Minecraft: A Huge Mess But A Huge Hit

24:27This episode is brought to you by Sky, where you can watch unmissable shows, which includes the new season of the multiple Emmy Award-winning Hacks starring Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder. We love Hacks so much. Absolutely love it. I'm so looking forward to this new series. For people who don't know Hacks, Marina, talk us through it a little bit. It's focused on the relationship between the older comedian who's played by Jean Smart, Deborah Vance, who's one of those real old showbiz troopers. She plays Vega, she does residency. She's sort of, yeah, almost like a Joan Rivers-y type character. Exactly.

25:00Old school. She's the boomer and Hannah Einbinder is a kind of Gen Z-er. It's really interesting on the stuff between the ages. Yeah, so she plays Ava Daniels who essentially becomes Deborah Vance's writer. Yeah. So she writes for very cool, very hip things. Having sort of been cancelled for a joke at the start. Yes. So we start in the culture war and we continue in it. But what I love about the show particularly is The absolute reverence for comedy and the graft and the craft of it. And what a tough kind of man's world it remains. Definitely, definitely. And so how hard it is to be a woman in that male-dominated industry.

25:34Yeah, amazing on showbiz, amazing on comedy, amazing on the industry, but also just the relationship between the two of them is a really lovely generational sort of, it's like a sitcom thing. It's very dramatic, but a lot of comedy in there as well. They've got some terrific gas stars in this season. They've got Helen Hunt, Tony Goldwyn, Eric Balfour and obviously the returning cast who are peerless. Yep, the mix of comedy and drama is spot on. You can watch season four of the Emmy Award winning Hacks right now on Sky.

26:05Hello, I'm William de Rimpel. And I'm Anita Arnand. And we are the hosts of Empire, also from Goalhanger. And we're here to tell you about our recent mini-series that we've just done on The Troubles. In it, we try to get to the very heart of the violent conflict in Northern Ireland that lasted from the 1960s all the way up to 1998. It's something that we both lived through and remember from our childhoods, but younger listeners may not know anything about it. And it's the time when there was division along religious and political lines. Neighbours turned against each other. Residential city streets became battlegrounds.

26:42Thousands were killed. And the IRA bombed London. It seemed as if an end was out of reach, but in 1998, a peace process finally brought those 30 years of violence to an end. But the memory of the Troubles is still present, not only within Northern Irish communities who experienced it, but in international relations and political approaches to peace. And new audiences are starting to understand this national trauma through films like Belfast and kneecap and TV shows like Derry Girls. In fact, our guest on the miniseries is Patrick Radden Keefe. Now, he's the author of the nonfiction book that inspired the hit TV drama, Say Nothing.

27:25It's one of my favourite books. It's, I think, the kind of in cold blood for our generation, extraordinary work of nonfiction. To hear the full series, just search Empire wherever you get your podcasts. This is a real good story about Bronx and his dad, Ryan, real United Airlines customers. We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and meet Captain Andrew. I got to sit in the driver's seat. I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age. That's Andrew, a real United pilot. These small interactions can shape a kid's future.

28:00It felt like I was the captain. Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way.

28:12Welcome back, everybody. Now, we are going to talk about Black Mirror, which comes back on Thursday of this week, which is obviously Charlie Brooker's amazing series. So Charlie, who started as a video games journalist and then created this sort of fake Radio Times listings page, which just seems like an ancient thing in an idea or anyway, called TV Go Home. And then he had a column in The Guardian. Then he began writing for television, a touch of cloth, all the screen wipes, news wipes. I mean, it's been an incredible journey, but I always think he's very interesting about it because it's wrong to suggest, oh, the technology's so evil.

28:50It's really a show about people because the technology, as he says, is neutral and it's the people who are using it and how we're becoming warped or not by it and how we're trying to claw something back from it anyway. Exactly. That's the season seven just coming out, as you say, starts on Thursday. They've gone a bit more old school again on this one. I think, you know, the last series, there's great kind of horror stuff, folk horror and things like that. This one is a bit more traditional. Black Mirror and the dangers of technology. But it's worth pausing, really, just to think what an extraordinary success this show has been.

