in the Thursday Motor Club has just been cast. Because we've already got Pierce Brosnan and Sir Ben Kingsley and the one for Helen Mirren. And Joyce is Celia Imri, which I'm very excited about. That's terrific. Because she's so mischievous. That's really terrific. Yes, I was talking with Stephen Frears about this the other day and he was like, why doesn't he get Celia Imri? Well, I'm happy to turn back and say, He has got Seguiru Murray. And she is funding a lot of the movie as well. She's putting$35 million. Oh, she's so terrific. Yeah. Okay, that's great.

15:20So that's a bit of fun, isn't it? Yes, that's wonderful. But that's fully funded. We don't have to worry about that movie. That is all set up. Should we have some adverts? Let's, please. Which this week are self-funded by you and I. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling. And when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs.

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16:47Welcome back. And we are going to talk about Have I Got News For You, which is going to CNN. They're going to make an American version of it to sort of tie in with the presidential election, which is unusual because CNN is a news network, but they're going to put it in a double bill with Bill Maher's actual HBO show, which they're going to repeat on Saturday nights and make a sort of comedy hour looking at the news, which is a departure. And it's an interesting one because historically and famously, and we'll talk about the reasons why, British panel shows, which are huge in the UK, it's one of our biggest things, the stuff we love, do not work in America.

17:24They absolutely do not work in America in the same way that America has all those late night TV chat shows and that doesn't work over here. They try panel shows every now and again. They always fail. We try late night daily chat shows and they always fail as well. So have I got news for you? Hopefully this time it might work. It's the fourth time they've tried it in the US. They've done three pilots for the show. They did a pilot way back in 2004 for Bravo. They did one in 2009. I was talking to Jimmy Mulville, who runs Patrick and is the great genius behind all of their shows. And in 2009, they did it for NBC and Jeff Zucker, who was the head of NBC now and now is head of everything.

18:03Jimmy said, we made this pilot. He said it was genuinely, it was a good one. and you can tell when a producer he's saying this is a good one and he said we've talked before about Americans and their over excitement forgive the language but Jimmy said Jeff Zucker's just standing next to me and goes that was fucking awesome so Jimmy's like great well listen we're moving out here for the next 18 months let's make this thing he then said that was when Conan O 'Brien was just taken over from Jay Leno and there was lots of hoo-ha and it went badly Jimmy said the words fucking awesome were the last two words Jeff Zucker ever said to me He said they did not get back in touch.

18:39They didn't kind of say, do you know what, because of this Conan stuff, you know, we're rethinking. They didn't kind of go, yeah, listen, maybe we'll try another time. He said there was not a single word said from that moment onwards. So that's... Ghosted. Iteration. A long list. Ghosted by Zucker, exactly. Now, panel shows over here, the two sort of big behemoths of panel shows, have I got these for you and would I like to? Those are the two that are going to run, like on the Mount Rushmore of panel shows. and America has not fallen in love with either. We've done these three pilots for Have I Got News.

19:12Would I Lie to You had a whole series out in the US as well and Americans have not fallen in love with them. They love the British versions when they watch them on YouTube. Said before, you go to the States and they just adore Would I Lie to You. But Would I Lie to You, Have I Got News, Taskmaster, America is not interested. And I've talked to a few of the producers, talked to Richard Wilson, who's Have I Got News for You. exec producer and he's the person that keeps that show a hit for so long and i talked to peter holmes who runs um would i lie to you and it's interesting because no one really has the answer one thing they both brought up was that have i got news for you and would i lie to you both have a lot to do with class and how obsessed we are in britain yeah with class and you've got the paul and ian mechanic yeah and you've got the lee and david mechanic and in america they don't have that that's not of interest to them they also spoke about american comics being very much more obsessed with their own material, because that's how you get big in America, is you're on the road the whole time you do your own stuff.

