The Biggest Flop Of All Time?

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1:23Hello and welcome to this edition of The Rest is Entertainment with me, Marina Hyde. And me, Richard Osman. Hello everybody, hello Marina. How are you? I'm all right. Last week we went to the RTS conference, didn't we? They asked us to do a little session at the end of the day. And I think we upset pretty much everybody. It was quite a sort of reverential convention that had been sponsored by Netflix. Yeah. And I think, and so did you, understood our role at the end to be some sort of roasting function? Yeah, just have a bit of a laugh with people. Yeah. I mean, we got out of there quickly at the end, I will say, at the end of the day.

1:55We did. Straight to public. Ted Sarandos we had a go at, Channel 4, David Beckham. Yeah. But it was just jokes. Yeah, it was just jokes. Just jokes at the end of a long day that in no way could have been an email. The people there seem to enjoy themselves. Now, what are we talking about this week? We've got some fun coming up this week, some unusual items. We're going to talk about the biggest TV show you've probably never heard of. And you have been talking to me about this for the last couple of weeks. And I said, we have got to do this as a night. And the more I heard about it, the more I wanted everybody to hear about it.

2:26It's very interesting. We're also going to talk about the biggest flop in entertainment this year and a whole world of entertainment we haven't really covered before. That'll be our third item, I think. We're also going to talk about review bombing as a practice, you know, when people sort of pile on and make things have really bad Rotten Tomatoes scores and IMDb scores and the new practice of being able to bet on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, I mean, that feels like a top of a very slippery slope to me. If it exists, you can bet on it. Shall we start, though, with the biggest show that you've never heard of?

3:00That you've probably never heard of, right? It's pretty hard on IMDb to get a 9.2 rating if you're a drama overall. And there are a few shows that are on 9.2, and they are The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, Game of Thrones, and another show that you've probably never heard of, but it's got 200 million viewers worldwide. Season 5 is in production right now. It's even had theatrical releases. They've done episode by episode in theatres and it's pulled in like 63 million for the last one of those. It's got its own dedicated fan convention every year. It's got very high production values. It's character driven.

3:33People binge it. It is called The Chosen and it is about the life of Jesus Christ. Based on the book? Based on the book. Based on part of the book. Was it adapted by the author or did they bring in Will Smith to do it? Now listen, it's created by this guy called Dallas Jenkins. Now Dallas Jenkins, his dad wrote a series of books which were again religious. But they were kind of blockbuster series of novels based on kind of the book of Revelation. And they were called Left Behind. But he did grow up in an evangelical community whose main engagement with Hollywood was to boycott the occasional thing it did.

4:06And that was it. OK, but he loved movies and loved TV and loved all those things. Kept thinking, oh, I can, you know, maybe I can kind of break through and do it in some way. The sun, this is. This is the sun. This is Dallas Jenkins. By the way, he has directed every single episode of this thing. The scale of it is quite extraordinary. Anyway, but he gets a deal with Jason Blum, who's a producer about whom we'll have to talk on another occasion. He's a guy who does a lot of low-budget horror things. Anyhow, Dallas Jenkins does a Christian rom-com with him, but it bombs, and he's thinking, oh my God, that was my last big shot.

4:36Nothing's going to happen to me now. He's on the treadmill, binge-watching The Wire, and he thinks, oh my God, you know what would be amazing? Because there's loads of great characters. Something like this, but about the life of Christ. Whoever does that is going to do really, really well. Anyway, then he suddenly thinks, well, actually, maybe I should have a go. Yeah, come on, Dallas. He gets distribution and funding from this company called Angel Studios, which I might talk a bit more later. Angel Studios. Angel Studios. So that's a bit on the nose. They're now in dispute, these two entities.

5:04Oh, are they? Yeah, this much success inevitably in Hollywood. They need a third party to come and sort it out. They need a deus ex machina. Yes, they need a deus ex machina or a holy ghost. Yeah, you're right. Angel say, why didn't we do crowdfunding? He's like, crowdfunding what? but that's stupid and it never would work. Anyway, the first time of asking, they get$11 million. And he's like, all right, okay, that's quite good. No wonder Russell Brand has turned to Jesus. Yeah, well, you know, if you want money, start a religion. But the first season, they say it's low budget, but it doesn't look it.

