Is X Factor Back From The Dead?

0:01The Rest is Entertainment is presented by Octopus Energy. Now, traditionally, the entertainment gatekeepers had to find you before an audience ever could.

0:09Richard Osman:It's been the biggest change, really, I would say, in entertainment in the last five years or so. Just that generation who grew up making their own content on YouTube, on TikTok and things like that, suddenly finding themselves right at the heart of a culture. And they say no one had to commission it from them. We talked before about Cain Parsons. For Backrooms, he just made his incredible sort of YouTube series of shorts. And within a month, they'd gone so big that people were kind of battering down his door to direct a big movie version of it. And A24 eventually won and he created the Backrooms, which brought a huge audience online for that first weekend that was just a phenomenon.

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1:28Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment, questions and answers edition. I'm Marina Hyde.

1:34Richard Osman:And I'm Richard Osman. Hello Marina. Hello Richard, how are you? Yeah, very well. Hello listeners, how are you? Plenty of questions to answer, or we're going to start with an interesting one. And it's from Mona. This might be one of our shortest ever questions. Mona says, is X Factor Revival a bad idea? It's not even, is the X Factor Revival a bad idea? Is X Factor Revival a bad idea? Yeah, seven words. Okay, well, the reason we're talking about this is because this is a story that has appeared a lot over the last week, I have noticed. You will have noticed lots of stories about this. In fact, you might almost think this was a story that was happening.

2:11Let me get there. ITV cancelled X Factor in 2021 after, I think, 17 years. In terms of whether it's a bad idea, I don't know. First of all, you will have noticed lots of sub-stories to this. They've said Louis Walsh saying he would definitely come back on one condition that Sharon Osbourne was on. Then there's more stories driving on, like Maya Jama's been identified as the perfect presenter. She can bring a young audience.

2:36Richard Osman:That's clever. Maya Jama gets identified as the perfect presenter for everything. Yeah, exactly. Mainly because she is. And it's not happening, by the way. Can I just say, this is a story that's got a complete life of its own. By whom could such rumours be being stoked? I can't imagine. I simply cannot say. Who would make money from the S Factor? Who would, yeah, who's got two big formats, both of which are loving homages to earlier existing formats? No, I don't know. Who knows? It was made by Talkback Thames and obviously with Simon Cowell's show. I don't know where the rumours are coming from.

3:13I think it's pretty difficult to, first of all, it's very expensive. It used to cost like$2 million for an episode. I think even now you couldn't do it for about less than$1.5 million. So that means it would be costing what, you know, the really big shows like I'm a Celeb or whatever cost. The main problem, I think, is that there's a sort of, you know, the duty of care thing. The world has moved on since humiliating people in that way in those audition rounds was sort of acceptable. And even though there was some of it in Simon Cowell's Netflix thing to find the name of the Marxist revolutionary group.

3:49Richard Osman:December 10th. December 10th. It's quite hard. I mean, I actually think it's impossible to separate that format from the theatre of cruelty out of which it sort of sprung. So on the duty of care front, even if they've managed a way of kind of threading that needle, which maybe they would be able to do something, but it would make it more bland. I think it would still raise all those demons from the past, by the way, who haven't gone away. There are many, many contestants who are still saying that they were failed in a number of different ways by the programme. Some of them are organised into groups, blah, blah.

4:19So there are those kind of ongoing complaints. I don't think anymore that the music industry would help. One of the secrets of the old format was that the music industry used to help a lot.

4:30Richard Osman:Yes, an awful lot. They had their pipeline already and essentially those pipelines were fused together to cast the thing. Most of those people who turned up, who were really good, don't let's forget, had already been fanned by labels. Yeah, a lot of them. There were lots of newcomers, but a lot of them had been seeded. Yeah, there was a significant number had already been found and spotted and developed and maybe even trained to some degree by the labels. I don't think that they would help at all now because I think there are just so many different ways. You know, we can see people surf as far as the platforms and totally by social media platforms.

5:05Yeah, the world has changed. And I don't think, you know, it would be a lie. It can be a liability to be on something like this, which is just too risky. So I don't think they would help. so although you keep reading stories about this I do not believe that reality will be bent to this outcome and that they will bring back the x factor I definitely don't think ITV are thinking about it for one second but maybe at some point Netflix or Disney or someone with tons of money will revive it but as I say without that theater of cruelty it doesn't particularly work it's too bland as a format and if you do have it then I think it just becomes a liability it's like These people don't provide news programming for a reason.