29:25You know, so many enormous shows that come on every five seconds. And, you know, this started in 2011. And it's still such an extraordinary brand created by Charlie and by Annabelle Jones, his producer. And they've worked hand in hand on, you know, the whole lot all the way through. It started on Channel 4 and it went to Netflix. Jay Hunt commissioned it, who was head of Channel 4 at the time, commissioned so many huge hits that are still going now. We've talked a lot about, you know, Terrestrials not being able to afford to do big things. And I think Black Mirror might have been the very first example of how that was.

29:56And actually, when you look into it, and, you know, there was a split between Annabelle and Charlie and Channel 4 and whose fault was that. And actually, you look at it, it was no one's fault. Everyone did the right thing, I think, at the time. So Charlie and Annabelle had done a thing called Dead Set, which the brilliant Andy Nyman starred in, which was like a zombie thriller set in the Big Brother house. And, you know, it had been a huge success and they'd loved making it. And they, you know, it looked amazing, had this great scale. And they said, well, I wonder if we can do some sort of, you know, an anthology.

30:24Now, it's worth saying now that anthologies are the worst nightmare of every single TV channel that's ever existed. Well, that's what I, yeah, that's what I always think. It seems like, oh, it's just a different thing each week. I think it's so much more work. Well, it's so much more work for the people making it. It's so much more expensive for the people paying for it. And if you're... Just to be really clear, because you have to have a whole new load of sets, a whole new load of characters. A load of actors, the production. All of it. The whole thing is all standalone. There's no economy of scale, really, because each one has to be conjured from nothing.

31:00Exactly that. Which is why no one ever commissions it. And then people go, oh, yeah, but, you know, the Twilight Zone, which is the one that's most often talked about, the Twilight Zone was so wonderful and so successful. The Twilight Zone was cancelled more than almost any show in history. The Twilight Zone was constantly cancelled because it was really expensive and no one really watched it. We look back now and go, we've got this great library of Twilight Zones. Aren't they amazing? And, you know, some of them are. But, yeah, it was not something that people were particularly excited about.

31:24And go back and look at it because it was nothing like as expensive as this, even on its own terms. Exactly that. So Charlie has this idea, and Charlie and Annabelle go into Channel 4, and Channel 4, quite rightly, are not that excited about it. They're like, I don't know about this. Shane Allen, who was the head of comedy at Channel 4, said, oh, I'll do this Black Mirror thing. So it actually came through Channel 4 Comedy, which is a very peculiar place for it to come through. Obviously a lot less money there than drama. So it really was a big punt and took a huge amount of their budget as well.

31:52And that first series is hugely memorable for everyone. It started with National Anthem, which is the one with Rory Kinnear, where he is forced by blackmail to have sexual relations with a pig, which, of course, foreshadowed so much of British politics. So there was that and, you know, a couple of others. It was ludicrously expensive. But, you know, there was some buzz around it for sure. Oh, absolutely. It felt incredibly exciting. Amazingly directed. All three of them were very different. Amazingly directed. Great actors in them. Charlie is a wonderful writer. Annabelle, an incredible producer, very involved in the process.

32:26You know, I think Channel 4 realised that they had a sort of buzzy show on their hands. The return on investment wasn't really there. They did another series of it, at which point Channel 4 said, look, we have to get co-production money. We know this show is great. We know people love this show. We need to get co-production money. And Annabelle and Charlie had gone over to the States and seen everyone, really, seen all the networks. And they all went, no, it's an anthology show. Are you crazy? There's absolutely no way we will do this. We all know that anthology shows don't work. We all know they're too expensive.

32:53well you know it's essentially you know commissioning six standalone films instead of a series where you have returning characters and cliffhangers and you know catchphrases and stuff like that the stuff that tv is usually made of and so all the networks said no so netflix got the rights to show it in north america and in the rest of the world as well and you know didn't cost them an enormous amount of money and but it looks you know it looked great and so they showed it and that's when that's when everything changed it went absolutely crazy immediately because there's something about them that although you know they're very British and obviously Charlie and Annabelle have a very British sensibility there was something very worldwide about them the whole world they speak of the age that what's so interesting is that they really do seem to satirise the now via the 10 minutes into the future which is I suppose that your dream of all those kind of dystopian things you know when something's crossed over into a completely different realm of kind of buzz and reception when it sort of becomes the brand name for a feeling and people saying the whole time, oh my God, this is so Black Mirror.