5:35You can watch it now. And by the way, if you want to see this in the UK, you can see it on Prime. There are pops up on all sorts of different services. As I say, it's had four seasons out now and the fifth is in production. Season four, like the budget was$40 million. So it's much bigger. They've got their own back lot now, but they still crowdfund. And originally it was distributed through the Angel Studios kind of like a desktop app. The season premiere of their season in 2021 was watched live on this app by something like 770 ,000 people. And something like Mare of Easttown, which by the way ended up winning the Emmy, was watched by like about 900 ,000.

6:13So by the way, you never read any mainstream media coverage of the show. It's the first, well, the first I heard of it was about two weeks ago when you started telling me about it. Okay. In a way, it's like The Crown, I think. Yes. Crown of Thorns. The Crown, because you all know where we're going with it, but they're playing out over seven seasons, right? Yes, we know how it's going to end. So season five is going to be all of Holy Week, apart from the day of crucifixion. Season six is the entire season is the one day of the crucifixion. Wow. Season seven is the aftermath. They are really eking it out, aren't they, at that point?

6:45You know, like, you've got to have seven seasons or something, Richard as you know so anyway the characters are great okay so I was gonna say you are genuinely a fan of this show I just think it's really I just well I'm sort of fun because it's a curiosity but it's it's really good and it's well done and there's lots of funny little bits in it it's just odd because when people think of these stories they do honestly think of these kind of characters as a sort of stained glass window and things like that which is what he said and he was trying to make this real and he's very funny about things Dallas Jenkins is the producer like about the character of Jesus he says you couldn't really make him the main character he He doesn't learn anything.

7:17He doesn't grow and he doesn't struggle. I feel like he's going to struggle in season six. But the point is, I get it. OK. But he's so heavily influenced by other shows. Like in episode one, you know, the pilot of the first season. You don't see. No, it's all the gospels. You know, he's like in his 30s or whatever, early 30s or whatever when you meet him. But you don't meet him till the very, very end of the episode. And it's deliberately they did it with President Bartlett in the start of the episode. Because you're trying to build the ensemble. So you're trying to say, right, Simon, he's a street fighter.

7:49He's got such a massive arc. Like, he's definitely the James Kirk of the piece. What about Noah? He's got a massive arc. He's got the biggest arc of all. We're going to talk about the potential chosen verse in a minute, actually. Okay. But part of the evangelical modern Christian movement in America is, like, you have to believe these stories actually were real and happened. And there are lots of contradictions, clearly, in the Gospels. He's kind of built this world where you're like, oh, yeah, but that's why one Gospel tells you this and that's another. I see it's the two narrators. And it's really, he's tried to make it really, really real.

8:19And, you know, it's probably never going to get an Emmy, but he's very funny when he talks about it. But what he's trying to do is something really quite unusual. And he doesn't mind now. He thinks, oh, I always thought about getting an Oscar and an Emmy and I don't care anymore. But all the good things are happening. But there's something about faith-based entertainment, which we don't, you know, I say we, because I am not a consumer of it particularly at all. I have consumed this, but I'm not in general. But what we kind of forget is that, like, faith-based artists have been selling out arenas in the US for forever in every genre, not just like, you know, evangelical music in country and all sorts, in rock and all sorts of things.

8:54But there is also the sense that kind of Hollywood has fallen and that any entertainment that comes from that is degenerate. And he has managed to thread this needle. And it's sort of amazing what he's done. And he's now trying to build it all out and create, I don't want to call it the chosen of us, but I think we're all thinking that. He's looking at someone like Taylor Sheridan and thinks, huh, you are out of the system in a way. You're out there in the Midwest. You have one show and you've suddenly made it into loads and loads and loads of shows. So he's saying, okay, Moses was like a reluctant Tony Soprano.

