Matthew Perry & The Dark Hollywood Underbelly

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1:21Hello and welcome to this episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hello, Marina. How are you, Richard? Yes, I'm really, really well. How are you? Very well, thank you. I have to say, because I can't even wait for recommendations on this one, I read your book. I read Richard's new book, listeners, We Solve Murders, which is out on September the 12th. I so love the three main characters. Obviously, you do heart very well, Richard. But it's so funny. Completely different settings to the Thursday Murder Club, although there is some good pub quiz stuff in there as well.

1:52There is some pub quiz stuff, but yeah, a bit more globetrotting. oh I'm so happy you liked it thank you so much I absolutely loved it and I cannot wait to see but I mean that's the trouble with you you always want the next one straight away but you do write them so quickly that perhaps we'll get it one a year I try and do and it's got a great front cover as well it's terrific can you also update me on the settling in of Lottie the kitten oh I saw a headline I think it was the Daily Mail said Richard Osmond welcomes new family member and I was like oh my god there's nothing you can say on this podcast that doesn't become a really bad piece of clip she is great her and Liesl are now in the same room at times.

2:27Very, I mean, Lottie is so desperate to play with Liesel. Liesel is like, well, I mean, this is absolutely outrageous. So she just sits as high up as she can and occasionally just sort of flicks her paw out to bat Lottie away. So I think it's going to be okay. Yeah. Oh, it's wonderful. From that, what are we going to talk about this week? We are going to talk about my book and my kitten. No, we've done that. We've covered both of those things. We are going to talk about Monnie Mae Haig and Tommy Fury, the first couple of Instagram. and we're going to talk about their split up but also what their celebrity and the money they've made tells us about where our culture currently is.

3:02We are also going to talk in the wake of the charges brought in the investigation into Matthew Perry, the friend's actor's death about celebrity entourages and toxic celebrity entourages. And also I think a lot of people have noticed that maybe the Daily Telegraph has gone mad recently when you look at some of the headlines. So I just wanted to ask you, has the Daily Telegraph gone mad? What's going on there economically? because I know there's a story. We will talk about that. I don't think it's gone mad, but maybe madness is a great business strategy, so we can talk about that too. Listen, it's the 21st century.

3:31Yeah, that's the vibe. Talking of vibes, so Molly Mae Haig and Tommy Fury. They met on Love Island and they were a sort of golden couple. We don't know the full details of it and we're certainly not going to get particularly into this side of it, but Molly Mae has abruptly ended the relationship, I think, on receipt of information. Yes. And as you say, the first couple of Instagram are no more. Instagram didn't even exist 14 years ago. And to me, it's interesting in the way that these platforms themselves, particularly Instagram, have completely insinuated themselves into the fabric of our lives.

4:06Now, Molly May was chosen for Love Island because she had a following on Instagram. And I think she started it with something like 100 ,000 followers. Which sounds like a lot. Which sounds like a lot. By the end of just that season of Love Island, she had 2 million. she said later oh I did it as a business move which and it's almost like the finding love was you know that's of course that's the sort of side effect you think you think you think sometimes people weren't going on blind dates yeah yeah to find a wife well as you know once you get past a million followers you are a brand and um so much of their relationship seems to be sort of funneled through this platform there were always these mini storms like why hadn't he proposed to her when he did eventually propose to her it was an event for instagram because and i've funny enough i was recently um having to google events companies and there's a whole bit of the drop down menu now that is proposals people yes this is and these are now events and of course they are events and they are chronicled on social media and there's a sort of sense in a weird way isn't it if it hasn't been on social media and then perhaps it hasn't actually occurred did it happen if a man proposes to a woman in a forest yeah and it gets no likes and it gets if there isn't it can't be by the caption she said yes does it did it actually occur and or her just pointing at him going this one and then she said when she was recalling their engagement she said he tripped me into going to the proposal site which had all been decked out for the benefit of the platform by creating a fake brand trip so that's how he got it to go now you know people have social media people to handle their weddings now and to run it and everyone feels that they must speak when a celebrity dies or something like everyone my friend johnny freedom once said to me everyone's now the archbishop of canterbury having to release these statements yeah and first of all she's probably been sent the pictures that are whatever they may be or the footage that has precipitated the sundering in the in the relationship whatever precipitated the sundering she's probably been sent those farther platform hashtag precipitating the sundering you see it all the time and she then had to say i'm sorry i've taken an accidental break from posting people have to now say we talked about this the other week don't we you know people saying i'm going on holiday in case anyone wonders why they're not posting and all these little conventions have been established people saying oh look her parents have unfollowed him or oh yeah a journalist you know i met i've spoke to a journalist about this quite recently and they he said that he showbiz journalist as we've discussed before used to go out and try and speak to people and find the stories that way now a huge amount of you know 90 of the job is trying to see what happens on social media and he had paid for the development of a piece of software that enables him to ring stories out of instagram either basically by working out who's unfollowing whom who's liking but via these sort of unfollowings and likes and sort of more slightly more below the radar aspects of it all and it's sort of really weird when you're reading the story you can hardly work out where all their endorsements stop it kept saying he the stories about the supposed betrayal of her they were talking about Tommy Fury saying he was down in Grey Goose Vodka and I was thinking it doesn't really matter because the brands are sort of in the life now and so they just become part of the story.

