Prince Andrew and The Inbetweeners

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1:52Hello and welcome to this episode of the Restless Entertainment Questions and Answers Edition. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Osman. And you are our wonderful listeners. And we have a number of your questions. Hi, Richard. Sorry. I was saying hello to the listeners. Yeah, I know. There are more of them than there are of you. That's like when I'm putting this, I used to say, well, then if you've got that at home, rather than well done for getting that Xander. Because I figured that, you know, there's only one other guy. Come on, hit me with a question. Okay. I have a question from Chris Lindsay.

2:23he says Virginia Dufresne's memoir has come out and probably contains allegations that the royal family would prefer weren't published correct who gets sued in this hypothetical posthumous defamation case this has been a big topic of conversation this whole book for obvious reasons and the fallout for Prince Andrew who's actually one of the only men named in the book which and it's had by the way very very good reviews and very very good sales as well and fantastic sales Virginia Dufresne is one of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. She was trafficked by him. And she's famously the 17-year-old runaway girl in a picture which has the Duke of York's arm around her and Jolaine Maxwell kind of grinning in the background.

3:12Duke of York at the time. Yeah, Duke of York at the time. The erstwhile Duke of York. And the picture was taken by Jeffrey Epstein. Anyhow, he's made a number of claims about that photo, including that it isn't real. Julian Maxwell said it isn't real. There's been absolutely zero proof that the photo isn't real. So anyway, the book has a publisher, which is Knopf, which is a division of Penguin Random House. And so it's been published in the book. And these claims, as I say, there's a reason that other men aren't named. And there's a reason you can name Prince Andrew. and then the first extract of it was run in The Guardian and all of the fallout of that has been now extremely widely reported.

3:54He could sue. Prince Andrew could still sue and believe me, every single one of these extracts and the book has gone through masses of lawyering and he could still sue. Normally, you could of course have a claim against the person who had made the allegations as well as the publisher of those allegations because you can always pursue an individual themselves. But in this case, Virginia Giuffre obviously tragically took her own life earlier this year. And so she's no longer around to be the subject of a claim at that. But her publisher could be. During the Noel Clark case, which was won by The Guardian, we talked about the two ways you can defend something and it's best if you can do it both ways.

4:35One, on the basis it's true. And second, that the claims are so significant they have a public interest in publishing them. So you could definitely defend it in this way. the thing with Prince Andrew is it's quite interesting you will still notice that in our press as I always say in America you can write almost what you want but in our press our libel laws are very difficult you will always see that he's been given a right of reply they haven't replied but it will always say that they've been approached for comment and any single new thing one tiny line from the book if you're rerunning anything and it's a new thing you must go and do the right of reply.

5:14But I suppose when you're asking in the notional defamation case, what is libel? Libel is that someone being able to prove that their reputation has been damaged by the publication of something. And there's a certain, we've got to a stage with Prince Andrew now where does he have a reputation to defend? And you have to decide that that reputation would have been materially damaged by the thing he's suing on. Also, is he going to sue everybody? I mean, you can't just sue sort of one. you sort of have to sue everyone who's published. Where would you even start with this one? If that photo hadn't existed, by the way, I don't think this story would ever have taken off in the way that it had.

5:51Agreed. There's something about that photo. You know, she's so young in it. There's something about the existence of that photo that honestly, I think they would have denied everything. It's the only one, by the way. We don't see lots of photos. We see aerial views of this island of Jeffrey Epstein. We don't see pictures at all. And this wasn't taken on his eye then. This is in London. No, no, this is in London. But it has the main players. You can't see any pictures from this story. And you don't think they exist? Because I think it's very interesting how he made his money at all. Because as you always find, you know, as people always say, he didn't trade with anybody.

6:21All these great big financial people in New York say, I don't understand how this guy became so rich because he never traded with anybody. Hmm, I wonder. And to be clear, so what are the allegations in the book? The allegations in the book are an expansion and a different form of writing. Because before she was making accusations, and then this is a memoir. She's written it with the help of a journalist. And so the allegations are that she was required to have sex with him once when that picture was taken in London. She participated in an orgy with him with around eight other girls on the island, on Jeffrey Epstein's island.

