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23:39you want to get involved with the Eli Roth business. He made Hostel 2, which actually made less money, but Eli Roth says Hostel 2 was the most pirated movie of all time. Somebody leaked a copy of it, and it was downloaded over a million times in the first day. He said two days after this film came out, you could go to any street market in Rio de Janeiro or Mexico City or Nanjing, and you could buy my movie for a dollar. He said it still made a load. But anyway, it's a huge business. horror. There's lots of money to be made in it. And Hollywood are starting to put lots of their money behind it.

24:15You look at Heretic with Hugh Grant, which, you know, award nominated, made a lot of money, substance, a lot of money. Eli Roth has always been quite interesting about the way he funds things. His first movie was entirely self-funded. And he has, we're all aware of Kickstarter. So we're all aware of what that is and Patreon and all these things. He's set up a company called the horror section and the horror section he said this is where all my ip is going to live it's where my movies are going to live there'll be comics there'll be live events everything horror based there will be podcasts exactly uh the rest is cabin fever so he set this thing up uh the horror section and he's done a kickstarter to put some money it's actually a site called republic isn't it a site called republic yeah i use the word kickstarter as as the thing that we understand the mover meaning the vacuum cleaner but it's actually yeah but it's crowdfunding.

25:05It's a crowdfunding thing on The Republic. He wants to raise five million dollars and in return for that you actually own a piece of his company. You become what every executive producer in the world is which you're somebody who puts money into something and share in the upside of a movie. You become a part owner of the IP of the character which by the way in horror means a lot because if you look at how many iterations there are of each successful franchise actually owning a bit of the IP and owning the I think is it It's coming very soon, the next Final Destination, which is, I think, the sixth of that.

25:38And as I say, there's something like, I think there's, I want to say, 30-plus horror movies slated for theatrical release this year, maybe even more, and Final Destination is one. And they've just had another one, The Clown in the Corn. Clown in the Corn. Oh, my God, that's the scariest title of all time. That cost less than a million. First weekend out, 3.9 million. It's a good business, I would say. And listen, who knows if this thing will work. But it's a new way of doing things. And Eli Roth has understood, in the same way when we talked about biblical epics and using the Christian church money to make movies and make TV shows, he has understood this is an incredibly engaged audience who wants...

26:16Horror fans are like the second most engaged and obsessive community outside of evangelical Christians. Which is weird, right? It's a hard take. Listen, I think it's a great take. But you can print that. Do you know what? Two sides of the same coin, isn't it? Well now. Well now. Good and evil, but which is which? So you can yourself invest in the horror section. There's 42 days left on this thing. He's trying to raise 5 million. I think they've got 2.8 million so far. Something like 1 ,700 people have already put in. Yeah. It feels, it seems very open. It seems very transparent. A lot of people, Robert Rodriguez, who did Dawn of the Dead and films like that, he's doing a similar thing, but you own the IP in a particular project.

26:55But this Eli Roth thing is the horror section. You will own a part of that company, a part of the upside. You own parts of directing fees that he would get, exec producer fees that he would get. You get some fun perks. He's bundling the stuff he already owns into the company. So it will own the IP to Hostel and to Cabin Fever and these things that can obviously be kind of spun off into extra movies, into games, into all sorts of things. The perks are amazing. Normally, if you like crowdfund a book or something and you get your name in the back of the book, that's nice. There's lots of smaller perks.

27:26The best perk is that this will cost you a million dollars. if you put in a million dollars, which feels to me like that's old school Hollywood, but anyway, I think this is just a headline thing to get people interested. For a million dollars, he said, he's going to kill you on screen. And he said, I will give you a death that for the rest of your life, everyone will be like, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen. Wow. A million dollars to have the most disgusting death in horror history. The one thing he said, he said most people want their head chopped off so that they can keep the false head afterwards and put it on their desk.

