How To Publish A Bestseller

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1:25Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osman. Hi Marina. Hello, you're in Birmingham. I am. I'm in Birmingham. I'm in the offices of Heart and Smooth. And you're at the Goalhanger, like the Goalhanger HQ. Oh yeah, I'm at the Mothership. What's it like? I'm gathering a large amount of intelligence with which I will, we can have a full debrief later. I always assume it's very Bunga Bunga-like there. Oh, yes. Constant parties, I think. Yes, I think it's very much like that. It's in a very big sort of working complex with all sorts of people.

2:02So when I know more, so will you, Richard. Is it like Tom Hanks' flat in Big? Yeah. I mean, of course, there's, you know, pinball machines and stuff. I've had to push them all out of shot because I just thought it lowered the tone. Linear car and trampoline. Yeah, it's just over there. What are we talking about this week? Well, I think we are going to talk about fake celebrity romances, showmances, although that term is disputed. We are also going to talk about publication of books. Your book is out this week. I want to ask all sorts of things about what happens in publication week. A certain friend of the podcast, Lauren Sanchez, also has a children's book out this week, which I...

2:37Oh, and that's the battle of the big guns, isn't it? Mevi Sanchez, finally. Yeah, bye-bye. I need to marry someone who owns Amazon. Yeah, you had a good run. And also, very excitingly, I finally have an excuse to talk about my favourite programme of all time which is nothing to declare uh and uh you know the the one about australian border force i shall tell you what that excuse is but it's very interesting about the future of television but um it's essentially just gonna be me talking about how much i love nothing to declare that'll keep people listening won't it i hope so now listen can can we please kick off with showmances yes please this is off the back of the fact that a fake contract was leaked i guess it's not even been leaked if it's not fake but someone has put out into the world a fake contract suggesting that Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey's relationship is not real it's just been a stage thing and that it's it's going to have run its pre-planned course and they're going to break up at the end of the month and there's going to be some sort of notes app style apology and that it's all been a PR stunt if that happened that would be too much for me I'm too invested in that in that relationship it would be like for me hearing that you and Ingrid aren't actually together that's it I'm out I'm out or Jeff Bezos and Lauren Sanchez hearing if that was fake that would break reality.

3:48But first of all, we should say that showmance is a word. It's a little bit like when we discussed this before, staycation. It slightly means different things to different people. In theatre, it used to mean like an affair where you have with someone while the show's running. The US Big Brother, someone said, oh, look, they're just having a showmance of about two contestants right back in the 2000s. But it just sort of morphed into meaning, oh, right, this is one of those things that publicists have set up. First of all, I suppose you have to say, does this actually happen? And the answer is yes, this has obviously always happened.

4:18And if you go back to the golden age of the studios, the Hollywood studios, right back in silent films, they were always kind of creating these fake romances and saying when they sort of owned stars, they were sort of contract players. And it was obviously a huge way of creating buzz because I think there was one film that Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney were in when they were very young and they were made to it was made to seem as though they were having a romance but it was most often used to kind of hide the sexuality of closeted gay actors and actresses right back in those days so I mean Valentino married somebody an actress called Jean Acker and it was not well well Valentino and Jean Acker that was for real surely I'm so sorry she locked him out of the room on the wedding night and I think he was probably quite willing to be locked So there's quite a few of these.

5:11This is where the lavender marriage term came from. So there were many, many of these romances. But in this day and age, people sort of think all the time that things are staged. Taylor and Travis, I don't think for one second that is staged. It's so ridiculous. I do think that the reason that some people get into all these things is because it's sort of, first of all, it speaks to a kind of conspiracist mindset in general of our age. This is a great age of conspiracies and people always want to think they can see behind the curtain. Because that relationship is sort of perfect, isn't it? It's like America's sweetheart with America's golden boy.

5:47Yeah. It seems convenient. How many people could have staged it? Like, you know, the commissioner of the NFL, Roger Goodall, he might have staged it because it's got the ratings up. Her publicist might have staged it because she's got a tour on. There's all sorts of reasons why this may have happened. By the way, I think this is all complete nonsense and it hasn't. That's not what's happened. Listen, they just met and they fell in love. Yeah. Having said that, you know, think of how much of her output is full of little Easter eggs and people try and count things and think of all the significance of certain days and things like that.

