The MasterChef Disaster - What Happens Next?

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1:32Hello and welcome to this standalone Q &A episode of The Restless Entertainment. I'm Marina Hyde. And I'm Richard Arden. Well done for studiously avoiding the term emergency podcast. It is a standalone podcast about a developing news event, isn't it Richard? And specifically, it's been another great week for men in television. We are talking about MasterChef and the firing of John Turode and Greg Wallace. And we're doing it because we had so many questions. So we're leaving our regular Q &A thing as it is, as a MasterChef free zone. But we're going to answer all your questions about MasterChef on this one.

2:07We've spoken to a lot of people involved on a lot of sides of this particular issue. So hopefully we have some interesting information. If you've mercifully been cryogenically cocooned from this story, which many people chose to be, what happened is that a number of accusations were made about greg wallace and there's been a long investigation by an independent law firm lewis silken into allegations about what happened on the set of masterchef we already know that greg wallace has been fired we now have discovered this week that john to road his co-presenter is not returning he says he's been sacked and that nobody at the BBC told him and that...

2:55More on that later, by the way. More on that later. And that they also offered him a chance to leave by saying he was having, you know, it was a mental health issue and therefore he could sort of resign without it being a sacking. But the accusations against him are for using racist language. And yes, maybe begin with a question from Angela Gledo, who says, when allegations have been upheld, how do they reach that decision? Just as a sidebar, I think what Angela's saying you know you keep reading these stories allegations have been upheld against john john jordan greg wallace she says does more than one person have to say it happened what about all the allegations not upheld is it because no other person corroborated the allegation yeah so listen this is not a court process no one's going to go to jail it's a process where banaget and the bbc have to make themselves certain of what happened and didn't happen have to make themselves as certain as they possibly can be so they can then act on what's happened and there are all sorts of allegations.

3:51Angela is absolutely right. If an allegation is one person's word against another, difficult to uphold it. You might believe the person, you might absolutely go, I genuinely believe that happened, but we can't prove it. So we can't include that in our upheld things. If, as you say, things are corroborated, it comes from more than one source, it happened publicly, so it comes from a lot more than one source. If it was documented at the time. Or if somebody said to somebody, I've just gone into his dressing room and he doesn't have any trousers on and he knew I was coming in. Then if you've said that to somebody at the time, then they can say, did you say that?

4:28So you're trying to do this sort of as much as possible 360 degree process where you're getting all the different. So you're trying to be fair to the people being investigated, of course, because, you know, things may not be true. But you're also trying to be fair to the people who are making the allegations. and sometimes it's the weight of allegations make you investigate because a lot of people are saying the same thing you have to investigate but when you are investigating by and large you have to be as certain as you possibly can be knowing that it could be lawsuits and all sorts of things coming afterwards you have to be as certain as you can be that you can release a report saying we believe that these things happen these are the things that we have upheld and these are the reasons this person is being fired because that person can always counter sue for wrongful dismissal or something like that so you need to have these this is you know this it's a it's it's a sort of employment law so in terms of the john to road thing which was allegations of using racist language uh john to road says i i don't recall it i don't believe it happened he said but the people who've gone through that report and if talking to the people who are there at the time do believe it happened and by the way there's all sorts of things that weren't upheld because they couldn't say for certain they believed it happened but you know on this particular occasion is not woke gone mad you know he used i think probably the worst racial slur there is and they found that to be substantively true they found evidence that they were happy with that that was true he is saying i definitely didn't do it i certainly can't remember it but that one was upheld and there may be further non-upheld but lying on the record accusations in the same area The key thing about this is we're recording this on a Wednesday, and more is going to come out on this story.

6:11More people are going to come out and give their version of what happened on this story. The BBC and Banerjee, who are the production company, make MasterChef, have found enough evidence that they can go public and say, we believe these things. Feel free to sue us if you think you can convince people that it didn't happen. And so they're not going public with the things they're thinking, oh, we just heard this, but we can't really corroborate it. They're going public with the things that they go, we believe this can stand up in a court of all. We believe we have the evidence. We believe we have the people who've witnessed it, who are happy to testify.

