Kate conspiracies & the new James Bond

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0:40Get started today at linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply. I'm NFL linebacker TJ Watt, and this is my personal best. YPB by Abercrombie is the activewear I'm always wearing. That's why I reached out to co-design their latest drop. I work with designers to create high-performance activewear that holds up to my toughest workouts. shop YPB by Abercrombie in-store online and in the app because your personal best is greater than anything hello and welcome to another edition of the rest is entertainment with me Marina Hyde and me Richard Osmond hi Marina how are you we're apart for the first time ever we're apart I'm I'm filming House of Games, or I was filming House of Games yesterday.

1:28So as YouTube viewers will be able to see, I'm in gritty Manchester with a brick wall behind me. It's very urban here. It's not our preference to be a part, but we're making it work and we're very happy to do so. I like that you say we're making it work. We haven't actually started yet. It might be a disaster. I mean, thus far, it's going brilliantly. Yeah, I've heard you. I mean, what more do you want? I think it's working. I think it's working. Now, what are we going to talk about? I am hearing every second word you're saying to me, which is absolutely perfect. What are we talking about today?

1:57Sort of like the Glastonbury headliners of dreams. We're talking about Kate Middleton, Donald Trump and James Bond, I think. We are going to start by talking about Kate, the Princess of Wales, Kate Middleton, the various names, who on Friday evening, after an absolute frenzy of speculation on social media, but I have to say also traditional media, announced that she was receiving preventative chemotherapy for cancer. I think we should talk about how both the traditional media, the legacy media, in many cases the newspapers have covered this, and also how social media has covered it. I think there's rather less clear blue water between the two.

2:38So essentially the newspapers are coming out saying it's unbelievable how Kate's been treated on social media. We're with you, ma 'am. We're doing things the right way. Is that how you're reading it? That has certainly been the case. But actually, before this kind of pretty bombshell announcement on Friday evening, don't let's forget that she had gone into hospital for two weeks and Kensington Palace had said she won't be back until after Easter. She doesn't want to talk about it, but she's going to stay in hospital for two weeks. So whatever even the original health issue was, was significant and serious enough.

3:10But people have got themselves into a complete frenzy. There were masses of articles published every day. even if you're looking at, say, one title, if you're looking at Mail Online and the Daily Mail, and one of the things that they do, one of those old newspaper tricks is if you feel like you can't quite say the things yourself that you see are being said on social media, you say there's a huge social media storm or American journalists are doing this or that. And what you're doing is kind of pointing in the direction of it. But really, what I think always comes across is their kind of annoyance that they weren't able to go further and write more speculation of their own.

3:44This is the traditional media in many cases, in many cases, the tabloids, but also other newspapers too. And you get these sort of stories about complaints about the palace's competence and comms strategy. There's a sort of rule in politics. It's never the comms. If you're talking about the comms, you're not really talking about it. You fail to understand the issue. And people saying, but they haven't given enough information. They've given you all the information that she wanted to give you. And because that wasn't enough, and because you're annoyed about it, and you feel like you're owed more, these are the techniques of titles who want to be able to report more or want to be able to speculate more.

4:16And they push the situation to such a point that they feed into the social media speculation. Now, this is not, by the way, to make this a sort of legacy media issue. It is a social media issue too. Can I ask you a question about legacy media? When you say they're frustrated that they can't say more, is the frustration that they have information they're not allowed to print and they want to? Or is the frustration even more frustrating for them, they simply don't know what the story is, which is the worst thing if you're a journalist. It's a bit of both. They know some of the story and they probably, and they do know aspects of the story that aren't reported.

4:54And in many cases, they may have leads on what they think might be the case. But mainly what they want to do is not hugely distinguishable from what people on social media want to do, which is get involved in the drama, drive the drama, feel part of it really. If you look at someone, I'm just going to look at the mail because it's a sort of useful title because it probably produces the most coverage of it because its online offering is so huge. So you have someone like the columnist, someone like Sarah Vine, who really less than a week ago or a bit more than a week ago was banging on about the Mother's Day photograph saying, you know, why wasn't the ring on?