9:24He was the head of the largest family and he didn't want to be. Noah's Ark. The story of Noah is basically parented on a boat, says Dallas Jenkins. Hard to film Noah's Ark. I think that has to be an animation. He wants to do an animation based on The Chosen as well. He wants to have this whole massive mega empire. And the dispute with Angel Studios, Angel Studios are quite interesting because they are one of those people who operate in the Christian entertainment space. And every now and then they get a massive hit. Another thing that Dallas Jenkins does, which is quite funny, is one of the ways he crowd funds is people pay$1 ,000 to be an extra.

9:56That's a great idea. Oh yeah, they pay to be in it. But you can't tell. It doesn't look like there's loads of people just staring right into the camera and causing lots of trouble. They seem to be very biddable. But I think I sense from the way you talk about it, you do have an admiration for the way that Dallas Jenkins has gone about this. He has actually done it with a slight twinkle in his eye. So it absolutely appeals to the marketplace he's trying to appeal to. But you can watch it as a punter as well. Yes, he's got to compete with all that stuff. And also people are used to seeing things like that.

10:24And people are used to seeing these very textured things with lots of great supporting characters and these kind of sprawling stories. And, you know, the IP is free, as we've previously said. Well, it is absolutely. And also there's sort of no shortage of stories as well. that you can go in any different direction with. Is it the sort of thing that you think might be a fun, ironic watch for a group of students? I think it's too good for that. No, I don't think. No, no, no, no. It is. I mean, even the first season, which people say, oh, it's not nearly as good as how it gets. You know, you can see, obviously, like anyone writing.

10:53And as I say, he's directed every episode and everybody becomes much better when you've made that much TV. And it's dark. You know, it's dark. It's lots of dark stuff in it. There's everyone, myself included, sitting at home now going, just at the start of this I didn't think I was going to watch it and even five minutes in I thought well maybe I'll just sort of watch two minutes of it and now I feel like I'm going to have to just watch five seasons of this thing well yeah or just watch like episode one and then watch episode one of season three and episode one of season four or something like that but if you really don't think you're going to watch it which I can totally totally understand there is just simply too much television but it is interesting and presumably huge around the world it's very very big around the world certain markets probably more resistant than others Yes, absolutely.

11:35Certain markets are more resistant than others. I don't think it's massive in the Middle East. As I say, you know, I'm not a religious person, but it's a very interesting story and it's very well told. But that is genuinely worth having a little look at. It's the first thing I'm going to do when I get back. Again, it's so fascinating when a story comes along that you think you know and you think, oh, OK, someone needs to put their Bible stories in a TV programme. I bet that's X, Y, Z. And someone says, do you know what, it's really worth watching. and someone who's done it has done it with skill and heart and care.

12:03And, yeah, I will definitely be watching. And it's a monster hit. Oh, a monster hit. Listen, even better. I'm in the Bible. But no one talks about it. You never – and I've sensed that we might talk about the mainstream media in another item we're going to do today, but you don't get any coverage of it, even though it has huge amounts of viewers and it's a really big thing. And it's just one of those things that you think – when things get a hold on the discourse, and as we've said before, people write millions of articles about succession or the final episode of, I don't know, whatever it may be.

12:30But they don't write anything about something that is also a huge hit. It's also the biggest selling book of all time, isn't it? If you think about how many Agatha Christie adaptations are, she's the second biggest selling author of all time. Even you have not sold that many books. Less than the Bible. Although we do have a thing where it's in the bedside drawer of every single hotel in America now, which is nice. I'd love that. That would be quite welcome. Shall we, after that, go for a lovely ad break? Please, let's. At Sierra, discover great deals on top brand workout gear Like high quality walking shoes Which might lead to another discovery 40 ,000 steps baby Who's on top now, Karen?