7:14Just to sum up who the two of them are so people may have heard the names but not know so Molly May Haig as you say went on Love Island had a bit of a following already for fashion lifestyle-y type stuff. I think she had her first ever paid post on Instagram at the age of 16. I think I read she got paid£25 to post something about a fashion brand and now she's on five-figure sum every time she mentions anything. The second she left Love Island, all mention of Love Island off her bio, never mentions it, never talks of herself as part of that world. Absolutely from the second she left, she was Molly May.

7:47She's not been the most showy contestant ever in that show she's not one the one the biggest personality you know it's quite peculiar why she's the one that's got all of those followers but it comes from authenticity it comes from what she um endorses what she doesn't endorse and she's seen as real she's seen as relatable and that's the key thing in our world is do i believe that this person is wearing these clothes do i believe that this person likes the fake tan that she's endorsing so yeah she makes it well She's got her own fake tan company now. She's got her own fake tan like that. She gets seven figures to be the brand ambassador for Pretty Little Thing.

8:23Pretty Little Thing was her key thing. She became the brand ambassador, then the creative director. Now, since she's just had a kid, she's brand ambassador again. So she's built a huge empire. In the way we were told in the 90s that celebrity women were in charge of their own careers, she really does seem to have been in charge of her own career. And she is from a very lovely middle-class Stevenage family. I think both her parents were police officers. So she's got a real solidity behind her as well. Tommy Fury is from the Fury family of boxers. He's Tyson Fury's brother. Tyson Fury, one of the greatest fighters of all time.

8:56Tommy Fury, I'm going to say not one of the greatest fighters of all time, but certainly makes an absolute fortune. His first four fights, he fought against people who'd had 12 wins in 181 fights. Now he makes a million quid a time for fighting KSI and Jake Paul, who are not boxers. so they both have made an awful lot of money and they've grafted to make an awful lot of money they form together and of course they become bigger than the sum of their parts and they became sort of i think slightly iconic to people because people believed in that relationship and people liked the fact that they were so different but they were so in love and that they had that genuine connection so i think for a generation which is very much not our generation or even the generation below us it's like a proper good old-fashioned bombshell it's charles and die but for people who didn't inherit their wealth yeah and i think that one of the things that's interesting that you're talking about you know the brand their brands work together and there's a sort of halo effect of both of them being together and it's worth more than the sum of their parts in the old days when celebrity relationships would break up you would hear from i don't know agony aunts or or, I don't know, relationship therapist, and I think what's happened here is, you now hear from brand experts, a whole new strata of our society, who will talk to you about, you know, who gets custody, really, of the likes.