28:01That's lovely. Isn't that nice? That is a lovely touch. And lovely, lovely little things. If you put in$666, you put in 666, you get your share certificate and it's got a bloody handprint on it. Real blood. Yeah. Real handprint. Because again, rather like Angel Studios funding sort of Christian movies or whatever, the fan base is very engaged. You know, they say they know what the fans want. And I think, you know, they're right. As we keep saying, Hollywood is not making movies that people want to see. And they do turn out when you make movies that people want to see. Something like that is happening at the moment with Sinners that is a sort of huge phenomenon.

28:37And you think, oh, well, I mean, perhaps if you made more movies that people actually wanted, then maybe more people go. But he wants to make unrated films, which he says, the studios won't let you do that. You know, I want to be really fully disgusting. And that's what the fans want. So I'm going to be able to do that this way because I'm not going to have to take all the notes off the studio and not do what, you know, I can do whatever I want. And, you know, he is making the point, and this happened in television when people went to streamers, suddenly ratings became less important. He is saying, I do not care about the box office take of these movies.

29:08That will look after itself. What I care about is the share price because that's what you're buying. You are literally becoming an owner of this company and if we have projects that do good business, the share price will go up and that's all I care about and your money will go up. And it feels, listen. He's interesting talking about it, isn't he? He's very charismatic. He's also in Inglourious Basterds, if you want to see him as an actor. That's probably his most famous role. He is a charismatic person and he seems mischievous and sort of disruptive in a way that sort of horror is anyway. But I do think that point you're making at the start is so interesting in terms of the mental profitability of the genre.

29:43The big films last year, like Terrifier 3, was the most profitable movie of the year last year. That's another horrible clown movie. It made 45 times its budget. Now, compare that to the top film in the box office of last year, Inside Out 2. That made 10 times its budget, but without marketing. So maybe it's five. Five times its budget. Yeah. Second biggest of the year, Deadpool and Wolverine, six times its budget, but again without marketing. Three times. Right. Now, as you say, Eli Ross catalogue, where these films make absolutely multiple, many, many multiples of their budget, as Clown in a Cornfield did last weekend and as Final Destination, clown in a corpfield, it's brilliant, isn't it?

30:23It's all up there in a title. It's like Cats in a Cradle. Yeah, and as Final Destination will. It's kind of completely profitable, almost without exception if it's well done. It's interesting, though, you talked about Kickstarter and said this isn't, as we say, this is on Republic and it's a different thing. But Kickstarter themselves have got much more into indie funding. They've got ahead of film funding now. That's someone's position at the company is to do these kind of outreach things. and they want to bring premium indie, not just people saying, well, I want to do my student film and I need you to, you know, kick in so we've all got some money here.

30:55They actually want to have a slate of things that they have financed and they're really quite ambitious about it. Taylor Shaw, who's the woman who they've got in to be the head of film outreach, I listened to an interview with her and they're very ambitious about this, that people are constantly now, as you see, trying to circumvent the old systems, which obviously aren't working in lots of different ways, but people feel they have new ideas that can work. I genuinely think, and I do think, obviously, film production money has, you know, films are costing more and more at the moment, but there's got to come an inflection point where films start costing less and less and less.

31:31I mean, we all understand the technology train that is coming and we all understand that that means that making content is going to become an awful lot cheaper quite soon. Nobody in Hollywood seems to be facing that fact. And horror always understood that. Horror always understood it, but I think it means that there are good times ahead for people who want to make interesting content that we constantly get told, and it's absolutely right, that the lowest common denominator always attracts the funding. We absolutely get it. So superhero movies, things like that, things that can reach a very, very big audience.

32:01Things that also make money are things with a rabid fan base. And the lovely thing with a rabid fan base is they will invest in something if they understand it's authentic and they understand that it's going to be good. And they understand it's a risk. Of course they do. But it is something they would be excited to get into. We've talked about this with games testing as well. They can then become evangelists for these things before they come out. It feels like a great business model. It would be lovely if, for example, in the world of British comedy, which has a great reputation worldwide, has a lot of fans worldwide, it feels like something maybe that certain high-profile British comic actors could get involved with.