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14:55Welcome back, everyone. From a huge unexpected hit, we've still got a huge flop to come, but we're going to talk about Rotten Tomatoes, review bombing, etc. now. Yes, review bombing, this is the practice of, I don't know, is it trolling, is it clicktivism, is it campaigning? Clicktivism. Some people do not think that review bombing exists, and fan communities will say, no, this is just in the old days, entertainment or whatever was passed down to us like stone tablets. you know you could either not buy it or not show up for it or in whatever way you could reject it and now obviously because of these online movements we can do a lot more i mean we do traditionally see it if you look at the top review bombed products in a male-dominated fan space where a woman has been given some lines i'm just i'm paraphrasing slightly but brie larson as captain marvel she has to talk about the haters in every interview now but yeah when when mary migdalen turned up in the chosen there is actually no there is a whole plot line about people were like, well, hang on, because she has a relapse in one of the seasons after she's been saved.

15:56Spoiler. Well, sorry. Yeah, so anyway, sorry. We're going to get off the chosen now. But yeah, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, The Last Jedi, Ghostbusters, the one with the women. Yes, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, so as I say, I'm noticing a trend in the review bomb things. Any form of sort of social issue that the fandom feels has been pushed down their throat in the parlance of these things. Because star ratings are incredibly important, especially fan star ratings. So you have Rotten Tomatoes, is the thing we're going to talk about mainly. And that's this website. It was started in 1998. It originally started purely as a website for rating Jackie Chan films.

16:35Did you know that? That's what it started as. These three guys set it up and they just were obsessed with Jackie Chan. So they set up this site. That's so much better than rating women like Facebook. Well done, guys. Well done, guys. Thank you. It was just Jackie Chan related. I'm sorry that some people have used your site for L now, but then you know 10 years later they sold it for an undisclosed sum which i imagine was uh was quite a lot but it's a huge deal in the industry it's a huge deal for publicists in the industry it's a huge deal for the studios uh you know and if you can get uh verified fresh which is you have to be 75 percent of 80 reviews have to be positive ones yeah and that essentially it's a big deal a lot of people use rotten tomatoes a lot of people decide what movies to go yeah check it before they go out and this whole thing of you know speaking of gatekeepers of movie critics being the gatekeepers to all these sort of things those big time critics died or they retired and they haven't really been replaced and this site has become more and more and more and more important and alongside the critics is also um the public are allowed to rate things and you have to have proof that you've seen a film yeah for the public 90 is the threshold to be certified fresh because the public like things more than critics like them so if you're above 90 % you're certified fresh below you're not and if you're below I think 60 % you are rotten and you can see how that can very easily be gained so it's a it's it's a very common thing to bomb these things as it is by the way in Amazon book ratings which we will get to but you have now started to be able to bet on a movie's rotten tomatoes score and a lot of people are making a lot of money from it who started this thing someone called Kalshi has done Well, Calci is the site where you can gamble on pretty much everything, crypto, all sorts of stuff.

18:17But you can now also bet on box office and you can bet on Rotten Tomatoes scores. There are various places you can bet on lots of different entertainment things. Obviously, if it moves, you can bet on it. Like people will bet on any old thing. So I was interested. It's a real kind of, I don't know, it's like a form of tracking, isn't it, really? Because I looked on and I thought, Joker, Foliadon. Now that comes out on, I think, October the 4th. 54 % chance that it will get an above 60 rating. That's not going to be making Todd Phillips very happy. Gladiator, there was a 63 % chance it will be above 79.

18:51I was interested to go on the site and see all the other things, but apparently it's taking in like 300 ,000, maybe more a week. It takes in a lot. And here's the interesting thing. The thing it tells us about entertainment is the people who can really game it. You know, you get professional gamblers in any sphere who are the people who understand how to gamble and then get banned from all the sites. don't forget the bookies always win so we're going to talk about gambling a lot we are not recommending gambling um but i was reading about some of the people who are making quite a lot of money on it and they say well here are some of the things that we look at we look at how many test screenings there are because uh you can really tell whether a movie is doing well if you keep testing it in different markets because they're building some momentum for a film we look at who has reviewed it early and there are some very tame reviewers and they get named in a couple of articles.

19:38They said they've spent two years and they have not given a bad review to anything. And they're saying this is in two years where Borderlands, Madame Web has come out. So if we see the early reviews coming in and we see they're from pet reviewers, we know that this is a bad movie. So however, if we see suddenly, you know, they're giving it to one of the big dogs, then you think, okay, this one's going to be good. So these are the things that they are looking at. They're looking at the tactics of the PR industry and the tactics of the industry in the textures of the studios. And so that's how you kind of work out if a movie is going to do well with the critics and do well with the public as well.