6:53And there's one other time she had sex with him. And he can issue legal proceedings. However, what is a very special case with this particular person is we know the royal family are against getting involved in any legal proceedings at all. and they always find a way of not having things come to court. And that goes for when the Queen suddenly remembered a conversation that Paul Barrow had taken lots of Giants things for safekeeping in his attic. Okay. Anyway, that case didn't come to court for whatever reason. And the case of when in the civil court, when Virginia Dufresne sued the Duke of York, he ended up paying what's always reported as£12 million in damages.

7:37so he continues to deny anything happened at all we must run that denial within this story of us even talking about this Did he admit where he got£12 million from? No he didn't What's happened over the last couple of weeks with the publication of this book and the massive kind of farming of extracts from it is that people have taken the view in this country particularly rather than the US where as I say the rules are different that he won't sue because he has already done everything not to get into a courtroom and by the way sometimes newspapers will settle themselves in a case like this. Why would you settle with this guy?

8:11You want to push it all the way to the courtroom because the chances are he will fold before he ever gets there. How loose the royal family want to cut him is another part of this story. And so they will always try and keep this out of any courtroom. And he would probably want to keep it out of any courtroom because you're just going to... All these other people, there are other victims coming out now saying that they remember all sorts of different things. And this is what's going to happen. And primarily, though, the law of defamation is about someone's reputation being materially damaged by a thing that was published.

8:42Can we honestly say that this has made it any worse? Maybe it's made it an infinitesimal part worse, but it was already so bad that the judge would say, well, you don't have a reputation to defend. And in some cases, this is why people used to get these libel awards of a pound or whatever, because people would say you were not harmed by the publication. This is just a nonsense. And so I think it would be very, very, very, very difficult for him to win in court. So people have taken the view. However, it remains possible that he could launch proceedings. And in the specific terms of the question, were he to do that and hypothetically, were he to win damages?

9:15Who would he win those damages against? He'd win them from Knopf, who published the book, they are the publishers, and he'd win them from anyone who published, anyone he sued who published the claims. Sometimes you'll find that claimants will sue one publication because they kind of hate them. and you'll say, but hang on a second, it also was run by The Sun, the this, the that, you know. And if they're only pursuing one, that doesn't look great. They have to kind of go after everyone. Otherwise, people are saying, oh, maybe it's just a vendetta against one title. You know, everyone published this story.

9:44There is great safety in numbers, obviously. But would there be a liability for Virginia G. Frey's estate? No. For her co-writer? The person who publishes is liable. Unless it's a tech company, apparently. But if it had been the other way around, so if Chris and Lindsay were talking about that someone had written a book about somebody who was dead. Well, you can't libel the dead at all. You can't libel the dead at all. As we've always said, you cannot libel the dead. So you could have written anything about her at all now and someone could still do that. And you can't do anything about that. You cannot libel the dead.

10:16But yeah, but Prince Andrew could sue. You almost can't libel Prince Andrew is what, is probably the conclusion here. It'd be fascinating to see the amount of titles that get taken off him. It's interesting, isn't it? Because how far do they cut him loose? as you say you want to keep him close enough that he's still relying on you but far enough away that he doesn't reflect on you yes except i think you know this is an unfashionable opinion but i don't think you can i think the abdication was a mistake and that's not very long ago in the great scheme of the existence of the british royal family and you know whatever it is 90 years ago if you're starting to say oh we can swap in personnel if they don't work out we don't like them we sack them we get some different people in then you're just like any other business so do you just say i still i believe the abdication was a mistake yes i did wow i didn't think we were going there Yeah, if no one asked the question, do you believe the application was a mistake?