33:52The Twilight Zone, people used to say, oh my God, it's like an episode of The Twilight Zone. And people do say things like, this is so mad, it's like an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm or something like that. I think that is almost the most mass market one I can think of, of everyone, because everyone is living in this time of incredible technology acceleration and to always have a word, to have two words for it, which are always like, oh my God, this is so Black Mirror. I know pretty much anything that's happened in politics in the last 10 years has been very Black Mirror-esque. So it goes out on Netflix.

34:21Suddenly everyone in America is going crazy. And more importantly, every single actor, writer and producer and director in America watches it and loves it because they recognise the job that Charlie and Annabelle have done. They recognise it's brilliant. Jay Hunt at Channel 4 and Shane Allen, all the people who've been involved, they've recognised there was this amazing thing. Channel 4 and Charlie and Annabelle go, let's do a Christmas one. And Jon Hamm comes on board, who's the first big star really to have been in one of these, big star and he came on it because it was coming off mad men i mean it was a huge thing to have someone do something like that and since then their leads have been i mean their leads are always really incredible yeah always interesting but bill hader had said to john ham you have to watch this show and so john ham had watched black mirror and just went like i mean of course i did and he did it for channel four regular rate like it like everybody else and you know uh and so he came and and did it and that's that christmas episode by the way one of my favorite ever black mirrors.

35:13So then they're in the situation where every single network in America is saying to Charlie and Annabelle we want the show. Oh I'm so sorry. Americans trying to say yes now. You know when we said we didn't want to do the show. Well you know now because every single dinner party we go to people it's all they talk about it. We would now like to do this. It had this huge buzz but it's still very very expensive for Channel 4. They can't really make it. So she said well look if we can get co-production so then they can. I think the one place Channel 4 didn't want a co-production with was Netflix because Jay is very perspicacious and she sort of knew that Netflix was the beast that was going to eat everything.

35:50And for Charlie and Annabelle, actually, because Netflix were able to say, here's an immediate six episode order. It can be any length you want, any genre you want. Here's the money, which is probably four times, five times the budget you would get on Channel 4. Here's the freedom. Would you like to sign up with us? It's sort of impossible to say no to that. So Jay has to say goodbye to it. It's the truth. You can't keep doing it, whether it would have been the phenomenon it is if it stayed on Channel 4. It's difficult to tell. You know, Charlie and Annabella... No, it wouldn't. I mean, I think it just definitely wouldn't.

36:23But, you know, they had the bravery to commission in the first place. They had the bravery to put out National Anthem as the first one. Yeah. So, you know, they are absolutely part of the, you know, architects of the success of Black Mirror. As I say, now we understand that Netflix comes in for things and, you know, prices other people out of the market. this is such a perfect early example of exactly that happening big hit show that was already on a terrestrial broadcaster terrestrial broadcaster cannot afford it netflix are able to come in throw a huge amount of money at it and throw a huge amount of creative freedom at it which also channel four are not able to do that's how they got everybody in yeah i think i think channel four said we might be able to find out some money we need to see all six ideas and you know which is like a year's work and yeah but we could just go to netflix and and not do it and yeah so ever Ever since then, it's been this phenomenon.

37:08You know, shows win Emmys all the time. So, you know, Sopranos will win Emmys every year. Frasier will win it every year because, you know, you know what you're getting. Black Mirror won Emmys three years in a row. But for shows that were entirely different, made by entirely different crews, entirely different genres. So San Junipero, which some people think is the greatest ever. I love it. Black Mirror won the Emmy. Then USS Callister, the Jesse Plemons one. Which they're doing a sequel of. They are doing in this new one. and then Bandersnatch, which I think is one of the greatest technical achievements.

37:40Unbelievable. There's a trillion different ways to watch it. They won Emmys three times in a row with things that are entirely different stories, entirely different actors. That they've brought up from the ground each time. For me, it's extraordinary in the way that something like the day-to-day right back in the 90s was, which is it sort of satirises the future and it somehow manages to stay ahead of things. As I say, everything's moving at such a pace and television, as we know, takes forever to make. I mean, it takes forever to make. So I wonder how... There must have been a couple of times where they've had an idea and in development shelved it because for some reason that particular area of our crapsack world has accelerated so quickly that you think this would actually look...

