Simon Cowell on Regrets, Fame and Fatherhood

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0:49Free styling help, free shipping, and quick order pickup make it easy. In stores or online, it's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. This episode is presented by E.E. Marina, are you hosting or guesting for Christmas this year? Normally, every other year, I am a very grateful guest. But I'm now a slightly trepidatious host. Yes, it is me in the apron having a meltdown over all the cooking. No, I don't think I'll have a meltdown. It's a lot, isn't it? But you have to just keep saying to yourself, it's just a big chicken. Just a big chicken. It's just a really big chicken. it's just a really enormous chicken we are also hosting this year looking forward to it very much if you are hosting and e has the best broadband technology if you are guesting then e has the best mobile technology and my goodness you need it at christmas right yes the third babysitter the distractor just when the family walk into the house is hello grandma hello granddad what's the wi-fi password i might need that yeah get the best connectivity for your home and your phone with ee And if you're guesting, lucky you, EE has the best mobile network to keep you connected to music, maps and backseat streaming for the kids when you're travelling.

2:01Search EE Does More. Hello and welcome to this special episode of The Rest is Entertainment with me Marina Hyde. And me Richard Osman, hello Marina. Hello Richard. So it's a Q &A episode. It is. But we're not answering the questions, we have a special guest in the studio. Our guest today is Mr. Simon Cowell, who is probably the most significant television producer of this century, I would say. Certainly would have a claim to it. I think it would be impossible to think of someone who was more significant. I think people think of you as a music industry figure, but you are literally the behemoth of television in the last 25 years, Simon.

2:39Well, I kind of jumped on it. I didn't sort of start all these ideas. I heard about it and I just thought I described it like a train jump on the train because it's it's going to happen so we've got to be a part of it in some way and that was really it yeah but you weren't just a part of it you then took it over but that's good which is which is impressive we will get on to all of that I'm certain so I do a little positive history yes please okay um you you but is this actually true you you were a runner on the shining I know I tried to be right But Stanley Kubrick, the director, don't ask me why, wouldn't hire runners.

3:17It must have been a superstition. So I couldn't even get a job for like£11 a week as a runner on The Shining. Happily, you then landed in the EMI mailroom. EMI, a record label, which we have to explain for a younger. Well, it was actually EMI Music Publishing, but you're right. It was all sort of, yeah, the music business, yes. You then had your own label, which went bust in one of many life lessons for yourself. I know you like to teach yourself life lessons. You went to BMG, you did A &R. There were a lot of novelty records at that time, which was kind of against the grain of a decade. But you signed Robson and Jerome, who were two guys who were in a TV show called Soldier, Soldier.

3:56Yeah. And they had an enormous hit. Yeah, they did. With Unchained Melody. Yeah. But then the chapter of your life that most people will know you was because you became front of house. you became a judge on a new show called pop idol which attempt attempted to find a kind of recording artist that was the moment you went stratospheric you became a completely sort of different type of figure you were mean you were imperious you were you know you were the puppet master in many ways and that's when you thought perhaps i can own this rather than being that on someone else's thing you thought you could make it for yourself you created the x factor britain Scott Talent you had the biggest shows on both sides of the Atlantic well it's it's always been a summer show mainly yeah so it's you know over the years I mean I think yeah we did our 20th anniversary last year and it has remained uh the number one summer show yeah so yeah yeah um so but your new Netflix show Simon Cowell the next act is about you and it's about you putting a boy band together is that that's it that's it good title by the way i think it's really really smart we are going to get on to it because we both just watched all of it did you yes we did indeed we've watched it all um let's start shall we with just some crowd pleasing stuff okay we'll start with x-factor as marina said you started on pop idol which was a you and simon fuller put together you then morphed that into X Factor, which you cleverly owned a lot more of.

