Is The Bear REALLY a Comedy?

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1:14Hello and welcome to this episode of the rest is entertainment with me marina hyde and me richard osman Hello, everybody. Hello marina. Hello, richard. How are you? How has your publication week been? I would say busy. I was just saying to you, it's been weeks since we've done a podcast and it wasn't. It was six days ago. Yes, I've spoken a lot. And it's lovely to be able to speak about other people's work now instead of mine. Huge congratulations. And we want to hear much more about it always. My favourite thing is always going from TalkSport to Times Radio and having to remember which one you're on.

1:42That's the key. Slightly switching your personality. Do you recalibrate yourself? Yeah, 100%. I mean, TalkSport's my favourite because I talk about the book for a minute and then I can talk about Fulham for 10 minutes. Then you go on Times Radio, you have to talk about quantitative easing or something. But listen, I can turn my hands to both. Of course you can. And we're talking about quantitative easing today. You are a renaissance man. So this week we are going to talk about, we'll talk a bit about the Emmys, which happened on Sunday night or into Monday morning if you live in the UK. Which we do.

2:11Which we do. So we will talk about the White Stripes are suing Trump for using, one of a million artists who are not happy with Donald Trump using their music, but are actually suing. So we'll talk a little bit about that. We're also going to talk about whether it's the White Stripes or the White Stripes. What is it? The White Stripes. The White Stripes. Well, I'll just have to say it in context. I know you've made me think about it too hard. They're not even words any longer. Wait, we'll hear it in context and then you can pull me up on it. We'll be talking about that and a sort of history of songs that have been used by various campaigns as well.

2:47But we're going to start with... So musicals, okay, West End musicals that are based on movies. Okay, right. In the West End right now, or currently, or about to open, are Mean Girls, the musical Back to the Future, Moulin Rouge, Mrs. Doubtfire, Facing the Crowd, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, Devil Wears Prada is about to open, The Producer is about to open, The Lion King, obviously that's been open, that absolute behemoth. And then you've got things like Magic Mike, Ghost in Concert, My Neighbour Tutorial, Silence the musical, which is like a parody Silence of the Lambs musical. And then last week it was announced that there are two new musicals based on movies coming to the West End.

3:26Clueless, which is coming to the Trafalgar Theatre, and Titanic, which is at the Criterion, which is a bit of a parody of the movie, but it has the Celine Dion songs and so on. So one of the things that's really interesting is that it all sort of sprung from some years ago, Universal Studios, the movie people, realised that actually the most successful thing they'd basically ever made ever, ever was not a movie, but was the musical Wicked. And what happened with that one was the books done by someone called Winnie Holtzman, but Stephen Schwartz did the music and lyrics and he'd read this book, which was based, you know, the sort of prequel story to The Wizard of Oz on a holiday, I think.

4:05And he'd said, oh, I really want to do this. And he found that Universal, unfortunately, had the rights to it. And they were, you know, saying, oh, well, we're going to make a movie about it. It was like, sure you are. They were probably never going to do it. which is one of many, many things they held the rights to. And he managed to persuade them to let him do it as a musical. I mean, that thing, it makes billions, OK? It makes absolutely billions. And so what suddenly started happening... By the way, I talked to a theatre producer this week. He said, do you know that the work of creative art in the whole of history that has made the most money in any genre, so music, film, video game, anything, is Lion King the musical.

4:40It's made more money than any other piece of art in the history of pieces of art. And the reason that these things make money, and we'll come in deeper depth to this in a minute, is that they obviously they make money in their original markets. Maybe it's Broadway, maybe it's the West End, but it's touring. It's going on the road that you make unbelievable amounts of money within the US and then around the world. OK, so having really slightly patronised theatre for a long time in the 20th century, the movies were like, right, we need to have lots of significant appointments and people are going to head up our theatre divisions on Broadway.

