The Harry Styles Conspiracy

5:35Marina Hyde:Eamon Andrews is a brilliant presenter in lots of ways but was given one of the first chat shows.

5:39Richard Osman:He used to do This Is Your Life in the UK.

5:41Marina Hyde:He used to do lots of things, but he sweated on air so much. It actually became a sort of running joke, and it just didn't work out, this chat show, at all. But then David Frost, who had come from That Was The Week That Was.

5:55Richard Osman:They're going, we need someone who's not going to sweat, and Frost sounds good.

5:59Marina Hyde:He had this thing called the Frost Program, and he did some in America. This is such a sort of Concord thing. He did some in America. He did eight shows a week, actually, and was sort of able to do that because of Concord when you kind of fly in and you arrive before you leave. Then there were other sort of 60s ones that were really like a vibe. There was Simon D and that was so sort of shagadelic.

6:21Richard Osman:Simon D is probably the most famous person who no one has now heard of.

6:26Marina Hyde:Who no one has ever heard of.

6:26Richard Osman:Talking of falling from a position of extreme fame to being a footnote. I think he might be the leading candidate for it.

6:36Marina Hyde:I mean, that idea that the swinging 60s actually was only 17 people at Mick Jagger in London and everyone else didn't experience the 60s in that way at all. But Simon D would look like he was having a good time. He was in the middle of it. And he looked like he was in the middle of it. Anyway, then they go to Shirley the Doyen, Michael Parkinson. And he says, I don't want a desk. This is one of the decisions that they would have had to have had with Claudia. And what you see that they've got, they've got a curve. I can already see from the set, they've got a curved sofa round a coffee table and all the guests will go together and her chair as an armchair.

7:07Marina Hyde:But Michael Parkinson said, I don't want a desk, even though he came from a news background. And he had those kind of Eames chairs and it was a sort of... But it's extraordinary when you think of all... He had these amazing guests and he had guests that returned, not because they necessarily had things to promote, but because they just were... And they became part of the sort of Michael Parkinson law and also things like the Muhammad Ali law, because Muhammad Ali was one of his most famous kind of serial guests. and when you go back over some of the moments they're sort of extraordinary. There's one episode which I was watching again at the weekend where Ali really goes for him and just, I mean it's extraordinary and you think this could never happen now.

7:42Marina Hyde:I will never see things like this. Even the thing of Emu, you'll think that I would never see that now. Rod Hull and Emu, the puppet.

7:49Richard Osman:Or if you saw it, it would be a YouTube clip that had been set up.

7:52Marina Hyde:Yes, everything is so contrived and these things happened. By and large they weren't recorded live. Some of them were, but they were allowed to happen. And Billy Connolly, who became famous basically by appearing on that chat show. And then there were things like Meg Ryan, which was much later on. And he looked back on it and thought, actually, I was really difficult in that interview.

8:10Richard Osman:And also, by the way, he was a terrific interviewer, Michael Parkinson. But anyone who says, oh, we don't have anyone like that anymore. It's nonsense. We live in a completely different culture. We live in an absolutely saturated culture where that cannot exist, where, you know, we have so much more access to celebrities these days than we did then. And, you know, that was, you know, a sort of spotlight onto a world that we had no other spotlight onto.

8:34Marina Hyde:The promotional world is so developed now, the circuit of it all. Exactly. And how it's managed.

8:38Richard Osman:So you could not do a Parkinson these days. And it's not because people are not as talented as him, talented though he was. It's just the world is a completely different place.

8:48Marina Hyde:Yeah. Claudia's show has been pre-recorded. And most of these shows ended up being, some of them were live, but most of them ended up being pre-recorded. a big part of that was that Dez O 'Connor tonight which was ITV's kind of ITV had various attempts to you know they had Russell Hardy they had various attempts to sort of try and beat the dominance of of Parky which was not really possible um who was obviously on the BBC but and eventually he they took him to ITV but this was so much later in the career but Dez O 'Connor tonight there is a really famous episode but I went back and watched it and a lot more happens on the famous episode where the live goes so wrong for Dez O 'Connor tonight first of all the thing that everyone remembers is that the comedian Stan Boardman, you won't remember this if you're listening to this podcast, but it's a sort of famous episode and why the show could never be live again.

9:33Marina Hyde:Stan Boardman, who was a comedian, went on and told a joke about World War II flying aces that used the word Fokkers, the airplane, a lot. You can imagine where that went. And it's actually a really good joke. And I mean, Stan Boardman's got a lot of jokes that wouldn't age Let's put it that way. But the next guest tonight is Ollie Reed. And they found out he had some sort of tattoo somewhere. And Desi Connor says to him, now you've got a tattoo in a very unusual place. And he says, yes, on my cock. This is all live ITV. Okay. So it's like, what? What? Okay. The final guest is Freddie Starr.

10:13Richard Osman:Oh, man.

10:13Marina Hyde:Who is, I mean, it's quite hard, you know.

10:16Richard Osman:They've got Boardman Reed Starr.

10:18Marina Hyde:I know. It's like on a live show.

10:20Richard Osman:I'll tell you what, that'll be next year's BAFTAs.