11:02But there we go, I've just given my answer free. Wow, thank you. Thank you, Dominic Sandbrook. Yeah, you're welcome. Once you allow it to look like something that's just kind of like another business, where you get rid of the ones that don't work, I think the royal family is weird and special, so you have to just keep them all. You have to play the hand that you're dealt. You think so, like nearly 100 years later, you think it's still a big issue? No, I'm saying that in 400 years' time when we don't have a monarchy anymore and people look back at where the gate was opened, it will be the abdication.

11:32I honestly think if you can replace Martin Fowler twice, you can replace a king. That's huge. I mean, we'll have EastEnders still in 400 years time, I can assure you of that fact. Yeah, we'll be on Martin Fowler 17. Right. An extreme shift in tone here as we move to the Inbetweeners, Richard. Sean Lamb says, what do you think of this potential Inbetweeners reboot? If you were in the writer's room, how would you make it funny? yeah I mean we read about everything being rebooted every five seconds the in between is written by Ian Morrison, Damon Beasley you've got the four main cast members if at any point in the next 50 years those six people want to get together and write the story about those four friends then I will watch it oh so will I because it's brilliantly written by Ian and Damon brilliantly acted by those four, all of whom are kind of friends in real life.

12:26If, you know, Ian and Damon want to sell the rights to the name Inbetweeners, and, you know, they want to cast new people, then absolutely all bets are off. It could literally turn into anything. So anytime anything is rebooted, you have to go, has someone just bought the name? In which case, I mean, it could be terrible. I mean, who's bought it? If it's the people themselves, I think in this case, Ian and Damon have both said, yeah, we'll absolutely get together with the boys and do something. I think that how lovely to have a show i mean that you know those guys were not 16 when they were making the show they were they were older than that but i think they pulled off looking younger um fairly well they've all gone on to do very very varied and very very interesting things uh in in in their own right but how lovely to think maybe every 10 15 years forever you can get back together and do stuff and do stuff you suddenly you're you know you can watch them as old men and you know so I think it's absolutely one of those things with any reboot is what do you mean by reboot?

13:27Is it the original people? In which case it is not a reboot. It's like going from The Likely Lads to whatever happens to The Likely Lads both works of genius because it's the same writers it's the same performers and I know they're not at school anymore but that show is not funny because they're at school that show is funny because Ian and Damon are funny. But also it can be brilliantly done that if you look at something like The Combat with Lisa Kudrow that the huge gaps between seasons of that, it's really interesting sort of what happens. You're not sort of picking up, it's a deliberate huge time jump.

13:59I think those things can be really interesting so it could be brilliant. I really hope they do it. There's so many books that follow the same characters over 50, 60, 70 years, which of course you can't really do so much in film and television. It's much harder to do because of the ageing process. But you definitely can do over 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Oh God, it's got so much potential. But there are six people there, all of whom are making a great deal of money in lots and lots of different ways. The last thing Ian Morris did was that amazing My Oxford Year on Netflix, which is like, I mean, it's very, listen, you wouldn't think that that and The Inbetweeners were made by the same person.

14:35But I think that I would love to see what Ian and Damon did with The Inbetweeners. And if all four of those boys want to do it, and if the two writers want to do it, then I think we've got an absolute treat in store. it won't be set in a school okay just to warn you that that this that they have gone beyond that stage but it'll be about life and it'll be about four people and it'll be about what people do after school and how people who are close friends 10 15 20 years ago go and do very different things and then suddenly they're brought back into each other's you know orbit Edgar Wright movie the world's end yeah which is a one vision of how it how it how it can how it can go well anyone Anyone who's ever been to a 15-year reunion from their school and seen the various different paths you can take in your life can immediately see whether comedy comes from there.

15:26And Ian and Damon will be able to see whether comedy comes from there. So I think that, to me, feels like a piece of very, very good news. Right. Shall we go to a break, Richard? I would love that.