5:16So that went on. And as you can see, there's lots of successful musicals. But now lots of them are starting in London, which is really interesting. First of all, some good news, which is that the West End is in rude health. It has come back completely after Covid. Booming. Yeah, beyond. There's no dark theatre. This is not something you hear people in theatre. People in theatre are always telling you that their business is on the edge of the cliff. Now, Broadway hasn't come back as well. There's numbers of reasons for that. People think that it hasn't come back as well after the pandemic. Sometimes people are staying away.

5:48Maybe there are fewer office workers or people, suburbanites who will come in at the weekend. Whatever's happened, they are losing money on Broadway. I think over the summer they lost$250 million. Wow. We'll come to how we know how much they lose in America. Oh, great. We declined to talk about this in our country. Anyway, but a show in Broadway, if you want to put a show on in Broadway. Which I do. Which you do. Yeah. It costs, well, first of all, start here, Richard, which I'm sure you will. Yeah, sure. It costs about five times as much to do it there. So if you put on a show here, you might, something that costs like a million pounds to put on here could cost$8 million over there.

6:24and there's various reasons for that, most particularly how heavily unionised they are and their union activity means that people get paid a lot more and things are just miles, miles more expensive. So what you really have now is quite a good situation for the UK which you've got lots of Americans coming to London to develop their musicals and see how they go and get them started. Now, they're much more attracted in a way to London, to New York. If it works, Broadway is still the dream and everyone wants their musical on Broadway. And by the way, of course, the upside on Broadway is a great deal more than it can be in the West End as well.

6:55The upside in Broadway can be absolutely, insanely lucrative. It is insanely lucrative. But you can retire off a musical if you have a successful one in London. Oh, yeah. I was told there's a musical running in London at the moment, one of the very, very few that isn't based on IP or isn't based on a movie. And someone was telling me that the two creators are making a six-figure sum each week each. Just because it's run and run. And by the way, it's brilliant. So the upside on theatre and musical is enormous. most things lose money, but if they make money, goodness me. All you need to do is take one look at Tim Rice's house and you'll know how much money you can make in musicals, a good musical, a hit musical.

7:32There is a snobbery about this sort of thing. If you look at something like Mean Girls, which obviously was a very successful film, and then they made a musical of it, which it did well on Broadway, but it made an absolute fortune out on the road touring in the US, at which point they thought, could we now make this back into a movie? So that has been made back into a movie. We know that Wicked, which obviously touched as a musical, that's being made with Cynthia Eriva and Ariana Grande. The first half of that is coming out later this year. I think that will do enormous business. But you know that there's a big audience for it out there because you just toured it around the States or you toured it wherever and you can see.

8:06So Mean Girls, then people were really surprised that the movie of the musical of Mean Girls, which itself was of the movie, made a lot of money. They should make a musical of that. Yes, they should do. They hit behind the scenes on it, behind the scenes of behind the scenes. but people can be really snobby about this sort of thing because they sort of say, oh, well, aren't there any new ideas? Well, excuse me, theatre has always been a revival art form. You don't say, oh, they're remaking a Tom Stoppard play. It's like, yeah, that's what they do. Oh God, they're doing another Mozart concerto.

8:34Come on, guys. Midsummer Night's Dream. Seen it. Yeah. No new ideas under the sun. But actually, quite clearly, they are different properties because you're not remaking Mean Girls when you're remaking the movie of that. It's something else. There's been some sort of sublimation. Something else has happened to it and it's become a different thing. And so you can see all these kind of shows that are coming, things like Clueless. Now, one of the things that a lot of it, and you're very good on this, Richard, one of the things a lot of people don't think of in many, many different media, and it's quite surprising is, who's my audience?