10:22Marina Hyde:Yeah. Anyway, the history of Ollie Reid, by the way, on chat shows could be a whole separate bonus episode. But anyway, Freddie Starr ends up doing sort of V signs to feminists and all of this thing. It is Complaintsmageddon. So that is why most chat shows have never been live in the UK. It's amazing. It's an 86 and it's all in one show. okay so then there's there's people like aspel who's never quite you know like a not parkinson wogan is massive three nights a week you know he has iconic guests george best i mean actually david ike who i think first comes out as the son of god on uh wogan that's if you're a chat show

11:00Richard Osman:host and someone comes out as the son of god you're like okay this is good okay i've got something here yeah you know when everyone's looking for like sort of a like a news item off the back of their interview if someone's sort of you know david like starts talking about country city

11:12Marina Hyde:goalkeeper is now son of god he's quite a good he's talking about football focus and then he

11:16Richard Osman:then he says oh no i am actually the son of god you are you know any journalist is thinking oh

11:21Marina Hyde:that feels like we've got something well yeah those are the good ideas let's just put it like that but then then things but again it becomes very influenced by america particularly letterman who i think is the like the great sort of giant of all of these things and then so jonathan ross does the last resort which is a very different sort of chat show in lots of in many many different ways and then you get just people like jack doherty who channel five launched when they launched i think they had him on five nights a week at the start yeah and in hit that when obviously he was having time off he was allowed to be replaced by graham norton yeah what a stand in i think they both get nominated in the same year yeah which must have been nominated for the same show as your stand in yeah oh that's that's not good is it um and then anyway but the bbc He obviously realised, and Graham Norton does various other things at Channel 4, but the BBC realised he's such a talent and they almost sign him without having anything.

12:14Marina Hyde:But it's sort of felt that he'll do an interview show, which he has ended up doing. And now, in the off-season of Graham Norton, we shall have Claudia.

12:23Richard Osman:The fascinating thing really about the history of chat shows on British TV is how few of them there are, compared to America where they're the absolute mainstay of their schedules.

12:31Marina Hyde:I'm sorry, I should have mentioned Davina McCall had one. It lasted for something like eight episodes. it didn't work out. So Mrs. Merton, I always think that's a, I mean, they did have real people, but it was so brilliant. She's, you know, Carolina Hearn's so amazing. It is really a comedy show. It's not completely fictional like Alan Partridge, knowing me, knowing you, the first series ever of Alan Partridge. But I, but it is to me a comedy programme, so I'm not quite including it. Perhaps I should.

12:57Richard Osman:No, I don't think you can. But also there have been hundreds of like short run chat shows. Lots of other little. Every single, pretty much every, you can split anyone who becomes famous into two. The second you become famous and people go, oh, that's interesting. The public seemed to like you. Is there anything you would like to do? Half of all people who are newly famous and who are put in a room with a commissioner, I would say almost exactly 50 % of them say the thing I would like to do is a chat show.

13:25Marina Hyde:Why do you think that is?

13:26Richard Osman:Well, it's twofold, which is it looks like you're interested in human beings. so it looks like you're a good guy but actually you're very very aware that there is an awful lot of you in it that actually most of it is you and especially these days when you know segments that get you know chopped up and put on on youtube or a thing so i think it's one of those things where certainly if you're a comic you think a comic is used to doing crowd work and a comic is used to working with people or working with writers and comics used to working off people So if you're a comic, you think, oh, this is like an hour-long conversation where I do half of it.

14:05Richard Osman:And I'm constantly being fed stuff. And I won't really have to do any prep. I'll probably have to read a few briefs about it. And I'll probably have to watch someone's film. But really, I can just be funny. So that's what they all want to do. Commissioners do not want any of those people to do a chat show. Because you do not want chat shows on British TV because they do not rate. They just don't. I mean, it is of no interest to a commissioner. panel shows rate on British TV and you know formats like that that's the stuff that rates on British TV and people would always if you're Jimmy Carr if you're Alan Carr if you're whoever they'd always rather put you in a format that's how British TV works however much you know that piece of talent would like to do a chat show and the truth is they wouldn't want you know really don't want to do a chat show it does it never makes anyone look particularly good there's very few people who can do it Graham Jonathan pretty much the only people who can do it everyone else fails at it.

14:56Richard Osman:So the question is, will Claudia succeed? If anyone in the current climate of

15:03Marina Hyde:British television can succeed, it would be Claudia, I would think, for all sorts of different reasons.

15:09Richard Osman:I did mention at the beginning, I do think it's worth noting where she is in her career and why when Claudia walks into a room and says, I'd like to do a chat show, they say yes. There's a number of different reasons. Firstly, yes, she is now officially the highest rating presenter on British tv and that has been ant and deck for as long as anyone can remember it's like growing up you know with the queen you just think i can't ever imagine anything will ever change here ant and deck have been the absolute you know top of the ratings for as long as anyone can remember huge franchises and we all know why because they are sensationally brilliant but now their magic mirror is showing

15:46Marina Hyde:someone else to be the fairest of them all it's so well because they you know they they have a

15:51Richard Osman:couple of formats which are perhaps towards the end of um where they should be and they have they haven't yet you know done done the new ones whereas claudia strictly which of course is beyond enormous traitors has absolutely pushed her into a completely different dimension but again we're at the start of that cycle um she you know she's even had a hit on channel four you know the uh the the piano um she said lots of things on channel four this is on cross on channel four at the moment there's sort of nothing that she can't do she you know she people are happy to see her on adverts you know she's done radio shows forever but you know it has taken her it's worth remembering you know when people say oh they put the same people on all the time she's on tv for 34 years before she became the biggest rating presenter on british television

16:35Marina Hyde:i remember her 10 years ago saying to me i i absolutely i just do so many interviews with people you know just things behind the scenes stuff that you wouldn't see not not that's on tv or anything like that just sort of maybe that's corporate jobs or whatever and interviewing celebrities even but behind the scenes for in kind of closed areas and she said i just is that's my i would love to interview people and that's 10 years ago and she's been pretty successful ever

16:58Richard Osman:since then and yet and and she's only just been given this chat show she she started as a early 90s um you know she came from a media family so that you know she she started as a journalist she would do travel writing all sorts of things like that and then suddenly she's on the you know holiday program she had a career that could not exist anymore okay the the the claudia winkman and the ant and deck of 20 years time will not start where they started she had a career that started you know as i say on the holiday program bbc3 sort of went oh she's fun she's smart she's not a comedian but she's funny yeah people seem to find her relatable which is the absolute kind of golden egg.