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17:45welcome back everyone now can i say thank you to martin naylor for an amazing segue martin thank you i know you didn't realize it was a segue but we've just come off the adverts and martin asks what is your favorite telly advert of all time i love this question and That feels like a whole episode. I've thought really hard about this because I've always been really interested in advertising. I'm afraid I don't think adverts are what they used to be for obvious reasons. There's not so much time. I love that. Adverts aren't what they used to be. Well, actually, by the way, one of mine is obviously the Hovis 1973 advert.

18:21Both of mine are directed by Ridley Scott, which I think is interesting because Ridley Scott was a big commercials director. it listen honestly 1973 feels like remarkably modern given your talk of the abdication i feel like i'm dragging you towards a mistake and i'll take a tv advert out to say so yeah abdications not for me thanks love right okay the hovis advert is i'm always interested in the stories behind the adverts and why they work and what you know i'm fascinated by david ogilvy as a kind of person if you haven't read any of the ogilvy books they're so interesting on how you sell to people we've talked about them on the podcast before but so the hovers advert 1973 which i think it's a collett dickinson pierce and what it does is that's an advertising agency so obviously either that or solicitors but what it did what it did brilliantly was that it create it's the one where um by the way i don't know any classical music except for classical music from the adverts and that's dvorak and it's the one where he's pushing the bike up the hill and it looks like a pit village It's not actually a pit village.

19:21It's Shaftesbury in Dorset, isn't it? Yeah. And it creates nostalgia for a time that either didn't exist or we didn't know it ourselves. And that's a really big advertising technique. And what David Ogilvie, the master of advertising, would say is what was great is it drove a huge increase in sales. That's what it has to be. It's about did it actually sell things? That's all it does, right. And if it doesn't and it's a piece of art, then you're just wanging on about something and you might as well like art, OK? So I love... You might as well like art. No, you might just go on about liking art or whatever.

19:53Advertising is supposed to sell you something. That's worse. You know that's worse. You might as well go on about liking art. No, but advertising is supposed to sell you something and it's a different discipline and so you should think about that. Anyway, so they created this fake heritage. It genuinely feels like you're talking to someone very specific. So you should think about that. Because I don't think you're talking to me because I don't think I bang on about art a lot. I mean, I like art. You like it. You know what you like. I know what I like. You know what you like. But yeah, I feel like that was directed at somebody.

20:18Okay, so right. Yeah, listen, so Ridley Scott directs this. It creates the Force Nostalgia. It does masses and masses of sales. Funnily enough, you know, even in Gladiator, which is not an advert, what they were going to have, they wanted to have a scene that illustrated how Maximus was getting bigger than the emperor and they were going to have him, the emperor was going to go down and open some new building in the financial district, the Forum or whatever it may be. And then there's going to be a huge picture of Big Rossi Crow advertising some olive oil on the... Who's going to say that? Paint it over, paint it over.

20:52But in the end, they decided they wouldn't do that because it wasn't necessarily historically accurate because gladiators did advertise things, but they were still enslaved, so it didn't really count. So that is one... So they advertised like painted adverts on the side of buildings and stuff? It's not totally clear. And so Russell Crowe was like, I don't think people are going to buy this because it's just too sort of on the note. Anyway, so it didn't end up in the finals. Didn't have Vodafone written across his... shield they did have things on the chariots yes they had olive oil brands they had all sorts of stuff not not not vodafone mercedes yeah yes yes so that's one my other one is also ridley scott and because this is absolutely amazing and i remember seeing this and it was like a sort of weird film um and that is um apple 1984 is the super bowl advert so we always have to be obsessed with super because everyone's more obsessed by the way raiders beat washington that particular year but no one cares because it wasn't very interesting super bowl but what was in large part this ad was um it just completely shifted the conversation and steve jobs was asked someone said you know can you do an ad for the super bowl he's like what's the super bowl hold on steve um i've never seen the super bowl and they're like well it's quite a big thing anyway um and so it was um lee clow at chai day and ridley scott they said okay hang on a second they were a year and a half after blade run had come out and everyone was thinking a lot about technology and whether it could be used for good or for real.