9:07It seems like such an obvious question, but a huge number of people don't think of it. Now, Clueless, this is a cult movie. it's particularly caught amongst like gen x and people who now have the money or are people who go to theaters women demographic lots and lots of things say to me that that will be a hit but there is still a snobbery about all of this a mega snobbery in the west end we don't know anything about like how much british theaters make because unlike broadway which publishes the grosses every week this is how we know they're 250 million dollars down there is no publication of it so if anyone's saying oh my musical's doing better than anyone else's it's hard for that to be a kind of great thing on a poster because we don't know what anyone else is so we have nothing to compare it with but i think the issue so there's not a snobbery thing but there's definitely a thing which is the west end has a limited number of theaters yeah uh as you say none of them are currently dark because there's always something to fill them but there's not that many of them and we're in a position now where some theater producers would say every single theater has got a musical in it and almost all those come from existing IP they all come from movies so you're seeing almost kind of half of the theatres that are available putting on a play that is something to do with IP and people might think that that's unhealthy for the for the theatre ecosystem in London.

10:24I agree but I disagree that there isn't a snobbery because half the critics don't even like to review the West End there's a lot of that there is a difference between I was talking to a theatre producer this week who was saying to me there's a real difference between US theatre critics and UK theatre critics, which is that US theatre critics are at least notionally interested in the business and numerate, and they understand things that are making money and there's not some sort of embarrassment and it's frightfully and fatigue and you should only be talking about the art. They are interested in things as, you know, successes and what that indicates.

10:56And financial success is obviously part of that because it's all got to work. You see, that's the fascinating thing. We talked about the upside of theatre and we talked a little about how much it costs. And this is why this IP thing has gone absolutely crazy and is going to keep going crazy. I talked to a lovely guy called Jon O 'Farrell. He's one of our finest comedy writers, been around for years, used to write, have I got news for you, and all sorts of things. And a few years ago, turned his hands to writing musicals. Like anything Jon does, he turns his hand to it brilliantly. So he did a big show on Broadway called Something Rotten with the Kirkpatrick brothers, which ran for two years.

11:30But he said it didn't ever quite make it. It didn't quite sort of get over that bit where you think, oh, my God, this is running forever and we're making millions upon millions. And he said he would go down to Times Square to the ticket booth, the TKTS booth on Times Square. And he would just see lines of tourists. And they were all just looking at the board. And they'd see his thing, something rotten. It's sort of based on Shakespeare, early days of Shakespeare. And go, oh, I don't really know what that is. And then they would see Legally Blonde and go, well, we do know what that is. and he said just every person in the queue was looking up the thing just going oh let's go and see the thing that we've heard of because it's 150 a ticket and there's four of them you it's not something you're going to take a chance on you're happy to pick up a paperback aren't you in a shop yeah but 600 you you have to have something that um you've already heard of and so someone came to him after something rotten which by the way now has an incredible life in american schools virtually every school in america has done a production of something rotten type thing yeah it's an educational and which they make a lot of money from i mean it's really you know a lot of money in it so someone came to me said well would you do mrs doubtfire the musical and of course its response was yes because i've just done this musical which takes so much out of you it's so difficult to do so expensive to put on i mean an absolute an eye-watering amount of money to put on and even after two years does it's not really turning a massive profit so yes i will do the thing that when i go down to that ticket queue everyone's going to go oh it's mrs doubtfire uh Let's go and see that.

12:52And so that's been two years in the West End now and is doing very well. But it's fascinating about the process because, of course, Fox, who are now Disney, of course they want Mrs. Doubtfire in the theatres. I think they suggested Night at the Museum first. And John's like, I don't know. They said Mrs. Doubtfire. He went, oh, yeah, absolutely. And, of course, they want it to be as true as possible to the IP. They said there's no way we're making this without Boobs on Fire and Pie in Face. those two things have to be in this musical so he said now yesterday in fact they announced he's doing the Live Aid musical which I think will be amazing called Just For One Day and again that's an interesting mix because it's sort of IP but it's not really owned so a lot of the profits are going to charities and what have you but it's not the sort of thing where it's owned by a Disney or a Fox or anything like that but it's something that people recognise and understand and so if you are a creative in that industry you know for every show like the hamilton or six or these things or operation mincemeat that really do fly that just most of them don't and you can't keep putting five million eight million ten million dollars into things that fail and you'd rather put three million five million eight million dollars into something that even if it doesn't absolutely set the world alight is probably not going to lose you a huge amount of money so it feels like it's something that's good that's here to stay this thing because because of the high operating costs of putting on a play yeah it's a gamble it's a real gamble and actually the sort of it's interesting thinking who backs theatre other than the studios obviously the studios for a long time actually felt that that theatre i was talking to one producer this week who said they thought that the theatre was a place of skullduggery and that they were always going to kind of rip you off and so they wanted people to share the risk even on their own properties yeah now they feel like oh some of these things are such bankers we're going to take all the risk but it's interesting like who has backed theatre in london in the west end all the different bits of money has blown through london and you've had Middle Eastern money and Russian money and Chinese money, you know.

