Sex Playlists - A Deep Dive

29:05And, you know, it's gone completely viral. Obviously, the way that some people talk about it is so repulsive. It really reminds me of the noughties and the way that incredibly thin women then who obviously all had major eating disorders were spoken about without any form of humanity, just like a sort of freak show. And anyway, it's interesting. The platforms have tried to pull back on this stuff because we know that sort of pro-anorexia content, pro-any of this sort of stuff, they have tried to pull back. TikTok and places have tried to put guardrails in place. I mean, the trouble is with all of those platforms, if this is something that you are desperately seeking out, you will find a way around that.

29:48But they're trying, at least. They're recognising that it's an issue, that teens especially are trying to look at content about anorexia, eating disorders, and things like that, and they're actively seeking it out. But I felt that they couldn't even beat it in this case. It's like this is such a tidal wave that it has beaten the algorithm. You can't move on all the different platforms for seeing people talking about it. and anyway so one of her representatives has said that she will be taking a step back from visibility after her tour because of the public facing work and appearances have led to endless ongoing public scrutiny and this is what this is about it's about nothing else so even things that she was going to do like she was they I mean a really big show they were doing with Jonathan Bailey who's her Wicked co-star Sunday in the Park with George right she was going to do which would have been incredible.

30:41Unbelievable. She's not doing that. And I absolutely think that the discourse is completely relentless on it and a massive percentage of it is completely without humanity. Yeah, as you say, there's an interesting thing in the middle of this, which is we are strongly anti the policing of women's bodies and appearances and things like that, and that's an important part of our culture. But equally, if we do think there's something dangerous in the middle of our culture, which actually adds to the issues of being a teen of either gender, then do you speak up? And so I think a lot of people are slightly on the horns of a dilemma as to whether this is something they want to talk about.

31:23And certainly whether they want to use her as a poster girl for it, because that feels unfortunate as well. But it's impossible to look at some of the ways that she is portrayed without thinking about this issue without thinking about, you know, without speaking about it. And certainly anyone with teenage children, you're like, well, I mean, this feels like an opportunity to have a conversation, but you don't want to put it all on Ariana Grande. Yeah, it's very difficult. You know, and we live in a world where people have very impressionable children and teenagers who follow and idolize these people.

31:56And a lot of people have disclosed eating disorders in the past. You know, everyone, Taylor Swift, Victoria Rebecca, Kesha, all these different people. And I've said this quote so many times before in this podcast, but you know, no snowflake considers itself part of the avalanche. And everyone saying a comment doesn't really, you can't imagine how difficult it must be to be her at the middle of it all. In 2023, Ariana Grande said, we should be gentler and less comfortable commenting on people's bodies. However, I have to say I am of the view that some comment is, as you sort of hint, morally required sometimes.

32:34And it's incredibly complex. You know, I had an eating disorder myself in my early 20s. It's, you know, they really thrive on secrecy. I do think that the sort of body positivity is quite a simplistic creed. And it's not one of those things. Everyone There was a point, you know, in a few years ago when people said, oh, it's very, very simple. We just celebrate everybody. And I'm afraid that, you know, that's too simplistic, really. And health and example, whether asked to be an example or not, does matter. You don't get it, anorexia, from women being thin and models being thin or all the things that in the past of people have said.