17:41Richard Osman:Is it golden egg or golden goose? It's both, right?

17:44Marina Hyde:Yeah.

17:44Richard Osman:The goose lays the egg. Do you know what I mean? I don't need to tell you that. So she does an awful lot of work on BBC Three. There are a million formats that she does, and that's why this world doesn't exist anymore. And it was the era that I grew up in TV as well, where you were sending 20, 30 formats a year, most of which people would never have heard of. she did a great format like a like a dating format on bbc3 called three's a crowd yes uh and i think that's the first that's the first time i think someone went oh do you know what why didn't you just be yourself which is a really funny relatable woman who seems to like other human beings um and obviously if she came along now that that avenue would would not be open to her she did that she then this is the this is why 34 years it's taken her to be the biggest rating thing that's all i'll say she says yes to oh i will do i will do the bbc3 companion show to fame academy yes yeah so i would do fame academy which which you know with i mean god love it and i i was at end when when we made it it was not first string uh singing talent show yeah i was about to say it was a singing talent show just people who in a big house strangely can't remember it yeah and back in those days you did any show like that you would always do a companion show on bbc3 because television was awash with money and they didn't know where to spend it because all the advertising money went to television where now it goes elsewhere.

19:15Richard Osman:Anyway, so there was a lot of money around. So you would make a companion show to a singing show that wasn't a particularly popular singing show. Anyway, she did that. She was absolutely terrific on that. She did it so well that actually when Fame Academy came back, because these things came back, she did the main show. but more importantly someone else who was making a um companion show saw that fame academy companion show went oh this woman can really do mainstream but she can be really funny and she can do whimsy and she seems to be interested in what people are saying to her and she seems to have to come back and those are the people who are making strictly it takes two yeah so they give her strictly it takes two and when you do strictly it takes two for a few years the rest is light entertainment history the rest is light entertainment history because you are first in line to do strictly which she absolutely does and that's where she'd been in tv a long time that's probably the first time that the british public as a whole actually knew who she was

20:10Marina Hyde:there's i mean yeah that's mainstream yeah a lot of people listen to this podcast we

20:14Richard Osman:consume a lot of media most people do not and you'd be amazed at how few people know the people that you know yeah you know yeah it really said you know claudia if they knew her for anything it would be literally because of Strictly It Takes Two. There'd be a go, oh, that's nice. So she does Strictly, becomes the most loved person on British television. As you say, sort of in the same year as Strictly, I think maybe the year before, she also takes over from Jonathan Ross on the film show, which shows another side of who she is. You can sort of put her in anything. There's very few people who could do a serious film review show could do Strictly and could do Crufts and do all those things and make them better by being who they are.

20:57Richard Osman:So that's the career that she has had, I would say. And obviously post that, she's done Traitors. I can go through some of her flops, by the way, because there's plenty, but that's the thing about being a presenter. When you're hot, you're hot. Well, most shows fail.

21:10Marina Hyde:Yeah.

21:10Richard Osman:You know what I mean? I mean, she did one question on Channel 4, if people know that, the quiz show. You know, that failed. She did Eurovision Dance Contest. She did Britain's Best Home Cook, which surprised me that it failed, but it did fail. But, you know, then she does Great British Sewing Bee. She has enough hits that people give her work. And Traitors comes along and you think, well, who's the perfect host for this? Everybody loves Claudia. We'll give it to Claudia. So that is an enormous hit. And all of this is to say when on Friday night you do or don't sit down to watch Claudia doing that show, do not listen to anyone who says, oh, my God, they'll give anyone a chat show.

21:47Richard Osman:But you know what I mean? this is a woman who's done great work for 34 years on television who's had a series of massive hits in completely different genres who as you say has shown a willingness throughout all of that time to behind the scenes be interested in human beings and talk to people and find out about careers and be interested in different bits of the business and she wanted to do it yeah and when claudia goes into the bbc and she's got graham stewart and joe magnuson and the team at so tv who make graham that is just about the only thing that can make a television channel break the golden rule of never ever ever give anybody a chat show that's the one of the few times where you think do you know what that might actually work and i think for claudia i mean i hope it's a huge success and as i say people who were at the recording um absolutely loved it but it is definitively the right idea at the right time with the right person it might still fail because almost everything does fail but I just think it's interesting the career that she's had the uh the work that she's done this the popularity that she's gained over the years uh and it's taken her 34 years but it is quite historic a woman doing it I have to say because

23:06Marina Hyde:A high profile one, yeah. If it works, it will be historic. I mean, I was thinking, I mean, obviously, Parkey is amazing. But for me, maybe the best interviewer completely is Kirsty Young. I think she's absolutely phenomenal. But that's a different thing. She did Desert Island Discs and it's done in a, you know, and that's on the radio and that's separate to this.

23:27Richard Osman:But which, of course, is a chat show. Which is a chat show.

23:29Marina Hyde:Yeah, but she is an, if you listen to, I mean, I think she is peerless, honestly. Okay, the first guests, we know who they are. So can we just talk about, if you're putting together this line up. Yeah, okay. So Claudia's first guests are Jeff Goldblum promoting his band, the Mildred Schnitzer Orchestra.

23:47Richard Osman:I mean, listen, Jeff, if you want to come on, you're sorry, you're promoting what? Fine. I'm sorry, what now? Fine. Of course, we'll do a quiz. When you watch it on Friday, time how long they spend talking about that band. Unless it's a bit, unless they go, why don't you play us something, or why don't you do it, or you turn it into a sketch.