5:30But the question is not about the finances of the things. The question is from Fraser. Which season of the X Factor was your favourite, not as a producer, but personally? Oh. It's a nice gentle start, isn't it? Yes, it's a nice start. I think Leona Lewis's year because that was the first time, honestly, when she sang Summertime, I'll never forget that where I genuinely thought oh my god we found you know from the UK a global star I really did feel that in the moment and she's the nicest person in the world I mean really an absolutely great person so I think that has to be my favorite yeah yeah I mean I've obviously liked other seasons is that the best single is that the best single I think it was uh uh bleeding love uh yeah one of my favorites actually yeah actually was it was written a moment in time was the uh was was the winner's single yeah but yeah but then bleeding love came off and actually bleeding love believe it or not was written for a guy and i got the demo and one of my a and r um uh people said you know we've got this group found this great song and we're going to give it to a male singer i said no it's a female song uh listen to the lyrics it's it's amazing and you've got to have a fantastic voice to sing this so we persuaded um ryan tedder the writer to allow leona to and i'll never forget when i got her version it was like goosebumps i mean serious goosebumps um and yeah anytime it's one of it is actually a timeless you know here i think so so phrase this question which is interesting with this I'll ask you personally, rather than as a producer.

7:12You know, when you're talking about Leona there, it strikes me, you're in a position. So you come from music and suddenly you're in TV and it's going, music has gone very, very well for you. You've proved yourself time and time again. You had hits. Yeah. TV is suddenly going well for you because you're proving yourself, you're having hits, but you're also on screen. So Leona Lewis, when you're in that position, how much of you is thinking as a TV producer? I've got a hit on my hands how much of you is thinking as a music producer I've been in this place before and something extraordinary is happening and how much of you is thinking I'm in a new world here which is I'm on camera people know who I am and this show is doing something for me personally as well so how was that having those sort of three balls in the air at once I you know I'd done well I said no to going on these shows initially and then the deal was in the uk and america i would do the first season of both to kind of hopefully sort of get it where i wanted to and then i would take a step back and then because the shows were doing well the money was good i'm going to be honest with you uh and i just said okay fine and actually i didn't have a problem being well known because everyone i met honestly were just really nice people and because I'm quite I was still am I'm quite shy like uh my biggest nightmare is going to you know the pre-party before the sit-down party where you've got to stand up and make conversation with people you don't know so when I wasn't well known being in that position I couldn't actually handle it even now to this day when I go to like a function I say to Lauren let's sit in the car and when I know everyone sat down I'll go in because then I'm fine I just always have had problems so in a long so i'm waffling here but my point was i didn't actually found being well known good in some ways because it became a form of being able to control situations well you couldn't control before yeah it was a good icebreaker so you know people would say you know oh i like your show i like that artist so we immediately had something in common um and uh you know because I'd constantly said to artists, you know, before, if you have a problem, you know, meeting people after you're famous, then don't do this because it's going to happen.

9:36And I remember being about seven when I asked someone for their autograph and he told me to piss off. Oh, who was that? It was Bernard Cribbins. Are you kidding me? I swear. And, you know, because he's a national treasure, not anymore. and he told me to piss off uh it was the ideal home exhibition or something so you know i went over like really starstruck oh can i have a autograph and he literally said piss off um i don't be still alive he's not i'm afraid okay well good i'll say it he told me to piss off and i was really upset um anyway so i thought okay the deal is obviously if i'm going to do this and become well known I can't then moan if someone wants to come up and say hi or have a picture whatever I mean I've never had a problem actually with that ever.

10:30And you've worked with a lot of famous people behind the scenes had that taught you anything about fame that you found useful? I mean everybody who had come to me whether it was via my labels before I made the shows or came on the show they all had one thing in common well actually two things actually mostly it was having a successful music career or in some cases i just want to be famous yeah um so we had both um and you'd always sit with them beforehand and go you know there is something that comes with it lack of privacy um and you've got to deal with it yeah and if you don't like that then i suggest become an accountant or a gardener or something where no one knows who you are and you won't have that problem we were talking about executive producing you're an executive producer on the new documentary and i something that's interesting about the newer documentary in comparison maybe to things you've done before is that i think that you've identified the fact that authenticity and a certain amount of rawness is in the ascendancy now and that and in all the ascendant media those are the popular things that people want to see.