6:17So we're used to thinking of Taylor Swift in this very kind of planned breadcrumb following way. Do you think all of her previous relationships have been on the level or do you think she has been involved in a fomence or showmence at any point with any of the people that she's been linked to? That's fascinating. I have to say that given what we know of her personality, we know so much of her personality because she puts it out there. I think it's unlikely her PR is this woman called Tree Payne and she used to run the Christian and country section of Warner's music. and I just don't think they do too much of it within that I have to say but she left Warners in 2014 with one client Emma's Taylor Swift and she'd have to say she's done quite well for herself and Tree Payne is is married to Denzel Washington right yeah Tree Payne is yes they lived it yeah no she's I think it's very unlikely the trouble is Travis Kelsey has got a publicist called Jack Katosian who unfortunately five years ago did go on some Australian podcast and say oh yeah these things happen all the time and I myself have set up two showmances for the cameras um or yeah I know so he can hardly complain now he's saying I'm going to sue it's like well I mean you know what reputation do you have to defend but he said I've orchestrated fake um romances you're doing it to kind of distract from sort of bad publicity um or maybe if someone's had a project that's flopped it kind of draws the eye somewhere else so it also multiplies fame a little bit doesn't it if you've got two people who are semi-famous and they they are together their fame multiplies by each other and suddenly they are more than one famous person people who understand that there's kind of people who sort of sort of i don't know instinctively reflexively understand what is required of them in public i think at the 1991 oscars is madonna and michael jackson went together and they held hands no yeah and everyone's like and you're saying that's a fomance well yeah i'm saying that she claims actually i think that she had a big glass of wine and then stuck her tongue in his mouth later i know madonna and michael jackson well i mean i think just you know at vanity fair oscar party or something who knows again i think that was pretty performative i have to say certainly on his butt but really recently great podcast favorite certainly a favorite of mine glenn powell and uh sydney sweeney when it was when they were publicizing anyone but you.

8:41I think that she said to him, let's just have a pretend romance for the cameras. It's just funny, which they did. They kept being all these sort of funny pictures. And they sort of lent into it because I think she just thought it was funny. And then afterwards, he was very careful to say it had all been a game, but it was fine. It was her idea. And I think she said, I mean, she is, as I say, someone who reflexively understands a certain type of publicity. She said, it's what the people want to see. So we gave it to them. Sometimes you've got to work hard to movie it's kind of true though isn't it it's uh listen it's all it's all playing the game it's when as you say in in the olden days it was forced upon people a lot of the time uh and for very uncomfortable reasons as well you look at elton john getting married and it was a sadder time rod stewart sent a telegram to that wedding saying you may still be standing we're on the all on the floor oh rod well done rod listen they've got a hilarious relationship those those too he called it out to be fair but isn't it lovely we live in a culture now where he's in an absolute 100 solid as a rock love match with david furnish and he's comfortable talking about it you're comfortable being in all the papers and some things in this world progress do they not and that's certainly one of them listen i mean taylor and travis is a is a wonderful sort of world conquering relationship but it most often happens there when someone comes out of love island or someone comes out a big brother and they're couples and this this this is the kind of currency that they have once you come out of love island you have to have something to get you in the paper and a relationship is probably the easiest way to do that absolutely then people are sort of still interested in you after the life of the show has ended there are people mind you though i mean obviously for many many years people have talked about the different ndas around tom cruise's relationship that you needed nda to go on the first date it was clear that katie Holmes his ex-wife was in a very long relationship with Jamie Foxx for many years afterwards but it was said and reported very widely that she was not supposed to date in public until after a certain time and so all of that was kind of that there are massive orchestrations with things like NDAs which is so NDAs a non-disclosure agreement so that's something that you will sign if you if you've been shown a project or you date to somebody or just just a legal thing that says whatever happens in this room, whatever happens in this relationship, you are not allowed to talk about it on pain of being sued.