6:46And so, yes, if it is upheld. It's worth saying that there are a huge number of allegations. There were dozens of allegations that were upheld against Greg Wallace. Yes. My understanding is this is the only one that's been officially upheld. upheld doesn't mean it'll be the only one that will be officially upheld but for now this was uh the only one that's officially upheld it was it was serious enough that as an organization as the bbc and if i were working at banerjay i would not be comfortable with that person working on a production that i was on and so as you say they um you know i think they took john to road aside this is my understanding of uh the whole situation and said we believe that this happened we believe that you use this language.

7:28He denied it. They said to him, whether this is the BBC or Banerjee, but it was said to him, we will accept if you want to take a year off, you have to do a mandatory training course to understand and accept that this is not something we particularly want in our workplace. And everyone listening to this works in places and you know occasionally there's toxicity and it's you know it's it's not great to be around so they said you can take a uh you can take a year off you do a course uh that was denied that was said no of course i'm not going to do that i didn't do this in the first place anyway so why would i ever do this um they then make the decision that they can't go forward with the uh with any new series of masterchef without him and again john to road i think in in in the sun said a couple of things he said he said the first i knew about it was I read it in the papers and that my understanding is that's not true the first thing he knew about it was when he was told it and the other thing he said was the BBC said um why don't you just say that um you're going to quit because of mental health that was in the sun I think and that definitive I've rarely heard a more vehement denial from everyone involved that that conversation didn't that certainly didn't happen you know it was the only conversation was we believe this happened we will give you a second chance at lifeline which is you take a year you take a series off you go and do something talk to people who maybe persuade you that this is not the way to act in a certain workplace and he said he was not prepared to do that that's my understanding of the situation from speaking to lots of various people involved in this and we are going to hear more from everyone in this, I suspect, in the next few days.

9:14I'm sure we'll hear more from John Taroad. I'm sure we'll hear more from Banerjee and the BBC. But that seems to be, the BBC and Banerjee are very comfortable that they're in a legally fairly watertight position that this thing happened and they can defend the evidence they have that it happened. John Taroad is denying it absolutely. He said it definitely didn't happen. And that's something for, I suspect, some sort of different court of law or for the next week or so, the court of public opinion and the court of Instagram. Yeah, I don't think you'd be massively looking forward to the Sunday papers if you were either of those two guys.

9:46But what they've each tried to do, just talking around this really, I suppose, is that they've each tried to get out in front of it by thinking, if I do a step, I mean, I would have thought after Greg Wallace's quite slightly idiosyncratic five-page Instagram statement that John Taroad would think, maybe I'll just go about this a different way but apparently not apparently he's taken a very similar route yes he listen he hasn't suggested that autism caused him to use a racial slur but um so he's learned something still a day after the sundays to come up with a defense we've had lots of questions as well about how was this allowed to go on what was the atmosphere um on that set and i think we spoke before when we spoke about greg is this is a show that was a big hit for the bbc it's a show that quite quickly on TV shows, things become quite a closed shop and that the presenters often can be at the head of that closed shop.

10:45The presenters are sometimes, you know, exec producer or a series producer. I spoke to somebody who spoke to Greg Wallace in 2017, I think, when some of the first allegations came out. And this person said, I said to Greg, every single thing that happens on a production comes from the top and you are the top so this is the culture of this production is coming from you uh and interestingly since that discussion i think only one of the complaints that was upheld was after that time so almost all of them were before that time someone came in and said to him this this is not acceptable this is not how we run a television program this is not how you run any sort of workplace and he seemed to have some sort of understanding of that but it if you have two presenters and you have the same production team and you have a hit show and I said before that you know the BBC after 10 series or something is not on set that's the one of the absolute key things to remember if you're doing something like a house of games someone might come up once a series because they know it's properly run so the oversight is not particularly there from the BBC and there are very few productions who would want that oversight is the truth but it does mean that cultures can prevail and that seems to be what's happened here if uh you know if we look at all these allegations and you know it is it's that mix between the sort of total um oh i'm a cheeky greengrocer and i don't believe in hierarchies but equally it's such a i mean i can't even believe I'm going to say this, but it's such a power move to answer the door with no trousers on.