5:28The reason for that doesn't bear thinking about. I'll see it bears writing about, does it? Having said all that, she was saying there's only one way to put an end to it, come clean about what's really going on or risk drowning in a quagmire of their own making. Says the quagmire. Voice of the quagmire. And then obviously the Princess of Wales feels pushed into, and we'll deal with the sort of that idea of bullying the royal family to do what you want in a bit, but she feels pushed into saying something which she has been with unquestionably by the situation. I'm sure she would have far rather said absolutely nothing.

6:00And then Sarah Ravine has actually apologised to some extent in a column, but there are plenty of other male columnists who are saying, why can't we hear how, you know, Amanda Patel was saying, why can't we hear how Kate is getting on? She cares too much. She cares too much. That's the problem. She cares too much. After the announcement said, how dreadful to think that even as she was undergoing chemotherapy, the online haters persisted in taunting her by peddling their loathsome conspiracy theories. No wonder she and William circled the wagons around their young family. You've got a situation that to me in lots of ways reminds me of Diana and stories about Diana.

6:37But the Diana death timing for traditional media where everyone got their news from newspapers then, there wasn't a sort of online offering where you were going to get the news as it was happening. You could see it on television as the stories break through the night that she'd been involved in a car crash and eventually that she hadn't survived it. But the timing of it meant that the Sunday newspapers came out with the columns that were originally going to be written and everybody wrote about Princess Diana at the time. And there were lots of the sort of, you know, female Sunday columnists who'd given her a real pasting.

7:08And because of the print times, these things had already gone to press and had been distributed and were bought on the morning containing these kind of columns that were really vicious. Now you can stop that and you can pull it. You can't if the paper's gone to press. The thing in print will always have the thing in print if this has happened afterwards. But she did that speech, Kate, on the bench at 6pm. So you're able to rewrite anything that's going in the paper for the next morning. But otherwise, you could have been pretty sure that things which would have appeared would again have been critical of her.

7:38So it reminds me of that. Also, you have to think that I think what's quite notable about this is that people who would consider themselves the good guys, you're kind of Stephen Colbert in the US who presents The Late Show, you know, Blake Lively, lots of people who think they're the good guys have jumped on this like, where is Kate bandwagon and became part of the social media frenzy and speculation. So I think there was a lot of deleting of tweets. And there is, have you ever heard that expression? No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible. Everyone thinks it wasn't them. Well, I always think opinions are like litter, aren't they?

8:13You think, well, my one little sweet wrapper doesn't matter. And then suddenly you turn around, there's a huge pile of trash behind you. And you think, well, you're equally culpable as everybody else. Yeah, there used to be a sign on the German motorways that would say, or not on German motorways, on German roads that said, you're not stuck in traffic, you are traffic. Because people, when they're in their car, say, oh, I'm stuck in traffic. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you know. And I realised that this podcast in itself is talking about the issue. So you're all part of it and it's all, every time I write about...

8:41I think, though, that it's okay for us to have an opinion, you and me. It's just everyone else I'm getting tired of. But that's the problem with opinions, isn't it? Everyone enjoys their own. It's like karaoke, isn't it? It's always fun to do your bit, but, you know, you don't want to hear other people. Yes, you're quite right. But I do think that it does say something about the nature of the technology. It's so overwhelming and the feeling of being in on the joke to be part of the frenzy of the drama is so compelling and addictive that people have lost all sight of reason and certainly of their humanity because the thing we did know is that she had been in hospital for two weeks, which is really long to be in hospital for.

9:17And we're told that she wasn't going to come back until after Easter. So it's really reasonable to assume that this person has had serious surgery whatever you think and that conspiracist mindset set in completely and it was newspaper columns were written in a conspiracist mindset all sorts of people who this is such a sort of patronizing phrase isn't it should know better but really should know better speculated in a way that was pure conspiracism yeah and listen everyone's got a slightly different ingredient but it's all going into the same soup is the truth you know everyone's coming from different angles everyone's got different reasons for doing it some people are being paid to do it some people are doing it because they've got nothing else to say that day.