11:06Yes. And this document, within reason, a relatively new tool of the publicist trade, because it's certainly to the degree that it's become so widespread. NDAs are used all the time now, but they're also used in business. I think the New York Magazine did a cover story recently calling it the legal document of our time, because they have become something that was really quite a specialist thing. And of course, maybe, you know, if you're Tom Cruise, you get someone to sign something like this if they become your housekeeper or whatever it is. But now the proliferation of these things across all levels, and that's everything from assistants to people who might one day deliver the flowers to everything, people are signing these things all the time.

11:42I mean, celebrities are weird. You have to say celebrities are weird. Celebrities are people of whom a significant number could believe that, you know, Beyonce faked an entire pregnancy. There are people who will actually believe that. There are many, many, many people. And there are people who will sit there all day and tell you things. You saw it to a different extent. And as we recently saw with Kate Middleton, the Princess of Wales, there were huge conspiracies when she disappeared for obviously medical reasons from the public eye. And people will say anything, they are able to get into on a kind of feeding frenzy on social media, where they just do believe that they are seeing behind the curtain and that they understand.

12:18As I say, it's an age of it's an age of NDAs and it's an age of conspiracies. There's also a weird middle ground, by the way. So as you say, these things used to be put together by the studios and by PRs and things like that. There is a weird middle ground now if you are on a celebrity reality show or regular reality show. And there's two of you there and you both sort of know it would be useful for you both to be in a relationship and this would kind of multiply your brand and amplify it. So you just kind of go, well, let's give it a go anyway. And then you fall in love. you know tommy fury and molly may i bet they both kind of knew that this was monetizable though i suspect then they did fall in love and you know they had they had a child and then it fell apart so there's gradations of showmances and fomances it's a good rom-com two people who are forced together for publicity purposes who fall in love i think someone did a really bad version of it um called the arrangement that's what i was planning to do well that's the truth i was planning to do a very bad version of it you could do the good version someone did a bad version of it was on something like e or something in america and i remember seeing one episode um but i think you could do a really good version of it because it's very very interesting um and as i say the legal side of all of these things just because there isn't a showmance or a fomance doesn't mean there aren't a million little legal documents protecting every side of this so to some extent all of these relationships are managed in ways that the public can't see but suspect something you know more is going on behind the scenes well in that wonderful book Reats for the Stars that Michael Craig wrote about the boy bands and girl bands of the 90s and noughties.

13:46The amount of, the opposite of this, of people who were in very loving relationships and they weren't allowed to tell anybody, to keep that completely secret. You know, we weren't allowed to date anybody. If you're in Five or if you're in Bross or, you know, any of that, you were not allowed to publicly be in a relationship with anybody. Well, that's like K-pop now. Yes, K-pop, they're really not allowed to do anything. Yeah, and you're incredibly managed and you must be available to the fans. Because Ritchie from Five, I think, was in a relationship with Billy and they just went, you know what, we're both famous, we can deal with this, we can handle this.

14:18And the grief that Billy Piper got from that, from fans, and you know, that whole world is sort of a mess, isn't it? The casual death threats of the 12-year-old girls, as we've discussed before, the relentless onslaught of it is pretty, is a lot to handle. here's the interesting thing okay so we always think about these fomances and showmances and so on and there's always speculation about famous people who date each other but it comes about because so many famous people date each other now why is that what's that all about well it's their peer group i mean as they would say no one else can understand the life i'm forced to lead forced yeah because because celebrities often there comes a point where they hang out with each other an awful lot rather than say they're friends from school a lot of celebrities don't seem to have an awful lot of friends from school oh no they've shed them all along the way yes and they so they they kind of embrace the new world whole wholeheartedly but also there is a safety to dating non-civilians dating a civilian they might end up going to the papers afterwards they might they just might not understand the codes and morays of your new world your new glittery world and so you can see why it happens um and i do think that people feel like they're constantly trying to debunk kind of some mainstream media narrative and they're never never happier than when they're doing it i always think that um someone who believes absolutely nothing by and large is more stupid than someone that believes absolutely everything definitely if that makes sense and that that describes a lot of our culture at the moment you can see that the strategy is always adapting sometimes it's good for them to be with someone sometimes it's not I think Taylor Swift is probably, and Travis Kelsey, probably both doing okay without having to have a showmance.