38:21We'll be looking back fondly on whatever this concept is. And they sort of gut things for parts and take things from other ideas. The one thing always anyone who's ever around Charlie or Annabelle is always, always saying, Oh, I had an idea for Black Mirror and they never worked. The hardest work I've ever seen anybody do on any show because they are making a whole series of movies at any given time. I think they're so amazing. Both of them. Everyone knows Charlie's amazing, but as you know, I think she's brilliant. Yeah, she's incredible. But one of them is always on the set. Yeah. They're absolutely hands-on all the time.

38:55It's an extraordinary achievement. So this new series, there's a follow-up to USS Callister, which is going to be very, very exciting. There's a sort of follow-up to Bandersnatch as well called Plaything, but no interactivity. I think the interactivity thing nearly killed them. I think it must have, yeah. There's a Paul Giamitti in something where you can walk into old photographs. Which people are already saying you're going to be able to do. All of it keeps pace so brilliantly. Yes, it really does, doesn't it? It's amazing. They're just sort of 18 months ahead. But they're much more than 18 months ahead because it takes so long to make.

39:26To make them as well. And it's funny to think back. I tell you the interesting sliding doors thing. When Charlie and Annabelle met at a company called Zepatron, which was like a comedy company, the other side of Zepatron went off and made What I Lie to You, which I think is a great programme on television. So you've got this group of amazing people. It was Charlie, Ben, Peter and Neil. When they started, Charlie was doing TV Go Home, you know, the fake listings thing, where I think the idea of having relations with a pig came from. Yeah, so they went off and did Black Mirror, this enormous sort of dystopian world-beating thing.

39:59and the other side of it, Peter Holmes especially, went off and made the most joyful, beautiful bit of funny television anyone's ever made. How lovely that it comes from a shared sensibility. But yeah, a huge British success story. People, of course, always want to say, oh, yeah, it's not as good as it was. And, you know, they'll never top this, but it's because they're doing all these six episodes and you know watch any season of Black Mirror and there's at least three of them that are heads and shoulders above pretty much anything else on television. And that will be the case this time as well, I'm sure.

40:28Yeah, because it's not so much a kind of visual aesthetic, although they do sort of cohere in lots of different ways, but it is a sort of a mood of the age. Well, the interesting thing is they have entirely different production teams on all of the different shows, different directors, different everything. So there's no, it's not like Inside Number Nine, where there's a shared team. It's, you know, everything is entirely different. As someone who likes to set his creative bar to easy mode in terms of how is this going to be difficult to do? And if it is, can I do a different idea that's going to be easier to do?

41:00That's why I love House of Games. I just knew I could sit in a room with a bunch of people and you'd have to worry about what the scores are particularly. And, you know, you just make it as much fun as possible. And Charlie and Annabelle, every single time, make things as difficult as possible for themselves. And it pays off in space. Every time. And every time I see them picking up Emmys or something, I think that's where this app, if you're brilliant and you have an incredible work ethic, that's where it gets you. We've done Minecraft. We've done Black Mirror. Where do we go from there? We're going to the Beatles, Richard.

41:29Oh, I've heard of them. Now, as I said earlier, there was CinemaCon, which is the event where all the studios take their best wares, their best upcoming wares to Vegas, and show them to the theatrical releases. But they do try to make it. I mean, they did some really, you try and get all the stars along. Everyone is sort of, you realise that people are still committed to putting things in cinemas, but obviously we're looking at a pretty gritty landscape. So, you know, Tom Cruise will turn up to talk about Mission Impossible Final Reckoning, but he did a minute's silence on stage for Val Kilmer, who, by the way, we've got a special episode on later this week, which I think will be for our members.

42:09What I find interesting about CinemaCon is that you don't get to see, the fans don't get to see anything. It's just for the business. Business to business. Okay, now look at Comic-Con, which has understood that it has this intense fan community and that you give something back. I'm going to get onto the Beatles in a minute, but this is giving you the landscape. And here, you know, they showed a trailer for Avatar. They showed a trailer for After the Hunt, which is the Luca Guadagnino film with Julia Roberts, a sort of post-Me Too thing, Andrew Garfield, Ayo Adiriri. I think, but you don't see any of these things.

42:41So you can see people writing down what happened or else journalists are properly banned from reporting it. They have lots of stars there, but it's mega, mega controlled because people don't necessarily want their client to be out there. Maybe they'll do some ad lib that will go. But actually, I would start saying, you guys have got to reach to understand the people who watch your films in cinemas are the fans. That thing I said at the Oscars, which when you watch at the Grammys, All they do is thank their fans from the winners. You never see anybody at the Oscars thank, you know, what Norma Desmond called all those wonderful people out there in the dark.