5:45There are lots of things in television now that are just a liability. Like, you know, I don't do news. I don't do political programming. It's just a liability. This would be a liability and you'd be paying to put yourself at risk because you're dealing with lots of young people and it's a big hassle in lots and lots of different ways. There are other things that we're seeing. You know, we talked about the Mickey Mouse Club revival. We talked about that. And clearly Netflix in a very controlled way with Simon Cowell's last show did that. I don't think that, by the way, was some monster hit. And it didn't, you know, catch the world alight at all.

6:22Richard Osman:Which may, by the way, have some relation to why these rumours are surfacing. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, it's incredible when you think of what a behemoth X Factor was. It was super massive. And, you know, these things do decline. And that had really declined to the point where there's no return on investment for ITV. So financially, it doesn't work for them. In terms of kudos, it doesn't work for them because, as you say, I've become a slightly tainted brand. And in terms of production, it doesn't work for them because it has all the issues that you were talking about. Brands do not die. I mean, if I think about some of the early Endermal shows, Big Brother, Deal, I Know Deal, still going in different places because there's ways to reinvent them and things that we have happy memories of.

6:59Richard Osman:And, you know, a generation before suddenly going, oh, God, you remember the X Factor, how amazing that was. There are ways of reimagining it. the way you are not going to currently reimagine it is as a two million pounds an episode show on terrestrial television it's just that's that's not the world that we live in there isn't a channel who could afford it there isn't a channel who would want it and as you say there isn't in an industry that needs it in the way that it used to in not entirely unrelated questioning richard can i ask a question on behalf of isabella pennings who is talking about drag race saying why would the BBC axe Drag Race UK a seemingly very popular and cheap to produce show?

7:36Richard Osman:Yes, it is related in some ways. I mean, the key word in that question is seemingly. So seemingly very popular and cheap to produce show. And listen, we know the BBC is really cutting its cloth at the moment and getting rid of an awful lot of shows. And that's only just begun, I would say. You look at the things that we've talked before about Live at the Apollo Newsnight being turned into a chat show. So lots of older brands that are being put out to pasture. So Drag Race, it's certainly very, very noisy. It's certainly very, very, very loved by the people who love it. It's not huge. It's not insanely huge.

8:14Richard Osman:It really, really punches above its weight, Drag Race, because the people who like it, lots of big celebs like it and will appear on it. Obviously, it's huge worldwide, and you get to plug into that world as well. But yeah, it's the same answer as X Factor. It's the exact same answer, which is for the money that it costs, it does not deliver enough for the BBC. And for a BBC that was better funded five years ago, it definitely did deliver. It did that. But the number you have to hit keeps going up and up and up as the money goes down and down and down. And a number of shows have dipped underneath that.

8:53Richard Osman:and because Drag Race is owned by World of Wonder who've done such an extraordinary job with it worldwide and have monetized it everywhere but it's not a BBC Studios show so you don't even have that kind of economy of scale so it's just one of those things and we're going to see more and more and more of them where the economics of it five years ago worked the economics of it now don't work it's not exactly like the X Factor because I think the X Factor was declining as well and the world that it was representing was disappearing and that's not the case with Drag Race as a brand. It's not declining particularly and the world it's representing is not declining either.

9:29Richard Osman:It's just a situation where production costs when compared to ratings, it just, when you're sat in a meeting with a spreadsheet and you do have to sit in meetings with spreadsheets in television because it's a license fee payers money, it just, it doesn't work out anymore. The good news is Drag Race isn't going anywhere. We know that, that it's going to be on all sorts of different platforms for everyone internationally yeah and if we think x-factor is a big brand drag race i would i would say worldwide is an even bigger brand in terms of what it does in various territories so it's not going anywhere but you know the bbc as a home for it no longer makes economic sense i would say if it was super massive or super cheap it would just about make sense but unfortunately it just sits underneath that line it's a prosaic answer but it's going to be the answer to to lots of these things in the next three or four years, I suspect.

10:19Richard Osman:Should we do an entirely themed first half of the show and go on to Dan Babway's question? Thank you, Dan. Dan says, who will replace Monty Don on Gardner's World? Does anyone actually watch Gardner's World anymore? Yeah, Monty Don is the legendary, the iconic Monty Don is leaving Gardner's World. In terms of who will replace, I don't know. I noticed Jeremy Clarkson. If you want to know how much people actually care about this, Jeremy Clarkson did his entire Sunday Times column this week and he's not one for a subject that people aren't interested in. He actually, by the end, was pushing someone called Chloe from Blooms and Greens, who's got an Instagram.