14:49But actually, in a funny kind of way, the people who come back and back are people who like gambling. Yeah, yeah. They are people who like betting on stuff. Yeah. Because you've got to like losing. Yeah. You've got to be comfortable with losing. You have to a bit like show business, but also like a bet. And you should. And actually, people, if you don't like show business, then you're going to just be angry that you lost money. Yeah. Because it's like, you know, people like watching racing. Yeah. And that's why they'll bet on it. sometimes people say people who are really angry in a divorce if they're really happy and they've got a huge settlement they love to spend it on a hopeless case yeah and you know something rather lovely about that that was always the wonderful thing about in excess when they got absolutely massive you know that story so in excess got like worldwide global huge success and their accountant said to them look you can literally just throw away a million quid because it's not going to cost you anything so you can just take a punt so they put it all into like a little australian movie which turned out to be crocodile dundee so they've suddenly kind of turned that into a hundred million i know exactly yeah well it's and and there are some vanity projects the london theater is thriving there's all sorts of different things on and you don't have to be seeing things in the west end but it's pretty great especially after covid there's very few sectors that are like no we're better than ever and we're doing we're doing fantastically and you also want these shows to be touring because you've got these incredible regional theaters a lot of which are you know under threat and some of which have closed down that hasn't come back in the uk whereas in the US it has.

16:10Yes, absolutely. So it's lovely if you do have some shows that you know are going to be surefire hits that can fill out those places for two, three weeks at a time. You know, listen, there is the worry of it becoming a bit of a monoculture but, you know, I sort of understand why. You always get this thing in any creative arts when people go, oh, why don't you take more risks? Just take more risks. You think, well, sorry, a risk with what? With your money? Yes. You want them to take a risk with your money because we'll do that. If it's your$8 million, you find yourself less creatively inclined to take a risk, I think.

16:39than if it's someone else's. And there are lots of risky plays opening all the time that are, you know, odd and unusual and amazing and are doing really well. They don't have to be in the West End. Obviously, the sort of dream of lots of theatre producers is that this weird kind of hopeless case suddenly becomes a hit, which does happen with lots of different sort of plays or musicals. I mean, Operation Mincemeat would be a perfect example. I think that and Six, they both started at the Edinburgh Festival. We went to see the Edinburgh Festival this year at a show called Weir by Natalie Padamedes.

17:05And you just think, well, I could see that running forever and ever and ever in a West End theatre because it's so brilliant. There's no one who wouldn't enjoy that show. It's already there. It's already written. You can see the audience reaction to it. So, you know, these shows can come from somewhere. But I think it's hard if you are just straight off sitting at home around a piano with a friend thinking, we're going to write a musical about Dr. Barnardo. It's quite hard. The route to market is quite hard there. But if you do, if you take it through Rep and you take it through Edinburgh and things like that, then the market is there.

17:33I sort of feel like it's a positive story. It's interesting because those London versions of those shows are the ones they tour because for obvious reasons, as I say, if it costs five times as much to do it on Broadway. So people are trying things out in London and then they're taking those versions of the shows on the road all over the world, everywhere, China, South Korea. These places are huge for touring. So it's not just the places you'd think. It's much further afield and they're very, very successful. But yeah, it's lovely that the West End is booming at the moment. The one thing I would say, Legrim, come on, guys.