43:17I think that instead of just being so controlled, they're just going to have to try and reach out, make it more of an event, just try and get some buzz out. As you say, the buzz that people, the way that Minecraft achieves buzz, the way that other industries that are doing better achieve buzz. Especially as it is an industry thing that is specifically about movie theatres. and so if you're creating the buzz you're not creating buzz around IP or around you know actors it's literally buzz around what is going to come into a movie theatre which makes that much more an event if you're excited about the thing that is coming into a movie theatre and you're made to feel like excuse me as a ticket buyer that you actually matter if you're never thanked you don't feel like you're part of someone's fandom you don't feel like you're part of a community then why should you turn out why not wait till streaming Well, somebody who does really care about theatrical release is Sam Mendes.

44:09And he is doing something extraordinarily ambitious, which is bringing out four Beatles. But I don't want to say biography movies. It's set at a certain time and the way they all intersect, all the different stars. And he went to CinemaCon last week and they unveiled the casting. And it really is the fan four. I mean, yeah. So Harris Dickinson is John Lennon. And we know him from? So, Harris Dickinson, who you know from Baby Girl, is John Lennon. Paul Mescal, who you know from all sorts of things, is Paul McCartney. Barry Keoghan from Saltburn, Banshees of Nishreen, is Ringo Starr. And Joseph Quinn, who had his sort of breakout in the last series of Stranger Things, but is going to be in the Fantastic Four, is George Harrison.

44:54Someone said all four of them are sort of internet boyfriend types. Well, that's that way of talking about things. Yeah. I mean I suppose what you're trying to do is and they also did which I thought was quite unusual which you don't normally see when people have just sort of signed on for something they had a photo shoot of all of them I'm wearing a black jumper in honour of it today Richard all in black all together and then they were brought onto stage and they all said a line from Sergeant Pepper and it was there is a sort of these movies are by the way all coming out in April we don't quite know the release schedule but we know it is April 2028 April 2028?

45:31Yeah, I mean it's full movies There are some economies of scale but you know what, anyway but these particular actors and there are other actors who have something of that quality but they are really sort of viral ones who are obviously they're always in fan edits you can sort of see that there's going to be an attempt and there's an inevitable mania that will be created a little bit around seeing them all together. What could they call it? Yeah. Putting them all together does make them seem greater than some of their parts. And all of these things are designed to sort of create a buzz because, you know, this is a huge sort of theatrical event.

46:14Funnily enough, Sony Pictures is being done with Sony. Sony Pictures and the chair, Tom Rothman, said, this is the first bingeable theatrical experience. Now, you know, there's an element of this that is a sort of art house... It's not supposed to be art house because you want everyone to want to go and see it. It's like they want to go and see Barbie or Oppenheim or whatever it may be. But there's something sort of slightly franchisable about it. Like to say this is something different. I'd say what would be a bingeable theatrical franchise showing television and cinemas. OK. Strangely, they didn't talk about that at CinemaCon, but as you know, you're doing a presentation next year where you explain this.

46:53With Paul Mescal. The medium that's eaten you, Why don't you put it on in your television, in your theatres? You might as well, right? Yeah, okay. Well, I look forward to your presentation. Right now we're talking about the Beatles one. Okay. Anyway, so it is a sort of, you know, you're trying to create a sort of release phenomenon, that thing where people feel like, oh, they must have, you know, I have to see this and I have to have a view on it. But Tom Rothman did actually also say, this is slightly giving me Avatar flashbacks because he oversaw that when he was at Fox. Oh, really? And that was, yeah.

47:23So it's a big beast. it's quite black mirror-y in that there's four separate although presumably there's a shared aesthetic Yes, yes and there's a well he's directing them all but there's something interesting you said to me about Beatles questions in your time on Pointless Yes, I always find it fascinating Pointless tells you an awful lot about what people actually know about and you show pictures of famous people and you know because you ask a hundred people you find out exactly who is well known and who is not well known You said they didn't know about movies in general No one knows about movies Anymore No one knows who writes books.