24:05Marina Hyde:Yes

24:06Richard Osman:You know that's a possibility

24:09Marina Hyde:Vanessa Williams Who's been playing Miranda Priestly In the Devil Wears Prada In the West End For quite a long time now So it's not like She's starting next week Jennifer Saunders National Treasure covered Who's going to be In the Magic Faraway Tree Which is new And which is coming up And Tom Allen Who's got his new book Common Decency But that's just

24:27Richard Osman:He's a great comic Yeah

24:28Marina Hyde:So that thing of plugging I mean yes Jeff I'm sure he will be Plugging his band What do you think about that

24:35Richard Osman:mix of guests i think that this show will live or die on its production nothing else you know it just it just will you know if they make it well if they've got interesting items and as i say they've got interesting audience things and if it allows claudia to be claudia the audience by the

24:50Marina Hyde:way they've said they sort of want them to dress up so that gives you a sense of the maybe what they're going to try and go for they've said something like no gilets no sort of you know not your workaday clothes they want you to be like we're all getting glammed up for a night with Claudia as far as I can see from the there have been instructions as to what they should

25:09Richard Osman:yeah yeah to turn it into something and as you say Claudia's been planning this a very very long time and she's got great producers as well and we are aware that we are in a world where Chachas you look at the you know the late night stuff in America at the moment and it is all about what you clip from that and what are the bits and you know how you make your host a personality and the guests sometimes are sort of ciphers and you know it works for them because people are watching and you do get to talk about your band. It's whether it gives Claudia the opportunity to be Claudia. And if it does, then people will want to come on because it will get good ratings.

25:42Richard Osman:And that's all you really want in return for going on a show. Look at Graham.

25:47Marina Hyde:He's now in Taylor Swift videos. He's going to the wedding. It's hilarious.

25:50Richard Osman:But he is sensationally good at what he does. And people are quite bad at alternate realities of how differently you could do that show. And almost everyone would do that worse than Graham. He makes it look effortless. if anyone else can do that it is claudia she certainly has the goodwill of the british public that's for sure i just i don't want people to say i can't believe oh god will they give anyone a chat show no they will they the whole point is they will give nobody a chat show nobody nobody nobody nobody who has any money in television wants to spend it on a chat show no one this is

26:26Marina Hyde:anyone who's listened to the show richard now knows that for sure and they will take your message out into the wider world, into their living rooms, and they will impart it to anyone who doesn't quite understand it.

26:36Richard Osman:That said, Channel 4, I would be interested in doing one. I'm sort of free. I'm free now. House of Games, my bit of it is done. And I just, I like talking to people. That's me. You know, I like talking to celebrities. I would do, every single celebrity always goes, everyone pitches this. Newly famous people always say, I want to do a chat show, but with ordinary people.

26:57Marina Hyde:That's our new section, I Could Do That, in which every week Richard will pick a piece of television that he quite likes and just say, I could do that.

27:05Richard Osman:I couldn't do it, though. I'd be terrible at a chat. I wouldn't be any good at a chat show. It's really, really, really, really difficult to make a chat show.

27:13Marina Hyde:I think you'd be good. No. I don't think that's true. No.

27:15Richard Osman:I would actually, I prefer to do a chat show with ordinary people. I think that's more fun. And I do think there's a show there.

27:21Marina Hyde:Has anyone ever done that?

27:22Richard Osman:No, but it's what everyone pitches.

27:24Marina Hyde:Oh, really?

27:24Richard Osman:Everyone always pitches that. And it is interesting.

27:27Marina Hyde:Because actually, do you know, okay, just as a sort of, You know that The Observer always used to have that feature in the magazine. They have this much do I know. And sometimes they have famous people do it and tell you all the sort of, you know, their theories on life. It's so much more fun when they get like a florist or a bikini waxer or whatever. Well, because you learn stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's really, really interesting.

27:46Richard Osman:Well, that's what you know, because there is a point at which doing a chat show is the law of diminishing returns. Because everyone's been on, everyone who is on a chat show has been on so many chat shows. And, you know, it's kind of.

27:55Marina Hyde:So tell me a tiny bit more. So people always preach the real life people chat show. Yes. But it never. yeah well because no one wants to show so they're like you know you can't say a chat show with real

28:03Richard Osman:people without saying chat show the truth is ordinary non-showbiz people can be much much much more interesting if you've got a good booker which is you know what you need on this is and they've spoken to people people with extraordinary stories or who do extraordinary jobs or who can tell you something about an ordinary job that you wouldn't know that's fascinating but it is still a chat show and therefore it will not get made yeah we had an idea once called the chat show of doom which I really liked which had you had five guests and the audience would vote off the most boring one after each round so the first round would be give us an anecdote from your school days and the second round would be you know bring on a friend and you know the third round

28:39Marina Hyde:Are these real human civilians or celebrities?

28:42Richard Osman:celebrities Oh then it's fine Otherwise I thought it sounded inhumane Exactly Oh my god Yeah, no we wouldn't Yeah, that works with celebs and then you know the people who get voted off stand on the sideline and they can ask questions Oh I like that Yeah, I know but again back in the days of TV when there was so much money probably could have get made but anyway anyway i absolutely digress claudia is doing a straight up chat show there are very very very few of them uh and uh i wish it every success it's got absolutely the best people involved with it almost all television fails but i have my fingers crossed for this one 10 40 on friday friday the 13th as claudia has been the

29:21Marina Hyde:very first person to point out of course that's good that you but that's claudia all over the

29:25Richard Osman:Self-deprecation is a persona. I mean, yeah, of course. She would have been the second they'd go, oh, that's Friday the 13th. Is that the problem? She'd go, no, that is perfect. I have absolute plausible deniability.

29:38Marina Hyde:Right. Please, I think we should take a break now, but do join us after the break where we will be talking about Harry Styles.

29:45Richard Osman:He'd be a good guest.

29:46Marina Hyde:Oh, he'd be a super guest.