33:14But it's born of lots and lots of complex things. but it's particularly a desire to control an overwhelming world. They do make it worse. These images like this and all of this. So I think you do have to talk about it, but it's very, very hard. Obviously, some of the ways that some people talk about it where it's just some sort of joke and you're literally joking about someone who may or may not be very ill. That's completely unhelpful. I do think obviously everyone has to leave her alone now. but I don't think you should leave the issues raised alone and it's very very hard for people to get help in both here and in the US and I think you have to talk about these things and I find it very difficult it's hard you know that's the trouble of being a public figure you are a public figure to some degree and I think it's too simplistic to say we can't discuss it at all because yeah and if you are in a situation as a as a teen or even younger or older where you are looking for some sort of control and your life has spiraled and you can see the examples and culture of very very thin women that is an avenue you think oh maybe that's a way maybe that feels like something i can control uh and so as you say it's not the fault of a thin woman that other people become anorexic but having that example out there at all gives you an avenue it gives you a gives you a you know i mean i've spoken a lot about my disordered eating and that started when i was very young nine or ten and it comes from well what can you control when you're nine or ten or 12 or 13 not an awful lot is the truth but one thing you can control usually is food that's the one thing that you know whether it's eating more of it or eating less of it it's it's a very very simple thing to control when you're a kid when you can't control almost anything else and so i do think it's important we talk about it as you say ariana grande it's fascinating because of course she denies that she has an issue but when you're talking about all those women who have you know later admitted that they had issues they all denied it at the time because you do deny it at the time that's not her nothing she's not doing anything wrong by denying it of course you deny it because you don't even want to you don't want to think about it you don't want to talk about it you don't want to admit it feel shame about it so she doesn't want to admit it and that's fine maybe in 10 years time she'll say actually at the time there was an issue but if we can elevate the debate slightly and just sort of say we understand in our culture there are people who are thinner than they might be.

35:38In the manosphere, we talked about looks maxing and all that kind of stuff. There are versions of bodies out there which teenagers of any gender can look at, which probably are not the healthiest versions of bodies that they could have. And given that food is something that kids can control in some way, it's worth having a conversation about it. It's certainly worth kids being able to talk about it as well. Yeah, I don't think you can ignore it, but you can just choose how you do it. But I think she must be left alone now because that's what she's asked for. Well, listen, we all wish her well.

36:11And hopefully there are conversations that can be had. Hopefully some good can come of all of that stuff. And we can all start talking about those things a little bit more. Shall we move on to something? Shall we move on to an exemplar of manhood who's been around for a very, very long time? And that is James Bond. Very good. Yes, James Bond. Now, James Kanagasorium, who's the brilliant pollster who who I did our Vibe Shift series with. Yes, by the way, available to members still, that Vibe Shift series, and it was absolutely sensational. Now, James's company, Focal Data, has done research on what the public want from the next James Bond film, which I think is very, very interesting.

36:55And from the next James Bond himself as well. Yes, yes. The headlines of it are, well, should we talk about who the British public want to be James Bond first? Because he's done a lot of research into that And I think it's interesting. The number one name, we'll do a top three. Okay. These are the three people the British people would most like to be James Bond. We've seen all the names that are in the press. We've seen the names at the top of the betting. But if you just ask the public in the UK and the US, funnily enough, in third place, James Norton. Yep. It's been mentioned a lot. I absolutely get that.

37:32In second place, Henry Cavill. Mentioned a lot. 21 % of people would like Henry Cavill to be James Bond. The top choice across Britain and America to be the next James Bond, Tom Hardy. I mean, I get it. I absolutely get it. I don't think it'll be him, but you can see why people would want Tom Hardy to be James Bond. People are wrong. People are wrong about a lot of things. Yes, but if you look back at every single James Bond that has ever been appointed, not a single one of them would have been chosen by the public, apart from maybe one. Connery definitely wouldn't have been chosen by the public because he was unknown.

38:06Roger Moore wouldn't have been chosen by the public. Timothy Dalton wouldn't have been chosen by the public. George Lazenby. Daniel Craig definitely wouldn't have been chosen by the public. They were furious about it at the time. The one person I think the public might have said, this is our guy, is Pierce Brosnan. Yeah. I think he was the right guy at the right time and everyone would have. But the public usually, you have to rely on the film producers to choose someone the public doesn't know they want, right? Yes. but that was such a we've talked about it a lot before but that was Barbara Boccoli's called completely the Daniel Craig court and it was it's really ballsy because it's like everyone was like what on earth are you talking about the second they see Casino Royale they're like oh yeah no you're right that is the right call and also he's also he's a great actor and that is important if you want to make great films okay right James Kanagasorium's research they've divided the fans of this franchise which I like about this they've divided basically the fans of this franchise into tribes.