10:15And, you know what I mean? And it's like, and I, it's interesting. One of the interesting things, I think, about what she particularly has done is, as you say, she didn't have any mention of Love Island on her bio as soon as she was out. She's also not gone anywhere near television, really. No, a couple of cameos on the Furies, reality show sure but when you think of how many things they could have done they've absolutely kept away from those platforms everything she's done has been by the platforms which she controls her following on youtube and on and particularly on instagram and as you say you know she is very authentic and people like that and she doesn't try and hide her struggles so you sort of sense that this will become knit into woven into the story of the brand and maybe she'll probably do a book now and she'll probably do they i think they did have an amazon prime show they were in talks with amazon prime yet again one of these platforms yeah i thought you were gonna say they had an amazon prime account i was like yeah i've got an amazon prime account mate that doesn't make them special the celebrities they're just like us yes and um yeah so so i think that they they they were in talks with amazon prime who yet again would be trying to get this kind of weird audience they don't fully understand into their platform and they were going to do a reality show which i'm pretty sure won't be happening now um but one of the things that's interesting about her and the reason that she will have this sort of longevity is that she is of interest to both the sort of women's magazine market and the tabloids and so if you can sort of straddle those worlds and you think people will dress her up for sort of some sophisticated photo shoot but also all the dramas and all the stories of the life are grist for the tabloid mill as well so she she straddles it in quite an odd way and this is why people are willing to pay so much money to have her push their staff and here's the fascinating thing about people willing to pay out all of that money is when we talk about what's happened to television what's happened to magazines what's happened to local press all that stuff this is what's happened because advertisers are giving her an awful lot of money and giving tommy fury an awful lot of money this is not new money they found from somewhere this is the money they used to spend in magazines and on television and now they literally go directly to the source give that money to the person works for that person And so that is money that has absolutely left the ecosystem of entertainment and gone straight into the pockets of, by the way, someone who's an incredibly smart businesswoman and has done amazing things.

12:39So absolutely fair play to her. but that's why if you're running a lifestyle magazine life is harder because why am I taking out a one-page big glossy ad in your lifestyle magazine when I can give somebody who was on Love Island last year the same amount of money and actually get more of an impact yeah I find it so creepy the way that something that didn't exist 14 years ago has just inveigled its way into every aspect every rite of passage every everything it hasn't happened if it hasn't happened on that platform it's fascinating that you know lots of people listening maybe molly may hague and tommy fury are not on their radar i know absolutely for lots of people they'll be definitively on their radar but it's fascinating how siloed culture becomes that you know they've made tens of millions together he didn't make a lot out of the actual boxing he made a lot out of the the pretend boxing with the ksi and jake paul if i say pretend boxing maybe uh jake paul will call me out but you know what one night in vegas with jake paul just you know hit me for 100 million i'll do it yeah i'm six foot seven mate you know i could i could take him no he's he's uh i think he probably i think this is an exclusive for the daily express i think jake paul would beat me in a fight i think he would but you know a couple of million i'd be happy to do that yeah what was my what we talked about the uh the money they've had um you know you can build those enormous empires and still be invisible to 80 % of the British public.

14:05And it's that age old thing of our culture is driven by advertising. And our culture is driven by who will buy things and how do brands reach those people. And so brands are very, very happy to spend every single penny they have to reach 10, 15, 20 % of the British public. And the other 80 % can be absolutely unaware of what's going on. And I feel like that's what's happened with Molly May and Tommy. Because genuinely, to quite a substantial amount of people, they are huge and this is a huge story. Yeah. But also the brands, you can see how worth it is. As I say, they're now organically mentioned in all the news stories.

14:45Swinging Grey Goose Vodka, arriving in his Mercedes G-Bag, all of these stories. No, we're mentioning Grey Goose Vodka. Yeah, this is not sponsored content. and they've got so many of these little labels and hits in them, these stories and it's almost because we're so used to reading that stuff online that journalists don't think twice but the way they're typing out, they've read so much of this I mean, I want to say nonsense because it is nonsense to me but they've read so much of this nonsense but you just type your way through all the labels and all the bits and I guess it takes up the word count and suddenly you've realised you've just I mean, how much re-advertising have they done?