18:03You come back to your bugbear. But it's outrageous. it's genuinely outrageous you're paying 150 quid for a ticket and you're literally going to get deep vein thrombosis and I always sit on an aisle anyway so I don't want to sit in front of anyone because people just tut where can you sit without just having to apologise for yourself right on the very very very end of any periphery ones any particular row but yeah leg room sort it out yeah okay can we do that next week yes we're just no we're just going to do a whole episode just on leg room that's why I like TV in my house I have the legroom that I like save it for next week Richard in front of that I have not put another sofa in front of my sofa well we'll discuss that in much much more detail on a few later episodes so just to give a few recommendations so we talked about touring Heathers is touring at the moment if that's anywhere near you absolutely go see it Hairspray Hairspray is touring my favourite musical of all time Sixth the musical I think is on tour it's in Milton Keynes in September I think and that is a wonderful piece of work it's fantastic yeah it's feel good it makes you think it's got great tunes um so i'd really recommend that but uh and if i'm in front of you i promise i'll be on the aisle what would you turn into a uh a musical what hasn't been done what would i turn into um i think you've just got to do all i mean but how funny how much was i laughing at the 39 steps i know that's a book but it was it you can turn i don't say anything can be anything because you just sound like people who work at marvel and just like just do anything but i i mean i actually yes a marvel musical a really but i like these parody ones yeah kind of just use like titanic titanic you've got to go quite close to the wind it can be it'll be quite interesting to see how that one pans out i'll like to see it i haven't seen this um parody silence of the lambs one but i would like to see it should we have a break before we talk about the emmys let's do that eczema isn't always obvious but it's real and so is the relief from ebglis after an initial dosing phase about four in ten people taking ebglis achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks.

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21:50Welcome back, everybody. Now, it was the Emmys on Sunday evening slash Monday morning, depending where you are. There's one story I really want to talk about. Well, I know. I can imagine we want to talk about the same thing. But yes, the big winners were, I mean, these things are largely very predictable. And we'll talk a little bit about why that is. But the big winners were Shogun, The Bear, Hax, and Baby Reindeer. But I have to say a special, so happy that Will Smith ran for Outstanding Writing for a Drama Series for Slow Horses. Isn't that wonderful? Yes. And who, on receiving his awards, said the funniest thing said at the Emmys.

22:25I know that's not a tough field, came up and said, sorry, relax, despite my name, I come in peace. When he went up to the stage. Will is absolutely brilliant, has put his absolute heart and soul into that show. And it really caught people's imagination. Sometimes it takes a while and the third season of something. And it's hard when you're coming from one of the smaller streamers in that case, Apple. And it just caught fire. And I'm so pleased because he is genuinely the nicest person you could possibly meet in the world. I think he's the second nicest person. because the nicest person you can meet is his brother, Ollie Smith, the wine expert, who is unbelievably nice.

22:59I refuse to imagine that someone exists who is nicer than Ollie Smith, so I'm afraid. Which Smith? Let's put them together in a new TV format. That's a really good idea. Yeah, I know. Smith bros. No, that was a fantastic one. There were a few British women. Alan Cumming won as best host for The Traitors. The Traitors did very well. The Traitors won. Michaela Cole won for a guest star thing on Mr. and Mrs. Smith as well. And Hamish Hamilton won for directing the Oscars. the Oscars won two Emmys. It's ridiculous. What's that about? I know. Yeah. There's a lot of Emmys. When you look at all the different Emmys, there's a lot of them.

23:31And by the way, they had the creative arts ones the week before, which again, Shogun did amazingly on. And it's quite interesting when you look at all these things is that one of the characteristics of Emmy voting is that it's quite herd-like. Yeah. It is super predictable. There's a couple of upsets in this which we'll talk about. But even though the individual categories have voted for, their form of voting is that actors vote for actors and makeup artists vote for makeup artists and things like that. In the end, everyone can vote for the overarching things like best comedy or best drama or whatever.