11:44I wonder if that is achievable when you're the executive producer of your own documentary. Oh, that's a good question. I went to a company who makes Drive to Survive because I like that series. Box to Box. Box to Box, yeah. And I thought it'd be interesting because they've mainly done non-music things. And then I met the executive producer, a lady called Cassie who I really liked and we kind of had an agreement with essentially whatever happens we are going to have to show because if we're going to show the real story from start to finish there's going to be bumps and unfortunately there were more than bumps there were some really terrible things so there's the real story so this show is called it's called The Next Act it's essentially you putting together a boy band in the same way that you might have done on X Factor but we're at home with you we see a little bit more of the process a little bit more of the business side of things yeah so it is it's like an x-factor but through the kind of prism of a documentary yeah i just wanted to tell and show the story of what i actually used to do even before i was on tv when i used to put bands together you know it sounds corny doing saying that but actually you've got to be a catalyst to find talented people and decide actually that person with that person it doesn't become times two it becomes times a hundred if you get it right so you've got to find those people persuade them because most people want to be a solo artist yeah and you kind of got to convince them it will be a great way to start your career by being in a band and fun, by the way.

13:27So we just decided, okay, fine, then whatever happens, there'll be cameras everywhere. So would you show it? So in the first episode, you're talking about how to sort of reach your market and what's the best tool to reach your market. And you say, oh, I think it's radio and then there's a billboard. Now, I think like almost every listener to this podcast knows now that those things don't move the dial anymore. Did you really think that radio and billboard was the best way to reach your market? Because, of course, we get the turn halfway through the episode where you think, oh, my goodness, we're going to have to do something completely different to what I've done before, something modern.

14:07Did you really think that radio was the best way to meet them? Well, I thought it was a good start, you know, when we talked about it, you know, it was a pretty big poster I was going to put up, you know. And you authentically believed that they would be reachable via poster. Well, I thought it was a good start. Good start to the documentary. Yeah, well, no, I actually thought we'd get a lot of people applying. I mean, I actually did think that. But then also in the back of my mind, it was I know how many people drop out, you know, when you cast for anything. There's a big dropout. So at the moment in the documentary and, you know, when I actually said, well, after putting up this huge post of doing a lot of radio, how many people have actually applied?

14:51And actually, the biggest issue really was the website which was created. The website was like trying to log into Apple TV times a million. It was so complicated. And I thought, why are we making it so difficult? So let's do social media. Heard of it. Yeah, a lot. And actually about 60 more radio interviews. So it was a bit of both, really, just so we could get the numbers above a thousand. That was my goal. I need over a thousand people to apply, because if we don't, I don't think we're going to have a chance. Yeah, I think what Marina is getting at here, and I do think I've watched all of it, and you are brilliant at what you do.

15:37And the band, it feels to me, I mean, they're great. Thank you. I mean, generally, they seem great. But what I thought I was going to watch was something that had more authenticity. if that makes sense. And I think you're so brilliant at controlling narrative and understanding what people want and understanding how to give it to them that I wondered if you execing that show meant that we missed out on some genuine authenticity. Because I felt a number of times there were moments where you were saying, oh, this is a big problem. I don't know what's going to happen here. And I thought, I think you do know what's going to happen here.

16:14And listen, it's very, very watchable. I should, pinky thumbie, I didn't. Okay. I absolutely didn't. I was living and I was in a bit of a bubble. I had a gut feeling that we've got to check the numbers, so I wasn't going to go into this without... Not even just this bit, but throughout, there are a number of moments where I'm thinking, this is much more X factor than I thought it was going to be. And by the way, that's absolutely fine because... Well, I promise you it was all genuine. in what you see is what happened and there weren't any second takes so when we're talking about the audition process as an example yeah um very good acoustic in those glass offices i was amazed thought it was wonderful um so when you're doing those auditions what you say which of course you never said on x factor and those previous shows where you were much more the kind of impresario and the controller of all of them, what you say is there's a filter room and then people, the good ones, are sent through to me.

17:17And when that was done, I thought, oh, great, because we all know that's the case. And so that's some authenticity. Yeah. But then why did we see some rather unfortunate, less talented people, much in the way that we always used to, in that sort of slight X-factor theatre of cruelty way where we just get to laugh at them because they're useless and you get to be quite rude to them? What happened was we didn't know how many people were going to turn up. So normally on, say, Got Talent, I know there's X amount of people per day. On this, we didn't know. So on the first morning, it was so nerve-wracking that until it was about 12.30 when I could leave my hotel and go to the venue, because at that point it was raining and no one had turned up.