15:20So, Love Island, fascinating So as I say, Molly May really distanced herself from it, but absolutely was the making of it. She has said, and I'm minded to believe it, that she would have got to where she's going without Love Island. She was already on such a steep upward curve anyway, but I don't think it was unhelpful. If I was a young entrepreneur with a few followers, I would 100 % go on Love Island. I don't think people care so much about Love Island anymore, actually. I think there must be other routes. I think it's less the... Because again, once anything's hung around for long enough, it becomes slightly naff and cliched to do it in the way that even Big Brother did in its sort of first run.

15:59And I think that there are other ways through. But you can really see how they're so far beyond it, these two now, that they're just a sort of rolling brand story. Exactly. And fascinating for anyone listening who doesn't watch Love Island, so didn't see them on Love Island, doesn't follow either of them on Instagram or read the mail online. They didn't win that Love Island, by the way, we should say. No, it came second. Like One Direction, not winning X Factor. So often it's the non-winners who do well. But anyone who has missed every single opportunity to catch up on the Molly Mae Haig and Tommy Fury story, rest assured it's been out there.

16:36Rest assured it's been attracting a huge amount of money. And rest assured that money has come from what we think of as traditional media. And that is just going to continue. Yeah, read any of the stories about it and see how many brands are just name-checked for free, by the way. The journalist who's writing that story is not getting paid anything. Yeah, and then imagine running a legacy media company who absolutely rely on advertising for their income. Sorry, if I'm Grey Goose, why would I advertise on Mail Online? You've mentioned it 40 times today already. I don't need to pay. If Grey Goose are listening, we've mentioned them now.

17:09Yeah. We should have got in touch beforehand. We always do it the wrong way around. Yeah, we're such idiots. We always fail. We always give our best ideas. And that is why you are not Molly May Hagen. I am not Tommy Fury. That's one of so many reasons. There are a number of reasons, aren't there? But we wish them both all the best, especially the little baby, Bambi. So is the baby called Bambi Fury? Yeah. Wow. If you, by the way, Tyson Fury, I always thought, if you were to write a book and said, I'm going to have a boxer in this book, I'm going to call him Tyson Fury. You're like, come on, you've got that name you have to change.

17:39You can have one or the other. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, that's no good. it's like steven spielberg's press officer is called terry press no and you're like come on sorry can we quickly talk about mr spielberg because i believe i've seen on one of the platforms we've just mentioned that you have met mr spielberg i think it described what we were wearing as well yeah it's fascinating when you have a picture of steven spielberg and you don't talk you don't talk about raiders of the last ark but you talk about his baseball cap uh it was amazing firstly you just had this that incredible presence you do there's certain people you meet where you go, oh my God, you're Steven Spielberg.

18:12And it was so lovely seeing the, even the other actors were so excited to be around him. I won't say what anyone said, but Sir Enkinsley was talking to him. He was talking to him about Schindler's List and their experience in such a beautiful way. And he clearly loved Steven Spielberg. And it was so gorgeous. And then Paul Freeman, who's in the movie, he was in Raiders of the Lost Ark. They were talking about that. God, Spielberg, he could not have been nicer. All the extras, it was quite a big scene that day. So a lot of supporting artists out there. people spotted me and then suddenly there's Spielberg who weirdly was hidden behind me Spielberg comes out and everyone everyone oh my god was so I mean everyone all the actors everyone was so excited to see him and his relationship with Chris Columbus is so lovely they adore each other he came in by helicopter of course and then we looked up afterwards where he must have helicoptered in from and he'd helicoptered in from a private yacht in the south of France with Bono and Bruce Springsteen that's the life of it all three of them on the holiday together yeah Ah, with their partners.

19:11God, why can't ITV film that? I mean, that's something. I know, yeah, that's a, yeah. Come on. No, it was, honestly, it was a dream, and he was delightful, and it's a beautiful sunny day. He was everything that you would want him to be. And I was able to say to him, because, listen, everyone said everything to Spielberg that he needs to say, but I was able to say right at the end, I said thank you for everything you do and the joy that you've brought the world, and I left it at that. I thought I never need to say another word because I just said thank you. If you think about how he has entertained us, the joy he's brought, the stories he's told us, the tears we've shed because of him, it's nice to be able to stand there, shake his hand and say thank you.