32:39I just think in the next five years, an awful lot of people listening to this will become film investors somewhere in something. In the same way, you know, when you can own like one 32nd of a racehorse and people go into a syndicate, you know, you can put up a bit of money and you know you're not going to make a huge amount. But you can go to a movie and just go, I'm one of the producers of this movie. But if you're investing in films to make money as opposed to somehow hide their tax evasion would be a great idea. I'm really, I'm hugely proud. It's interesting. Eli Roth, he said, I first had this idea.

33:12Again, it's probably nonsense, but he's a good salesperson. And he said he was on the Howard Stern show. And Howard Stern at the end said, you know, if this guy was a stock, I'd buy him. He said, I've always thought about it. And I thought, you know, what if I was a stock? What if you could buy me? And the news is you can. So it's republic.com. You can go on. Please, please, please, for the love of God, don't take investment advice from us. But look, if you are a huge horror fan, if you love Eli Roth and you look at the terms and conditions and there's stuff in there that interests you, you can go to republic.com.

33:3841 days left. You can become an investor in the horror section. But I do think over the next few years, the more you talk to creatives and creators these days, and I talked to a few people at the BAFTAs last night, the more people are working out that you can either be funded by one rich person or one rich organisation, or you can be funded by a thousand fans. And actually, a thousand fans might be more useful to you than that one big corporation. Very engaged consumers. Yeah. I was just thinking that Apprentice movie, the Donald Trump movie, when they had all sorts of distribution problems, in fact, they couldn't get a distributor, they got the money to get a distributor via Kickstarter.

34:19They weren't funded via Kickstarter, but when they ran into problems, they managed to completely solve it, and they got it distributed, and they were up for various awards, and it all worked out. And those people, of course, all see the movie and tell many, many other people about the movie. Listen, it's a bit of fun, I think. I don't think it's going to make you a millionaire. But if you love entertainment, if you love film, if you love content, then there are going to be ways coming up that you can become a part of it. I don't know if the big studios did this, if I would invest in the next Marvel movie.

34:51Who knows? Well, that's because people don't feel that they choose for them. There's a sort of animus against the big studios because they feel that they're not necessarily making movies for them. And every time they do occasionally coalesce in terms of interest, then people turn out and see it. That's an animus sidebar for you. Yeah, animicide, but now Richard. The BAFTAs. The BAFTAs. Yeah, so listen, I'll get your take on, because obviously I didn't see the TV thing of it go out. Lucky you. But I was there on the day. I thought it might be interesting to talk through what a day at the BAFTAs is like, and then we can talk about the winners and losers and what it meant about British TV and what have you.

35:26So it's the Royal Festival Hall. You turn up at like 2.30. It was blazing hot. And there's an amazing, first person I bump into, Danny Dyer, with his, he's got the moustache so you know they're starting filming right next week. I think it's today they start. How exciting is that? So he's absolutely tashed up and he was up for Mr Big Stuff and I said, Danny, you've won millions of these so he goes, I never won one, I never won a BAFTA. I said, no way. And he did later on so I was very happy with that. I said to him, I've never won one either and it didn't go my way. And he did a very entertaining speech as well.

36:00What's your streak now on House of Games? I'm going to tell you about a very impressive streak later my amazing set producer Tamara Gilder who's got one of the all time great L streaks in nominee history so you turn up there it's blazing hot and you you're essentially when you get there's like a red carpet thing which so all the press photographers and all the kind of you know radio stations and things know where you are it's like you're at the airport and you're you know you're in a queue you know with all the kind of things either side of you except like Toby Jones is in front of you and Anton Decker behind you.