9:56But it all goes to the same place. You know, whenever you watch someone on TV getting a hard time, you'll get a thousand people saying exactly the same thing. And that's the problem because all of those thousand people are just single individuals going, oh, I'm annoyed with this woman I've just seen on TV. So they'll send out a tweet. And then you go, okay, now we've got a thousand of these because it's, you know, snowflake and an avalanche is the perfect metaphor for it. But we've all become, you know, if you think back to Blair's government and Alistair Campbell and that idea of instant rebuttal and that idea of you get your spin in immediately you have to always have the counter narrative immediately and now everybody does that every single human being is a spin doctor every single person is an instant rebuttal unit every single person is trying to spin their version of a story and they're all doing it as individuals but we live in a culture and all of those opinions all swirling around at the same time it's really tiring you can't hear individual voices and you have to remember that when there's a human being at the heart of it then that person is hearing it all too my view is this you should be allowed by law five opinions a year okay so publicly you can state five opinions so think very very very carefully if you want to have an opinion about the thing that's just happened because you're going to have five.

11:18Everyone's got five. So there's still loads of opinions, plenty of stuff going on. And obviously, if something gets a lot of opinions, we're like, oh, this is a big story because a lot of people are using one of their opinions today. If we're only allowed five, then think about the things that would be very important to you. But most people would have used them all by January the 3rd. Well, we wouldn't have much of a podcast, Richard, and I certainly wouldn't be a newspaper opinion columnist. Once again, I think we're immune. Oh, right, I see. Yes, it's the other people. But that's the problem, isn't it?

11:46That's the problem is we all have the right to think whatever we want. We all have the right to say whatever we want. And everyone doing it at the same time. The problem now is we get to hear so many more opinions than we used to. We used to be able to block out. We used to be able to absolutely pick and choose the opinions that we were exposed to. And now we hear everything all the time. If you spend any time on Twitter or anything like that, the stuff that you see is absolutely mind-blowing. And it's very easy to get down about that. But I think one of the things you have to remember is almost every single person in the country is not giving their opinion.

12:23Almost every single person in the country is leaving things while alone. Almost every single person in the country is giving Kate her privacy. But the only people we're talking about, we live in a volumocracy, don't we? and the only people we're talking about are thinking about the people who are giving their opinions so I think sometimes some perspective and remember that almost everyone is not talking about it my other theory is if you've been a sports fan all your life you're completely used to it this is nothing new to you the whole point of sport is to give you something to talk nonsense about all day to all of your friends I mean that's all it is talk about players to talk about owners to talk about teams to talk about who's going to win who's not going to win you know what most of what you're hearing is absolute nonsense.

13:02You know that everybody is insanely biased towards their team. So that's always been sports discourse. And now we have that for absolutely everything in our culture. And I think as a sports fan, you can sort of laugh it off a little bit. But I think if you haven't followed, if you're not a West Ham fan or something, then all this stuff must come as something of a shock. They've always been in the vanguard of that. Yeah. But one thing I do think is quite interesting is that she has been bullied into doing this. She has been bullied by people into doing this. But it does remind me, even before we had this age of social media, that is what happened with the Queen after the death of Diana.

13:39Again, there were all these headlines, show us you care, all of these sort of things. They wanted the Queen to leave Balmoral and come to London to, what, console them about the death of a woman that they didn't know and to leave that woman's two children in order to do that. People are deranged and they have perhaps always been deranged. And it's the need in those situations. A lot of those people, by the way, bought all the newspapers and bought them up voraciously that printed the most intrusive paparazzi pictures of Princess Diana during her life. And they were the market. And they then, rather as they do now, could say, well, you know, I wasn't part of all that speculation last couple of weeks about Kate.