20:12Whereas in Britain, because we've had those Radio 4 panel shows for years, we're much more comfortable with bantering with each other. Well, that's the thing I think, is that so much of their satire is done via the monologue. It's interesting, actually, that a huge amount of their satire is done via late-night television, political satire, because, you know, in my view, their politics is quite right for satire, but there are so few people for instance writing political humor since even i mean obviously there's been people like pj roeck in the past but there are very few political satirists in the written word there's there's someone great at the washington post who i think is brilliant called alexander petrie she's fantastic and it's such a waste they don't have sketch writers they don't have sketch writers that's the thing that we have that they don't have at all sketch writers meaning like political sketches but they don't have to be just writing about parliament you know who and we have them in every paper and they're very popular and obviously there's been a huge amount of raw material in both our politics for the last over the last few years and it always seemed to me like such a waste yeah and it's with have i got news for you particularly because that is satire and it's politics and jimmy and richard have both said when you get left-wing comics and right-wing comics in the states they have a slightly different attitude towards it they find it less comfortable being funny about politics because it sort of feels like it's a bit more raw and you know because you know they they could be about to see the collapse of their entire civilization and so it's harder for them to to sort of sit back and relax and make jokes about it because they they want to make a point a lot of the time so this time round as you said cnn have commissioned it which could mark thompson who used to be the head of the bbc and weirdly was the features director at the bbc when have i got news for you first started in the uk which is 1990 so it's over 30 years ago that mark thompson has sort of been in charge of this show a lot but it means of course he understands exactly what the show is so jimmy is able to say to him look you know what the show is you know how we want to make it you know the kind of show that we need to make you know it can't be all that american we have to be able to relax into it a bit we have to have it a bit looser and mark thompson understands that and gets it so they're doing 10 weekly episodes leading up to um the election it's not a pilot this time it's a real series that's the first time they'll they'll have a real chance to to run at it the good news is uk tv and iplayer have both bought the rights as well well that'll be fun so we'll get a lot more viewers like cnn averages 600 000 viewers in prime time yes in the united states which i'm given to believe is quite a big country so it doesn't have to do amazing numbers let's put it that way it will probably do bigger numbers in the uk than in the us i think so but hopefully it's the sort of thing that if you do 10 episodes of it that the american viewing public will kind of go actually we like the vibe of this we like this yeah chatting around a subject rather than the you know whenever you talk to again peter holmes and richard wilson and various producers they say americans they cannot understand there's a number of things they cannot understand absolutely can't get their head around why is there no prize why do sometimes they give an answer they know to be incorrect oh yeah because they really care about the actual yeah exactly so because like So much of the fun of going on those shows is someone asks you a question and you have fun.

23:23You talk around it. You have a laugh before you then go on to it. But let's actually talk about the thing. So they absolutely don't understand that at all. And so you have to sort of show that a bit. As I say, the UK versions of these shows are very successful. The one version of these shows that has ever worked in the States, the one big UK comedy entertainment show that's really worked is Whose Line Is It Anyway? Yes, that's been a huge success. It was an absolutely massive hit. That came about sort of accidentally in that they were trying to do a pilot in the States. And in the States, of course, they're like, everyone has to be young and incredibly good looking.

24:00And Who's Lying in the UK had a lot of North American people in it. Ryan Stiles, Colin Mockrey, Americans and Canadians. Who were not the demographic that the networks are looking for. But then Ryan Stiles was in a sitcom with an American comic. It's huge in the States, not so much over here, called Drew Carey. and Ryan shows Drew Carey who's lying and Drew Carey goes well this is hilarious I'll host this and because he was a huge name suddenly it gets off the ground they can cast whoever they want because Drew Carey is allowed to have very much the Francis Ford Coppola of this piece he can do what he wants and that was a huge hit for almost no money because they have a massive improv tradition in that country and so it is part of their tradition other types of political satire it's not clear as Armando when they did a thick of it pilot for the US and they did it with ABC and it was networked and it's never been aired, although I think you can now find it.

24:53Oh, wow. Yeah, it was an absolute nightmare. He said it was just endless executives, all of whom he thought were complete buffoons. He wanted the BBC to sell it to HBO, which is obviously where lots of creators want to end up, but they didn't. They went with ABC because they paid more money. It had really good people in it. it was Oliver Platt was in it Michael McKean was in it Christopher Guest I think was directing but it just did not work and he knew it wasn't working and he thought this was a like it was just it just didn't work at all and it had to be so sort of stripped of so much of what makes the thick of it or a show like that its essence because it was networked and so then when he came back and did Veep with HBO they give you notes and their notes are always brilliant and helpful but it's not they do still say it is your show yeah and so he was able to do what he wanted by the way if there's anyone in the world who loves The Thick of It who has not watched Veep oh my god then you've got such a treat in store probably possibly my favourite television programme ever yeah I absolutely love it and the comedy is sort of identical I mean it goes in an American direction but it's the same thing that same season ABC had made pilots of these British shows The Thick of It Footballers Wives and Life on Mars and they passed on all of them so you can see at that point how many things the networks were making and just say you know we loved it in the uk version then they make it like yeah this doesn't work it's interesting so many uk sitcoms get made in the states it doesn't happen the other way around no but you know pretty much any big um uk sitcom gets made ab fab they tried ab fab was interesting is now on its fifth attempt is it yeah yeah yeah i think they're doing it again now so ab fab they were going to make uh roseanne was going to remake ab fab and carrie fisher was going to star in it and it didn't get off the ground.