36:35But everyone's very, you know. That always happens to be at the airport. Yes, exactly. Sorry, what airport are we at now? So everyone walks through that. You always have to do like 15 million bits of social content now. They just go, oh, what do you do social content for? What do you do BAFTA socials? You go, yeah. Okay, what do you do BAFTA youth socials? Yeah, yeah. Oh, what do you do BAFTA social socials? Is that different to BAFTA socials? Yeah, of course it's different to BAFTA. It's BAFTA social socials. A whole different team. What do you do BAFTA TikTok? talk is that i'm so sorry just is that different to bafta socials anyways and lovely uh tom allen and susie ruffle were doing um the interview so you know you go through and you do all of that and you you queue up for a really really long time it's the only time i ever see celebrities queue and not complain because not because the thing if you're a presenter or something like that your food is brought to you like everything is like make sure the talent's okay make sure the talent's not waiting for a single second for a car or for some food and in this i think because everyone in the queue is famous they're like oh i should probably i should probably queue up to have my photo taken uh then you have your photo taken by about 15 people then there's this amazing kind of tunnel which i avoided because i'm too self-conscious which i thought you would maybe exceeded the maximum high i actually didn't i should have said that i said i can't you know i would be ducking down i'm sorry this is like a lorry that gets the top taken yeah exactly like one of those bus you think yeah guys guys you know your bus is too big for that it literally says it Don't drive down there.

37:58Anyway, I digress. There's a sort of select group of people who are allowed on the red carpet, like members of the public. And in return for allowing them, they have to get excited about every single person who walks past them. And their job, whenever the people walk past, is to shout that person's name as loudly as they can. Ego fluffer. And try and get... Exactly. And by the way, they get make-up. They have all sorts of things, this group of people. I think it's a fun gig because there's lots of fun celebrities there. but you know if you walk down there they all shout richard richard and it's because that's the job that's what they've been asked to do and so literally i find that the most mortifying thing in the world so i went like behind all the cameras like over the uh nearly tripped over a camera i went around the other way so you go in and then um you're like oh god the first person i bumped into is jonathan price who is uh classy really classy this is pretty good yeah and he's in the Thursday Murder Club movie.

38:52So we sat and chatted and I got to chat to him about Glengarry Glen Ross, my favourite movie of all time. So it's lovely that you get the opportunity to do that sort of thing. And then you're ushered in and the Royal Festival Hall is for like 2 ,000 people. And you imagine just getting that, you know, like in any, if like you're a teacher or something and trying to get everyone to sit down, it's a nightmare. Imagine trying to get everyone to sit down and they're all celebrities who are used to being the last person to sit down in any room they ever go to. Like every single person is going, no, no, I'll go at the last, I'll sit down the last possible minute.

39:25That's what I'm used to. And the poor floor managers and stage managers getting everyone in. But it's, BAFTA, I have to say, it's unbelievably well put together. That day, you then sit there in the auditorium and I think it was three and a half hours. You have no idea when your category is being read out. And of course, you can't go to the toilet just before yours is about to be read out. and ours, I think we were about the fourth from the end. So I'm like three hours, 15 minutes into this thing. Wow. It was very hot. Medically speaking, that's a danger zone. We had drunk a lot of water. Honestly, I was thinking the only reason now I want to win is so I can go to the toilet.

40:03Are they not giving you champagne? Beforehand, yeah. Yes. But you are aware you're going to be sitting down for three and a half hours with people who you worked with 30 years ago. So it's probably better to go in sober if you can. Yeah, it's really, really long. I'm not sure how they can make it shorter because they weren't mucking about. No, no, no. They do chop through it and there's things that have gone, sort of investigative documentaries or whatever, things like that have gone off the... There were two musical interludes, Tom Grennan and Jessie J, who both, unbelievable, I wasn't 100 % sure.

40:40Were they on telly? Yeah. Were they? I couldn't quite work out what that had to do with anything, but it is a bit of fun, other than when your category hasn't been done, And you're like, I'm still sitting here. And this is great, but you could have pre-recorded this bit. Because we want to get to best daytime. Yeah. And then best daytime comes up, which is our categories, right towards the end. And everyone in the audience. They should have a quiz category, can I just say. Yeah, well, listen. Sorry, quizzes are performing better than anything. And there are how many of them? They should have a quiz category rather than lumping in with daytime.