14:20It's a very similar thing. But everybody needs a villain. And the papers also need another villain. This time they've said it's social media or the American press or whatever it may be. Back then, I remember talking to people at The Sun and they said, you couldn't believe the relief when it was discovered that the driver's blood alcohol level was over the limit because then it was his fault. They were off the hook. Yeah, the relief was apparently, it was almost a sort of physical sensation. People could feel it sort of sweeping through the newsrooms. And I do sometimes feel that's the case with social media.

14:52there is not as much clear blue water between what if you're publishing 10 20 sometimes 30 online articles a day about this situation then are you really so different not that many people tweet 30 times a day even if they're saying something dreadful or whatever and they're and also they're irrelevant they're just ordinary people you should have a better responsibility and you also know that people are prone in our country but I suppose that's the market to these kind of weird hysterias about the royal family and as you say we live in a kind of siloed culture or in a polarised culture. And there are a lot of people who are like either their team Harry and Meghan or their team William and Kate.

15:27And it has become to some extent like a sort of sport thing. And so you know what you're feeding into when you publish all that stuff. And the one thing that you can be absolutely sure of on all sides is that nobody thought her feelings mattered. She said she didn't want to discuss it. And that was the least relevant possible thing. Also, speaking of being taken away from your children as the Queen was taken away from William and Harry in order to sort of address the nation. They didn't mind what her children thought or saw either. And people should just be realistic about this. They fed into this.

16:00They don't imagine it's a real human and they really don't care what her feelings are at the start of it. And you can say, well, I had no idea. I didn't realise it was a serious medical issue. Didn't you? Because you've been in the hospital for two weeks. So why didn't you? What's wrong with you? Marina, what's the process? What are the back channels here when you talk about the media forcing the Queen to come back from Balmoral and talk about the media forcing Kate to make this announcement and you know so many stories over the years Stephen Gately when he was when he came out he was forced to do that who speaks to who in that situation is there a physical force at play?

16:33In the case of the royal correspondence and the newspaper editors they always feel they are owed a certain amount from the royal family and they feel that they are owed it and if they don't get it then they will do something to say here we are and that's really why the sun published that um video last week where she'd gone to a farm shop catering and people say it wasn't her but this is all sort of complete genuine conspiracy nonsense but they they published that even though they were because they felt like you are not giving us enough information and it is a sort of thing to say you see what we can do we can do this every day if you don't tell us more.

17:11And that, I think, would probably have been a sign for the palace that the kind of British presses will hold the line, not that they necessarily do, was breaking down and they're going to have to do something about it. Right back when William, I think, was at, maybe at university, yeah, they were told that they would get a certain amount of pictures approved and, you know, you'd be able to have some access. They didn't feel they'd got enough access. And I think it was the News of the World at one point just thought, right, so they published some paparazzi pictures of him going to the supermarket or something to say, hi, we can do this all the time if you don't honour your half of the bargain.

17:44And they talk about it in a way that is totally transactional. And they expect, they say we are owed coverage. You're required to do a certain amount. And if you don't, then, oh, look what's happened. Social media will talk in this way, but it's not. What they believe is that there is a deal. They have a number of reporters on the Royal Beat. They get a lot of favourable coverage for turning up to the ribbon cuttings and the openings of this and that. And really what they say is that they are owed a certain amount of personal information in return for that. Well, the wrinkle in it is, is they sort of are owed it in that, you know, the royal family keeps its place by consent, the consent of the British public, and the media are a sort of filter through which we see that.

18:26So they have been in that dance for many, many years, haven't they? The media and the royal family, and both understand what they need from others. It's like if you're an F1 driver, you have to do your post-race interview, otherwise you don't get paid. You know, when you sign up, that's your contract. That's where your money comes from is the media. And so it's moments like this, I guess, when that dance sort of goes awry a little bit, when we really start noticing it, when one side tries to flex its muscles and the other side tries to flex its muscles back. Yes, everyone here is really asking who should control this relationship.