39:01And the tribes are traditionalists and like they care about, you know, preserving his traditional values, his classic behaviors, you know, no political correctness, et cetera. All his vices are there. His seduction style is intact. All of that. They're the biggest segment in the UK. And there are substantial, we're just sort of looking at the UK and the US really. And there are substantial ones in the US and they're kind of heavily populated by socially conservative, older right-wing voters who really like the franchise when they feel kind of old school. Next tribe, Patriots. They really care about Britain's, his British identity, the sense of duty, blah, blah, national affiliation.

39:43They're more prevalent in the UK, obviously, than they would be in the US. And again, they disproportionately include older, more nationally rooted right of centre voters. And they wanted to keep Bond very much the same. This is the next tribe. This is interesting. I'm a little bit of this, but a little bit of the next one after. Classicists. Classicists, they want to have the familiar formulas. They want the structure. They want the leading man looks. They don't have to be heavily updated. They're kind of like a really solid middle ground in both US and the UK market. They don't want any culture wars in this stuff.

40:19Yeah, but they want the classic stuff, but they want you to move it on a little bit to reflect the world the world as it is they want christopher nolan's odyssey rather than homer's odyssey agreed um then you've got showmen or show people perhaps um and um now showmen they care most about that sort of spectacle the escapist glamour you know big action sequences lots of locations gadgets all the stuff you know the jokes um and they want the films to be very fun visually impressive uh they're more common in the us than the uk funnily enough but they they don't care about the the absolute traditional bits of bond as well you know the tuxedo and the suaveness and and they they just want a big mission impossible style spectacle yeah there's and they and they tend to skew younger and by the way young people are the people who go to the cinema most a lot of these old people who have a number of views are you going to see in the cinema no i probably won't It's a little bit like, it's just like, would you even...

41:18However, this is how I want you to make it. This is exactly how I want you to make it. I'm never going to see it. I'll fall asleep in half of it over Christmas in about seven years' time. Okay, so no. The next one is globalists. Now, they care about all of the kind of, just the kind of locations. They like it to be more modern, cosmopolitan. There's more of them in the US than the UK. And they're younger, they're outward looking, they're whatever. They're absolutely the sort of people who would have sex while Rory and Alistair talk to Gerry Adams. They're not those people. Okay, I don't think.

41:50Are they not? Who are those people? I would love to know who those people would choose as the next James Bond. Listen, if that was you, don't be intimidated. Write in and just give us a tiny bit more detail because there's just not enough quite I know about this yet. And as you know, I like to ask a lot of questions. Okay, so let's go back to these people. In the UK, older viewers, C2 voters, they're kind of clustered in traditionalists and patriots, while classicists are quite popular. Now, the showman and the globalist, you know, the last two categories that don't really care about, you know, just kind of want it to be big and exciting and fun and hot and whatever.

42:28They're much more female, younger looking, 18 to 34s, etc. As you say, people will actually go to the cinema. Yeah. But actually, you want to get all of those people. You know, we've talked before about like four quadrant movies. Bond isn't a four quadrant movie really, but it's as many quadrants as you always want as many quadrants as you can. And so each of those audiences need different marketing techniques to bring them in. And in your casting, your concept, your tone, all of that, you need to reach them all in a way if possible. It's almost like a manifesto. It's so weird, this franchise.

43:00It's almost like trying to get, you know, putting out an offer to the electorate for government. but it but it is i i do think it's worth noting that you know where this data is amazing but it's worth noting if you are the bond people if you are amazon they have all of this data as well they want to make a great film but they do also want to market to all of these people so if you look at who they will eventually choose if you look at the movie they make if you look at the script all these things they would have had all of this information all the way through so it's all very well are saying, oh God, it's so easy to make a bond, do X, Y, or Z.