41:12But anyway, please, sorry, I'm interrupting. We were up against... No, please. We were up against Loose Women and Morning Live and Clive Myrie's Caribbean Adventure. That's ridiculous. And all good shows. But yeah, it's an unusual category to be in. So we turn up there and listen, I say this with genuine truth in my heart. It does not matter. It could not matter less if you win or you don't win. However, when you're there and everyone, like some people have just won, and you think, oh, maybe it'd be fun to win. I have sat through three and a half hours of this and I do really need a wee. And if you win, you get to go backstage so you don't have to watch the rest of it.

41:54That's the thing. If you win, you're on stage and then you go and do a press conference. The off-ramp. It's the off-ramp. So you're literally thinking, oh, my God, if we win. First, you get a BAFTA, which is nice. But more importantly, I don't have to watch the rest of the show. I've done two and a half hours and I've enjoyed it. and I've clapped lots of people. But anyway, we didn't. What a perk. My exec producer, Tamara Gilder, who was one of the greatest producers in the business, she's just, she is amazing. Cut her teeth on all the Ant & Dex shows and things like that. She has, since she started working with me, she has, she said, she's on a hell of a streak.

42:31This was Tamara's 17th award ceremony in a row being nominated and not winning. She is on a 17-show losing streak. She's the Scorsese of daytime. Yes, isn't she just? For Pointless, we never won anything. Not a BAFTA, not an RTS, nothing. For House of Games, we've never won, like, nothing. And Tamara has been sat in the audience for every single one of them, even the Scottish BAFTAs she went up to, and we didn't win. So a 17-show losing streak. And again, it doesn't matter, but it's quite funny. because she's so brilliant. And what you really want to do, another reason actually that you want to win is you get the opportunity to go up on stage and thank people, which is just a nice thing to be able to do and you get to thank the team.

43:19And I would have been able to thank Tamara and tell the world how brilliant she is. Well, you have now. Everyone in that room knows she's brilliant anyway. But yes, 17 in a row. Have I ever told that Vetus Geronitis story before? No. You know, the American tennis player of the 1970s. Yes, but you haven't told this story. So the first 16 times he played Jimmy Connors, he got beaten. And their next match, Fetus Gerolitis beats Jimmy Connors. And he goes into the press room afterwards. He puts a big bottle of champagne down on the table. And he says, nobody beats Fetus Gerolitis 17 times in a row.

43:54And I thought, well, listen, nobody, I would have said nobody beats Tamara Gilder 17 times in a row, but they do. But will anyone beat her 18 times in a row? Will they? Let's just wait and see. That's the question. But yeah, it's a really interesting one because of course when you're there, you do want to win. And we were gutted. But then you see something like Would I Lie to You, which had been nominated eight times for win. That's the first time they'd ever won. And I just assumed that they had. They'd won it. So did I, but I didn't realise that. And Rachel Ablett and Peter Holmes, who make that, it's lovely.

44:22You know, they had the BAFTA. Again, it doesn't matter, but it's nicer to win than not to win when you're sitting in that boiling hot room. How did it come across on TV, though? Well, please, can we talk about it? considering it is about television as a television spectacle. It's so odd. Television is something that basically most people in the UK are watching quite a lot of every single day and they engage with it a lot in this particular era. How then did this feel so sort of out of date? And I can tell you one of the issues, which for me, by the way, something like Mr Bates versus the Post Office.

45:00Obviously, how much have I talked about it on this show maybe a year and a bit ago? About how amazing that was as a show and what an amazing thing it did and how it moved on the conversation and all these sort of things. I absolutely love those guys. I absolutely love them. It won its first big award 14 months ago. I mean, it aired almost 18 months ago, not quite. We were talking about Marmalade Dropper moment from Traitors. not the series that aired in the January we've just had but the one before that. Now I think they've got a big problem with their eligibility window if this is the time of year they're going to have the ceremony.

45:38The eligibility window runs from something like the 1st of January in this case the 1st of January 2024 to the 31st of December 2024. Now if the show is held almost six months after the eligibility window closes I know that they have to convene the juries and they have to do all of that But I think in an era where people are very, very engaged with television, talk about it while it's happening. Lots of our big viral moments. It's a big part of social media. It just seems so sort of something of the past to be talking about shows, you know, Baby Ranger. Again, that was 13 months ago. Again, I'm not sort of, this is absolutely no disrespect to the shows themselves.