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31:44Marina Hyde:welcome back everybody now we're going to talk about harry styles he's got a new album out title kiss all the time disco occasionally yeah i was trying to make think what it reminded me of and i couldn't quite and alexis petridis who i love he's the guardian sort of music writer said it sounds like something you'd see on a poster in a kitchen next to a sign informing you that it's prosecco o 'clock and it's very interesting because he's with that question now one of the sort of most famous guys on the planet it's a you know he's still pretty young he's had some time Well, in the modern world, this is called having some time away.

32:18Marina Hyde:His last tour finished in 2023. Lazy. And he's, yeah. Well, he went away. He went to Italy, also brought out a sex toy range. He's diversified. Sure. To give you, we'll come back to this, but to give you a little window into what it's like being Harry Styles, I think he did an interview saying that, you know, he'd really loved being in Italy and taking this time away. and he loved the pace of Rome and being able to sit and just have his coffee and just he thought the Italians were great or something like that. The level of backlash on that from online, from like you don't understand anything or you don't understand Rome, you don't understand the modern world, you're so privileged.

32:58Marina Hyde:This is what it's like to live in a world where you just say, I've quite enjoyed having a cup of coffee and not having to be in a rush or something. I was thinking about something like Alanis Morissette bringing out a song called Thank You, which is the chorus is Thank You, India. let me tell you you could do things like that 30 years ago these days you cannot have an interview about saying how you quite like not having to do anything in Rome before people kind of completely kick back on you and so it's interesting living in a world where anything you say can be backlashed against and I think we'll come on to that as we end up talking about him more but he's in order for this new album he's going to do he's not going to tour particularly he's going to do residencies he's doing 12 nights at Wembley and 30 nights at Madison Square Gardens which is totally extraordinary and he's obviously decided that he doesn't want to particularly move around and you're at that stage which is sort of difficult I think when you're a music artist where you can do whatever you want if you're as famous and as successful as Harry Styles that is actually it's to some degree dangerous territory for artists but you can and so the fans will have to come to him and obviously in the US that involves airfares and hotel rooms and things like that and the prices anyway for these tickets are very very expensive and even Liam Gallagher was sort of joking that oh look our races tickets are quite reasonable now anyway this is all the backdrop to him bringing out a new album um and I have you listened to the new album yes yes yeah

34:21Richard Osman:I'm a huge Harry Styles I love Harry Styles it's a bit more I'm going to do a slightly cooler album but yeah I love it.

34:28Marina Hyde:Yes because you don't know what it's on about quite a lot of the time and I do think that's interesting in a world where all of you know the endless Easter egg culture and the endless trying to work out what everything means with lyrics even though he's quite obviously like the you of the album he talks about you doing this you doing that and you know he's sort of talking about himself it's quite you don't really know what Harry Styles is talking about and there is a point at this stage in an artist's life where they can kind of only write music about being an international pop star. What else is there?

34:57Marina Hyde:Someone like Taylor Swift manages to do it and make it relatable. I think that this is, I don't know. I found it quite hard to, quite a lot of it sounds like absolute gibberish, the lyrics. I mean, really gibberish. And I wonder if it's, there's something about, if we talk about the background of Harry Styles, Harry Styles is managed by these two, these guys by Irving and Jeff Azov, their father and son. Some people say they curate Harry Styles. You see, this is the world he has to live in, where they stage his life and none of this is true. And the Azov's themselves have become a sort of fan conspiracy kind of lightning rod.

35:37Marina Hyde:And the idea that they've created this creature, this confection, this whole facade, because as we know, the whole drive of everything now is to say, no matter how much more polished things have got, or also how more raw and authentic things have got, the whole drive of fandom now is to say this isn't what it is this is you're selling me an image and this isn't true he doesn't go out with these women or he doesn't you know there's something that's being hidden from me here but I know what it is and I think it's interesting what happened with the one direction fandom the 1D fans directioners you know those ones forged in the fires of 2010's Tom Blood those were hardcore okay they were really hardcore you know they quite the level of death threat the level of this or that just bandied out ridiculously over tiny things that energy i don't think has been destroyed but it has kind of morphed and there are whole weird schools within this fandom which is why people always think i don't believe things about harry styles or whatever although these people do they there's a larry stylenson conspiracy are you aware of this larry stylenson this is that harry and louis are together they've always been harry from one direction louis tomlinson but they had that

36:50Richard Osman:in the spice girls as well didn't they well hang on a second that well that actually did happen

36:55Marina Hyde:oh okay i'll take it back but no matter how many times harry and harry and louis denied it that shipping culture that idea that you want these relationships to be real i don't see i don't see the two of them together no well you know um there are so the larry's the sort of fandom subgroup who just believe that Louis Tomlinson's son, Freddie is like a staged event and that they have a series of actor babies and now growing up young toddlers that are sort of shipped in. But the level of how they read stuff into things, they've got this other whole conspiracy theory that attended One Direction, the Rainbow Bondage Bears.

37:30Marina Hyde:The crew puts and Teddies round in the sort of final concert and some of them had unusual costumes. They were read as secret messages to the Larrys from Harry and Louis that they were on the right track. Keep digging, guys, because you're correct. These rainbow bondage bears are sending you messages.

37:46Richard Osman:That's how I would do it. If I was having a secret gay affair with a bandmate and I wasn't supposed to say, but people had got it, I would go, do you know what? Teddy bears.

37:57Marina Hyde:Someone get down to Hamleys.

37:58Richard Osman:Rainbow, but also bondage. Yeah. That should let them know.