18:00So I thought this is going to be really, really humiliating. and then because I have a cut off at eight o 'clock I'm just my brain's fried beyond eight so I said look we're going to cut off at eight which means we're going to try and see everyone so we set up three or four as you said filter rooms there were a couple of filter rooms who were sending people through who they thought were good and I thought were terrible. But by the edit I appreciate by eight o 'clock that evening you know that that you're not sure you've got to shoot enough coverage so that you've got some staff. But by the time of the edit, perhaps you didn't need to show the unfortunately untalented ones at all.

18:40But perhaps it wouldn't be an authentically used show if you didn't. Well, that is the reality with auditions is that I've always gone with about half a percent, if you're lucky, if the people you see are going to be good. And so there were some not so good people. and so yeah I mean I suppose it was a decision to show the kind of people who turned up and some of them weren't very good. Right I see and you have a glint in your eye I can see. Because it reminded me and I think I expect you and one thing that we have had lots of questions about from lots of different listeners actually is duty of care yes and the vibe shift between X Factor where initially you would have the auditions and then I think it became so successful that kind of the the theatre of the audition process that eventually you moved it to a you know it was live and you had an audience watching auditions yeah but I think that we all detect a vibe shift since then that you would have a I wonder how your view of duty of care has evolved over a lot I mean we've always tried as much as we can to look after our artists I mean you send them out into what I call the real world with as much advice as you possibly can with you hope great managers around them you know i always partnered with a big label bmg sony so i had a massive infrastructure i was a tiny little cog in their company so i made money in the same way as the artist did i got paid a royalty um the artist got paid a royalty um and yes when you um sometimes the manager would bring an artist to me in the main we would take artists to management hope hoping that they would be looked after not ripped off and prepared and then over the over time whether it's discussions about mental health and and duty of care that has become much more something we think about talk about and acknowledge uh i mean that is you have to certainly episode three in this um the end of episode three is a sort of black title card that says in loving memory of liam payne who was of course in um your band one direction and during that episode um when the news of his death breaks and it becomes part of that episode it's you obviously realize that you have to involve the parents of these, in some cases, children who are potential members of the band, and you get them all together.

21:28I'm mentioning your son, Eric, who's 11, because you put him in the documentary and you talk about him as a sort of motivating factor for kind of embarking on this quest at all. But one of the children's mothers says, if your son, what would you say to Eric if he wanted to be in a band like this and I I guess I would just perhaps firm that up slightly and say if Eric was 15 and came and said someone else not you wants to put me in a band like this would you and Lauren let him? If I thought he was talented enough number one. Do you think that people of that age can consent meaningfully to the risks and the rewards of that lifestyle?

22:13Yeah, I do. I think, you know, I mean, I know how many songs roughly are uploaded a day now. It's hundreds of thousands. There are hundreds of thousands of people right now wanting to get a break in the music business. And right now, weirdly, it's the hardest time to get a label to back you. In some ways, you don't need a label. Well, I personally think you do. I think you do because you hear stories about people doing it themselves. I suppose I could have been the label, but I don't have a record label anymore. You have a publishing deal with Universal, that's right, isn't it? Yes. Which is where the deal with the band has ended up.

22:58But the record deal had to be with a major company. Because I knew, I know how much you have to invest, what it takes logistically. It's like you've got to put together a little army, particularly a band. If you're going to put them in a house, just the costs involved are ginormous. And you think that in four years your son would be able to consent to that? I mean I have an 11 year old among my children and I have a 15 year old among my children and while some things change in that time I think it's amazing how like unformed and vulnerable they still are at 15. Yeah well look there's two I completely hear what you're saying on the other side it's sometimes at that age there is a window which is you've got to just take the opportunity and these boys they were young most of them and it was like if they don't get this chance now what are the chances for them outside of this has that always been your view of the music industry that it's one of the great ways of lifting young and talented people out of a life of sometimes of terrible disadvantage and and some have very sad endings within those stories but others don't and these are yeah that showbiz the music business i've always found very elite so when i was running a label i would be on the receiving end of what people thought of the records i was putting out and i was embarrassed humiliated i mean everything it was just i remember you once giving a quote in an interview saying everything that is shit in this company simon cowell does this is when you You were working with many puppets, the Power Rangers.