43:35They have got all of this stuff. They know all of these things. They want to make a movie that, as he says, appeals to everybody. They know exactly all these numbers. And often, certainly in a franchise, data can be incredibly important. It's never as important as the creativity of the director and the writer and the actor. That is always paramount, I think, in pretty much any franchise. But all of this will inform their decisions, which is why it's interesting that we have this data as well now. Yeah, it's really, but it's a little bit like something like the monarchy, where you have to make sure that it can be handed on to the next generation.

44:10It's such a weird franchise, as I always say. In the UK, this is really something that's in our bones. You know, we have to get bond right, or we're getting something about ourselves wrong. Stop getting bond wrong. Yeah, but we're getting something quite sort of elemental about ourselves wrong. And so So there are certain things that are like this, kind of national bellwethers, and it's like, oh, you know, is M &S underwear good at any one given time? You know, have Man United got a strong back for? Are our institutions failing? This is like one of those things. It's sort of totemic in a weird way.

44:42Well, it was fascinating recently that, God, they did polling on everything, that all the world's security services voted on who the best security service in the world was. And MI6 came top by like a mile, by like an absolute mile. in terms of the ones that was admired most by the rest of the world. And that is, of course, not chiefly because of Bond, but a part of that is because the brand is so incredible. And that's Bond and that's Britain. And there is something about Bond that is absolutely deep within our national psyche. But we have to recognise that, for example, in America, they couldn't care less about any of that stuff.

45:18No, but we have to now talk about, it's very interesting. Okay, across every one of those tribes that I have mentioned, Tom Hardy and Henry Cavill come out on top. There's something about those. They believe that they have this core identity of Bond and that they embody it. So with the traditionalists, with the classicists, with everyone, they all sort of agree. They're miles out in France on this one. I mean, I think they're totally wrong. They're too old. By the way, there's one interesting wrinkle in that. So Tom Hardy is ahead of Henry Cavill. If you just look at Americans, it's just Americans, and Henry Cavill is actually the first choice to play Bond.

45:59America, you're wrong about this, and some other stuff as well. But Henry Cavill's 43. I think he's too old for it. But the next ones down, it's interesting, are like James Norton, Richard Madden. Yeah. Again, they're not going to go for Richard Madden. After that, there's no younger ones doing anything more than 2%. So you've got Callum Turner, Aaron Taylor-Johnson. You've got quite negative ones, like Jacob Elordi. Well, I was going to say, so this is like the popularity thing, which is you take the amount of people who like them and you minus the amount of people who don't like them. That's why it's possible to get a minus score.

46:33So Tom Hardy's score of 28 is the amount of people who like him minus the amount of people who don't like him equals 28. So there's a person on zero who I've been told is going to be the next James Bond, by the way. I know. I'm going to let you get to him. Okay. Jacob Allordi, who's one of the people, he's very negative. He's 29. Years old. Yeah, years old, yes. And Callum Turner is 36. I think that's, you know, anyway, you do want Bond to be a little bit older, but they could do something different. It's whether or not they take that big punt. But anyway, you tell us about your latest. Yeah, so as I say, you know, the scores are the amount of people who think you're great minus the amount of people who think you are not great.

47:16We absolutely have to take into account that the public would have been wrong on every single Bond ever appointed, apart from maybe Pierce Brosnan. And so it's down to the producers. Yes, but the name I heard, and we, you know, different people here, different things. The name I heard is Jack Loudon. Yeah. River can't write in Slow Horses. And it was Kenny Noy in Gold. And is such a brilliant actor. Can be funny. Can definitely do action. I mean, I think he'd be sensational. It is definitively not a, he's definitely got it thing. He is definitely being strongly considered. I think he'd be amazing.

47:55He's 36. That's a good age. You have to have the longevity. They've got to do at least two movies, and he's a good age for it. Some of the others, if you mentioned, are too old. Yeah, I think you have a mid-30s. And funnily enough, the polling by Focal Data says, how old should Bond be? And I think the average age that Bond should be is 37. But the average age for a Bond girl is 33. They think that he should be 37. And his girlfriend should be about four years younger. That's what the public thinks. But yeah, I think Jack Loudon would be an incredible Bond, don't you think? He'd be great. Yeah, for sure.