47:56No one knows anything about who was in movies. They sort of know about television. They know about pop music. That's about it. But yeah, towards the end, so at the beginning of Pointless, you know, if you had a Beatles question up there or McCartney or Lennon, you know, you'd be up in the high 80s. And then as the years went by, firstly, you'd say to someone, you know, it's about the Beatles, you know, are you a fan of the Beatles? And people under 25 would go, I don't really know who they are. I have heard of them, but I don't really know them. And you didn't see that at the beginning of the series.

48:29It was something that came in. And also the scores for Beatles, things would start going down. Still much bigger than pretty much anyone else, you know, you could find from their era. But, you know, they were coming down and down and down. And I was thinking it's interesting that every generation has their, the thing they go to. I think, you know, the generation who fought in the Second World War grew up on cowboy movies. because it was a thing that happened sort of 40, 50 years before them and was iconic. And then our generation, funnily enough, grew up on Second World War movies, war films, because it was something that happened 40 years ago and it was something that could be mined.

49:05And now there's so much Beatles stuff around and it feels almost like the Beatles of the Second World War for this generation. That's really interesting. I think people not knowing so much about them. but that's the thing is because we didn't you know the Second World War so much of what we learnt from it was from films obviously we got grandparents and stuff like that in the same way we can talk to grandparents about the Beatles but the showing on television made everything kind of you know made that tale much much longer and it feels like the Beatles now will live forever because we're starting to go we mustn't forget we mustn't forget what happened and it's creatively that's a really interesting position to be able to be in to say oh let me illuminate them for you completely differently for a different generation because I'd seen the biographer Hunter Davis the band's official biographer said on the Today programme maybe quite recently the strange thing about the Beatles is that the longer we get from them the bigger they become I don't think that's true and I think the appeal of this is that you can I'm stunned by how many people young people I've seen say I don't really know anything about Bob Dylan and after a complete unknown and I've done a deep dive into his music.

50:17It's like, oh, wow, okay. And that was quite a small movie. This is obviously... Yeah, huge. With the four biggest young stars in the world, apart from Timothee Chalamet, who couldn't be in it because he's French. Although he is Bob Dylan. But also, yeah, he couldn't be in it because he's Bob Dylan. You can't put Bob Dylan in the Beatles. It's interesting. God knows I've tried. Bob Dylan didn't mind what they did with his life. He's one of those people who just said, do what you like. But it'd be interesting to see how the Beatles, kind of, the surviving Beatles, kind of think about this. But I think the best thing you can always do is just say, make what you will.

50:52Make what you please. And there'll be a sort of greater treat in some ways than if you're trying to sort of really kind of stick to a particular line. But one interesting thing is that nonetheless, and it's such a sterile way to talk about it, but this is the age we live in. The Beatles are nonetheless IP. Yes, they are. They are a form of IP. They really are. And this is the first narrative feature feature that's been granted the music rights to their catalogue and all of those things. So there's been lots of movies before. Backbeat is a great movie about the Beatles. Nowhere Boy was about the Beatles.

51:23But yeah, this is the first one. This is like the full theatrical. It's got everything that you could want from the Beatles. Well, they're trying to create event cinema and they're trying to create something that enough people feel like, oh, they can't miss. And you'll get all those things. There'll be memes about the marathon of it, like going in again for number four or whatever. But that's what you want. that's what you need in order to create, you know, in the same way that Bob and Heimer happened as a sort of organic, you need there to be that kind of euphoria, the need to have an opinion on it, like everyone felt they had to have an opinion on adolescence, the need to get the backlash.

51:56Do you see the amazing thing where was it Nick Ferrari was saying to Kemi Badenock, have you seen Adolescence? She said no, he said well you should, he was like really saying, I think it's a dereliction of your duty that you haven't watched it. That you haven't watched it. She's like, I don't have to watch everything on Netflix. Yeah, and I saw, you know, those people descent, you know, like that, what's his name, that spiked, the sort of high wanker at Spike, who had to descend down and be the contrarian thing and say, you know, I mean, really, on the pages of Spite, you're writing a contrarian thing saying that Stephen Graham's done something bad to the working class.