38:02Marina Hyde:So I guess my point about bringing all this stuff is, how do you make music about any of this stuff? If you live in a world of insanity and anything you say, he's actually Harry Styles says so little about his for someone who's obviously sort of very open and has to feel like someone who's confessional he says very little about things there are certain things there's a track called Medicine that he plays live that talks slightly about messing around with boys and girls but it's it these are just tiny lines there are whole fan treatises millions of them online about all of these stuff and I think that it becomes it becomes really hard when you're that famous to then either you kind of submit to this culture and say okay i will do what taylor swift is and and allow it to be and write these songs that i can quite or not just taylor swift by the way many many people and write diss tracks or i can write things that people can interpret in their own way and i know how they're going to interpret it and have some form of control over this or you can just become quite sort of obscurantist and i do find when i'm

39:00Richard Osman:listening to this album like what else are you going to do you're just trying to kind of be out there but also hold yourself back well you must every lyric you ever write you must think oh god no hold on i know what i'm gonna say someone could say that i know so you know you do you do sort of either incredibly specific or incredibly vague you can't you can't be anywhere in the middle

39:22Marina Hyde:yeah a modern fandom this type of obsessive fandom has been incredibly creatively destructive and i think that for me for sure you can't say anything that's why i gave up house of games

39:32Richard Osman:it's too much the stuff that they were reading in to the silver owl behind me it's just an owl come on guys it's just an owl

39:42Marina Hyde:that's a message to people that it's not just an owl and they have to keep digging

39:45Richard Osman:there is nothing happening between me and Alexander Armstrong I promise you would that there were

39:51Marina Hyde:would that there were well now you said that but I do think it's because I think it makes it very very difficult creatively and I did here's something else I was thinking about the weekend why do we have

40:01Richard Osman:I'd love to be inside your brain sometimes.

40:04Marina Hyde:No, you wouldn't.

40:05Richard Osman:Just go, oh my God, Marina at the weekends.

40:08Marina Hyde:No, but is there, I was probably just doing the washing up, but there doesn't seem the same camaraderie among the big, big male artists in the world. There is a sort of weird sisterhood, even if they don't acknowledge each other amongst the women. And I thought partly that's because all women in the public eye will have had some similar experiences, will have experienced obsessive fandom in the same way that perhaps only women feel that in that particular way. But I don't get the sense that there's like a camaraderie between, you know, Harry Styles and Alex Warren. Harry Styles and Kendrick and Bad Bunny or whatever.

40:41Marina Hyde:I mean, they all come from incredibly different places, obviously. But I don't have that sense that in a world of sort of solo artists, almost exclusively sort of big, big solo artists, I don't get that sort of vibe. Do you?

40:53Richard Osman:Yeah, he feels like he feels in a class of one, Harry.

40:57Marina Hyde:Yeah, they're all in a class of one.

40:58Richard Osman:And I know he's surrounded by great producers and writers and Kid Harpoon and people like that. He seems to be surrounded by good people, as far as I can tell. He certainly seems to be surrounded by good collaborators who are making great music. But yeah, I guess having started, it's funny where people start having started in a boy band that was so, you know, even for a manufactured band, that was super manufactured. They were all chucked out of X Factor and then they were all called back in. It was like reconstituted meat. But even though they were the five most handsome people in the category, you go, that's weird.

41:27Richard Osman:They've got Harry Styles, the most handsome boy in the whole world who can also sing. And they put some other people through. Anyway, so the whole thing had been so weirdly kind of put together in such an artificial way. And he seems to have – I'm sure, as you say, with his managers, there were people behind the scenes suggesting ways and means of putting his career together. But he seems to have chosen incredibly good collaborators and incredibly real collaborators. And he seems to be quite an authentic human being. Yeah. And he seems to enjoy his life. Talk to me through why and how much, why these tickets are so expensive.

42:03Richard Osman:They seem insanely expensive.

42:05Marina Hyde:Some of them, the top prices are hugely expensive.

42:08Richard Osman:But that seems unusual. That seems a misstep to me.

42:11Marina Hyde:Well, I agree that it seems a misstep. And particularly when you're doing residencies. If you're saying, okay, I'm going to go to Manchester. I'm going to go to Denver. I'm going to travel across countries and you can come as close as possible. if you're saying you've got to come to madison square garden which is you know fine if you live

42:29Richard Osman:in new york well it's like people who have a destination wedding and then don't have a free

42:32Marina Hyde:bar oh my god what about they also then do a destination hen weekend okay that is a war crime

42:38Richard Osman:and i could do a yeah we i can't get into it yeah i mean charging that much that much for tickets for a residency is essentially like having a destination hen do and a destination wedding

42:49Marina Hyde:And a destination wedding.

42:50Richard Osman:Oh, more of a destination stag for Harry.

42:53Marina Hyde:Yeah, and then still doing a wedding list of presents.

42:55Richard Osman:God, Harry would have a great stag.

42:57Marina Hyde:Yeah.

42:57Richard Osman:Don't you think?

42:58Marina Hyde:I think he would. I think it would be. I wouldn't know.

43:00Richard Osman:You know what? I wouldn't know what to wear to Harry's stag.

43:05Marina Hyde:He'd get one of his friends to find you some clothes. Okay. I don't see you in the Harry Styles look.

43:12Richard Osman:Stag. The Harry Styles look. The Harry Styles universe.

43:15Marina Hyde:So the tickets are very, very, very expensive. And there are people who say that this is just the... I mean, we've talked a lot about ticketing and how people are live and how people can just do sort of what they want. You don't have to. And I think even the cheapest tickets here, if Liam Gallagher is making a joke about them being very, very expensive.

43:31Richard Osman:But is there a bit of it? Is it sort of saying because there's only room for so many absolutely mega brands and really you want to be world conquering in every way? So, you know, Harry Styles would like to be the male Taylor Swift. yeah you know taylor swift definitively you know there's some huge huge huge female stars can talk about one in a second um out there in the world but she is she is above all of them yeah and is there a bit like stella artois is reassuring the expensive okay is there a bit that says you you have to you have to show your loyalty to me you have to show my primacy in the you know the the world pop culture by paying that much money well because that's how big i am and

44:15Marina Hyde:and part of what i was saying to you earlier when we were talking about this is that that stage where you can do whatever you want and you can say actually i'm not going to get on the tour bus i'm not going to travel around the united states i am just literally going to get people to come to me you can do it and it does show your power whether you should do it is another matter and I realize that touring is grueling and if you found just great headspace in Italy maybe you don't want to do that but if you are going to do it there and stay in one place then you have to factor in the cost of doing these things I think it's very if your sort of message and your vibe is I am Mr.