18:57The press want the royals to turn up on certain days and do the photographs they ask. They want to have back channels to all their private information. and it is part of their business plan. And the royal family obviously don't want that, particularly the younger members of it. And it's become very attritional. It's fascinating for us to talk about because it tells us a lot about power in our country. It tells us an awful lot about media in our country and what it does. But it's worth reflecting for everybody involved that it's just a series of human beings at the heart of it. Yes, and like a lot of conspiracies, it really hurts lots of human beings at the heart of it.

19:33That was fascinating, Marina. I absolutely loved listening to all of that. Shall we go to an advert? I think we should go to an advert now. This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold-out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org. Jack Daniels and Old No. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40 % alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee. The spirit of innovation is deeply ingrained in America, and Google is helping Americans innovate in ways both big and small.

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21:03welcome back now let's talk about another long-running british soap opera james bond and the uh the succession thereof it's been reported that uh aaron taylor johnson might be going to be our next james bond but it's uh this is another british sport it's the most it's been nearly 20 years since the last bond was announced it feels like every year it's always in the news. It feels like an incredible publicity machine for the Bond franchise, this idea of who's taking over. Nothing is as good as getting itself talked about as this franchise. It's unbelievable. I think Daniel Craig originally said in 2016, I'm not going to do it anymore.

21:42And in fact, he did actually go back and do more. But eight years of pure speculation the entire time. It's the mark of doing well in any form of British acting. You haven't done well in your show, even though like James Norton did brilliantly in like Happy Valley and all sorts of things. People are like, when someone says to you, now how about you're being the next James Bond? It's because for some reason we have to say to all our British actors, this could be you. What do you think about the chat? And they have to sit there in an interview and answer it. And there are so many. I'm trying to think of the people over the last few years.

22:13Idris Elba, who's now probably aged out because the speculation has gone on so long. I thought he'd have been great. Tom Hiddleston, James Norton, Regé-Jean Page, Chape Derissier. There are so many more of these people. That's just like scratching the surface of the names. They would all be great. That's the beauty. It's like having co-hosts on Have I Got News For You. It's a positive when someone loses their job and someone else takes it because you can take it into whole new worlds like Doctor Who as well. Suddenly it becomes a completely different show. I think James Norton would be a great James Bond or I think Idris would have been a great James Bond as well.

22:45But it just gets you talking about Bond and what it is and what it represents. and the bond of the books the fleming books is a is a very particular character but essentially over the years since the 60s bond has come to represent so many different things every time a new actor comes in it sort of represents where britain is as a culture uh and that's a i think that's a a great thing but it'd be a terrifying job to take it's the sort of job that it'd be nice to be like the england manager it'd be nice to be linked to it but you wouldn't want to do it I do think that yeah I do think that thing about it being a sort of bellwether there are certain things in British life that always used to be seen as a bellwether like if they were doing well and were good then in some ways we were good and things like the M &S underwear department like if it's if M &S is doing well everyone's like yeah no it's work otherwise it's like why is M &S very the Man United back four I'm not great currently so but things there's certain things like that that are regarded as like almost institutions in themselves and bond is definitely one of those i do think you're right that what what it means to be bond changes with the times i definitely thought with daniel craig the amount he talked about the toll of the role and how difficult it was being bond and having to get into shape and this was something about masculinity in this particular era that the difficulty of it that the trainers he had all his trainers would go on the interview circuit and say, yeah, I was able to add 10 inches to his thighs by this or that.

24:11I was thinking, gosh, this is getting quite hard for men out there, isn't it? There's something different about his particular thing. No one works as hard as me. And you thought, in the end, really, mate, you've sort of just got to have sex with some beautiful women in a nice hotel and drive a hot car. It's not agonies. I mean, I don't think it's a particularly agonizing role in lots of ways but there was a lot of angst that he brought to it so I would quite like the next person I don't want to say that they should be able to as Roger Moore does in Octopussy turn to a snake and say hiss off although I'd like it yes I'd like it that I mean he was a sensational Bond I mean I definitely think it's time for a fat Bond that would take a lot of pressure off uh off British men wouldn't it I feel for Daniel Craig it is it It is that thing from sort of when he took over, which is 2006, something like that, that a man suddenly had to be a certain thing.