22:19I mean, not much changes. And he wanted a real... It was used for good in the end, wasn't it? Yeah, it was used for real good. Yeah, it was used for good. I thought it was, yeah. And Apple were a huge part of that. Yeah. And he wanted a strong woman because it was, you know, they were inspired. Ridley Scott also, he wanted a strong, powerful woman. Think of all the things he ends up making, Ripley or Thelma Louise or whatever it is. So they thought they would use 1984 because it was 1984 as a sort of hook for the ad. Where did they get their ideas from? Yeah, well, so they wanted, but it was amazing when you think about it now that a populist, a completely populist, like mega, mega ad that's going out in the Super Bowl could lean so heavily on a work of literary fiction.

22:59And that you could, people would say, oh, I know what that is. I don't think you could do that now. I don't think 1984 as a literary property would mean the same as it did then. But they had this print ad and it was basically individuals versus corporations because they wanted to position themselves as the plucky young upstart against IBM. And if you remember, what happens is this woman running and there are all these they had to have all these people who look like the huddled masses and the kind of the people who are downtrodden by Big Brother. and she ends up smashing Big Brother. But they had to hire people who either would like to have their head shaved or, and I'm sure you can see where this is going, already were skinheads.

23:40So quite a lot of those people who are the kind of shaven-headed, kind of controlleys of Big Brother at that point, I think were basically neo-Nazis. But this advert, when it came... Every single person who lived in my town had shaved hair in 1986 because they were filming a war film at the Bluebell Railway, which is just up the road from us. And we'd all just left school. And the advert went in the job centre and everyone, I was away. So I didn't do it. But yeah, I came back and everyone was a skinhead. I need to understand what's happened here. Well, anyway, but it was a completely, I mean, it's strange what's happened.

24:19And I don't know if you'd really think of Apple any longer as the plucky little art star against the horrible big corporations. but it exploded into people's conscience in that it sold huge amounts of units and I think the story behind it is really interesting so those two and both directed by Ridley Scott which tells you how you needed to tell a story in an incredibly short space of time and so I'd probably say those but there are other ones I love TV advertising so there are other ones that just kind of make you think I'm always trying to find old ones that I remember on YouTube and there's so many that you can't find and a lot of them are bad as well it turns out I'll go back to What were you going for?

24:55I'm going to go to the 1930s. I'm not going to go to the 1930s because I'm not you. I'm going to go to 2022. And we're talking about telling a story in a short period of time. It's like when you read a great short story. But someone who within, I think it's a 60-second long advert, the John Lewis Christmas advert, I know, keep listening, when you see a middle-aged dad and he's trying to learn to skateboard. I know what this is. This guy's just trying to learn to skateboard. and at the end a foster child comes in with a skateboard and he's got a skateboard under his arm and just goes, oh yeah, I skate a bit.

25:28And it's such a beautiful idea, beautifully realised, very, you know, very, very undemonstrative. It's just a beautiful thing about what human beings can do for other human beings. And, you know, it doesn't make me want to go shopping John Lewis. You know, the chocolates do that. But it's just, that to me is telling a story in one minute. But it's a rarity in those Christmas adverts are actually one of the only places where the budget and the amount of time they're going to buy allows you to create these things that actually were almost sort of to a penny in the 60s, 70s, 80s. And we used to watch those sort of things all the time.

26:05Now you've got such little time. The Christmas ads can still do that. And it is that thing that, you know, one has to sell. You say, well, how is that selling? How's that selling? But actually, everything is context. Advertising knows that. So if you've got a print ad, it's a certain thing. If you've got a print ad you're aware there is a mood abroad which is we would like everything to be better than it was we would like to regroup we would like the world to be a better place and so actually that is the perfect advert well it was fun last year when we did a roundup and what they were all saying we must do that again this year because it really is a sort of mark to market isn't it it's a look at state of the name christmas ads are state of the nation but interesting to see what they come up with this year we'll take another look this year yeah uh but i would love it if any of our members or any of you would like to write and tell us what your favourite adverts were because that feels like that would be a very good bonus episode.