46:16The Emmys went through something similar when they had to postpone them because of the strikes, where they were in a position where you were honouring the bear season two, two months after the bear season three had started. And everyone said, oh, this is absurd and we can't have this. But this is a sort of matter of kind of routine now. I felt exactly that. Because if you had a year ago pitched Mr Bates versus the post office against Baby Reindeer, then that's really compelling because we're all talking about it. And this year, of course, you want to see how adolescence does. So, yeah, that window closing would be super useful, I think.

46:52And, you know, as you say, the traitors, like this stuff moves on. And, you know, there hasn't been like a big hit sort of in the last couple of months that was available for people to vote for or cheer for or anything like that. And, yes, it felt like we were. And it was great to be able to, you know, give Mr. Bates versus the Post Office all of those awards. But it would have been it would have been. And it's tough. I mean, the second you start actually looking at the kind of dates and how to do it, it's tough for Baffler. Yes, I realise that. But if they can move, I mean, just even six months, I mean, just give us a little bit more of a window, I think would really, really help it out.

47:28It gives the impression that the industry is so far behind. And in a way, it's such a sort of vital movement, as I say, vital medium, because people are talking about it all the time. And it's a big part of what people talk about online and how they talk with their friends. And if it's for things that they think, oh, yeah, no, I remember that. Yeah. That seems extraordinary. And it seems embarrassing, given that this is television about television. And so, you know, it rated OK. It rated very, you know, Sunday night, which helps. Picked over three million. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't get as much as Countryfile.

47:59Yes, listen, but nothing, you know, as I've always said. You yield to no one. Nothing gets as much as Countryfile. In terms of the mood music that I found interesting, there was some optimism there, which was great. You know, there's producers there who are finding new ways of making things, new ways of funding things, who are finding interesting new talent. So I thought that was interesting. Not a single talk about tariffs from anywhere. I mean, that story just hasn't made... It has in film, but he hasn't said anything about television, so maybe that's why. I know, but again, the uncertainty is the thing.

48:30And actually, no one seems particularly worried about it, including producers who make a lot in America and who make a lot in the UK and export their IP. The most exciting thing, I think there were a few people there who had just finished Celebrity Traitors and there were some of the production team as well and I of course because I'm a newshound if I'm anything. Oh I know, you're a service journalist I'm a service journalist, exactly I spoke to every single one of them and all of them were admirably tight lipped as I knew they would be but you look in the eyes of course you do. That's the way you do it it seems like it went well I think, everyone seemed pretty happy, the production team were pretty happy with what they've got.

49:12I talked to a couple of people who had actually been on it, a couple of their contestants. I think, by the way, the full line-up is being announced today. So if you're listening to this in the morning, I think it's coming out this afternoon. If you're listening later, then, and yes, as I've said before, we do not know the full line-up, but we will find it out today. Yes, I was talking to people who did it, and their basic thing was everyone who did it is a fan of the show. They wanted to be inside that. Which is why such good people are doing it. Why it's such an amazing line-up. But the thing that everyone was saying was it is a lot more intense than you think it's going to be.

49:48It is a lot more intense. If you were to win it, you're there for two weeks. There's no phones. You're not watching TV. I mean, you're kept sort of isolated because of the nature of the game. And I think even for these, you know, lots of presenters and actors are sort of used to having a bit of control over the product that goes out. Or at least always be in a dialogue with the producer and the director and stuff. And this is a show where you are not in dialogue with the producer or the director. In fact, quite the opposite. It's imperative that you are not in dialogue with them. And they said it was really, really, really intense.

50:23I can't wait for this show. I have to say I am absolutely dying for it. As we said before, that's what's so fun about it. It will be completely different with people who have a public profile. And people who know bits about each other already. And where there is a status difference. There's an immediate status difference. Yes. So, yeah, listen, I can't wait. Oh, God, I'm dying for it. And I talked to various people's agents as well who had clients in it. So everybody seems happy. The production team certainly seem happy. Claudia was there and was keeping very tight-lipped about the whole thing.