44:52Marina Hyde:Inclusive as we've talked of before you know there's nothing you can't really be inclusive

44:57Richard Osman:when you cost this much I guess but I want I wonder if it is like you know like De Beers holds all of the diamonds and just lets them come bit by bit to make them artificially expensive. I wonder if there is a bit that says, do you know what? If you are come to see me, you are not going to be able to afford to go and see Alex Warren or Benson Boone. It's just me. It's just Harry.

45:20Marina Hyde:Well, that's why the conspiracy theories now kind of funnel so frequently through the management because nobody wants to think that the guy they love is like this. So you have to think that there are people who are making him behave like this.

45:32Richard Osman:No, you can do what he wants.

45:33Marina Hyde:Exactly. But you see it's all part, but this is why people have to feel that because you don't really want to think that Harry Styles would rinse you without a second thought. So you have to think.

45:45Richard Osman:There's plenty of people going, you know, he could rinse me without a second thought.

45:48Marina Hyde:Well, quite right. But what they really want to say is, no, he is under the thumb of management who are making him do this. That isn't how it works.

45:57Richard Osman:Anyway, the album is terrific. It's going to be number one this week. he's also had a number one single this year Aperture which leads me can I do this geeky chart thing? Please do it so Aperture is the only song this year that would have been number one apart from Man I Need by Olivia Dean so Olivia Dean's Man I Need has been the best selling single in the UK all year like the whole of the year apart from the one week of Harry Styles however it has not been number one at any point and so I just wanted to talk about why that is it's quite geeky but if you're interested in the charts I think it's interesting so we I think most people know now the charts are based on sales and streams.

46:33Richard Osman:And the way it works is one sale is one sale, one physical sale. But it is 100 streams equals one sale. Okay, so a sale, a physical sale, that counts as one. A stream, 100 counts as one. And you add the sales together with the streaming, and that's where you get your chart position. Now, Man I Need came out last year, it was number one for one week, it was in the top 10, it was number two for seven weeks, I think it's in the top 10 it's been in the top 10 for 24 weeks huge song definitively Olivia Dean's biggest song and she's become such a massive artist but it is currently this week again it's the biggest selling song it's number eight in the charts and the reason that is I just think again I'll say this because I think it's interesting and if you're interested by the way in anything geeky in the charts there's an amazing blog called Chart Watch by a guy called James Masterson that I read every week I just I love I'm fascinated in the charts in any way but you can read about all this stuff but the reason that it is not number one is there is a thing called um acr which is accelerated chart ratio so first time on the podcast yeah uh you get scr which is standard chart ratio which is as i say that thing of 100 streams is a sale and a sale is a sale after 10 weeks in the charts if you've been in the charts for 10 weeks and you've had three consecutive weeks of declining sales you go into acr which is accelerated chart ratio and then you have to have 200 streams to count as one sale and that's to try and stop the charts being clogged up by the

48:04Marina Hyde:same songs like endlessly which even though they are oh they're insanely clogged up but it would

48:09Richard Osman:be even more clogged up and man i need after literally after the first 10 weeks had had three weeks of declining sales so from that moment on this had to have 200 streams for every single sale and that's meant that it has been it has outsold actually outsold every single number one this year apart from harry stars but there's never been number one the song that is number one at the moment is another olivia dean song it's the olivia dean and sam fender duet rein me in so that's number one as i say sold fewer than the other one but that has been out it went to number one two weeks ago three weeks ago and holds the record for it had been in the top 40 for 35 weeks before it went to number one before it went to number one which is a record there's been lots of records that took years and years to get to number one but that had been consecutively in the top 40 for 35 weeks before it hit number one if you look at the chart sales of it it has never had three weeks in a row of declining sales so it has never gone into acr it is still in scr it's still 100 streams for a sale uh and a couple of times it's had two weeks in a row where where it's dropped and then the next week it's gone up again so it's never ever ever gone into acr so that is number one despite the fact that man i need sells more copies a song like ray's where the head is my husband it's about number 14 this week that went into acr after about 10 weeks as well so all of those old songs the acr songs will be much much higher up the charts but because of this thing which is attempting to stop there being all of these kind of uh being gummed up even though it is so gummed There are 19 songs in the top 100 at the moment that have been there for over a year.

49:50Richard Osman:19 songs. I'll go through some of them. Espresso by Sabrina Carpenter is still in there. Good Luck Babe, Chapel Rowan. Stargazing, Miles Smith. Aperture, of course, Stick Season is still in the charts. That's So True, Gracie Abrams. Messy, Lowly Young. Loose Control by Teddy Swims. That's still in there. You've still got Mr. Brightside by The Killers, which has been in the chart for 495 weeks. But without ACR, these things would be even higher up. So it's an attempt to stop this happening, but the charts are not what they were. That's why you don't have Top of the Pops anymore, because it's the same songs week after week.

50:21Marina Hyde:But don't you have that feeling? This is what we've been talking about before, which is that sort of slight feeling of cultural inertia and that you're sort of stuck in treacle and you can't move forward in the way, at the speed of which you did, because a huge part of modernity is the kind of shock of the new. And there are obviously bits of UK music that are the kind of sub genres that are very avant-garde. And there's lots of churn and it's very interesting. Something like drill or whatever it is, or I don't know, you know, experimental indie or something like that. There's a lot going on.