24:46I remember you. Really supportive, yeah. But you know what? It wasn't great that whole time, but you've got to lift yourself up and go, I don't really care what you think. This is what I believe is going to sell. It's the music business. So my job is to make money for you and me, and that was the deal. And if I saw an opportunity like Robson and Jerome, you'd jump on it. And other people were laughing at me. And I mean, I was called so many, because we outsold Oasis that year. And I remember the press was just saying the most vile things about me and Robson and Jerome, because we dared beat Oasis to number one.

25:26I want to say I think it was the biggest selling single of that decade. Is that correct? Well, certainly for two years, they were the biggest selling artists in the UK. There's a lovely question from Brian Atkinson, which we've already answered. But he said, does it give you a sense of quiet satisfaction? Actually, that is a good way of putting it. Does it give you a sense of quiet satisfaction that when people talk about Britpop and the battle of Britpop, they conveniently forget that Robson and Jerome actually had the biggest selling single of 1995? I think it's funny. I mean, you can't take it seriously.

25:54I mean, you know, I saw an opportunity. It took me a few months to persuade them. But eventually I did persuade them to get into a studio because I thought if I could get them into a studio, they're going to hear it back and they're going to hopefully like it. I offered them a hundred grand, actually. and I said look it's yours you can keep it but you've got to go into the studio for one day and they did and once I got them in they called me and I won't use the words they said you bleep bleep bleep you I you did this on purpose I said well of course I did it on purpose you know because I wanted you to believe that you could do this what is it in that's in your brain and not in other people's brains that were able to see two guys from soldier soldier and you immediately saw pound signs where other people didn't see them?

26:41Well, I had a really good friend who was in the tele-sales department because that's when we were manufacturing records. So the record shops would phone all the tele-sales teams at all the major labels if there was a demand for something. So this lady called Denise said, do you know Robson and Jerome? And I said, nope. Well, everyone's trying to buy their version of Unchained melody and I went okay leave it with me and so I tracked them down and took me a few months and but to your point I'm not a snob and a lot of the people I work with were I think snobbs and I just don't understand that mentality if certain people like something and other people don't what does it matter I don't I don't think it mattered I mean if people buy zig and zag and enjoy all the Power Rangers.

27:35I mean, who cares? It didn't bother me. Apart from the fact, yeah, there were some uncomfortable meetings. You know, I had to, you know, when I had to sit there, okay, what's new? And I would go, okay, here we go. I've signed the Power Rangers. And there's like deathly silence around the room and people sniggering. And if we go back in a time machine to that point and talk to some of the colleagues on the other side of that table. How would they describe you, do you think, at that point in your career? Oh, we weren't friends. We weren't close, no. So, I mean, some were. I got to a point where I actually went to the boss of the whole company and said, it's so bad, this environment.

28:21I've got to work with another label. I just can't work here anymore. And if you don't, I'm actually going to walk. I will break the contract and walk. I can't bear this any longer. It was so, so bad. Unfortunately, he switched me from one label to another label, and they were really up for it. They were like, we don't care. Just sell as many records as you can. I'm like, brilliant. I did. And how much is the world of Idol and X Factor, a sort of reaction to that time in your career where you are able to say, I want a vehicle where I can prove that I was right, that actually there is something to be said for popular music, for music that doesn't come out of some basement, something that isn't cool, but just a vindication for the way you'd always wanted to do business.

29:10Well, you're right to say popular because pop music is popular. I mean, that's it. So I thought, again, statistically, if we could get, say, 10 ,000 people to apply, there has to be a really good chance, if we filter this properly, that we're going to find one or two good people per year. I just thought the fact that we were being paid to make a show was brilliant. I was just genuinely gobsmacked. I'm like, this is fantastic. So... Was it more about television than music? No, it's the opposite. I'm like, no, we're going to sell, we're going to try and, you know, find artists and sell loads of records.

29:52And this is the vehicle. Quite a few of them would end up getting dropped relatively soon afterwards. Well, yeah, but I mean, you don't, you never sign someone in the hope they're going to fail. I mean, that would be, I mean, I mean, literally insane. There would be times where you would go, for whatever reason, I can't connect with this artist or they can't connect, you know, with the audience for whatever reason. I always used to say, look, I don't have a magic wand. I can try, but I can't guarantee anything. and actually a lot of it has to come from you. So, you know, when people say, oh yeah, you know, I wasn't backing them, I did back them.