50:54But it feels like we've got a treat in store coming up. So, yeah, the BAFTAs, it doesn't matter, but it's interesting. I thought it was beautifully put together. I think they need to change that eligibility window. Because, I mean, it's fascinating the baby reindeer. won nothing apart from Jessica Gunning. Everyone was so happy that she won. The ones that went down really well in the room, Jessica Gunning winning, went down really well. Would I Lie to You winning went down very well. Lenny James went down great as well. Now that was relatively recent. That was October, I think. Yeah, and that's what you need, essentially.

51:29You sort of needed, maybe it would be too late to get an adolescence in there, but that's what you need, especially if things are released in January. you're not going to be at the BAFTAs for 18 months. There's so many of these old sort of super tankers which as you say are still big and rated well but just don't feel like they're keeping pace with the nature of the conversation around television whatever it is they're moving at a different speed to the thing that they're celebrating and I think it showed up a lot. But listen, the thing to look out for next year is will Tamara Gilder lose her 18th nomination in a row?

52:06Listen, I wouldn't put it, but she can do anything. When she puts her mind to it tomorrow, I can achieve anything. I think she can lose 18 in a row. Go tomorrow. Yeah, go tomorrow. Have you got any recommendations for me, Richard? Yes, I have. I mean, listen, Poker Face, I started again, but I talk about Poker Face all the time. So instead, I'm going to send you in the direction of a documentary on iPlayer. It's a half hour long, made in 1979, I think. but it follows a very young, I think 21-year-old Eric Bristow around the country doing signings and playing. Just for the benefit of our listeners who may be not fully versed in darts, can you explain?

52:41Yeah, sorry, I know there aren't any, but could you just explain? I'm going to have to explain who Eric Bristow is. Yeah, I think you might. Do you know what? I resign. Eric Bristow was one of the great first wave of darts players, world champion. This catches him just before he's world champion and it's such a period piece now. It's 1979 and he's in working men's clubs and he's playing darts against people and what people are wearing and some of the stuff he's saying. And the whole thing is framed around this amazing interview with an interviewer on Radio Trent, whose name, I think, Chris Ashley.

53:09And he's really, really putting Bristow through his paces and Bristow's loving it. Bristow's smoking in the studio. It's one of those things where you go, it's a Britain that we have lost. And it's a really lovely, obviously, if you like darts, you'll enjoy it. But even if you don't, there's something about it. I love that in this Adam and Curtis thing that's coming there's a lot of footage from the 80s of just parties that people had in their houses just like with their neighbours and friends and there's something and you think yeah that's what parties were like and all sort of different types of them and there's a couple of people having square dancing things and just in their front rooms and having the sofas but it's so weird I always think we must remember when we watch anything like that we must remember that we're living in the past right now we must remember it in 30 years time just think about where you eat dinner and what you do and the shops you go to and what you're wearing and what the street furniture is and think 30 years time when someone's got footage of that and how ancient it's going to look.

54:06We are living in this wonderful nostalgic past every day of our lives and it's called Arrows half an hour long so I'm BBC iPlayer and I absolutely loved it. On that very positive note please join us for our question and answers edition which is going to be in part a Eurovision special because Eurovision's coming up on Saturday as like you didn't already know. I know. Hopefully we'll be talking. We could have talked about it this week, but in a way it'd be more fun to talk about it next week. But on the Q &A, we've got lots of Eurovision people. You've sent in so many questions and we've got answers from the horse's mouth.

54:39Yes. Lots of other questions as well, by the way, but we will have a few on Eurovision. And if you want to listen to that episode now, you can do, if you're a member of our club, which you join at therestersentertainment.com. Otherwise, as usual, it will be available on Thursdays. And we have actually got a bonus episode on Friday, which is continuing the Monty Python story. Story, yeah. We're busy, aren't we? We are busy. We are busy. And on that note, see you on Thursday. See you on Thursday.