50:52Richard Osman:Yeah, there's lots of amazing music out there.

50:53Marina Hyde:The pop is becoming very conservative.

50:55Richard Osman:Well, it sort of is. I mean, it's brilliant. I mean, there are so many amazing pop. I mean, there's so many huge, amazing pop tunes. They just hang around for a really, really, really long time. in a way they sort of come classics long before the classics of the 80s did because something like ordinary by alex warren which has been in the chart for over a year you know it's a it's a great track beautiful things by uh benson bean you know these these songs but they they hang around for a very very very long time the other thing they try and do is so for example harry star's album's got 12 tracks on i think i think so all 12 of those would would hit the charts next week because of streaming so you don't really suffer as a single anymore it's literally just a single track counts as a single all 12 of those would be in the charts but you're only allowed three tracks in the chart so your three highest selling songs will be in the chart olivia dean funnily enough has got four because one of her songs is this duet with sam fender bruno mars has got four as well but you are in only allowed three which means the top 10 otherwise the week tater swift's album comes out the top 10 would all be tater swift you know and the week that harry stars comes out the top 10 would all be harry stars which again you can't have music is somewhere

52:02Marina Hyde:that you're not feeling that the culture is propelling and you because things hang around for so long and you definitely feel it in video games yes visual art for sure hollywood films no yeah everything feels retready uh tv sometimes but not really pop music no i just don't think so and i think that's kind of in the risk management business it's very i think it's becoming very conservative i do think that the things that hang around and the sense of it just these kind of hegemonies that just go on it's not the same it doesn't feel experimental i think this might be a

52:37Richard Osman:chart issue rather than a culture issue is what i was saying so i love the charts and i fetishize the charts and i look at it every week and as i say this amazing blog chart watch if you're like me it's great it's full of amazing little facts and and where the charts are going but if you forget the charts which most people do actually the amount of music and the quality of music and the diversity of music is kind of it's kind of never been better this is what people are

53:06Marina Hyde:actually listen what most people are listening to and that's why the charts even though they seem an antiquated concept are not because it is actually quite interesting to find out what most people are listening to and so even though there is all this other stuff out there there is a sense of hegemony at the top.

53:24Richard Osman:Yeah, but that's just popular culture, isn't it?

53:25Marina Hyde:Well, I don't think it has always been, actually. I think that it has felt much more dynamic. And I actually think that, as I say, something like gaming or visual arts, where you do think there is a dynamism, you feel less of that in pop.

53:36Richard Osman:Yeah, maybe. I just think we live in sort of one of the glory eras of pop music. That's for sure. So we probably don't live in the glory eras of new, young, cool bands playing in small venues, which is a shame, because that's what I grew up with. but I definitely think we're living in a golden age of pop music. I will, to bang a drum, I've banged many times before, 19 of the top 20 are solo artists.

53:59Marina Hyde:Yes.

54:00Richard Osman:There's only one band in the top 20, and that's the Italian house band, Milky. So, you know, that's the charts for you. But I know it's geeky. I'm aware it's geeky. I thought that people maybe don't know. ACR and the fact you only love those three songs in the chart at any given time explain a lot of, they're desperately trying to unclog the charts. It is almost impossible. I'm just too Fleetwood Mac Tracks in the top 100 I mean you know Come on You know I like Fleetwood Mac And I cannot lie

54:27Marina Hyde:No one's saying You don't like Fleetwood Mac

54:29Richard Osman:Any recommendations this week?

54:30Marina Hyde:Yes I have got I would love to recommend A new novel Which is out On Tuesday This Tuesday Look What You Made Me Do By John Lanchester Who wrote Capital He writes lots of novels And also a brilliant Sort of essayist It's gone Entertainment angle Richard It's about Okay A recent widow Is forced to sort of excavate her marriage after the the hit tv show of the year like the one show that everyone's up everyone's talking about appears to be completely based on her marriage and it is a black comedy about intergenerational resentment and loathing i would say yeah boomers v millennials it anyway it's it's funny it's got it's it's really good so i would recommend that look what you made me do by john lanchester which is out today i'm going to recommend two home renovation

55:21Richard Osman:shows both on iplayer um one is the alan car amanda holden renovation shows this one is the greek one they're so brilliant i think they are the best of alan car and the best of amanda holden at the same time they're so delightful in these shows you genuinely see something about them and their relationship is delightful and they're doing up a house but i mean that's uh that's that's by the by on it there's so many laughs in in that show i think alan and amanda's greek adventure but also if you enjoy designing hebrides which i've talked about before banjo who started on interior design masters with alan carr it all comes together this is like my version of harry styles and louis thompson he and his husband roe are doing up a hotel on a tiny island called ulva which is just off mull and it's really really really beautifully made and their relationship is is lovely it's called banjo and rose grand hotel i think and it's just really a very very charming look at island life again they're doing it up a house i mean that's absolutely fine but it's a really really lovely bit of television so alan and amanda's greek adventure and banjo and rose grand island hotel my recommendations for the week but i will also be reading that john lanchester

56:29Marina Hyde:novel what was it called again look what you made me do look that's a good title as well look what

56:33Richard Osman:you made me do right we are back on thursday yes our q a is with tim davy the outgoing director

56:42Marina Hyde:General of the BBC which promises to be extremely interesting.

56:46Richard Osman:You've sent in some genuinely brilliant questions. I'm very proud of you all. There were some really good questions there. Really good questions.

56:53Marina Hyde:And our bonus episode this week is on the village people who 50 % of the band appear to think is a straight band and has only ever been a straight band and 50 % of the band think it's a gay band.

57:07Richard Osman:It's a really good it's such a fascinating story.

57:11Marina Hyde:Anyway, you can join as a member, therestorsentertainment.com. Otherwise, we'll see you on Thursday.

57:16Richard Osman:See you on Thursday, everyone.

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