24:02But it's amazing how these things got locked on and you have this idea, oh, it's going to be Shogun's year. And then everyone sort of just falls in and votes for those things. But also, if a show like Shogun votes for best drama, there will definitely be a best actor nomination, best actress nomination, best supporting. And you just think, there's lots of telly out there with amazing performances in, but you literally, they come as a package almost. So if you're nominated for Best Comedy or Best Drama, then you are nominated in all those categories as well. Yeah, there's a slipstream that you get in on.

24:28And they also love to nominate things that they then love to nominate again and again and again. And if you can't get in on that, which is why it's great that Slow Horses broke through with this season. But there are things like, you know, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver has never not won. They might as well retire at the award because it just wins it every single possible. He's like the Anton Deck at the NTA Awards of the Emmys. It's that level of, yeah. there is an art to submitting and i think this is going to get onto the subject that we both like to speak about you're allowed to put yourself into and they don't say well you're obviously not a comedy yeah you can guess what this is for example you're obviously not a comedy or you're obviously a lead actress you're not why are you being nominated and supporting you can choose where you get nominated now the bear is what people always say i mean they were making jokes it was presented by eugene and dan levy and they were making jokes about the bear not being comedy on stage, which I know that, you know, there's a sort of roasting element to all these things, but there's something that it's sort of reached slightly critical mass.

25:28In the end, it didn't win Best Comedy. That was won by Hacks. Which is a comedy. Which is a comedy. And which is, in a funny kind of way, about how comedy is slightly undervalued in our world. Yes. So the bare people have said for a long time, I don't really understand. This isn't a comedy. And the creators have always said, oh, yeah, well, you know, it's about how people use humour to respond to really terrible situations in life. No, it isn't. I wonder whether when we come to write, when we come to read the oral history of the period or whatever, that someone will say, yeah, an FX executive told us that we were submitting, whether or not we liked it, in the comedy category because Succession dominated the drama.

26:05Yeah, so we weren't going to win that. And Succession was untakeable. Yeah. And once Succession, you know, as I say, once they're nominating, they're nominating you. By the way, Succession was actually brilliant. And also funny. And it's a comedy as well. Actually funny. It was comedy and a drama. it did everything it was it was all the threat um but they but they felt that that category was untakeable and you have noticed to see a lot of writers i have talked to a lot of comedy writers who have a number of views about that show being nominated in the comedy category because they feel like this is taking an award from comedy if you look at what the some of the stars of and the producers of abbott elementary have said they're not thrilled that the bear which they think and i think actually is a drama is taking a comedy prize because there aren't that many there's always a that i'm talking about i mean we're talking a lot about snobbish this week this week but there is a massive snobbishness about comedy and the prestige award is the drama award um and comedy is just this thing that's like yeah you know oh that's easy comedy this is just jokes which i don't agree with and i think that's it that's been that's been pretty hard for a lot of people in that category so it's nominated for that it's won it before it didn't win this year as a hack Jeremy Allen White won best comedy actor right yes okay now so the bear it's not darkly comic right it is not comic at all and he's brilliant this is no shade on him it's a brilliant show it's not up to him probably it's amazing but what it is is incredibly traumatic as a show and it's not it's so traumatic it's funny or it's traumatic because we're making some ironic point which actually shows that we understand the world and we're shining a light in it which makes it comic it is just traumatic and a brilliant drama and he is absolutely brilliant in it.

27:43He has not done a single joke in any season of that show and yet he's just won Best Comedy Actor. And the thing is, as you say, the people who vote for these things, in the world, I don't know what number you put on this, maybe 30 % of people don't have a sense of humour. They just don't have it. And that's absolutely fine. This is a great take. But it's absolutely fine not to have a sense of humour. Some people, you know, we all have different things. But that means that fully 30 % of the people voting in that category are looking down the whole thing and going, well, Abbott Elementary, no, I don't understand what they're, there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in that, and people not saying exactly what they mean, and looking down to Hacks and going, well, I saw it, but I thought it was a documentary about Hollywood, but then I saw something that never would have happened.