26:37But weirdly, if there's season nine of Roseanne, Roseanne brings in Jennifer Saunders and Joanna Lumley as their characters from Ab Fab. They become part of the Roseanne universe off the back of that pilot. In between us, they've tried, yeah, they just put different bits of talent in it. The Office was obviously a brilliant success and that was incredible. But it became its own show. The first episode, I went back and watched them again recently. It's quite interesting. The first episode of the US one really tracks the first episode of the UK one and then it just spins off into this whole other world with these different characters.

27:08I mean, that is an exceptional show. So that was huge. And that was a really, really good interview with Stephen Merchant in the papers this weekend, talking about all sorts of things, talking about cancel culture, all sorts of things. But he's such a bright guy. But they were saying, oh, Stephen Merchant is the richest comedian in Britain. But didn't at any point mention, well, yeah, because the American office is probably the most lucrative program in the history. I mean, at one point, it was 12 % of all of Netflix's viewing was The Office. And, you know, they're doing a spin-off of it. And so, you know, so The Office is absolutely enormous.

27:43The show that's recently broken through, and very, very few UK sitcoms do break through. And when they do, there's a lot of money in it. So The Office, the one that has just broken through, I think it's about to start its fourth season, maybe fifth season, is Ghosts. Yes. So Ghosts, they remade. And it's been a really, really big hit. And it's going, you know, it's running and running and running. So that's lovely because the people who make Ghosts, much like Stephen, are the loveliest people. Yes, they're fantastic. So it's nice to know they're getting some network money now. I mean, some other political ones, I'm trying to think.

28:14House of Cards, but obviously that had a little issue eventually. Yes. But House of Cards, that worked. And Shameless? Shameless went on for a few seasons. Shameless did pretty well. With William H. Macy. In the format world, there's Undercover Boss, which is a UK show that was huge millionaire and Weakest Link of course were huge but in terms of the other way around American TV to UK TV almost no scripted famously we remember remaking Golden Girls as Brighton Bells and that was a that was a famous flop in terms of formats though two of the biggest shows on British TV now which are Gladiators and Apprentice are both remakes of American formats but the real era for that was the 70s there's lots of game shows that I think we think are quintessentially British, all of which are American.

29:03So Blockbusters is American. Is it? Catchphrase is American. University Challenge is American. That was College Bowl. Blind Date is American. Family Fortunes. Strike It Lucky. Blankety Blank is American. So we took all of those things over in the 70s. But now that world, the game show world, we're in charge of. But in the same way that Whose Line Is It Anyway sort of accidentally managed to get a summer slot years ago and became a huge hit, I'm hoping that the fact that they've committed to 10 episodes of Have I Got News For You means that the Americans might finally crack and embrace panel shows because they've got great comic talent.

29:38These things are cheaper than the stuff they're making anyway. Oh, yes. It's not expensive. You know, you can make a whole load of them. But, you know, the idea that Would I Lie To You or Taskmaster are not huge hits in America is crazy because, of course, they should be. People listening to this in America, well, if you're executives or Francis Ford Coppola, let's do Would I Lie To You in the States, shall we? and good luck by the way to have I Got News for You which has got an amazing team behind it and exciting that we'll be able to see it as well Yes, that's the good thing, we will be able to see it Now shall we finish talking about the Sunday Times Rich List a sort of annual event that comes out and by the way, people are obsessed with lists People also love to be in them I remember there's this guy who used to own Reading called John Majeski and a friend of mine once went and interviewed him and even though it was months after the publication of Rich List casually laid on the coffee table outside his office was the rich list in which he'd made his entry that year.

30:33And it's like, oh, gross. He was a suitor of Cilla Black? Yes, they were both celebrity conservatives. And they met through their passion for celebrity conservative causes. I mean, the Sunday Times rich list is essentially a list of celebrity conservatives. But the thing I thought was interesting to talk about, so it's an extraordinary list and towards the top of the list are the billionaires. but I thought it'd be interesting to talk about how difficult it is to become a billionaire through entertainment because a lot of the people who are billionaires either inherited it from their parents or are in chemicals in some way or in property but to actually become a billionaire through entertainment it's so difficult that for the first time ever Paul McCartney has just become a billionaire I mean literally in the Beatles you have to be in the Beatles to become an to be a talent by the way we should say And by the way, you have to be in the Beatles for 60 years to become a billionaire.