19:49So that was nice. Oh, well, on that, I think we can only go to a break. Yes, I hope this is Grey Goose. At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. I'm Christian McCaffrey, pro running back, and Abercrombie is an official fashion partner of the NFL. I'm not kidding when I say NFL by Abercrombie broke the internet last year, and I think this season's lineup is even cooler. And so does my wife, who keeps stealing all my hoodies.

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21:08welcome back everybody now the daily telegraph marina as i said at the beginning there seemed to be a thing sort of around the election there are all sorts of headlines in the telegraph can i can i read you a couple please do i think some were telegraph some were sunday telegraph but i'm was it an election or an apocalypse yes what exactly i mean armageddon is upon us and britain will never be the same again was one of their uh headlines labor will bankrupt every generation The UK is about to enter a nightmare much darker than anyone yet realises Although, how can you write that headline if you haven't realised?

21:40Anyone apart from me has yet realised Rachel Reeves has just admitted the grotesque truth about her plans for Britain Labour's real agenda for Britain is more terrible than anyone imagined And I loved the, just before the election There are just 1 ,000 hours to save Britain Now this feels, Daily Telegraph of course is a right-leaning newspaper and can write the news it wants to write in the way it does. Knows its readers, absolutely. But there's something about this that doesn't make it feel like this is a serious daily newspaper. Is there something behind that? Well, I think that's very charitable of you because I've got to say that I think all papers are guilty of writing absolutely nutso headlines.

22:22I mean, maybe, like, there's a few, you don't see them so many nutso ones in the FT or whatever. but in general like who among us has not read in one's own publication something where you think wow that's crazy but it draws readers in and clearly I mean it's unclear how many hours we have left to save the west slash Britain slash whatever it's supposed to come across as quite muscular and what have you but to me it always sounds kind of weak because it sounds so mad and deranged having said that as I say no paper is immune from these and as audiences age out and people are constantly searching as you know the news industry was unfortunately run by journalists which means that it's been run very badly for a very long time and what happened with the telegraph actually it's quite interesting the telegraph was bought or its debts were taken massive debts were taken on by a company called redbird imi which is the sort of investment firm for arm of the uae government really and yes and then so it's owned by well it was going to be but The Tories suddenly brought in legislation saying that foreign state powers can't own our valuable newspapers and current affairs periodicals, etc.

23:31Because the Telegraph group, we should say, comprises the Daily Telegraph, the Sunday Telegraph, obviously the websites, which are subscription and the Spectator. The sale, I think people hope it will be done at some point next month in September. But there are all sorts of people who are in for the Telegraph. you will have to decide whether you will see more or less of those types of headlines depending on who gets it so you've got people like um news call the murdoch family might like something like the spectator paul marshall i think so the spectator is a magazine but a sort of culture politics it's a very old centuries old you know yes from the and it's got it's got culture it's got politics it's got all sorts of things but it's a sort of prized and it's a prestige asset and they've also expanded.

24:18They've got an online US web organization, which we'll talk more about in a minute, in general, about the US. But Paul Marshall, the hedge fund guy who backs GB News and UnHerd, the website, very much wants The Spectator. And maybe he could hive off that bit and get it for, I don't know, 100 million. Who knows what it will actually cost. There are some other mad bids out there. There's Nadim Zahawi, our former chancellor and many other jobs, who is trying to get foreign investment together. And then have Boris Johnson, someone you may remember from newspapers like the Daily Telegraph and countries like ours.

24:52Yes. To be the global editor-in-chief. Oh, really? Yeah. But he doesn't want it. He doesn't really want to work, Boris, does he? No. I suppose a job like that, an editor-in-chief, you don't have to do anything. Editor-at-large. Editor-at-large, okay. Every time I see that, I think, you know, I actually know some editors-at-large who file constantly and are brilliant. But in general, I just think, oh, yeah, you're just up there on the masthead. By the way, I'm trying to think if it would be the best thing ever or the worst thing ever to have Boris Johnson in Celebrity Traitors. Oh, God, it would be.