55:17Well, that brings us to the end of another episode of The Rest is Entertainment, brought to you by our friends at Sky. I have been catching up on The Last of Us recently, such a gripping watch. Absolutely right. The critics are fairly unanimous. It's dark and intense, brilliantly done, they're all saying, especially on your sky glass with its high quality screen. Even those very low lit scenes, every flicker, every detail, it really pulls you in. One minute you'll be stretched out on the sofa, the next you'll be gripping the cushion and that is not a euphemism. The picture quality really just brings everything to life from the comfort of your living room.

55:45It feels properly cinematic, like the room fades away and you're in the thick of it. Until the clickers show up, then it feels a bit too real. That's when you reach for the blanket, the perfect night in. Couldn't agree more. So for anyone wanting to upgrade this screen time, head to Sky.com and check out Sky TV. I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist. And I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist. Together, we're the hosts of another goal hanger show, The Rest is Classified, and we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies. Here's that clip we mentioned earlier on.

56:14June 5th, 2013, this first article drops and it's a massive one. It is a massive one. The world doesn't yet know that the source for this article is Edward Snowden. All they get is this remarkable story. And I mean, I remember it dropping and thinking, where has this come from? It just felt so kind of unusual as a story. We should explain what it was and why it's so significant. It's a court order to the company Verizon that demands it hands over the details of every phone call in America. And what it was after was what's called the metadata, not the content of the call. So it's basically saying these two phones connected at this time for so long, not necessarily what was said in that phone call.

56:53But it allows the idea for the NSA and then the FBI to kind of carry out searches on it to look for terrorists or other suspects. The point being, though, that this looks like domestic surveillance by the NSA. And that was stunning, partly because the US Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, just a few months before had been asked in Congress by a senator, almost a question which suggests that the senator knew about this program, because the senator said, does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans? And Clapper's reply was no. There is a tremendous gap between the understanding of this program, I think, inside sort of the upper reaches of Congress and the intelligence community and the White House and what the American people think is happening.

57:43And that's where this article is such a bombshell, because Americans prior to this, ordinary people, did not have an understanding that any of this was authorized. Exactly. I think what's interesting, if it had just been that one story, it would have been big, but actually it's really an American story. It's about the kind of American constitution and legal protections. But, and I think you can imagine US officials going, okay, well, you know, that's bad. But then the Guardian tells US officials who they're in contact with, that they've got another story coming down the line. And I think that's important, because it makes clear that it's not just a single document that's been leaked.

58:16But there's more and it's coming from what looks like inside the NSA. So the next day, there's a little race, but the Guardian publishes a story on something called Prism. Now, this is another biggie in terms of a reveal. And I think for a lot of people, this is perhaps, particularly around the world, this is the more famous one. This is about the content of emails and communications, which are coming from big US tech firms. So this is about basically the idea that the NSA had access directly to companies like Microsoft, Facebook, Google, Apple, to things like Gmail, Outlook, Photos, all the data that people are sending around the world.

58:57This is in some ways a more stunning revelation because everyone around the world uses American tech companies. You know, those were basically the only companies you used for email and for everything else. And suddenly this program is being revealed saying the NSA appears to have access to it and is able to target and get particular accounts and details of it. But if you go back to that time, I mean, if you then talk to people now about what it was like in GCHQ, you know, Britain's intelligence agency, I mean, there is blind panic. Ian Lobin, who was then the director, later said, when I heard the news, I lay awake saying to myself, I hope this isn't a Brit.

59:38Because, you know, they've realised they've got a leak. Some of it looks like it relates to Britain. He's reported to have gone round colleagues asking, is anyone in your teams at GCHQ taking a long holiday? And I think meanwhile, in NSA as well, there's this kind of desperate panic as they realise their secrets are being unfurled. But what's interesting is that they are kind of narrowing it down and they're certainly kind of heading towards Snowden if they don't know it already at this point. Typically, someone who'd done this would keep themselves secret. But luckily, he's a massive narcissist with a massive ego.

1:00:12And if you want to hear the full episode, listen to The Rest is Classified wherever you get your podcasts.