16:05So we think they're for real. We think that Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart, that's for real. That's 100. And by the way, that is the breaking of reality. If they're not together, I'm out of here. I mean, listen, you're in the goldhanger offices. Yeah. You can just sense it there, right? Oh, yeah. Do you know what? When testosterone mixes with testosterone, there's like an awful doom spiral of love. I can absolutely sense that. On that note, I think we'd better withdraw from this story, Richard. Yes, good idea. At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear, like high-quality walking shoes, which might lead to another discovery.

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18:33Welcome back, everybody. It is obviously a fateful day this Thursday because Richard's new book, We Solve Murders, is out. And I would like to ask you about your publication week and in fact, publication weeks in general, Richard. We call them pub weeks, but that makes them sound more fun than they are yeah it's the one place you're probably not going to go into yeah tell me what you've been doing and why you've been doing those things well there's two different things i'll talk about the uk and then i'll talk about the us because the different publication weeks and i'm obviously able to do a lot more in the uk than i can do in the us so it's interesting to compare and contrast you do magazines and newspapers and stuff like that that stuff you have to do a month ago or two months ago because of their lead times but this is the week where i get to go on live stuff so i'm going on the one show on uh you love the one show for selling a book don't you oh my god what is it about the one show that just you feel like it's the sweet spot you know i love stats and i love numbers and there's people at penguin random house you can look at kind of sales figures the whole time and they they look at the spike after various different tv shows and they can tell you exactly which tv shows are the most useful tv shows to go on and the one show is definitely one of them it's just got a big audience and a very engaged audience and an audience that buys books and an audience that you know is interested in hearing about books So I love going on the one show.

19:47The key with all of those things, sometimes you see people go on those shows, authors, and they don't really talk about the book. And then there isn't the spike. You have to tell people how much you love the book. You have to, if you've got something you're proud of and that you think they'll like, you have to tell people about it. I was going to say, do you have a real game plan when you go out there of talking points you want to hit, all of those things? Not really. It all, genuinely, it all comes down to, are you proud of the book? And if you are, you're just letting people know that. Obviously, I've got an elevator pitch for the plot of the book and things like that.

20:17The big difference is if an interviewer has read your book and enjoyed your book, then it's a really, really great experience. And that's whether it's a local newspaper, whether it's the one show, whatever it is, if they've read it and enjoyed it, then they will usually sell the book for you. And that's a really, really useful thing to do. So the one show I'm doing this week, apart from that, I'm just doing radio. So I'm doing Zoe Ball. I'm doing Chris Evans. I'm doing global radio. and with those things people always go yeah but people will get bored because you know you're on Chris Evans and then you're on Zoe Ball and then you're doing you know heart breakfast I think no but because no one listens to all of them.

20:47I remember your mum saying to you why did you tell that same anecdote that you told on TalkSport on something like Newsnight and you were like mum I'm that you're the only person who has listened to both of those. No one is listening to both of and I'm one of the few people who's happy being booked on TalkSport as I am on the Today programme I'm very happy with either of those. Well, that's unusual about you. I do think that's unusual because a lot of authors will say to you, oh my God, it's the worst because, you know, I'm an introvert. I sit alone for most of the time. And then suddenly you've got to sort of emerge and be on the scene and talk to people and do however many interviews a day.

21:22And they find it really, really hard. I realise that you're not held back by this. I always say I was talking, I was on Sunday brunch, I think. No, Saturday kitchen, Sunday brunch, Saturday kitchen. You know what I mean? Same thing. and there was a chef, and she had a cookbook out, and she was like, I don't know how to sell it. There's going to be a point where they talk to me about the book, and I feel too shy to sell it. And I said, well, are you proud of it? And she went, yeah, I'm incredibly proud of it. And I said, well, say that, because that's not arrogance. That's not saying you're going to love it.