30:31I did everything I possibly could, but not everything worked out the way we wanted to. But a lot did, fortunately. What's your feeling about those, the ones who are sort of almost unionising? I think Katie Waisel ended up training as a lawyer and she's got some sort of, she's trying to bring some action against you for exploitation or whatever it is. What's your feeling about that? Well, look, I don't want to go too far down that route other than everyone's entitled to their opinion. Any artist is. The vast majority of people who came on the show, they made a lot of money and got what they wanted, which was fame.

31:12Did it go exactly the way they wanted? Possibly not. So certain people, yeah, they've just got it in for me. And there's nothing I can do about that. I mean, every time we put someone on the show, they signed up to what they knew the show was about. And most people want... I suppose it's about not quite understanding what you're consenting to, to some degree. Certainly back in those days. If I can ask a question from Alan McIntyre, which I think is asking something slightly different, but I think it's instructive. Given your very career, it's fairly easy to point to success. But what has been your biggest miss and what did you learn from it?

31:49And I think the spirit of that question would be clearly, you've been in the music business long enough to know that there are sharks around. And also your eyes are fairly wide open to what happens in the business. So you do know that you're sending people out into a slightly rocky field sometimes. Do you ever think 20 years ago, I wish I'd known that and I would have done things slightly differently? What are the regrets when you think about those things? God, you know, I do believe in destiny. I always use Eric as an example, which is there were certain things in my life which were bad. However, that's your destiny.

32:29And Eric was conceived on a certain day at a certain time. And if things have gone differently, then I don't believe he would be here. So that therefore you can't really complain too much about, you know, your regrets. You just can't. um however still you know i i've had experiences now where people who you trusted just completely let you down and and you're just like what what would be an example of that i am i can't go into it but i'll tell you i'll tell you when when all this is off um but no genuinely i mean i can be quite naive um where i really really really put my trust in people and boy did they let let you down um and so you know to you know your earlier point about me giving advice it's like i wish actually someone had given me advice about certain things and said simon you know open up here because you know for whatever it all sounds a bit cryptic let's just say um i've experienced you know certain things myself which yeah i regret but can you do anything about it now i suppose you can't in terms of your career or in terms of just where i'm in my life you know because you know my family is everything to me genuinely and having or being a dad it was i mean when i first found out i'm like oh my god uh i wasn't expecting that and then from the minute i saw his scan i just fell in love i mean it was like a game changer everything in my life changed so i i relived my childhood with eric um and um you know you're the first christmas they get the first halloween they get whatever east everything birthdays everything becomes different um things that you were trying to put right about your own childhood or well i had a pretty good childhood i wasn't great at school um i just wasn't um you were in elstripe weren't you peeping over the fence to some exciting parties yeah i was yeah when i was a kid yeah um tell the story of when well yeah my my uh my dad you know he he he didn't actually make in the end much money to be honest with you he didn't um I wasn't left anything however there was a time in his career where he was doing well and our next door neighbors uh they ran MGM studios so they used to have this big big party like once a year I think it was and we would literally peek over the fence and see people like Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton.

35:18And I was mesmerized by it. But the funny thing was, is that I didn't want to be the actor or the actress. I wanted to be the person who had the party. And his name was Jerry Platner. And he was a really cool guy. And he had a really fun wife who I remember her really well. Her name was Pam. and I think that was the trigger point possibly in my life thinking, God, that would be cool, you know, to be in that sort of world. To be the impresario. Yeah. The Gatsby. Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah. It just looked great. It was like a really glamorous old school party. You know, I can remember it vividly and I must have been really young.