20:13It's speculation on entertainment, but I do think it's slightly speculation as entertainment. I would honestly much rather spend a really long time thinking what exactly I think Joker, Foglia, Duh will get than I will actually want to watch it, you know. But I would enjoy that a lot more. I think there's a certain sort of... I mean, I gamble very rarely and only on things that I think I know something about. So there are lots of these things when anyone who's just willing to, whatever it is, filter out the noise and listen to the signal. I think that's really interesting. Yeah, you can bet on a lot of UK entertainment shows.

20:46Going back to Rotten Tomatoes for a moment, it's fascinating. The one thing, you know, I said just then that the public tend to rate things higher than critics, which I think we sort of intrinsically understand. There are two areas where the critics score things higher than the general public. so two areas that critics prefer to the general public and they are documentaries all documentaries and dark comedies and that's why Hollywood is terrified of dark comedies because they always do it, it's like TV they do brilliantly, they get written about everywhere and the viewing public just goes no, I guess it's admirable there's stuff in the broadsheets but the general public are going yeah, I don't know, it's a comedy I just wondered if it could be really funny why don't we just make that much, much funnier I've got this obsession with people putting jokes in comedy, Richard.

21:35I know. Where is it going to get you? It will not last. I was looking, do you mind if I put you through a top three? Yes, please. I know often we do these on the question and answer. I'm going to do top three here. The top three rated films of all time on Rotten Tomatoes, and that is mixing up critic scores with the public scores. I'll give you three and two, and we'll see if we can guess what number one is. Okay. So the third best movie of all time, according to Rotten Tomatoes, critics and punters, is Casablanca. number two is The Godfather number one any idea any idea at home I wonder if it's like something like an Adam Sandler film or something ridiculous no I mean seriously yeah I know I know what you mean it is LA Confidential oh which I absolutely love you and literally everybody else in the entire world how interesting isn't that crazy I absolutely love it you haven't seen that please watch it it's so good Curtis Hansen I think wrote it as well it's got great people in it and Kevin Spacey I don't know if we've Lodge referred to as great anymore, but anyway, he's very good in it.

22:32That's amazing. It's still the most popular film of all time. That's extraordinary. So that's Rotten Tomatoes. As I say, it's a very interesting place. It's sort of part-owned by some of the studios, in the same way that everything was owned by everyone. They were bought by, I think, ING, who were then bought by someone else, who were then bought by someone else. So Warner's now owns... I think some tickets firm's got some stake in it. Yes, Fandango. And that's that you have to buy your tickets through Fandango to be able to think, oh yeah, listen, I get it. Listen, everyone's making a buck. But it is a fascinating sight to look at.

23:01And you can go trawling on that for hours and hours and hours. I saw a brilliant thing this week. By the end of the show, I shall find this out. But it was statistically proving who the worst actor of all time is via Rotten Tomatoes and box office and their pay. By the medium of science. Yeah, exactly. And you have to have starred in at least six movies and looked at what their budget was and how little they made and all that kind of stuff. And it was Madonna was top of that list. I think it's fair. I've seen all the work, sometimes more than once, sometimes sober. The guy did it. He said, I absolutely set out doing this knowing for a fact that number one would be Steven Seagal.

23:43And I was gutted to see he was only eighth. Who I can hardly hear a word against, even though I'm a Seagal completist. Oh, really? Yeah, I've got his novel. He wrote a novel, Stephen Seagal? I'll bring it in next week. It's called something like The Way of the Shadow Wolves. I've got his appearance on VHS on the Celebrity Guide to Wine. I've got a huge amount. What's his tipple? One of the wines. The red one or the white one. I can't remember. One of the ones they do. I have a full trove of Seagal stuff. Our lovely producer Neil has just sent me. It is statsignificant.com is where I got that. statsignificant.com, which is so brilliant for all sorts of things.