52:27Oh, how's he now? Please do have a listen to yourself, honestly. But you need all the backlash, you need all of that stuff, really, to create these organic moments. And it's a long time until 2020, and there will be, but having chosen those particular of four stars. Amazing. And they've all got different projects coming up very different. You're hoping that that alchemy happens all the time and that there's a sort of mania about seeing them together. And I do think that the observation that actually the Beatles, the anti-Hunter Davis observation, or not anti-Hunter Davis, he's a brilliant man, but this idea that actually their memory has got fainter and fainter I think is actually a huge strength because there's obviously still an enormous amount of people who know the Beatles were the greatest band of all time.

53:13And a younger generation would be like, oh yeah, I sort of know the name. And then they will see these four kids and then they'll go to the movie and the music stays the music. The song remains the same. And so I think it's one of those things where a new generation will find this band for themselves. And that gives you another 50 years, doesn't it? Well, let's hope so. I think we've done quite a lot on cinema this episode. But one of the things, I spoke to a few people who were at CinemaCon, different people who were at CinemaCon last week, and I did get the distinct vibe from all of them. They all said that anyone having a hit now is good.

53:53Bear in mind, this is like the old, well, is it the Gore Vidal quote? You know, it's not enough for me to succeed. My friends must fail. That is sort of, things are in such a parlour state that actually you want hits even if rival studios are having hits. and that's something different than has always been the history of Hollywood is that lots and lots of people just want anyone to have hits now because they want it all to be kept alive. And, you know, going for a big swing like this, well, why not? Yeah, absolutely. Any recommendations this week? I've been so looking forward to recommending this book for you, which I have known about.

54:28By the way, this is such a funny book. I got sent this, someone wrote to me and I've got a quote on the cover of this book in case you're looking and thinking. Someone wrote to me and said, I've written a book and I'm writing a book. I wonder if you'd consider giving a quote, looking at it when it comes out. And I thought, well, maybe I'll finish it. Anyway, it did come. But he did also say, I've given my advance to War Child, an amazing charity who deal with children in conflict zones, and I'm giving all the profits to War Child. So when the book came, I thought, I'm really going to have to read this one because of the War Child thing.

54:59Anyway, it's called The Accidental Soldier by Owen Mulligan. Okay. Honestly, by page five, I'm like, Sorry, who the hell is this guy? This is so funny. It is the story. He's in the TA, in the Territorial Army, in 2006. And he actually gets sent to Iraq. He obviously thinks he's going to be doing, he's very clever, something to do with maps or something. He is leading a fighting unit in Basra. Can I say after that, it is so funny. I laughed out loud. It's a genuinely funny book. He is a first-time author. The book is out this Thursday. Pre-orders matter so much to First Time Wonders. You know this.

55:36Yeah, huge. It is such a good and funny book. It is absolutely fascinating into the world of what it was actually like. And, you know, there's a whole world of the army. It's very, very funny. I mean, people in the army I always find are quite funny. But this is just genuinely brilliant. And with a real gut punch, you know, it's incredible. I really, really recommend this book. Owen Mulligan. The Accidental Soldier. I was going to do a recommendation I'll save it till next week because that I went on so long I'm so sorry no absolutely not but that's so heartfelt and it's as you say anyone if you like the sound of it buying it now is worth more to Owen Muddergan than buying it in three weeks buy it in three weeks if you want to yeah it's so good it's so funny okay question and answers on Thursday very much so Richard look forward to seeing you then see you next Thursday you can remember there's a catchphrase and also as you said a bonus on Friday celebrating the life and times of Val Kilmer.

56:32A lot of very interesting stories in there. That's for our members. If you want to sign up, it's therestisentertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you anyway on Tuesday. Oh, my God. On Thursday, maybe? On Thursday. Yeah, because today's Tuesday. I'm so confused, aren't I?

56:59Well, that wraps up another episode of The Restless Entertainment brought to you by our friends at Sky. Now, what have you got on your must-watch list at the moment, Rachel? At the moment, White Lotus enjoying the latest season of that. Oh, it's such a treat. Oh, my God, it's incredible. It's so good. A dark treat. A dark treat. The visuals are really great and with your Skyglass TV you'll be able to enjoy it all in its 4K glory And also the built-in soundbar means you can also listen to it in its full whatever the sound version of 4K glory is But it sounds immense, I'll say that It is indeed, it brings everything to life and it really gives that cinema experience at home It feels like Jason Isaacs is in your house Like sometimes I go downstairs and I'm like, Jason Isaacs, come on man God bless you please But he's not there But for our listeners who want to experience this with Sky Glass too, visit sky.com to find out more.