48:31He's got real Daniel Craig energy. Yes, but Daphne can do the jokes. The jokes are essential. They're not taking it too seriously as well. Daniel Craig took it slightly seriously by the end. But you can see he's got a slight, yeah, there's always a slight twinkle in Daniel Craig's eye. If we accept that humour is an important part of Bond, I mean, which of these actors can really, really do comedy? Which of them have done comedy? It's quite hard going down that list to find proper actors with comic chops. Yeah, Callum Turner's in a rom-com at the moment, but it hasn't done very well. Yes, which I think is interesting.

49:11It opened last week to not much, which won't do him any favours in this race, I don't think. No, but then I, you know, I mean, I don't think it's going to be Tom Hardy. I don't think those stories out of Mobland were particularly helpful either because you just need everyone to be very easy to deal with. I'm not saying he isn't. It seems like so many egos on that show. I've got my own theories as to what the real problem is, and I don't think it's Tom Hardy necessarily. But none of that's helpful because it's such a sort of huge thing and you really need everyone to be lowest friction possible.

49:43It's interesting, actually, that they also do, they've done the data on who Britain and America's favourite ever bond was, and it absolutely splits exactly as you think, which is older viewers, it's Sean Connery. Younger viewers, it's Daniel Craig. And there's somewhere in the middle, they sort of merge into the two. But those two are absolutely streets ahead of everyone else. But there are a lot of people who aren't Sir George Lazenby. Yes, weirdly. As I said, people are very wrong about things. Well, the 35 to 44 cohort is the one that's absolutely split down the middle between three of them.

50:18So, as I say, Connery, when you're above 44, is everyone. If you're under 35, everyone is Daniel Craig. But 35 to 44 is absolutely split between just Connery just wins by one point from Daniel Craig and then by two points from Pierce Brosnan. So that bit is very, very close. But everyone else, you're either Connery or you're Craig. It's like everyone's favourite Doctor Who is whoever was Doctor Who when you were growing up or David Tennant. Okay, but the humour should be part of it. I have a lot of respect for the way that Roger Moore could say hiss off to a snake. Yes. I would not mind seeing a little bit more of that next time around.

51:00Yeah, and Jack Lallon could do that because Roger Moore's my favourite Bond because he was my first Bond. And that's just when I grew up seeing it. Funnily enough, they talk about what has to be in a Bond movie to all these respondents. And absolutely top of it, 70 % of people said gadgets. So gadget is the single most important. Because gadgets, exotic locations, dry humour. I mean, if that's not the perfect recipe for a film, what is? What is? And Brits and Americans tend to agree on it. I just thought this was an interesting, just a final little thing. So dry humour, seduction, drinking, womanising, all these things people want to be in the Bond movies.

51:38The place where Brits and Americans differ the most is gambling. So Brits are not that fussed about gambling being in a Bond movie. Americans really, really, really want it. America has gone absolutely insane for gambling in the last five years. They have. They've gone insane. I just saw that Polymarket and Kelsey, which are the supposedly not betting sites. Prediction markets, Richard. Prediction markets. They're both worth over$20 billion now. America has literally lost its mind for gambling. It has lost its mind. Anyway, they want more of it in Bond. But thank you very much to James and to Focal Data for that.

52:15But I do think the interesting thing is that the Bond franchise people have all of this information already. They've got all of this data. They know all of this stuff. And so when you think about the decisions they've got to make, my God, there's a lot on their shoulders. And I imagine that new names will emerge and that there's many twists in this story yet. and if you want more Bond we are currently recording our series which is the definitive history of James Bond starting right from Ian Fleming all the way through we're having such a lot of fun doing it it is for members but the very first episode is out this week and that is free for everybody and it's about Ian Fleming oh god I loved recording that episode so much it's about Ian Fleming and the very very beginnings of Bond so you can listen to that for free and lots of details there about how to join our membership thing as well for ad-free listening and all that stuff.