36:07this episode is brought to you by channel 4 now richard settling down on a winter's evening turn the tv on what sort of thing are you searching for um well when you think about channel 4 you think about quirky you think about slightly off the wall i my absolute go-to is well three things my absolute go-to is grand designs because kevin mcleod is the greatest television presenter uh in the history of factual entertainment 24 hours in police custody again because it changed the way those things were done you know it changed we'd seen all sorts of police investigation things but 24 hours in police custody absolutely had a had a new unusual refreshing way of covering those cases and every single time there is a new one they have to release them they can't sort of release them week by week because they're literally waiting for court cases to come through some of them are waiting for years for years and years and years but anytime a new one pops up uh in on on the streaming service i'm like here we go and i also love the dog house which is um just about rescue dogs and people who want dogs and it's almost like a like a sort of slightly kind of matchmaker-y type show fantastic i endorse those messages and you can stream them all now on channel four sparkle throughout the night with born in roma fragrances by valentino beauty each bottle holds the energy of rome after dark donna born in roma blends luxurious jasmine with rich creamy vanilla creating a sensual and vibrant signature scent uomo born in roma fuses aromatic sage and smoked vetiver leaving a lasting impression that lingers well into the early hours shop born in roma by valentino beauty now at ulta toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of rum chata a delicious creamy blend of horchata with rum enjoy it over ice or in your coffee.

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38:21If we go back, sorry, just when you were talking about Eric and how it's changed your attitudes, which I think it does for most people. If you look back to the times where you very, very, very first started with One Direction and you look at the time now when you're just starting with December 10, who are the new band, you must look, because some of them are 16, 17, you must have a very different attitude to those boys than you did to One Direction. how does that is that interesting for you there's a similarity in so much as it wasn't i don't think in their plans to be in a band the people in one direction and the people in this new band it was because obviously with one direction we just made that decision it would be best for them in the moment it was just i could just do it see what happens with this i did this because um i'm a great believer i always say this to to people in their teens if you want to start your career in music i would really recommend you start in a band always team up you team up yeah and you've got friends around you and it's more fun and you learn who you are doing it on your own is really if you don't write your own material it's almost impossible right now i would say to to get a label to back you or to do it yourself i mean it's like a lottery out there but when you're looking at John or Nicholas a bit of you is looking at Eric right yeah which is and but that that's a very different that's a very different experience for you it is uh and you're right to say that because uh Eric wasn't born when uh One Direction became a band he was there during the auditions with me Eric and he just loved it um and he almost got a bit starstruck with the boys to the point where they're doing a showcase next week and he's going down with his mates to see them and he's just so excited about it.

40:24And that feeling is, I can't explain it, it's just the best. The fact that my son really is into something I've done because when he first played me a One Direction record, I was on holiday and he played me What Makes You Beautiful because he's always playing songs. and he said do you like this I said yeah I know the band no you don't I said well I do I work with them no you didn't I was laughing and then it got to the point where I'm like gosh I love listening to their songs because they're brilliant but at the same time I'm thinking I really miss that that buzz myself of working with a new band because it's not totally clear from the documentary but i understand it to be the case that you're not just involved in the assembly you're involved thereafter yeah that's right you're not just you know you haven't just put them together of course you've got a piece of it simon cowell yeah i mean you always you know if you if you can you want to be and you stay involved and how do universal for instance feel about that because that that's a that can be a friction can't it between the label and the manager are you officially their manager is that what they call you no no what's your what's your job title i don't know actually line manager well i think they are my boss bosses now i mean it's kind of like role reversal you know okay it is a bit like that because it's like you know you're talking to x x amount of boys and they've now bonded and they're just unionized and they're taking the piss out of me and they're pranking me and everything else but i kind of love that you know i like that relationship yeah but you but you are still the most powerful person in that process you're more powerful than universal in that process you're certainly more powerful than the boys you're simon cowell and i know it's hard for you to come to terms with because you wake up as you every morning but in terms of that process in terms of that whole documentary you are the big dog well yes to a point i think what i mean my job really is well first of all you could try and find them a manager who you trust but they had to make the decision themselves We let them meet a number of people.

42:36They chose someone and I think they made a really good choice. We like that you think their name is a good choice. We find it very funny because it's got the feel. We're allowed to say what it is now because by the time it says December 10th, it sounds like a sort of South American kind of Marxist terrorist organization. I know the Black September was taken. The Black September was taken. How did you think that? It sounds like the glorious events of September 10th. I don't know how it does it does it does it reminded you of what well you know it's got the sound of a sort of revolutionary organisation yeah no yes no it's the anniversary of when the show launches sure but it sounds like a Colombian terrorist group yeah well now you mention it I get it I wish you hadn't put that thought in my head it's a good name it's too late now I thought it was very sweet of them and very respectful to Netflix that they did that you know because it's like yeah.