12:28Yes. And so it's that mix between those two things. And there's a certain type of, I don't want to say man, but certain type of presenter who just doesn't quite understand, or deliberately doesn't understand. What I think is interesting in the case of these two is there was supposed to be that kind of, you know, double act. They were slightly reminded me, I think, of a sort of, you know, pair of organized crime gangsters. the gangsters and they would be the animal and the clever one. Yeah. And maybe they were brothers perhaps. And, you know, John DeRodis always looked like he was going to say, you know, unfortunately, my brother has a very bad temper.

13:05I should not like him to lose it with you today. Yesterday, he had cause to get annoyed. And then Greg Wallace would be just standing there with a death stare. A bit of shame if something happened to those meringues, wouldn't it? Exactly. and yet it's slightly funny how it very similar those kind of moves where they it's it's an excess of power and it's not an understanding of your position of responsibility um and by the way there's very few people almost no one saying this ought to this changed my life i couldn't believe what happened to me this is the most disgraceful thing that's ever happened but there's plenty of people going i don't want to work in this environment and if you run a tv company if you run a tv show it's entertainment that's all it is you're not saving lives on on a war zone it's entertainment and if you are being told time and time again i am uncomfortable working in this environment then you get a different presenter there's no that's not wokery that is not you can't say anything anymore that is just anyone listening to this who works in works in a particular workplace that's you know if someone does it if they're warned and they do it again but it's the sense that there might be a critical mass and that finally you don't have to accept it anymore and that maybe lots of other productions will learn something from this particular furor and things will get better across the industry they're not being thrown in prison they're simply being told it's probably best if you don't present a flagship BBC television program anymore but it's also amazing how so much of this type of behavior comes because and people believe themselves to be completely indispensable to a show in which challenge me on this if you like the format is the star the end Masterchef works all around the world it works in loads of different formats Masterchef goes large it worked in the original studio version of it which was Lloyd Grossman you know all Masterchef works and works and works and works they don't even particularly have a chemistry on that show there's nothing when you're watching that show you're not going my god these it's like watching mel and sue there's there's not you know they have that they but they have that thing that i just described i they also have the weirdness of the relationship it was also so weird like you know it would always be like i love john so much he's my best man even after john droid had been his best man he said we're not friends it's just like there's something really odd is going on here and so it's proved we must go on to another question next one comes from stew hosker who says what will the bbc do with previously filmed series of masterchef that are still due to air now that greg wallace and john terode have been sacked following the report's findings yeah so this i can tell you exactly what's going to happen with there's three different series there's masterchef the professionals which is safe because it's marcus waring and monica galetti um you then have celebrity one and the celebrity one has been filmed but not due to go till Christmas so the BBC don't have to make a decision about that for now it is John Turode and it's Grace Dent yeah so no decision has been made but the main one is the is the big main series and as people probably know it was presented by John and Greg I think as they got to the semi-final stages uh the allegations about Greg came out and they replaced him with Anna Hall from the semi-finals none of this is Ed we should just reiterate so they've got this thing in the can basically but can't yeah and Anna's that wonderful Irish chef he's brilliant on everything the feeling at the BBC and the feeling at Banerjee, having talked to everyone who has been on that show, is they would like to show it.

16:11Because they literally, they've spoken to, I think, pretty much every single contestant. The contestants are saying, we would be gutted if this doesn't go out. You know, it's been a huge deal for what they've done. You know, going into MasterChef, it makes careers as well. Completely. How many of them have ended up opening restaurants, have a career from it? And it's a huge challenge and it goes on for a long time. and absolutely their skills should be showcased, I think. So I think, well, I'd be fairly confident in saying that the current plan is to show that series. So that show, because again, it's due on quite soon.