10:56She's very young. She really knows what she's talking about and saying, don't just get some kind of random person. But I don't think they will. It's really interesting. So just a quick look in terms of like, does anyone watch Garden as well? Yeah. Yeah, they do. Okay. I can give you some numbers from very recently. first of all it's got 75 % name recognition amongst the British who know what it is amongst the British public which is that's the most recent YouGov polling that is absolutely massive often it's the second most popular show on BBC Two on its night usually after Richard Olsen's No

11:28Richard Osman:it beats us It beats you Oh my god absolutely on a Friday we are not Yeah on a Friday Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday House of Games is always the biggest show on BBC Two on Monday it's only Connect on Friday it's Gardeners World Well Okay, last Friday, the top show of the day, and I'm giving you the numbers so that you can actually think about the ratings. This is the overnight, so certain things consolidate, etc. But the top show of the day was BBC London News with 2.8 million viewers. That's not just London News, that's all of the regional news is combined. This is up against Would I Lie to You, that Gardner's World is.

12:05Now, Would I Lie to You got 1.4 million viewers and a 15 % share. Think how big Would I Lie to You is. Gardeners World got over a million and an 11 % share. Often it changes seasonally because there were times in January where we're like, okay, maybe I don't need to tune in this week as I look out a window at my weakness. But there are certain shows that lots of people who watch this show that we're on right now probably don't realise are absolutely massive. And I'm talking about things like Countryfile, Antiques Roadshow. These shows are absolutely huge.

12:37Richard Osman:Antiques Roadshow is still just massive. It's absolutely massive. And people just think, who on earth would watch that? Again, just because you don't watch it, it doesn't mean it isn't just doing unbelievable numbers, much bigger numbers than any hot show on Netflix that supposedly everyone is talking about. Much, much bigger numbers. And listen, if we want a seemingly very popular and cheap to produce show, that is Gardner's world. And that's why that's still on. But yeah, it does really, really big numbers. And this is not expensive. And the people who watch it love it. And those are the things that the BBC are going to have to keep doing.

13:10Richard Osman:It's interesting the question of who replaces him. We talked about Grand Tour last week and how they, you know, this world of do YouTubers work on TV and what Grand Tour have done is taken YouTubers who really know what they're talking about and putting them on TV. And there is a generation now of online gardeners, if you know what I mean. Gardeners who then go online. They're not gardening online. It sounds like an euphemism, doesn't it? It's a real online gardener, that guy. and there will be someone in that world who already has a following but crucially knows what they are talking about and has had five years of broadcasting experience because they've done their own stuff and you'll put that person on and they'll do an amazing job I suspect but yeah it's it's it's it's a really great brand for the BBC because don't forget you know there's all sorts of magazine spin-offs and you know live spin-offs and stuff like that so it's it's a proper proper proper money spinner and Monty Don is one of those people who doesn't put himself out there much but is so beloved yeah in Britain he's just one of those guys who absolutely has a has a love in the nation which is much higher than his profile sometimes a fantastic person okay shall we go to a break now yeah it was a real branded first half wasn't it yeah thanks everyone

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15:00Richard Osman:Because a lot of the British novelists in the 80s, Martin Amis, Julian Barnes, Ian McEwan, they all used to sort of go and have lunch and have dinner. And you could just tell, you know, they would talk about stuff and they would make each other's work much better. And that's the benefit of being in a group, being in a club. It becomes more than the sum of its parts. Clubs really do have benefits, like Club Lloyds, an elevated everyday bank account with exclusive benefits, plus a lifestyle perk like cinema tickets. And you get no fees on debit card spending and withdrawals abroad, an exclusive mortgage rate discount, interest on your balance.