25:18Just book him. I mean. Book him, but don't. Whatever you do, don't make him a traitor. The trouble is he's ruined the game. He's so chaotic that he wouldn't. He deliberately pretend not to understand the rules of the game, which is lifelong practice. It'll be the first time he's ever said, I promise you, I'm a faithful. Yeah, I mean, he's very practiced at that. But other than that. So who else is in for the Telegraph? The Daily Mail General Trust, which is who own the… So the Daily Mail or Newscore could buy it, and that's not a problem for the Monopolies Commission. If you go over 50 % of the market, then you can't.

25:51But what's interesting with the mail is that the mail, you think, oh, the mail created mail online. A guy called Martin Clark basically built that up from a nothing start, an online offering, and it became absolutely massive. it's and no one knew what that you know people didn't hadn't heard of the daily mail even in like new york or something like that maybe you'd heard it but not as a general thing they've got all their own media in the u.s but what people want is those anglophone subscribers because it's a big big pool of people that you can sell your content to you already so if you're a uk newspaper what you're saying is there is a ready-made market in america which is five times the size of the uk market they all speak your language you have the tools to make a website and to report on things why not expand this is what the guardian did this is you know also australia again these anglophone countries are you don't have to change anything and you can just hire more staff and create more content so martin clark basically built the mail online into from nothing to something which is now the 12th uh biggest news website in the us uh the bbc is the 10th is the 10th to put it in perspective the guardians the 18th the sun is the 23rd so something that was once our massive market leader in terms of news is now fallen back.

27:05Now, The Telegraph doesn't even sort of rate on that. But Lord Rothermere, who owns the Daily Mail and is taking it back into private ownership, obviously sees what happened with Mail Online and how you can create something. And he says, we believe there's an enormous potential in the US, which has sadly become polarised between the left and the right. Yeah, you think? Both in print and broadcasting, for a centre-right publication like The Telegraph. Now, when you read headlines like that, you're not really thinking centre-right, are you? You're thinking wingnut, right? So that's what's interesting about those things.

27:33If the mail were to buy it, it will be interesting to see what they did. If they were trying to reverse that brand into a strategy they've already proved with Mail Online. So they would want to be trying to, I don't know, I guess create a right of center thing. Is there the market for that in MAGA world in America now? Right wing content is really right wing in the US. As we've talked about on the podcast before, their news market is so polarized. They don't have anything like the BBC, which is this great, huge anchor at the centre of British public life that really lots of people trust and use all the time.

28:04They don't have anything like that. So it might work. You notice with the Mail how successful it's been for them. You've now noticed that more and more is going behind a paywall on Mail Online. They've got something called Mail Plus. So it's going premium, as they call it. And they've studied so well over all of that time what goes viral, what people love, what gets the biggest hits. First of all, it was like two or three things a day. And now it's so many things because they've worked out how to make that money. Is their success in America because their content is not explicitly political? It is actually lifestyle and celebrity.

28:35The celebrity side of it has driven it completely, completely. They do have some political stuff, but it's not where you go see for that. That's not the stuff behind the paywall. Yeah, it's become an international thing. And American celebrities would give exclusives to Mail Online. American paparazzi will want to sell to Mail Online because it's a great place to put, you know, they run so many pictures. It just became this huge phenomenon. So is there a category error? It seems like there is to me that some of these newspapers, so the telegraph, let's take the telegraph as an example, going to skew right politically.

29:04We'll skew right a bit more politically so we get more clicks and then we can break into America like our rivals, the Daily Mail did with Mail Online, because that's a huge market for us and this is the way for us to do it. But actually that's not what happened. What happened is the people behind the Mail Online really understood what people actually want on the internet, which is celebrity and lifestyle and not politics. And if you want to break into the political world in the States, actually the market is not where you want it to be. And the market is not as big as you're hoping it's going to be.

29:32No, you're still, even though obviously there are many more people, you're dealing often with fringe markets or polarised markets. So the Telegraph of Pride to Build, they kept saying we want a million subscribers, we want a million subscribers, that's how they want to pay for their journalism. It's hard to know because a lot of these, and they have hit that at the end of last year, I think they hit their target of a million subscribers. But some of those are paying, you know, a pound for three months. And there is masses and masses of churn. I haven't seen anyone do, and I still think there's a place for this, is micropayment for articles.