16:45So that's a decision they have to make quickly. They've made the decision. They're looking at the contestants. What would the contestants like to happen? And the contestants have said, we would like it to go on air. And if you don't want the BBC to waste money, this is like obviously multi-million pounds. yes we had quite a lot of questions as well about about who carries the can for the cost if who carries the can for the cost if um these programs are shelved and it's actually a slightly tricky one this because normally you would have insurance which says if something happens in between um a show being recorded and the show going out uh the insurance would cover it if there's no way of showing it however if we're still in doubt as to culpability over why it's been cancelled or why it's been canned it is almost impossible to get an answer from anyone from anyone people have been in this situation before as to who would pay for that because this is a substantial amount of money a whole series of uh master chef you know it's in it's it's in the millions my instinct would be that banner j the production company would have to carry quite a lot of those costs because i don't think the insurers will the bbc would carry some of those costs as well and i think that i don't think that enters in by the way to the um decision to show that main series but that just technical thing for people who are interested in in that normally if the insurance don't pay then the channel and the production company will team up but furthermore the bbc would have to pull up something else in the schedule to replace it and then they've got another whole so it ends up being very expensive one way or another yeah it really does for them but yeah so so celebrity one we wait and see what else comes out the uh the master chef professionals that's absolutely fine and the uh regular one the civilian one i think is is is going to be shown which will be interesting uh but it's as i say and they've they've they've done that because of the every single contestant i this i could be uh proved wrong here there might be one who says no but every contestant they're speaking to is saying we would love this show to go ahead they completely want it to go ahead um and you can and you can see why i suppose we have to say something slightly on the kind of wider bbc thing which is that it's obviously coming as always people always say there's a moment in every single story about the bb that even involves the bbc where it just becomes a sort of referendum on the bbc and there's obviously been various controversies surrounding the gaza coverage and and sort of various other things and there's a sort of sense which i don't think should exist in an organisation of such enormity, which is doing so many different things.

19:12Obviously, what happens on a cooking show really does have very little at all to do with what happens in terms of Gaza documentary coverage and so on. But there is always a point where it just becomes something you can say, oh, and you know, this, now the BBC is in a crisis. Yeah. And to that, I would say, you know, the old thing of the signal and the noise, which is there is a huge amount of noise here, a huge amount of noise and used as a stick to beat all sorts of people with and you know i absolutely get it but what is the signal what has actually happened and it is two men have behaved if we believe the allegations unacceptably in the workplace they have been warned they have been given opportunities to redeem themselves they have not taken those opportunities and so therefore on this particular thing they are freelance people and so the company behind it have gone we would rather you didn't do that that is all that has happened here and as you say nobody here is saying this traumatized me this ruined my life they're saying it was unacceptable they're not alleging criminality or anything like that yeah and again pretty much every workspace everyone knows a story about things like this that happens someone gets you know you get spoken to you maybe you change your behavior if you don't change your behavior you're out i mean that's but because it's the bbc because it's television because it's a big story it's suddenly this enormous thing and nobody is bigger than the format and that that's another question that we have had what's the future of the brand will it be rested again no there's no there's no there's absolutely no need to rest it the master chef is I cannot begin to tell you how profitable MasterChef is around the world.

20:36It's huge in pretty much every territory. It's a behemoth around the world. It is a great show for the BBC. As I say, it's not Anton Deck presenting this. No. You know, it's not, you know, suddenly the Saturday Night Takeaway has to be presented by Addison Hammond and Dermott, although they would do a great job. That would do another job. They would do a great job. But this is not the Greg Wallace, John Turow show. It's MasterChef. It's the chef's show. So this is definitively a brand that will keep going and going and going, go from strength to strength. And there's so many great food presenters.

21:10Matt Tebert is now doing stuff on the professionals one, for example. He'd be an amazing host for it. You know, Grace Dent hosted half of the Celebrity One, whether we see that or not. But obviously, she can continue to present the Celebrity One very, very easily. So, no, you've got three series a year, and it will absolutely sail on MasterChef. I mean, it'll be under a microscope, that's for sure, but it will sail on. So that wasn't an emergency podcast. It was a standalone podcast on a developing live news event. Exactly. And there will be more to come on this at the weekend, I suspect. Yes.

21:47But that's all the information we have at the moment. And I hope there was some useful info in there. Thank you very much. And tomorrow we will return to regular service with our Q &A episode. MasterChef Free Zone. Vos chef Rizén. See you tomorrow. See you tomorrow.