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16:01welcome back everybody now peter pence has a question richard that you must answer he says that I must answer oh yeah it's mandatory well it's not like you to misunderstand a format however I recently read Careless People by Sarah Wynne-Williams says Peter which has an extra flap on the front cover that is covered in book review blurbs before you even reach the title page it got me wondering do these quote fill covers actually help sell books or do they just clutter the design

16:30Richard Osman:oh god there is a lot Peter I'd like to talk about there firstly this extra flap thing is a huge deal you can go into any bookshop any publisher they're obsessed with do we have a double flap cover do we have sprayed edge like coloured pages can we have a little ribbon like all these things very very very costly they certainly they send a message to the book trade that this is this is a huge book for us that extra flap thing I can't bear it they do it in America I hate it all the time and it's just it's messy I hate it when they used to do it on a wraparound they call it on newspapers papers yeah someone's paid for it it's like you feel really yeah I feel irrationally annoyed like someone's put a U2 album on my iTunes exactly give me a book with a front cover that I can turn to the front first page of and start reading I don't need to be fiddling about it's like it's like like I'm opening a slinky or something so anyway my publisher's always obsessed with these double flap things and I've said time and again do I've said I stand there I say do not double flap me don't you dare if you're even thinking of double flapping me you better stop if you dream about double flapping me you better wake up and apologise I think they did double flap me on the last one I could be wrong about that in America they do it all the time America is how they do you can't legislate for the Americans you can't legislate for the Americans now Sarah Wynne Williams this book Careless People can we as a sidebar just continue to say that she is not allowed to do any publicity she will go to book festivals this is about her time working He's a Facebook executive.

18:02Sorry if you did. And it's extremely revelatory about the internal culture of the company.

18:07Richard Osman:Yeah. And they have such legal constraints on her and what she's allowed to say and how she's allowed to promote this book. Essentially, she is not allowed to promote this book at all. So we will do this for her. It's an absolutely terrific book. It's fascinating. If you care at all about the future of democracy, media, it's definitely humanity. It's definitely, definitely, definitely worth reading. And that's something that she's not allowed to say. So we'll say it for her. now this double flap thing may well be because of that because you know the publishers are aware that sarah winn williams can't go on this morning and talk about the book she can't go on the today program and talk about it even though you know she'd be an amazing booking and all of those so they want to sort of show um the reaction to this book so but it happens a lot on lots of like my paperbacks you'll have all the reviews of the hardback will be on the paperback yeah so when the hardback comes out you can't really put reviews on it because the reviews come too late.

19:00Richard Osman:So they'll have all of these reviews. I never see my reviews, by the way. I'll say don't show me the reviews. The first time I ever see my reviews is when I open the paperback of my book and then obviously they've selected all the nice ones. So I only ever see nice reviews. So they'll do that. So firstly, the double flap thing is assigned to booksellers that this is a book we take seriously and we're spending a lot of money on because it costs an awful lot more money to do a special either sprayed edge or double flapped book. So it costs an awful lot of money. Can't you just tell them? Can't you just tell the public?

19:29Can't you send them an email? Like many things, it could be done in an email. We are spending a lot of money on this book. Yes, I suppose so. But we're not going to piss off all the people who have to pick it up by covering it in this outside stuff.

19:38Richard Osman:Yes, in this ridiculous outside stuff. I might suggest it to them. But it's a signifier, I would say, of something. Does it work? Well, I mean, the idea of blurbs in general. I think about this all the time. Do blurbs sell books? They tell you they do, but I don't know. I mean, with careless people, because it did pretty well in hardback and now what they really want is a huge paperback. And I guess if you're sort of flicking it open and there's like 10 unbelievable reviews, everyone agreeing, saying this is amazing. And it's hugely important. I actually think for that book, I always feel like, what, I'm reading a book about Facebook.

20:11I'm sorry, that might be your original reaction. And I think that for this book, for all the reasons we've said, so let's take her out of the equation for a second. Blurbs in general, thoughts?

20:20Richard Osman:Yes, blurbs in general. If you are a new author, so before a book comes out, the one way you can get blurbs and hardbacks won't be from the newspapers and from reviews, but it will be, people say, oh, why do they have celebrities or other authors giving blurbs? And that's because those are the people it gets sent to six months before it comes out to try and get a blurb. And if you're a new author, yeah, listen, if Mick Herron has read your book and loves it, and Mick Herron says this is an amazing spy novel on the front cover of your novel, that's helpful. What's on the front of We Chase Shadows?

20:52Richard Osman:So We Chase Shadows is... I can't remember. I saw it. It's even on the proof, right? uh it's it's a really funnily enough when when they do uh when they do original mock-ups of covers it'll often say incredible quote here xxx just where it is but we chase shadows so richard bravery who designed it's my favorite of all my front covers yeah me too and it's a really lovely kind of sun and a cat and i love the font i love i love the whole thing and richard and myself spent so long trying to work out the exact angle of the airplane the exact angle of the cat's head and all of this stuff. It's got a real Miami Vice feel in the colours.

21:25You know I love that aesthetic so much.