53:06But yes, the definitive history of James Bond is on its way for members and this week only for non-members too. Any recommendations, Marina? What I wanted to be able to recommend this week was Richard Usman's We Chase Shadows. But let me tell you what's happened to this book, which I bought with me. I bought two books with me. It was immediately taken from me by Kieran, who said, like, honestly, by the first three pages, Kieran's like, oh my God, his tone is amazing. He's just nailed it. Absolutely loved it. The second he finished it, my daughter has taken it. Not spoken to me for 24 hours, not in a bad mood.

53:44So I haven't yet, but I can tell you that it is going down an absolute storm with the people I'm with. Oh, thank you. So I'm reading my other book. I'm reading my other book. Which is? Oh, you're going to love this. Oh, God. I am reading On War by Carl von Clausewitz, which is a seminal early 19th century, by the way, treatise on military strategy and history. I couldn't be loving it more. It's like a self-help book, but not rubbish. And it's, yeah, I'm learning how to vanquish my enemies. 99.9 % of listeners to this podcast, and even that's conservative, will don't buy this book because you will be, what on earth has she given me?

54:27I literally couldn't love it more. You might be the only person in the world taking those two books on holiday. Yeah, I think so. I'm also planning to invade the territories to the east of Prussia in September, and I don't want to mess it up. So I would like to recommend On War by Carl von Clausewitz. Any recommendations, Richard? Yes, I'm listening to, actually, though you can read it, the collection of David Sedaris' pieces called The Land and Its People. and I would recommend buying it because he's so brilliant but particularly the audiobook because you get to hear him read it out live in front of an audience so you get to hear the reaction and you just it's it's so he's so funny it's so effortlessly of course he's not effortlessly funny it takes an enormous amount of effort but um it's there's there's a humor to it that is a bit like other people's but it's not like anyone in particular there's he just has he has a very very special voice he's amazing some of his jokes are just and i admire no one more in the world than somebody can really tell a proper joke that no one's ever told before and he is amazingly good at that so it's the land and its people by david sadaris right i think that wraps us up for today we will obviously be back tomorrow with the first one of our bond series it is really cool it's such fun we're doing a few more q and a's as well which we're looking for our listeners to send in questions i'm going to be interviewing john grisham i love john grisham so much.

55:51So if you have any questions for John Grisham, please send them in to the wrestlersentertainment at goalhanger.com. And also we'll be interviewing the new hosts of Strictly. So Josh Whittacombe, Johannes Radhibi and Emma Willis. So if you've got any questions for them, then same address wrestlersentertainment at goalhanger.com. So John Grisham, any questions about his writing methods, any questions about the movie adaptations, anything like that, any questions about being virtually the best-selling author of all time I'm sure he'll answer all of those and anything for Josh Whittacombe, Emma Woodison, Johannes Reddibi please and other than that we'll be back on Thursday for our questions and answers see you on Thursday

56:47hello everyone we've got some exciting news to share with the listeners of the rest is entertainment we do indeed we are holding a summer sale so you can become a member of the club for a third of the regular price that's right with the code summer 26 you can head to therestisentertainment.com and claim an annual membership with this brilliant discount. So if you want to spend your summer listening to us discussing celebrity drama, behind the scenes stories and industry gossip, but have none of the ads and why wouldn't you? It is a no-brainer. Plus you can catch up with all of the archive of our members only shows you may have missed, including Marina's latest series of Vibe Shift.

57:19And we've got lots more of those special series planned. But remember, this deal will only run until the end of August. So don't wait around, head to therestisentertainment.com now. This episode is brought to you by DeeDee's Discounts. Back to school season is officially here and DeeDee's has everything on your list. I'm talking bold styles, cool kicks, backpacks, and even dorm room essentials. All the prices that won't hurt your wallet. So don't sleep on DeeDee's. Whether you've got a second grader or a sophomore, DeeDee's has your whole family covered. Find a DeeDee's discount store near you and go check it out today.