21:49It's just saying that this is from my heart. I love it. I put it together with love, and people really, really respond to that. But you can do that without feeling like a fraud. You can never say my book is great, but you can say I'm proud of a book or stuff like that. It's fascinating because I always, you know, you can always look at the charts and if ever, like there's a cookbook at number one on the Amazon charts at the moment by Poppy O'Toole, then I'll know that she's been on Sunday brunch or Saturday kitchen. On Sunday, the chart is always the top three is always one dish bakes by somebody or other.

22:17And you know, they've been on Saturday kitchen. I'll do all of that stuff in this week and then Lorraine next week and various other things. Can I ask you about reviews? Because by the way, the reviews of your book, every single one has been phenomenal and has said, he's done it again. This is amazing. I love this new series. Obviously, you must be always terrified that like, well, you're not terrified because you just realise it's coming. It's an inevitability that at some point someone's going to go, I'll tell you what, I'm just going to randomly give this a kicking. But do you think the reviews shift books?

22:44Not really. No, I think word of mouth shifts books. And that's the only thing that shifts books. I think maybe in the case of We Sold Murders, because people have already read Thursday Murder Club, and they're worried, oh, maybe this will be different. And you read a review that says, oh, it's the same old thing. No, they haven't said that, by the way. Not so much. Broadsheet can be very good for if you've got a slightly more obscure book from an independent press that people might not have heard of. It can suddenly take that from no one knowing it to being at number nine or number eight in the chart, which can be the start of a really big thing.

23:15Now, one thing I am doing this week, which I would say to any author, because we'll talk about my American publication week, which is completely different, because that is me. You know, there's no TV or anything like that. It's me just going to bookshops and it's me talking to blogs and all, you know, all the hard yard stuff, which I also love doing. But the one thing I'm doing this week that is a possibility for other authors is, and I've said it before, the biggest rated show on television almost every day is local news. If you are a local author in a local place and you have an interesting story and you have something to say about your book or you've teamed up with a local charity or with a local bookstore, then always, always, always pitch your story to local news because it's huge.

23:53Local news is massive and that's local radio and it's local television and all of that kind of stuff. Pitching it to those people, pitching it to local bookshops, that's the thing that really, really works. Go into wherever your local Waterstones is, even if you've got to get on a train to do it. Talk to them because they'll talk to Central Waterstones and you never know. You absolutely never know, which is what I do in America, is go door to door, hand to hand, shop to shop, meet people, talk to people, put the book in their hand and grow it organically. And as I say, in the UK, I'm immensely fortunate.

24:20So I'm aware that what I'm talking about is not something that a debut author is able to do. So over here, I can talk about it as interestingly about what it means about television, what it means about which shows are popular. In the other countries in the world, you know, in Germany, America, stuff like that, I'm doing the going from shop to shop to shop, chatting to everyone I can, signing whatever I can, talking to whoever I can, talking to every single blog there is, talking to every single podcast there is, saying yes to pretty much or yeah, to pretty much every opportunity. And that's how you break in a territory.

24:48And we should say that publishers have fantastic people on the ground in all these places who sort of come and meet you often if you're in a far-flung place and are really nice to you and take you to all that and take you between the different places. And really kind of they're sort of local stringers almost and they really kind of care for you and they do the same for so many authors all the time. If you're a debut author, the single most important people are the sales reps. Nobody else. Someone to say, oh, you should have a launch party and we'll have champagne for your friends. Have a champagne for the sales reps.

25:18they're the single most important people in that entire process because they give it to the book shops the bookshops give it to people people give it to their friends that's the that's that's the way you sell books a lot i've never had a launch party ever in my life because it's people who already know me you know i always say every anytime anything is ever suggested i always say how many books will it sell i'm so annoying uh and so you know i would never have a launch party but i think what's interesting is so my book is out this week and people often ask why are books out in certain weeks and why do hardbacks come out at a certain time and why do paperbacks come out at a certain time what we are in now is like you know a sprint in the tour de france when everyone sort of just gets their place about a kilometer from the end they all sort of get on the shoulder of the people they need to get on and the entire publishing industry from the start of september is essentially jockeying for christmas number one and also jockeying essentially just for christmas sales which are which dwarf sales at any other time forget holiday sales you know people we're going on summer holiday, Christmas sales is where every single pound is.

26:17And that's for authors, that's for publishers, that is for bookstores, that's for everybody. My week, which is this week, my book is coming out, the Guinness World Records is coming out, which was Christmas number one last year. The idea of it is you get your first week sales, which hopefully if you're a known author are big and people love what you do. But then also as it gets towards Christmas, you've got all of those kind of gifting stuff and there's just a lot more kind of publicity. shops are putting more money into advertising things. It's a very big market. This precise week is the primo week, isn't it?

26:49No. There's Super Thursday. Books always come out on Thursdays. Yeah. And they come out every two weeks. So all the big books will come. There'll be a fortnight. There'll be a gap in between where the big books won't come out. And that's purely because of the supermarkets. And the supermarkets change their stock every two weeks. And so the big books only come out every two weeks, which is a very weird thing. But you'll see if you ever look at the top 10 charts. Last week, I think there were five new entries in the top 10. It was all big people. It was all the Bob Mortimer book, Matt Haig, Kate Atkinson all came out in the same week.

27:20This week, you will see they will still all be in the top 10 because nothing big has come out to disrupt them. But then the week of sales that we're about to have, mine is out, Guinness World Records is out, Bella Mackey's book is out. The bigger books that try to avoid each other. So Sally Rooney's is out on the 24th. So people are trying to avoid me, people are trying to avoid Sally Rooney. Matt Haig bought his out a little bit earlier. Bob Mortimer bought his out a little bit earlier, the end of August. But Super Thursday, which this year is October the 10th, and this is a huge thing in publishing, there are 1 ,900 new releases bought out on Super Thursday, of which 450 are hardbacks.

27:52Oh, my God. A lot of books and a lot of sales for bookstores as well. And Ian Rankin is out on Super Thursday this year, and he's essentially had the number one on Super Thursday, I think, for three of the last four years, Ian Rankin, quite rightly as well. Sophie Consider is out on that day. Kate Moss is out on that day. Boris Johnson's book is out on that day he is out on Super Thursday Boris Johnson Unleashed all the big hitters essentially in every fortnight from here until roughly Christmas this is where you're going to get your Christmas number one from so two weeks ago Bob Mortimer this week you've got Guinness World Records the 24th you've got Sally Rooney Intermezzo which will be a huge book and Jamie Oliver as well October the 24th you've got David Walliams against Jeff Kinney the first time they've ever released books on the same day that's the Diary of a Wimpy Kid guy Jeff Kinney and also Lee Child's new novel written by Andrew Child, his brother.

28:42But Christmas number one. So November the 19th, there's two books coming out which are both going to do very well. Pinch of Nom, which is the book that often gets Christmas number one. They always release very near Christmas because they think they'll get Christmas number one. But that's been released on the same day, November the 19th, as Cher's autobiography. That's going to be good, isn't it? Yeah, that I am looking forward to. And the big autobiographies this year, by the way, Cher, Alison Stedman, they've got high hopes for one, Al Pacino as well. So those are all the books that are in the market for that kind of huge Christmas time.

29:11It's all the hardbacks that come out. And hardbacks is where publishers really, really make their money because they cost more than paperbacks, just to put it bluntly. So it's the same book, but it doesn't cost an awful lot more to produce, but they make a lot more money. So everything is thrown at these three months. And the one thing I always find fascinating, so Waterstones, I think, is opening up at midnight for the Sally Reilly book. There's sort of 10 different Waterstones that are opening up, and you can queue up and you can buy it. And I thought before I was in the book industry that that's gone.

29:40My God, the publishers must be throwing a lot of money at that to get them to open up early. And the thing you really realize is the book market leading up to Christmas is so lucrative that the real battle is between the book chains. The real battle is between Waterstones, W8 Smiths, and Tesco and Sainsbury's, you know, and the independents. That's the thing. If you've got a book, if you think Sally Rooney is going to sell 200 ,000 hardbacks, for example, at 15 quid each, that's a lot of money. And Tesco wants to be market leader there. Sainsbury's want to be market leader, Waterstones want to be, W.O.H.